A Solution To the Fake Tanking Issue.

MakoRuu

The Solution is a Reputation System.

Which is just my idea and opinion. Please leave input on how to improve it, or comments if you disagree or agree.

At the end of the match, you vote good or bad on a person depending on their performance and their role. You place a cool down on it so that you can't vote for that same person multiple times a day.

Fake tanks would have an extremely low reputation in the red, which would reduce the rewards they get from the Daily. This would be an incentive for them not to abuse the dungeon finder, and it would help your group see "Oh, this person is a fake tank/healer, and we should vote to kick them."

The penalties would be something like -

-Reduced EXP
-Reduced Drop Rate
-Reduced Transmute Crystals
-Debuffed Stats while in the dungeon

In order to keep people from abusing it, you would need to complete an activity with this person to get to vote. This way, you wouldn't have a guild just spam voting on a person to drive their rep down. And with the cool down, you yourself couldn't do it again for 20 -24 hours on THAT person. And them leaving the dungeon doesn't stop you from voting. The window would stay up for you until you choose an option.

Example

You finish Cradle of Shadows, a NB was AWESOME! So they get an upvote to Rep.

The healer was new, but they tried super hard, so they get an upvote.

You don't get to vote on yourself, but you did your best and you filled your DPS role to the best of your abilities, and were doing decent damage. You got an upvote from 3/4 people.

Fake tank, was a Necro in light armor with two destroy staves, constantly dying, never pulled aggro, ignored Group chat, left immediately after the boss was killed. Gets a downvote from 3/4 (the new player doesn't know the system well enough to decide and just leaves.)

Rishikesa108

Absolutely not. If one dislikes someone, or if there are arrogant or incorrect people, they could give negative marks even to those who do not deserve them at all. Giving people such powers, who may be trustworthy or NOT trustworthy ... is very very dangerous.

Rishikesa108

Fake tanks are a plague, but it should somehow be prevented from being able to queue without actually holding this role, for example without having a sword and shield.

DreadKnight

Nope. Too open to abuse, simple as.

MakoRuu

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

Absolutely not. If one dislikes someone, or if there are arrogant or incorrect people, they could give negative marks even to those who do not deserve them at all. Giving people such powers, who may be trustworthy or NOT trustworthy ... is very very dangerous.

The system would not JUST be for fake roles.

It would be if the person was being a negative or toxic player. So, it still remains valid.

MakoRuu

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

Fake tanks are a plague, but it should somehow be prevented from being able to queue without actually holding this role, for example without having a sword and shield.

You could just put on a sword and a shield, and a taunt on your bar, queue, and then take it off when you land in the dungeon. It would just be a few extra steps of inconvenience and not a real solution.

redspecter23

Any player sourced reputation system would be abused unfortunately. It's a great idea in theory, but trolls would have a wonderful time with it.

Mr_Stach

I'll repeat what I said in the other post. Make Fake Tanking Reportable. Zos investigates and gives a 20 minute CD for Dungeon Queues.

It will be heavily abused until everyone quits the game. Win-Win

MakoRuu

redspecter23 wrote: »

Any player sourced reputation system would be abused unfortunately. It's a great idea in theory, but trolls would have a wonderful time with it.

You're really assuming 100% of the ESO player base would just wantonly downvote people because it was funny.

You'd only get a few votes a day, per dungeon. Your reputation would rely on how many random dungeons you run. And you could only be voted on in the dungeon after you've completed it.

Not like you could just walk by someone in Belkarth and just start down voting them.

I'm surprised people are really underestimating the ESO community.

OolongSnakeTea

I think we should look at the fake-take issues as a twofold community problem, and less a mechanic fix

1. Barrier of entry
2. Reward vs effort for experienced players
3. Community Based Education


Barrier of Entry
A lot of the lack of tanking may result in that people are just afraid to tank in an action combat situation. Either because of how people have reacted to their attempts in the past, or whatever. Tanking isn't the easiest role if done in the lense of what ESO wants you to do (dodge roll, block, interupt, chain-stack and lock trash, buff and debuff). Its a lot to take in, and most just don't have the time to learn it that in dept, or are happily casual. There are tons of tank-based community sites for education, and I only hope it continues to grow to encourage more players to learn to tank in ESO.

