Modernizing Roles for ESO in 2022

Ksariyu

TLDR: Skill-lines for tank and support roles should include more options to increase independent damage output, and characters in general should be more self-reliant.

It's no secret that playing a tank in overland content is tedious. There have also been plenty of complaints regarding tanks and supports being handicapped or just straight up disregarded in the design of solo content, particularly arenas. I believe a big part of this stems from the fact that ESO, despite attempting to break free from some of the confines of traditional MMO design, has dated itself in how it handles roles.

The typical Holy Trinity is pretty familiar to many of us: Tanks hold aggro and take damage, Supports (Healers) keep the group alive and provide buffs, and DPS just does damage. The problem with this however is that it's exclusively optimized for choreographed group content, and falls flat in pretty much every other scenario. The good news is that games outside of the MMO genre have started to adapt the Holy Trinity concept themselves, and have found better ways to make every role more individually impactful and engaging without completely breaking the balance of the trinity. One of the biggest points that these games have made is that EVERYTHING should be able to deal respectable damage. Of course right off the bat this seems like it would throw balance out the window, but this one major change simply serves to redefine how the Holy Trinity works. Now, rather than defining roles based on their stats, we can start to define them based on their kit and what they actually do in a fight.

The "modern" Holy Trinity looks a bit more like this: Tanks create opportunities for their team and deny opportunities for the enemy. Supports (Healers) still keep the group alive and provide buffs (Not much changes here besides their reliance on teammates to do damage). DPS take advantage of openings to eliminate high-threat targets. On the surface this doesn't feel like a big change, but it puts into perspective how we can decouple roles and their damage-dealing potential. Rather than saying "Well a tank can take more damage so they should do less damage," we look at it as, "A tank spends more time disrupting enemies than dealing damage." Similarly, for supports we can say, "A support spends more time bolstering allies than dealing damage." Conversely, for DPS we say, "They spend LESS time focusing on defense/utility and therefore spend more time dealing damage."

This makes a big impact on how players interact with content. For solo-content, players from all roles can effectively eliminate their targets through their own individual specialties: Tanks naturally take less damage and therefore can attack more consistently. Supports can buff their damage output to nearly reach DPS levels, and/or survive more through healing/defensive buffs. DPS will still be able to do plenty of damage on their own, but have to be careful to not take too much damage, which limits their potential. For non-optimized groups, players from all roles will be better able to carry groups without having to switch to a DPS build.

Not only does this help to ease frustrations in group content where players can feel heavily weighed down by their teammates, it also allows players to create genuine character identities, where they can build a character with a theme or archetype and still effectively clear all content (Player-skill dependent, of course). Naturally, this would also increase damage output across the board, especially from fully-optimized groups, however this can be balanced in a number of ways with increased enemy HP likely being the easiest.

If you read all this, thanks for taking the time and interest, and I'd welcome your thoughts and opinions.

HowlKimchi

I hard disagree on this.

If you wanna make a tank that can deal damage, just do it by taking offensive skills, and mixing and matching what works for you.

If you don't want to do that, use the armory and have a tank/dps setup ready.

The game is getting too homogenized as it is.

jaws343

Tanks/healers should not be able to do solo overland content at all, let alone any significant amount of damage in non solo content.

Switch your gear and skills and stop trying to do solo content in tank setups. Tanks/Healers are literally group support builds. If you aren't in a group those builds shouldn't be viable.

LashanW

Never gonna happen because PvP and PvE is not balanced separately in this game. Besides, armory system is there to help with things like this.

Grandchamp1989

We tried a couple of years back.

proc sets had a flat damage effect that allowed supports to dish out some pretty decent dmg.

It got abused in PvP sort of.. Seems many didn't care for passive damage on a tanky build.

Your best bet at this point is the armory which works in dungeon's and overland if you need to bring damage.

Ksariyu

@jaws343 Why shouldn't tanks and healers be able to do solo content? That just seems a really odd thing to want. DPS is also a group role; what makes it special that it should be able to do solo content when the others can't?

@LashanW Funny enough, most of the games that utilize this new version of the trinity are PvP games, namely class-based shooters and MOBAs. If anything this would bring the gameplay of PvP and PvE closer together. As for the armory system, it's a clunky bandaid fix that also functions as a cash-grab. It's not a real solution to the problem.

@Grandchamp1989 The issue there is they implemented passive burst damage sources with proc sets, like you said. In general that is the problem with many of this game's systems is they all revolve around passive effects. The ability to attack and defend need to be balanced, particularly with the game's active abilities.

