A Solution To the Fake Tanking Issue.

Lixiviant

With some of the trolls in this game? Really BAD idea.

Pevey

The people who say they want this would be shocked if something like it were ever implemented.

Imagine their surprise when they learn the majority of ESO players actually WANT super fast random normals and normal pledges and UPVOTE capable "fake tanks" who can set a quick pace and get the job done and DOWNVOTE the naysayers who jump ship or whine the whole dungeon about "fake tanks" who don't have 50k health and "fake healers" who let the dps die while they are standing in red doing 5k dps. IMO, the ratings from this sort of feature would not turn out the way some people seem to think they would.

As to actual fake tanks who cannot seem to block or roll or use a taunt...I hate those, too. Which is why I choose to tank myself. Everyone has that option, and if more people did it, the queues would go faster. You don't need a full-blown vet trial tank setup to tank a normal dungeon. If you can do vma, then you can solo/tank a normal dungeon. Tip: You can light attack, use a skill, and block all in the same GCD. You can roll dodge. It is a valid tanking maneuver and not a sign of a fake tank as I have seen some people claim in the forums. People who have tanked vet trials know that roll dodge is a viable tanking strategy for some blows. You roll and then move back into position. And if any of the above seems too intimating or you just don't want to put forth the effort, then you really can't complain that you don't like the quality of the tanks you are seeing in group finder or how long it takes to queue as dps.

ResidentContrarian

If a reputation system existed in the game and I got bad rep, why would I tank for anyone?

It's not like it's fun.

It's funny how all the "solutions" manage to alienate REAL tanks.

Also, funny that nearly everywhere that a tank is needed, a group could have ran with another DPS if they were "good" enough due to the nature of the game being one big DPS race in PvE.

pelle412

These kind of threads never seem to stop. If this was something ZoS had an interest in doing something about it would have been done 5 years ago. There are two things you can do, 1) be a tank yourself, or 2) form your own groups. Outside of this, you get what you get.

Dracane

Fake tanks are really just the infamous start of the story. I personally have an infinitely larger gripe with utterly incapable healers/supports and grotesque damage dealers. Proving grounds can be a solution, where you can unlock your right to join normal dungeons by fullfilling a certain a performance and for veteran by being better.

Zos would never discriminate plebs like this though. I don't think anything will ever be done about these issues.

Fi'yra

Everyone plays the game differently.

You have options to either remove them from the group or yourself.

Thretion

"Pevey wrote: »

the majority of ESO players actually WANT

You are so sure of it. So you have independent statistics?

Pevey

Thretion wrote: »

"Pevey wrote: »

the majority of ESO players actually WANT

You are so sure of it. So you have independent statistics?

No. As I say later: "IMO, the ratings from this sort of feature would not turn out the way some people seem to think they would." [emphasis added]

I think it would be very entertaining to find out. I can imagine this forum a few months after the rating launched. Instead of complaining about fake tanks, those same ppl would be complaining that they can no longer do dungeons because their own rating is so bad. No one will stay in a group with them. They get kicked and replaced immediatly.

BloodMagicLord

There is no "fake tank issue" .

The group finder is supposed to quickly find a group for people who don't want or don't have time to organize one themselves. Being a "fake tank" makes this process faster, and in a lot of the dungeons that do not require a tank it makes the run go faster as well. If your team is dying then you have the option to vote kick the "fake tank".

You also have the option to utilize zone chat or guilds to put together a group that is more to your liking.

The vote system idea is terrible and will absolutely be misused with unintended consequences. What if a new player who is not very good at his role gets landed in a bunch of toxic groups who downvote him every time? Then after that, according to your explanation of how the system will work, he will have a bad rating so even if he gets better at the game he's gonna get kicked on dungeon start every time because he has a bad rating.

People get reported for stupid reasons and it is therefore logical to assume that people will be downvoted for stupid reasons also.

It seems to me that in a lot of cases this "fake tank issue" has got more to do with one of two things:
- a bizarre obsession with upholding the "holy trinity" of MMO roles
- An irrational dislike of perceived "toxic endgame" players.

WitchyWarrior

So kinda what Uber does?

Thretion

Pevey wrote: »

Instead of complaining about fake tanks, those same ppl would be complaining that they can no longer do dungeons because their own rating is so bad.

I completely agree. The idea with statistics will not work correctly. Dota 2 is a complete confirmation of this. But fake tanks are a problem, even in a normal dungeon.

El_Borracho

Yelp for tanks. No thank you

joerginger

MakoRuu wrote: »

The Solution is a Reputation System.