Reward vs Effort
Right now the biggest factor of people skipping the queue is that they wanna get their transmutations done fast. Most of the time, it's a DPS that could possibly solo the dungeon and just labled themselves as a tank to get in and get out. People get dragged along for the ride- some people may loose out on a dungeon experience because of this.

BUT sometimes its jsut people who don't read interfaces options very well, and just click 'join dungeon queue' and get into it. However, this could be unlikely as the default role for a new character is infact DPS, to prevent this.

I feel if ZOS increased the rewards for veteran dungeons, and pledges- this could help reduce the fake tank frequency.

Community Based Education
People google builds, and only find sword and board builds with a destro staff. While this is fine and dandy, and fairly standard (especially for trial, veteran and hard mode content)- maybe making DPS-Tank-Hybrid builds viable and learnable would encourage more people to tank. Not everyone wants to be a sword and board kinda character. But maybe some people wanna be a war-mage, or a guardian barbarian!

More build-creators could put eyes on this hybrization option for veteran skilled players who just want to get in and out of the dungeon queue faster, but still be polite and offer taunts/debuffs/buffs as a courtesy to their group to make it a better experience for everyone involved- all while not sacrificing to much DPS, sustain and defenses.

It is very possible to be a double staff tank with the right gear as well as a 2 handed weapon tank. I've personally started to make and run them with much sucess and enjoyment to both myself and group. I acknowledge the limitations of the build and play within the content that I am comfortable to perform well in that wouldn't ruin 3 other people's fun time.

Elder Scrolls as a game is about 'playing your way', ESO is an MMO with roles and needs in particular content. The two can be married, and can work. It just take more noodle-thinking, and people to share that information, and show it can work.

It's not a quick fix, nor is it a built-in fix, but it is a better quality of life, and community-based fix we can do right now for players. It is possible, we have the means! We simply must put the right combinations of gear sets and moves together!

OBJnoob

I think the point they were trying to make is that toxic and negative players will also be the ones voting, not just getting punished. And there’s nothing to force honesty.

For me? Dead set against the idea period. I fake tank basically anytime I have to do any dungeon. I slot a taunt, yes, but I’m almost certainly not wearing heavy armor or a sword n shield.

Why do I sign up as a tank when I’m a dps? Because the que is too long. What happens if people like me decide to “be more patient and wait in line?” EVERYBODY waits longer. Every time someone fake tanks that’s two dps and one healer who can finally play.

You’re literally welcome.

redspecter23

MakoRuu wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Any player sourced reputation system would be abused unfortunately. It's a great idea in theory, but trolls would have a wonderful time with it.

You're really assuming 100% of the ESO player base would just wantonly downvote people because it was funny.

You'd only get a few votes a day, per dungeon. Your reputation would rely on how many random dungeons you run. And you could only be voted on in the dungeon after you've completed it.

Not like you could just walk by someone in Belkarth and just start down voting them.

I'm surprised people are really underestimating the ESO community.

The issue is that how a player performs is not static. It's a variable based on the group composition. If three players are zerging and one person wants to stop to do the quest, that one person could get three downvotes because they are playing differently than the rest of the group. The alternative is true. One person is going fast and three are a bit slower. The fast player gets three dings in that particular group. In this example you have players that are getting dinged not for "bad" behavior but for behavior that doesn't match up with the majority of the group. That's the sort of abuse I'd be more worried about.

In addition to that, every single player hitting that queue button would now know they are being judged the entire time. Any little mistake or even just doing something others don't like for whatever reason and you get downvoted potentially. That's a lot of stress to put on people. I'd argue that the combination of just these two situations makes for a far worse situation that fake tanking currently.

You propose a solution to a problem, but the solution might end up worse than the current problem and might not even solve it. What if the fake tank queued with 2 friends? He gets to fake tank and your attempt to vote kick gets you three dings from him and his friends.

majulook

MakoRuu wrote: »

The Solution is a Reputation System.

Which is just my idea and opinion. Please leave input on how to improve it, or comments if you disagree or agree.

