Why is the crafting tree not made up of almost all passives?

xXSilverDragonXx

The crafting cp tree really could use a lot more passives and a lot less need to slot. It was my understanding that CP2.0 happened because of power creep. I remember then began nerfing the original tree some years back. But this was about being too powerful within combat. I fail to see how more than a random few selections in the green tree would make someone powerful.

And the logic of four slots is to limit that power, yes? So you cannot get all kinds of extra damage or buffs within the game. But again, how does this relate to the crafting tree? Well, let's see the kind of power we might have....

Angler's Instinct Slotted, because those fish are the key to godhood.

Gifted Rider Slotted, because jousting is apparently a thing in ESO and nobody told us.

Homemaker Slotted because 10% chance at a second furnishing plan will make your bank very OP. Except after the Jubilee when their value is nerfed to dirt.

Liquid Efficiency Slotted, because potions are costly? :shrugs:

Master Gatherer Slotted, because that extra second or two it takes to farm each node is apparently a really big deal.

I can see right now how this is really addressing power creep. I'm being sarcastic, of course, but I really don't see the logic of why any of these I am specifically addressing need to be slotted and cannot be passives...

Meticulous Disassembly Slotted. Well I guess if we have this slotted all the time we might get one too many zircon platings? Those few extra mats will really cause a major shift in the economy? Oh wait I can slot it anyway. It's just a matter of remembering to do so. Or having an addon do it for me.

Plentiful Harvest Slotted. I can actually see some logic in making this slotted. Still, it's just more of a nuisance and not really about power creep.

Professional Upkeep Slotted, but really? This seems a bit more like trolling players. I mean, how many would remember to change this whenever they repair armor? More likely you repair then get pissed because you forgot to slot it. Or you could just have repair kits.

Rationer Slotted, but seriously? Why?. More importantly, if you eat/drink your food, but forget you didn't have this slotted because you had to change them while you were farming earlier, will it update the time if you slot it after you eat/drink? If not, just make it passive because who wants to look at the food timer and be constantly reminded they lost 30 minutes because they forgot to go into their champion tree and change it?

Reel Technique Slotted. Because You will get angler in 3 months instead of 4. And don't forget that 25% more roe you will be banging out at record speed.

Steed's Blessing Slotted. Because non combat speed makes you very powerful when running those writs. Clearly.

Treasure Hunter Slotted. Because that better quality item in that chest in that dungeon where you probably didn't remember or have time to change it if you didn't have it slotted would make you way too OP.

War Mount Slotted, because again jousting is a thing.

Could we please have these made passives. Nothing here runs any risk of making anyone overpowered. More likely it runs the risk of making people annoyed that they have to have another addon or remember to keep changing their champion points when they do something different in the game.

Naftal

They should ALL be passives. There aren't more than 4 you need for any one activity, unlike the other two trees.

Unless they make like 8-10 slottables for one activity then there's no point having any slottables.

xaraan

I think they just HAD to pick some active ones to fit their theme of having 4 slottable in each tree.

I've said for a long time, almost all of them should be passive. Maybe leave the potion and food ones active, then add some additional things for new actives, like some companion buffs and similar things that aren't direct power boosts if that is what they are trying to avoid.

There is something wrong with the redesign when I went from 810 usable CP to almost 2k usable and got weaker. Combat wise, I can get with that as a "re-balance", but losing non combat passives just felt like they were making the game less convenient for the heck of it.

Unknown_Redemption

The craft tree must be a nightmare for folks on console.

perfiction

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

The craft tree must be a nightmare for folks on console.

It's a nightmare even on PC because ZOS added 30 seconds cooldown on swapping slottables just to hamper Jack of All Trades addon (which got really popular). We got punished for trying to avoid pointless micromanagement.

chessalavakia_ESO

Because, it allows players to have more customization when it comes to how they design their characters.

Unfortunately, the function runs into issues balancing the payoffs and with regards to players rapidly switching between different options at the higher CP levels both with and without addons.

Personally, I think if they rework it some of the options that are slottable should be removed instead of being made passive because they screw up the economy.

Plentiful Harvest, Treasure Hunter, and Meticulous Disassembly are on most of my chars but, I think they should all go away if it's updated.

redspecter23

I agree with what was stated above. Blue and red trees have limitations for balance reasons. This makes sense and is logical. The green tree slot limitations don't have anything to do with balance. There is no combination that makes you any more powerful in any given situation. About to repair your armor? Slot professional upkeep to make it cheaper. Going fishing? Slot those and go nuts. If you're harvesting, you'll have a couple for that situation.