HowlKimchi

Ksariyu wrote: »

@jaws343 Why shouldn't tanks and healers be able to do solo content? That just seems a really odd thing to want. DPS is also a group role; what makes it special that it should be able to do solo content when the others can't?

@LashanW Funny enough, most of the games that utilize this new version of the trinity are PvP games, namely class-based shooters and MOBAs. If anything this would bring the gameplay of PvP and PvE closer together. As for the armory system, it's a clunky bandaid fix that also functions as a cash-grab. It's not a real solution to the problem.

@Grandchamp1989 The issue there is they implemented passive burst damage sources with proc sets, like you said. In general that is the problem with many of this game's systems is they all revolve around passive effects. The ability to attack and defend need to be balanced, particularly with the game's active abilities.

DPS builds are indeed group roles. Solo builds (the ones you take to arenas) are not dps builds, they cant rely on other people for sustain, and they adjust as well.

Armory is far from clunky and the free slots is enough for this purpose.

Tanks and healers CAN solo content by adjusting the FLEXIBLE skills system of the game (just how dps builds do it too by adding more survivability to their kits), not to mention companions are now a thing,

The game already has things in place to allow any character to do any content.

What you are suggesting is too drastic and impossible to implement without reworking core aspects of the game. In fact, and I dont mean to be rude, it may be better for you to look for a different game.

GW2 sounds like the game you want, honestly.

peacenote

I mostly disagree with this. Here are my reasons:

• Content creators have been generating "solo" builds for quite some time now. If tanks and healers are having trouble adapting to solo content, they can turn to content creators and the forums for ideas. Can you breeze through vMA with your vRG main tank setup? Maybe not. But I know as an end game healer I have pages and pages of different setups per BOSS, let alone per "role." Why anyone would expect to complete an arena with a setup aimed at optimizing a role for a group of 12 in end game is beyond me.
• We now have the Armory, which allows to swap in another build (except for mundus) before we run an arena or run around overland. And by we, I mean tanks and healers, as I play both roles.
• "Back in the day," I made a character specifically aimed at completing vMA. I made characters aimed at PvP, characters more about tanking, even a character aimed at being good at gathering. Until recently, ZOS has given us tools to seemingly encourage and embrace having different characters -- easy access to xp scrolls and lots of double xp events for leveling, access to cp quickly for alts, and more. Rewards had been shifting to account-wide so it was easier to move between characters for different types of content if you wanted. The handling of AwA, with the erasing of our alt histories and lack of recognition for completing a hard achievement a second or third or fourth time, does conflict with this a bit... but for the purposes of this discussion, we do get a ton of character slots and a lot of support for easily having alts with different strengths and focus. Expecting to be able to do everything on one class, one role, one build... I wouldn't like a game like that to be honest. Too "blah."

All that said, in ESO, healing has always been a more enjoyable role, for me, than any other MMO, because from day 1 healing was hybrid and brought decent DPS. I loved that. It was dynamic and special. And there have been changes over the years which have negatively impacted this excellent aspect of ESO. Power creep means that the DPS we do bring isn't always as meaningful. The change to Healing Springs so you can't lay down more than one single-handedly made the healing role less dynamic because you can't place multiple heals ahead of time, knowing where things WILL happen, and then DPS and help with mechanics in between, as much. The latest update to CP seemed to be going in a direction where healers have to choose between keeping their damage and enhancing their heals.

So from that perspective, I think it is important for ZOS to know that this is part of what makes healing fun, and if nothing else, they should take care not to further nerf the things that allowed this role to be so flexible.

But I've even seen tanks able to bring 15/20K damage in raids and dungeons. Real ones, not "fake" ones. Which means, in a way, it seems like what's being requested is the ability to add damage without having to do the work to learn the class and become good enough with the base role to know how to incorporate damage. And I don't really support that either. New tanks and healers need to learn their base roles. Then comes learning how to be hybrid, carrying multiple armor sets, swapping out abilities and cp per situation, etc. It's not something people can do on day one... but anyone who knows what they are doing can be pretty self reliant with only a couple of tweaks. If one doesn't have the patience to do this while learning to be a tank and healer, they should make an Armory build for other scenarios or a DPS character. My two cents.