No!

Pevey

Thretion wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

Instead of complaining about fake tanks, those same ppl would be complaining that they can no longer do dungeons because their own rating is so bad.

I completely agree. The idea with statistics will not work correctly. Dota 2 is a complete confirmation of this. But fake tanks are a problem, even in a normal dungeon.

I think the fundamental problem is a mismatch between the huge normal dungeon demand because of random daily rewards vs the amount of normal dungeons a fully-specced, fully-competent tank would naturally want to run...which is approximately zero.

Most tanks I know who tank vet 4-man runs and vet trials would never, ever queue to tank a normal dungeon in a full-blown tank setup. Usually tanks are very experienced end-game players. They almost always are capable of decent dps themselves, sometimes top-tier dps. So they would never take the chance of queing as a 0-damage tank in GF with 3 ppl they don't know. They don't want to spectate while the 10k group dps slowly burns through a 30 minute spindle run. This doesn't mean they are toxic. That is just basic human level of self-interest.

For gear, these players often need transmutes just like everyone else, so they do RNDs. But they do it with a dps build. They may even be among the players some people call fake tanks. Just like DPS, tanking is not just a build. It is a skillset. And good tanks know they don't need to bring a nuclear bomb to a knife fight. If you can tank a vet trial, you can tank a normal dungeon in a light/medium armor dps build with relative ease, using the exact same tanking skillset.

There are truly fake tanks who queue with absolutely no tank skills whatsoever. The root of the problem is that competent tanks have better things to do than queue with no damage on their bar just to help out random players they don't know. Their incentive is to bring some dps to the fight and get in and get out and move on to content that actually challenges them as a tank.

The solution is not to make normal dungeons harder to tank. That would just compound the problem as the intimidation factor would result in fewer and fewer new tanks over time. Brand new tanks need a place to start. But then they either quickly decide that tanking is not for them or they move on to more challenging content where good tanks are actually needed.

I am of the opinion that I do not deserve a tank that meets my arbitrary specifications every time I want to do a normal dungeon. I don't think it is reasonable for me to expect that other people will be that altruistic. People who meet the qualifications some people lay out for being a "real" tank have far better things they could be doing in-game with their time.

Artim_X

No. One time when I queued for City of Ash 2 on my tank setup, someone I didn't even know from PvP land started complaining about me in chat, criticizing my playstyle, and saying that I'm not a tank.

Like God forbid the way someone plays in one content is different somewhere else. I tanked hardmode out of spite and left after saying tyfg. Even if I did my role a person like this will probably rate me bad.

A reputation system just won't work.

Scarr

When you que up for a role, the game should evaluate your current gear/skills/stats and measure them against a minimum cutoff. If your not up to snuff, you don't get the option to que as a certain class.

Just because you want to play a sweaty parse monkey and queue as a tank, does not mean you deserve to get into a group as a tank.

Same for healers, and DPS.

The game is simple enough to be able to program a script to evaluate a player to match key values for the role they are trying to fill.

When you get accepted to a Random Group que, you can no longer change gear, skills, champion points.

probo11

The only reason why there are "fake tanks" is that there are way too many fake dds. So imo we should fix it at the orgin and just make a checklist for dds like: normal gear setups, decent light attack weaving and normal skills on their bar.

TPishek

Is fake tanking even a thing outside of normal dungeons were it doesn't matter in the slightest?

Scarr

As a simple example.

Equipped Weapons = Shield/1Hander, or Icestaff = Tank
Equipped Weapons = DualWield, or Bow, or 2Hander, or Firestaff, or Lightning Staff = DPS
Equipped Weapons = Restoration Staff = Healer

That would be ONE of many simple checks, if a player trying to que meets enough checks, then they are role eligible. Again though, when you try to que for a role, your gear and skills become locked while you are in the que.

Class = Templar, Necro, Warden = Healer
Class = DK, Necro, Templar = Tank
Class = Sorc, NB, = DPS

Gearset = DPS or Stam/Mag = DPS
Gearset = Block or Health = Tank
Gearset = Heal or Stam/Mag = Healer

Each Slotted Skills = points toward role qualification.