The argument about making choices doesn't make any sense for the green tree as there is never an actual choice. You can just slot whatever is right for the situation, then reslot for the next situation. The green tree slottables do nothing but create a "slot the right things" micromanagement minigame that I find absolutely unnecessary.

I believe that in the past ZOS has stated there are performance hits for having too many passives active at any given time. If this is the actual reason, it starts to make a bit more sense, but doesn't really make me feel any better about it.

madman65

Myself I would like a sub-slot or 2, it would make the sub-passives available.

deleted221106-002999

xXSilverDragonXx wrote: »

...It was my understanding that CP2.0 happened because of power creep. I remember then began nerfing the original tree some years back. ...

Power creep may have been an afterthought but it was clear at the time that performance was the driver. I don't recall if it was a dev or gina mentioned that under cp 1 'everything' was checked constantly. The performance impetus was pretty much validated when the 'jack of all trades' add-on, which would have by-passed the slottable shenannigans of the green tree in particular, induced a reactionary 30 second cool-down from the devs on changing slottables.

As an aside it looked like they just shoved a facade pattern over the extant code and left it up to the players to choose - instead of re-writing the 'check everything' code it seems they just made it so calls to that code were only delivered 12 player defined options to 'check everything' on.

But given it was clearly (check back in forum for dev/gina posts particularly with reference to 'jack of all trades' add-on) a 'performance' driven decision with maybe a nod towards power creep while they were at it, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for green tree slottables to be perma-slotted/always on at any time in the forseeable future.

There were huge complaints at the time about this and it resurfaces from time to time, invariably met with the same deafening silence.

Good luck, though.

McTaterskins

The overall system has far too many slotted vs passives

Necrotech_Master

McTaterskins wrote: »

The overall system has far too many slotted vs passives

this, but as other stated i think the red/blue trees are in a good spot, it works for balance reasons

the green tree there are many slottables that should be passives

i am of a firm believer that slottables should only be a slottable if it has combat relevance, like the sneak cost reduction, the mount ones, etc would be fine as slottables since they have some combat relevance

BretonMage

I find it incomprehensible as well. Having resource gathering perks is really only a convenience and time saving measure, so they're more like QOL enhancements to me.

Browiseth

i kinda like the idea that you dedicate a character to a specific kind of non-combat specialization. so crafting, thieving, fishing and so on

but yea i guess i wouldn't mind if it was all made completely passive

rpa

They made a poor design decision and stuck in it. Would not hold breath waiting for fix.

RisenEclipse

I agree. Most of the green tree should be updated to be passives. Even half of the slotted ones being turned to passives would make a huge difference. I shouldn't have to pay gold to switch between stealing bonuses and fishing bonuses every few minutes when I bounce between both activities.

peacenote

Comrade_Ogilvy wrote: »

xXSilverDragonXx wrote: »

...It was my understanding that CP2.0 happened because of power creep. I remember then began nerfing the original tree some years back. ...

Power creep may have been an afterthought but it was clear at the time that performance was the driver. I don't recall if it was a dev or gina mentioned that under cp 1 'everything' was checked constantly. The performance impetus was pretty much validated when the 'jack of all trades' add-on, which would have by-passed the slottable shenannigans of the green tree in particular, induced a reactionary 30 second cool-down from the devs on changing slottables.

As an aside it looked like they just shoved a facade pattern over the extant code and left it up to the players to choose - instead of re-writing the 'check everything' code it seems they just made it so calls to that code were only delivered 12 player defined options to 'check everything' on.

But given it was clearly (check back in forum for dev/gina posts particularly with reference to 'jack of all trades' add-on) a 'performance' driven decision with maybe a nod towards power creep while they were at it, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for green tree slottables to be perma-slotted/always on at any time in the forseeable future.

There were huge complaints at the time about this and it resurfaces from time to time, invariably met with the same deafening silence.

Good luck, though.

Thanks for posting this. I somehow missed all of that on the forums at the time and now it all makes so much more sense. It makes me sad, as it's yet another of the long list of things that have made the game less fun in the name of performance. Call me crazy, but I believe there would be ways to re-code to improve performance without losing functionality. It's called refactoring: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_refactoring

Phanex

I guess the best way for them to safe face would be to give "non"-active bar traits give you 50% of the bonus while the active bar traits give you 100%?