PS. I actually disagree with the stance below even more. This type of limiting thought process would also make this game very "blah." I have been here since launch and have soloed all kinds of things creatively as a tank or healer. It's part of becoming a better player.

jaws343 wrote: »

Tanks/healers should not be able to do solo overland content at all, let alone any significant amount of damage in non solo content.

Switch your gear and skills and stop trying to do solo content in tank setups. Tanks/Healers are literally group support builds. If you aren't in a group those builds shouldn't be viable.

LashanW

Ksariyu wrote: »

Funny enough, most of the games that utilize this new version of the trinity are PvP games, namely class-based shooters and MOBAs. If anything this would bring the gameplay of PvP and PvE closer together. As for the armory system, it's a clunky bandaid fix that also functions as a cash-grab. It's not a real solution to the problem.

Sure, let's rework entirety of ESO so concepts in those types of games also work without issues here.

Like other people said, trinity in ESO only applies to group content. In solo content all three roles are merged. If you try to bring a full-blown trial ready tank into solo content, that's your problem.

Armory system is amazing. It solves the issue completely. Only thing holding this back is the asinine monetization/pricing. 1500 crowns for a character specific armory slot is absolute nonsense. That's the same price as a character slot. (so I do agree about this part)

Ksariyu

@HaruKamui Sorry, guess I missed your first reply. So I'll start there.
The problem with just switching builds is it then limits your ability to be an effective tank for your team. And I don't mean this in the sense of personal survivability, but in the tank-utility you grant your allies. You're making your team weaker to cover up their weaknesses, which makes no sense.

As for DPS and solo builds, notice how much overlap there is to a DPS and solo build compared to a tank or healer and a solo. You swap out maybe 2-3 skills and a couple sets for DPS. For tank or healer you're swapping weapon types, armor types, 5-7 skills and all of your sets. It's not even comparable. You can for the most part solo with a pure DPS build if you're good. You cannot solo with a tank or healer build.

Ksariyu

@peacenote "Solo builds" are DPS builds with a couple swapped skills. Why do tanks and healers have to adapt so much more to solo?
The Amory is a cashgrab.
This wouldn't remove the alt-game. Different classes, different roles, different activities (I'd actually love being able to go deeper into building a crafter/gatherer specialist) would all benefit from alt characters. This just allows people who like to have a main to actually play that character for more than one specific activity, something I find very "blah."
I'm not entirely sure where the argument is in the rest of your post though. Seems like we mostly agree that it's boring to only be a heal bot or a shield bot, and also that the ability to swap tasks on the fly and be flexible is a good thing.

@LashanW The great thing is that this suggestion doesn't necessarily require a huge change. It's mostly just adding damage and probably restricting access on certain buffs. Not a monumental rework.
Of course the trinity only applies to group content, but my argument is that the difference should be in the way you play in a group, instead of in what you wear.
And thank you for highlighting why the armory system actually DOESN'T solve anything in its current state.

LashanW

Ksariyu wrote: »

The great thing is that this suggestion doesn't necessarily require a huge change. It's mostly just adding damage and probably restricting access on certain buffs. Not a monumental rework.
Of course the trinity only applies to group content, but my argument is that the difference should be in the way you play in a group, instead of in what you wear.
And thank you for highlighting why the armory system actually DOESN'T solve anything in its current state.

Tbh I don't get your current issue. Your suggestions are too vague. Can you give some concrete examples of what you want to see?

I play all 3 roles in PvE endgame. Play my share of PvP too. I did have the problem you described. It was a pain to do any solo content on my DK imperial tank and Templar imperial tank. My healers didn't have much of a problem since they already had a lot of max magicka and could use magicka damaging skills (they scale well enough with max magicka.)

But the armory system solved the issue for me. My tanks have solo setups now saved in a armory build.

dmnqwk

If you're playing as a tank, you sacrifice sustain for defense. Sure, you can sacrifice other things, but it's generally sustain you lose to get 30k resistance. So, because of this, your single target will often suffer as you cannot afford a spammable.

So when you want a tank to deal damage, the key is finding cheap ways to spam something, all the while relying on equilibrium to ensure you have sufficient Magicka to keep up the dots.

My Warden rotates Sub Assault, Polar Winds, Shards, Ice Blockade (with minor berserk slotted, because adding too much means more GCDs lost to 'life tapping'. Hits about 12.5k on bosses, 10k/mob AoE (I did the Gryphon Run in Summerset solo and did 20k, done some triple bosses overland, hit 30k, love doing the last pull before engine guardian... hit 320k before levelling off at the end of the pull on 90k, thanks to wearing Azureblight for fun at the time).