Galiferno

"Fake DPS" is obviously a loaded term, but it gets the point across well from support players: some of us won't solo queue for randoms because we don't want be to stuck in dungeons with DPS who can't hit above 10k when we're so used to playing with good players. It's boring and painful so sit through. And I don't want to sit through a DPS queue so I only queue for random vets and only with friends so it's more fun than normal and we finish quicker than most pug groups can on normal. Don't get me wrong, I have total sympathy for new players who are just getting started and needed to learn the game, farm their gear, etc, and I have nothing but hope and support for them, but too many times I've been matched up with people over cp 1500, noticed DPS was low, taken a log, and seen travesties when I look at their gear and skills(and this is on vet where their low dps is a bigger problem). Sorry, but some supports just don't want to risk that and prolong what should be a short dungeon into a marathon.

ZeroDPS

MakoRuu wrote: »

The Solution is a Reputation System.

Which is just my idea and opinion. Please leave input on how to improve it, or comments if you disagree or agree.

At the end of the match, you vote good or bad on a person depending on their performance and their role. You place a cool down on it so that you can't vote for that same person multiple times a day.

Fake tanks would have an extremely low reputation in the red, which would reduce the rewards they get from the Daily. This would be an incentive for them not to abuse the dungeon finder, and it would help your group see "Oh, this person is a fake tank/healer, and we should vote to kick them."

The penalties would be something like -

-Reduced EXP
-Reduced Drop Rate
-Reduced Transmute Crystals
-Debuffed Stats while in the dungeon

In order to keep people from abusing it, you would need to complete an activity with this person to get to vote. This way, you wouldn't have a guild just spam voting on a person to drive their rep down. And with the cool down, you yourself couldn't do it again for 20 -24 hours on THAT person. And them leaving the dungeon doesn't stop you from voting. The window would stay up for you until you choose an option.

Example

You finish Cradle of Shadows, a NB was AWESOME! So they get an upvote to Rep.

The healer was new, but they tried super hard, so they get an upvote.

You don't get to vote on yourself, but you did your best and you filled your DPS role to the best of your abilities, and were doing decent damage. You got an upvote from 3/4 people.

Fake tank, was a Necro in light armor with two destroy staves, constantly dying, never pulled aggro, ignored Group chat, left immediately after the boss was killed. Gets a downvote from 3/4 (the new player doesn't know the system well enough to decide and just leaves.)

@MakoRuu @Rishikesa108 we can have another system. Instead of giving a mark for tanking, we can have automatic system which gives a rank to all players, tank heal and dd, depending:
1. Time taken to complete the dungeon(overall group performance)
2. Player who has taken most damage + damage compared to other team members
3. Healing done by particular player
4. Damage done by particular player
5. And some other analytics

These will help to understand who was who and how well they done

TPishek

I would hate it if they forced us to actually be specific roles. I like having the option to bring 4 DPS to random normal and get them done quickly.

Agenericname

Scarr wrote: »

As a simple example.

Equipped Weapons = Shield/1Hander, or Icestaff = Tank
Equipped Weapons = DualWield, or Bow, or 2Hander, or Firestaff, or Lightning Staff = DPS
Equipped Weapons = Restoration Staff = Healer

That would be ONE of many simple checks, if a player trying to que meets enough checks, then they are role eligible. Again though, when you try to que for a role, your gear and skills become locked while you are in the que.

Class = Templar, Necro, Warden = Healer
Class = DK, Necro, Templar = Tank
Class = Sorc, NB, = DPS

Gearset = DPS or Stam/Mag = DPS
Gearset = Block or Health = Tank
Gearset = Heal or Stam/Mag = Healer

Each Slotted Skills = points toward role qualification.

I tank, as in a real tank. I change my gear and my abilities quite often.

Im not sure this would change much for fake tanks.

Fake tanks are a problem in normal dungeons. They're a lot more rare in vet. Theres more to this game than random normals.

This is also an issue that effects DPS and healers. As a tank, Im immune to fake tanks. So why should we implement a rule set for a problem that only really effects normal dungeons and would impact real tanks in a negative way?

Marginis

Would be better to allow upvotes for good behavior, and then just group people with others who have similar upvote numbers.

No real way to abuse the system, it encourages effort be put into good behavior instead of just punishing bad behavior, and it does the same or more to help good players avoid fake tanks and other trolls.

ankeor

As a tank my enjoyment in doing the dungeon content is based on how good the group dps is.
I don't want to queue for dungeons because of the amount fake-useless dd's.
I am not saying new or low cp players who are actually trying. I mean the light attack spammers, 80%hp execute users, resto front bar dd's with 1700cp for example.