I mean, we got to waste some point just to get to the good stuff, might as well let us get something from putting all these points in non-active bar traits.

kieso

Tru, or at least give us two more slots.

Ratzkifal

The official reason we were given is "due to performance issues" but I am pretty sure not all nodes affect performance the same way.
Treasure Hunter for example should only be making checks whenever you are opening a chest, maybe whenever you are opening any container. That isn't most of the time so I doubt it's anywhere close to any of the Warfare and Fitness CP boni in terms of performance, some of which have to make checks pretty much any time you use a skill.

I think 4 slots are quite enough, in theory anyway, but the current issue is that some green CPs are mandatory for efficient gameplay, like Treasure Hunter or the deconstruction expert on your crafter. Those boni should not be slottable because they overshadow everything else. Neither buffing the other nodes or nerfing these existing ones will shake up the "green CP meta" because they were never playing in the same league to begin with.
Treasure Hunter, Liquid Efficiency, Plentiful Harvest and Meticulous Disassembly should be made nonslottable and suddenly 4 slots would be more than enough for the remaining nodes.

proprio.meb16_ESO

This discussion is more or less one year late... almost all these considerations were made back when cp 2.0 made its first appearance, in March 2021.

The critics on the green tree structure and its slottable perks were pretty intense, yet nothing was changed and still nowadays we have, other than the need to swap perks (some addons have become just mandatory) characters that around cp1650 (cant recall the exact number now) are fully developed in blue and red trees and gather experience just for the green one.

SilverBride

I wish that all CP were passive. I'd rather have a slightly lesser effect and have them all passive than have to constantly switch them around, which I don't even bother with anyway because I hate micromanaging my characters.

Ratzkifal

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

This discussion is more or less one year late... almost all these considerations were made back when cp 2.0 made its first appearance, in March 2021.

The critics on the green tree structure and its slottable perks were pretty intense, yet nothing was changed and still nowadays we have, other than the need to swap perks (some addons have become just mandatory) characters that around cp1650 (cant recall the exact number now) are fully developed in blue and red trees and gather experience just for the green one.

I wouldn't say this discussion is too late, it merely serves as a reminder that we haven't forgotten about it and still think it should be changed. ZOS has yet to update the green tree with subconstellations so providing feedback about it early might help them whenever they do want to go and update the green tree in any way whatsoever.

proprio.meb16_ESO

Everything does i suppose, but i dont think it will be overhauled anytime soon. It was far more debated one year ago and nothing changed anyway... id welcome more (or even all) passives in green tree, but i don think it will happen in the near future

Marginis

Eh, I don't mind it. Makes sense, at least as much as the other trees. Gives players a kind of soft cap to reach. Instead of having some players be straight up better by virtue of more points, they just have more versatility in moving around points. Makes the whole champion system a lot less punishing to players not killing their lives on that hardcore grind.

...Even if it is mostly non-combat stuff. It still applies in the same way.

Bat

This old chestnut.

xXSilverDragonXx

perfiction wrote: »

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

The craft tree must be a nightmare for folks on console.

It's a nightmare even on PC because ZOS added 30 seconds cooldown on swapping slottables just to hamper Jack of All Trades addon (which got really popular). We got punished for trying to avoid pointless micromanagement.

What's really awesome is that instead of just addressing why there is a need for such an addon with regards to the micromanagement necessary for the craft tree, they block an addon that helped keep their player base from getting repeatedly annoyed. Seems a strange choice for 'crafting' perks.

Some people said that this was about performance more than power creep. If that is true then it is probably time to get off this sinking ship. I mean really, if changing most if not all of these to passives somehow causes performance issues? This game is on its last dying leg.

I get the slots in the other trees. I see the purpose. I do not see the purpose for slotting things like:

• horse speed and stamina boosts (again, are we now jousting?)
• anything related to farming
• anything related to fishing
• treasure hunter (we are not talking gold gear here or probably even purple in many cases)
• toon speed out of combat

And if they have to put a cooldown in there because so many were getting it changed by an addon, doesn't that mean the need to slot these and then keep changing them ultimately puts a strain on the system? Or was that the desire to troll the player base and make use do senseless micromanagement and keep wasting our time going into a tree to change slots on something totally unrelated to combat.