My Dragonknight uses Chain as a spammable and rotates Cinders/Ice Blockade/Fire Breath/Fiery Chains with Oblivion running and hits 17.5k single target, but only about 6k/mob AoE (because the standard ultimate is too expensive for trash).

I can appreciate these numbers are not where a dps would be at, but in the real world without flanking, major/minor fracture switching they'll only be doing 30-40k single target a lot of time.... and have to pay attention to survival. So I think the balance is quite good, if you put the effort into finding the right sets to wear on a Tank in the world.

jaws343

HaruKamui wrote: »

Ksariyu wrote: »

@jaws343 Why shouldn't tanks and healers be able to do solo content? That just seems a really odd thing to want. DPS is also a group role; what makes it special that it should be able to do solo content when the others can't?

@LashanW Funny enough, most of the games that utilize this new version of the trinity are PvP games, namely class-based shooters and MOBAs. If anything this would bring the gameplay of PvP and PvE closer together. As for the armory system, it's a clunky bandaid fix that also functions as a cash-grab. It's not a real solution to the problem.

@Grandchamp1989 The issue there is they implemented passive burst damage sources with proc sets, like you said. In general that is the problem with many of this game's systems is they all revolve around passive effects. The ability to attack and defend need to be balanced, particularly with the game's active abilities.

DPS builds are indeed group roles. Solo builds (the ones you take to arenas) are not dps builds, they cant rely on other people for sustain, and they adjust as well.

Armory is far from clunky and the free slots is enough for this purpose.

Tanks and healers CAN solo content by adjusting the FLEXIBLE skills system of the game (just how dps builds do it too by adding more survivability to their kits), not to mention companions are now a thing,

The game already has things in place to allow any character to do any content.

What you are suggesting is too drastic and impossible to implement without reworking core aspects of the game. In fact, and I dont mean to be rude, it may be better for you to look for a different game.

GW2 sounds like the game you want, honestly.

Exactly this. In fact, my DPS build does double the DPS of my solo build. Why? Because my gear and half of my skills are more situated for survivability over DPS. Same thing should, and does apply to a tank or a healer. If you want to do more damage, you have to give up things that add to your survivability.

Not having to make any sacrifices and just giving tanks damage would lead to atrocious game balance. I single out tanks here, because quite literally all a healer has to do is swap out a few skills and they are literally a DPS build at that point, unless you expect healing skills to do DPS levels of damage, which is ridiculous.

jaws343

peacenote wrote: »

I mostly disagree with this. Here are my reasons:

• Content creators have been generating "solo" builds for quite some time now. If tanks and healers are having trouble adapting to solo content, they can turn to content creators and the forums for ideas. Can you breeze through vMA with your vRG main tank setup? Maybe not. But I know as an end game healer I have pages and pages of different setups per BOSS, let alone per "role." Why anyone would expect to complete an arena with a setup aimed at optimizing a role for a group of 12 in end game is beyond me.
• We now have the Armory, which allows to swap in another build (except for mundus) before we run an arena or run around overland. And by we, I mean tanks and healers, as I play both roles.
• "Back in the day," I made a character specifically aimed at completing vMA. I made characters aimed at PvP, characters more about tanking, even a character aimed at being good at gathering. Until recently, ZOS has given us tools to seemingly encourage and embrace having different characters -- easy access to xp scrolls and lots of double xp events for leveling, access to cp quickly for alts, and more. Rewards had been shifting to account-wide so it was easier to move between characters for different types of content if you wanted. The handling of AwA, with the erasing of our alt histories and lack of recognition for completing a hard achievement a second or third or fourth time, does conflict with this a bit... but for the purposes of this discussion, we do get a ton of character slots and a lot of support for easily having alts with different strengths and focus. Expecting to be able to do everything on one class, one role, one build... I wouldn't like a game like that to be honest. Too "blah."

All that said, in ESO, healing has always been a more enjoyable role, for me, than any other MMO, because from day 1 healing was hybrid and brought decent DPS. I loved that. It was dynamic and special. And there have been changes over the years which have negatively impacted this excellent aspect of ESO. Power creep means that the DPS we do bring isn't always as meaningful. The change to Healing Springs so you can't lay down more than one single-handedly made the healing role less dynamic because you can't place multiple heals ahead of time, knowing where things WILL happen, and then DPS and help with mechanics in between, as much. The latest update to CP seemed to be going in a direction where healers have to choose between keeping their damage and enhancing their heals.