People queue as fake tanks becuase there are no real tanks who queue for dungeons.
And real tanks don't queue because of terrible dd's

Average casual dds in this game make content run very boring for the tank.
New tanks quit the role soon because it is boring, veteran tanks don't want to queue ever.
When there are no tanks in the queue someone decides "Maybe I should queue as tank" after 45 min of waiting.
And behold! Fake tanks are problem!
Jeez.

Mr_Stach

Have a Trinity Queue and an all DPS Chad Carries Queue. Easy peasy

Amottica

Such a voting system is easily manipulated and can be used to troll. People can downvote other players just because they feel they do not play as well as they think they should have even though they asked for a random group of players to start with.

In the end, a lot of damage dealers will get downvoted because of their paltry damage and healers will get punished because they went 50/50 instead of providing every possible buff to the group. This just helps to illustrate how problematic such a system would be.

It is generally a bad idea for developers to invoke long-term penalties on players. That is a good way to reduce the player base which reduces revenue. Not good business.

Players already have the means to reduce the XP of fake tanks and handily deliver a strong punishment by vote kicking them. That is the second-best thing players can do to avoid fake tanks. The best is the forming of the group themselves.

Kusto

Scarr wrote: »

As a simple example.

Equipped Weapons = Shield/1Hander, or Icestaff = Tank
Equipped Weapons = DualWield, or Bow, or 2Hander, or Firestaff, or Lightning Staff = DPS
Equipped Weapons = Restoration Staff = Healer

That would be ONE of many simple checks, if a player trying to que meets enough checks, then they are role eligible. Again though, when you try to que for a role, your gear and skills become locked while you are in the que.

Class = Templar, Necro, Warden = Healer
Class = DK, Necro, Templar = Tank
Class = Sorc, NB, = DPS

Gearset = DPS or Stam/Mag = DPS
Gearset = Block or Health = Tank
Gearset = Heal or Stam/Mag = Healer

Each Slotted Skills = points toward role qualification.

This here is exactly why there should never be any rep system. According to this, you would down vote me because im a dk healer? Or maybe stamden healer without resto? Also I main magden dps, use dual ice staffs, parse 90k+ but not viable for dungeons right?

I have "fake" tanked randoms for years and never had any complaints or kicks. Normal dungeons simply don't need 40k+ hp heavy armor build. Dps with 20k hp in light armor is enough even for normal dlcs and base vets. Just slot inner fire.

Amottica

Scarr wrote: »

As a simple example.

Equipped Weapons = Shield/1Hander, or Icestaff = Tank
Equipped Weapons = DualWield, or Bow, or 2Hander, or Firestaff, or Lightning Staff = DPS
Equipped Weapons = Restoration Staff = Healer

That would be ONE of many simple checks, if a player trying to que meets enough checks, then they are role eligible. Again though, when you try to que for a role, your gear and skills become locked while you are in the que.

Class = Templar, Necro, Warden = Healer
Class = DK, Necro, Templar = Tank
Class = Sorc, NB, = DPS

Gearset = DPS or Stam/Mag = DPS
Gearset = Block or Health = Tank
Gearset = Heal or Stam/Mag = Healer

Each Slotted Skills = points toward role qualification.

This is a great example of the problems with trying to prevent fake tanks using the game itself.

What is suggested as a requirement to be a tank is not at all a requirement for tanking in ESO since someone can taunt without a sword and board or an ice staff. It forces people to play a certain way that is not relevant to the game's design.

Same with the healing staff as it is very possible for a DD to have an staff on one bar.

Even more so, a healer is not required to have a rStaff on any bar. A good healer will have a dStaff on one bar and a templar can heal a dungeon easily without an rStaff at all.

With a game that offers so much freedom it is a bad direction to force people to play the way we want them to. We might as take a step backward to the archaic designs of WoW and FF14 and force people to choose from various templates for both their role and what kind of damage build they will use.

I for one am glad Zenimax chose to free us from such restrictions. If someone has specific requirements for their tanks, healers, and damage dealers as is presented in the quote above they are able to form their own group.

Militan1404

Scarr wrote: »

When you que up for a role, the game should evaluate your current gear/skills/stats and measure them against a minimum cutoff. If your not up to snuff, you don't get the option to que as a certain class.

Just because you want to play a sweaty parse monkey and queue as a tank, does not mean you deserve to get into a group as a tank.

Same for healers, and DPS.

The game is simple enough to be able to program a script to evaluate a player to match key values for the role they are trying to fill.

When you get accepted to a Random Group que, you can no longer change gear, skills, champion points.

Then 90% of the dds couldnt use group finder, thats bad buisnes. And
goes against the «play as you want, how you want» motto the game is advertising all the time.