I wonder if they have even considered that every time players have to change these, they tire of the game just a little more. Have they not heard of that saying 'the straw that broke the camel's back'? One would think they would want to make things less tedious. This isn't even about extending our gameplay time. It's just an unnecessary added chore.

ZOS, please make these passive. It's better for everyone. Your systems. Our patience. Satisfaction with the game. See that? Everyone wins. Nobody suffers. GO TEAM!

xXSilverDragonXx

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

This discussion is more or less one year late... almost all these considerations were made back when cp 2.0 made its first appearance, in March 2021.

The critics on the green tree structure and its slottable perks were pretty intense, yet nothing was changed and still nowadays we have, other than the need to swap perks (some addons have become just mandatory) characters that around cp1650 (cant recall the exact number now) are fully developed in blue and red trees and gather experience just for the green one.

It's never too late to discuss a desire for change. It's never too late for players to speak up. We have had many QOL improvements in this game because players kept speaking up about them. The worst thing to do is let it go and live with it.

Marginis

xXSilverDragonXx wrote: »

ZOS, please make these passive. It's better for everyone. Your systems. Our patience. Satisfaction with the game. See that? Everyone wins. Nobody suffers. GO TEAM!

I mean, I don't think you can speak for everyone. There are at least some that disagree with your premise.

Players who only have enough CP to get to four active champion abilities, would be disadvantaged, for example.

And just for reference, there ARE some abilities here that can apply to scenarios that consider combat (I'm thinking mostly of Cyrodiil), since that seems to matter to some people here:

Breakfall
Fleet Phantom
Gifted Rider
Liquid Efficiency
Out of Sight
Rationer
Soul Reservoir
Steadfast Enchantment
Steed's Blessing
Sustaining Shadows
War Mount

And some of these require being slotted to work, so people have to choose where their strengths are instead of just being better straight up than lower CP people. Would you rather be able to run on your mount past a group of enemies without getting dismounted on your way to the next keep, or would you prefer to have better stealth to sneak around them? Maybe you'd prefer to just wade right into the fight because your potions/poisons/food have extra efficiency.

I'm not saying these things are as relevant to combat as, say, deal X% more damage, but they are relevant to combat.

AND combat isn't the only thing that matters. It's still worth balancing the game for people that like crafting, or treasure hunting, or thieving, or fishing, or whatever. Specialize! Make a build! This isn't TESV where you can be the best and everything at all times. This is ESO. You want to do more things, make more characters, or spend some gold and time switching stuff around.

I mean, not that I even care that much about this, but this really isn't a bad thing like some people here make it seem. These are the same kind of complaints I heard back in the day, about how you had to choose a class in this game instead of being able to use cloak and also jabs and also pets and also chain, or how we didn't have enough skyshards in the game because people couldn't handle not having every ability in the game unlocked at once.

Elvenheart

Some of the active ones just don’t make sense. For example, your char gathering faster should be passive because it suggests that you have just become more proficient in gathering through practice. Once you are proficient, you should not suddenly forget how to gather faster just because you need that active slot for something else, your character should always be proficient. That’s just one example, but it can be applied to several of the active nodes.

proprio.meb16_ESO

xXSilverDragonXx wrote: »

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

This discussion is more or less one year late... almost all these considerations were made back when cp 2.0 made its first appearance, in March 2021.

The critics on the green tree structure and its slottable perks were pretty intense, yet nothing was changed and still nowadays we have, other than the need to swap perks (some addons have become just mandatory) characters that around cp1650 (cant recall the exact number now) are fully developed in blue and red trees and gather experience just for the green one.

It's never too late to discuss a desire for change. It's never too late for players to speak up. We have had many QOL improvements in this game because players kept speaking up about them. The worst thing to do is let it go and live with it.

From here on the forum? Uhmmm... i strongly doubt it, maybe the so called "content creators" have some voice in zos decisions, but not players on the forum... the last big call (hundred of posts, almost a hundred pages of complaints) to avoid or at least contain that awful implementation of awa were just openly ignored, and a whole lot of open issues are ignored too since faaar more than cp 2.0

Cant really see them taking the time to balance green tree because of a dozen posts in a thread that sooner or later will go on second page and be forgotten... hope im wrong, but really dont think things will change.

Hurbster

Annoying then, still annoying now.