At the end of the match, you vote good or bad on a person depending on their performance and their role. You place a cool down on it so that you can't vote for that same person multiple times a day.

Fake tanks would have an extremely low reputation in the red, which would reduce the rewards they get from the Daily. This would be an incentive for them not to abuse the dungeon finder, and it would help your group see "Oh, this person is a fake tank/healer, and we should vote to kick them."

The penalties would be something like -

-Reduced EXP
-Reduced Drop Rate
-Reduced Transmute Crystals
-Debuffed Stats while in the dungeon

In order to keep people from abusing it, you would need to complete an activity with this person to get to vote. This way, you wouldn't have a guild just spam voting on a person to drive their rep down. And with the cool down, you yourself couldn't do it again for 20 -24 hours on THAT person. And them leaving the dungeon doesn't stop you from voting. The window would stay up for you until you choose an option.

Example

You finish Cradle of Shadows, a NB was AWESOME! So they get an upvote to Rep.

The healer was new, but they tried super hard, so they get an upvote.

You don't get to vote on yourself, but you did your best and you filled your DPS role to the best of your abilities, and were doing decent damage. You got an upvote from 3/4 people.

Fake tank, was a Necro in light armor with two destroy staves, constantly dying, never pulled aggro, ignored Group chat, left immediately after the boss was killed. Gets a downvote from 3/4 (the new player doesn't know the system well enough to decide and just leaves.)

Why finish dungeon with them if they are so bad, and cannot do their role?

This not one of the reasons for the Vote Kick to remove those in group that is not fulfilling their role.

And if Vote Kick does not work in removing them, you have 2 options leave, or complete with group as is.

The more players just finish the dungeon with the fakers the worse its going to get.

If more players stood up and kicked out those that could not complete their role, maybe the fake roles would diminish.

ZharaX

Fake tanking can be a really annoyance, 1 player might destroy it for 3 others, taking unneccassary time and eventually a re-queu.. Then again, this is the product of the way ZoS made this system....

Dracane

As a tank, I never experience them, but also have an interest in my "craft" receiving more prestige rather than being soiled by such fools.

Like others have said; this will likely be abused. Such a system works in Dota 2, because even though some haters and enemies will report you simply because you stomp them, you meet 9 other players per match, roughly every 50 minutes and thus, the truthful reviews will outweight in the end.

In Eso, we usually do 3 dungeons max per day. So you meet 9 other players in a day perhaps. There isn't enough influx for false reviews to be rooted out.
If the review system in Eso will be a pop up "rate your tank" trolls will downvote you even though you did great. If it is a hidden system, basically nobody will look at it. Most people I meet in dungeons are driftwoods as is.

Didgerion

What is a fake tank anyway?

I often queue my DPS magsorc up as a tank, slot a taunt skill(maybe a frost staff too if it is a veteran dungeon) and see no group wipes for the run.

Would you report me in this case?

Agenericname

I found a nearly perfect way to avoid fake tanks. Be one. 99.9% of the time, you'll never encounter one.

Lets assume that they implemented a system like this. The way it works right now is I dont really see any negative drawbacks to tanking, aside from sometimes low group DPS. Theres certainly nothing that Im risking by doing it other than a few lost minutes.

If all of a sudden I risked being downvoted, even if I performed my job well, how long before I just drop the queue altogether?

OolongSnakeTea

Didgerion wrote: »

What is a fake tank anyway?

I often queue my DPS magsorc up as a tank, slot a taunt skill(maybe a frost staff too if it is a veteran dungeon) and see no group wipes for the run.

Would you report me in this case?

This is a solution, to be honest. The key being the taunt. By taunting, you are fulfilling the minimum expectation of a tank to shield the group from heavies in the trash, and the boss.

As long as you are confident in taking the hits, then its all good. I wish more people would honestly do this. 1 move (for taunt) will not break your epic gamer DPS build. And maybe a lil armor tweak if you feelin' squishy.

CoronHR

no to the voting system. trolls trolls trolls

MakoRuu

redspecter23 wrote: »

The issue is that how a player performs is not static. It's a variable based on the group composition. If three players are zerging and one person wants to stop to do the quest, that one person could get three downvotes because they are playing differently than the rest of the group. The alternative is true. One person is going fast and three are a bit slower. The fast player gets three dings in that particular group. In this example you have players that are getting dinged not for "bad" behavior but for behavior that doesn't match up with the majority of the group. That's the sort of abuse I'd be more worried about.

In addition to that, every single player hitting that queue button would now know they are being judged the entire time. Any little mistake or even just doing something others don't like for whatever reason and you get downvoted potentially. That's a lot of stress to put on people. I'd argue that the combination of just these two situations makes for a far worse situation that fake tanking currently.

You propose a solution to a problem, but the solution might end up worse than the current problem and might not even solve it. What if the fake tank queued with 2 friends? He gets to fake tank and your attempt to vote kick gets you three dings from him and his friends.

If you've committed to multiplayer group content, you should strive to do your best regardless of how people are judging you. That is literally the risk you take with a random duty finder. People forget that Elder Scrolls Online is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAME. Yes, you can sit and be casual and run around and do your own thing in overland, but in group content you should be putting in effort.

The entire idea behind a role system is for people to do their job. And it's being abused simply because of the freedom of mechanics in ESO. Anyone can use any weapon, armor, or skills. I play a hybrid tank werewolf, and I do a good job, and I enjoy it because I'm free to do that.

But I also play DPS, and healers, too.

I feel like the majority of objections now are originating from people who regularly abuse the system, or afraid of being trolled by the one or two people a month who might downvote them.

If you're regularly receiving positive reputation, one troll will not impact your score.

CoronHR

i think the only real solution is to kick. it's not perfect, but this idea that somehow dungeon finder is going to filter out fake tanks so we don't have to is a pie in the sky dream

HappyDan

if 3 people queue together, and your heal/dps/tanking ability are not to par, at the end they will rate you low score and you get penalized for nothing. Pretty bad idea imo, the concept my be good but it can be abused.

redspecter23

MakoRuu wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

The issue is that how a player performs is not static. It's a variable based on the group composition. If three players are zerging and one person wants to stop to do the quest, that one person could get three downvotes because they are playing differently than the rest of the group. The alternative is true. One person is going fast and three are a bit slower. The fast player gets three dings in that particular group. In this example you have players that are getting dinged not for "bad" behavior but for behavior that doesn't match up with the majority of the group. That's the sort of abuse I'd be more worried about.

In addition to that, every single player hitting that queue button would now know they are being judged the entire time. Any little mistake or even just doing something others don't like for whatever reason and you get downvoted potentially. That's a lot of stress to put on people. I'd argue that the combination of just these two situations makes for a far worse situation that fake tanking currently.

You propose a solution to a problem, but the solution might end up worse than the current problem and might not even solve it. What if the fake tank queued with 2 friends? He gets to fake tank and your attempt to vote kick gets you three dings from him and his friends.

If you've committed to multiplayer group content, you should strive to do your best regardless of how people are judging you. That is literally the risk you take with a random duty finder. People forget that Elder Scrolls Online is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAME. Yes, you can sit and be casual and run around and do your own thing in overland, but in group content you should be putting in effort.

The entire idea behind a role system is for people to do their job. And it's being abused simply because of the freedom of mechanics in ESO. Anyone can use any weapon, armor, or skills. I play a hybrid tank werewolf, and I do a good job, and I enjoy it because I'm free to do that.

But I also play DPS, and healers, too.

I feel like the majority of objections now are originating from people who regularly abuse the system, or afraid of being trolled by the one or two people a month who might downvote them.

If you're regularly receiving positive reputation, one troll will not impact your score.

If you put in any system that allows others to negatively affect other players, it will be abused by some non zero percentage of the population. Knowing that, some players even some in this very thread have said they will queue less than they do currently. I certainly wouldn't risk my reputation in a random queue at all. I'll either load up three dummy accounts and run solo and upvote myself as much as possible or queue with three friends and upvote eachother as much as possible. So far we've only discussed the potential negative abuse, but how would you fix the false positive abuse that would certainly happen as well?

Like I said earlier. I'm not concerned that I won't perform my role well. I'm more concerned about offending someone in some other way I can't possibly be aware of and having my score negatively affected as a result. Even something as simple as running a recent arms pack from the crown store could lead to negative rep and that has nothing to do with my actual tanking.

Galarthor

Personally, I am glad to get a fake tank in normal dungeons. They more often than not better DDs than the actual DDs and you don't really need tanks for that content - healers even more so.

And besides, where do you draw the line for being considered a fake tank? Being too squishy? Not taunting (enough)?

There are plenty of DDs out there in the queues that barely deal any damage. What is supposed to happen to them? They are effectively "fake-DDing". Should they get punished too?

And what about healers? Are they "fake" if there is 1 death, 10 deaths or 100 deaths in a run? Or are they already "fake" when you have to use a single heal/shield ability of your own? But then the effectiveness of a healer also depends on the healed player. Standing in AoEs or not avoiding certain mechanics may cost them their life, but doesn't necessarily mean that the healer is bad/fake. So where do you draw the line?

The only real solution is for ZOS to make the content more difficult again so that you actually need a tanky player in your group and has to keep taunt up at all times. But I doubt that is what the majority of players want ... if they did, they'd be playing more veteran content than they are now.

UtopianWarrior88

Nah this is not a good idea. Many people can just easily burn RNDs with a fake tank, and such a system should either be automated or not implemented to avoid report abuse.

K9002

Why go after fake tanks? Downvote fake DDs who can't even hit 5k DPS mark, banish them into oblivion and for good measure curse their descendants for at least 5 generations. You'd reduce the DD queue times and possibly get the real tanks to start joining PUGs again.

Mr_Stach

Yeah let's just add a parsing dummy at the start of each dungeon, if you are below the mark you get ejected into space.

While we're at it let's add a chaos ball the the Tank needs to hold onto while the DPS Parse, and the Healer needs to keep the Tank Alive.

It'll be perfect

kieso

Remove the need for the trinity in all content levels is the only way to get rid of fake tanks.

Sidonius

K9002 wrote: »

Why go after fake tanks? Downvote fake DDs who can't even hit 5k DPS

It's always fun with a tank doing his thing, a healer doing his thing only to have two DDs making a long dungeon longer.

thorwyn

OMG the other DD did not rez me in 2,5 seconds! *downvote*
OMG this guy has an inapropriate name! *downvote*
OMG this dude did not give me the Kinras Dagger! *downvote*
OMG this noob went afk during the dungeon! *downvote*
OMG I wanted to read all the books and dialogues and the other guys just went ahead! *downvote*
OMG this *** queued for a veteran dungeon at CP 250!!! *downvote*

...you get the idea.

There are far too many reasons beside faking roles to downvote a player if you don't like or agree with their playstyle. Your system is an open can of worms for revenge and spite. I bet some people would just downvote for the fun of it. The result would ultimately be a much longer dungeon queue, because everyone would rather run with guild mates instead of taking the risk of running with strangers that might spoil your reputation.

mercer_cap

Galarthor wrote: »

Personally, I am glad to get a fake tank in normal dungeons. They more often than not better DDs than the actual DDs and you don't really need tanks for that content - healers even more so.

And besides, where do you draw the line for being considered a fake tank? Being too squishy? Not taunting (enough)?

There are plenty of DDs out there in the queues that barely deal any damage. What is supposed to happen to them? They are effectively "fake-DDing". Should they get punished too?

And what about healers? Are they "fake" if there is 1 death, 10 deaths or 100 deaths in a run? Or are they already "fake" when you have to use a single heal/shield ability of your own? But then the effectiveness of a healer also depends on the healed player. Standing in AoEs or not avoiding certain mechanics may cost them their life, but doesn't necessarily mean that the healer is bad/fake. So where do you draw the line?

The only real solution is for ZOS to make the content more difficult again so that you actually need a tanky player in your group and has to keep taunt up at all times. But I doubt that is what the majority of players want ... if they did, they'd be playing more veteran content than they are now.

The comment above just summarises it all. There is no problem and it definitely doesn't need to be solved.

I am pretty sure your comment is going to ignored by the poisonous minority that believes players should be punished...