So from that perspective, I think it is important for ZOS to know that this is part of what makes healing fun, and if nothing else, they should take care not to further nerf the things that allowed this role to be so flexible.

But I've even seen tanks able to bring 15/20K damage in raids and dungeons. Real ones, not "fake" ones. Which means, in a way, it seems like what's being requested is the ability to add damage without having to do the work to learn the class and become good enough with the base role to know how to incorporate damage. And I don't really support that either. New tanks and healers need to learn their base roles. Then comes learning how to be hybrid, carrying multiple armor sets, swapping out abilities and cp per situation, etc. It's not something people can do on day one... but anyone who knows what they are doing can be pretty self reliant with only a couple of tweaks. If one doesn't have the patience to do this while learning to be a tank and healer, they should make an Armory build for other scenarios or a DPS character. My two cents.



PS. I actually disagree with the stance below even more. This type of limiting thought process would also make this game very "blah." I have been here since launch and have soloed all kinds of things creatively as a tank or healer. It's part of becoming a better player.

jaws343 wrote: »

Tanks/healers should not be able to do solo overland content at all, let alone any significant amount of damage in non solo content.

Switch your gear and skills and stop trying to do solo content in tank setups. Tanks/Healers are literally group support builds. If you aren't in a group those builds shouldn't be viable.

I mostly take this hard line of a stance on it due to the various threads over the last few years that have argued for lowering the difficulty levels of solo arenas so that their 60K health tank build doing 5K DPS could clear the content. It's absurd. It's great if you can do it within the current limitations of the builds, but it's threads like this, where players refuse to make the changes to their build in order to do solo content properly and then complain when that content is difficult or near impossible for them to do. The fact is, even if it can be done in a tedious and long drawn out way, tanks are not meant to do solo content, they are meant to be group support roles.

Amottica

HaruKamui wrote: »

I hard disagree on this.

If you wanna make a tank that can deal damage, just do it by taking offensive skills, and mixing and matching what works for you.

If you don't want to do that, use the armory and have a tank/dps setup ready.

The game is getting too homogenized as it is.

I agree with this.

In ESO we are not hemmed into a specific build like many other MMORPGs. We have full control over how tanky or how much damage we want to do. Even then, with my tank, I have a build specifically for when I quest that allows me to do more damage but still tank a WB if I wanted to. With the armory, this is easy to do.

peacenote

Ksariyu wrote: »

@peacenote "Solo builds" are DPS builds with a couple swapped skills. Why do tanks and healers have to adapt so much more to solo?
The Amory is a cashgrab.
This wouldn't remove the alt-game. Different classes, different roles, different activities (I'd actually love being able to go deeper into building a crafter/gatherer specialist) would all benefit from alt characters. This just allows people who like to have a main to actually play that character for more than one specific activity, something I find very "blah."
I'm not entirely sure where the argument is in the rest of your post though. Seems like we mostly agree that it's boring to only be a heal bot or a shield bot, and also that the ability to swap tasks on the fly and be flexible is a good thing.

We don't need to agree, of course, so this is not meant to be antagonistic. Conversation is good. But basically I don't think we are agreeing at all. I'm saying that I have "tank and healer" characters who have been able to do lots of different content in the game, enjoyably, without the changes you are proposing, and that I think going any further towards the "everyone should do everything" direction would be a bad one for ESO. Examples:

My main is a templar healer. With her, right now I'm focusing on doing all the hard achievements in the DLC dungeons, in the healing role. But I can solo normals with her. I can solo a lot of the world bosses with her. I can do all non-world boss overland content without any help. For years I PvP'd just with different skills and armor and got lots of kills. And honestly, while I HAVE many, many nuanced setups and builds, I can do all of the overland content in my full trial healing setups just by adding jabs and the templar finisher and, if I think of it, I change out my cp slottables. It's really not much of an effort if I'm in a hurry and just want to do a quick and dirty setup. And I have yet to make an Armory setup for her because I've been busy.

My friend has a warden tank. He recognized the potential of azureblight when it dropped right away (it's getting some notice again now with u33), farmed that gear, and he can tank dungeons and do overland all in the same build, often bringing more DPS than the DPS.

I actually don't even agree that the Armory is a cash grab. For me, it was a welcome addition, especially for my PvP builds, where I always sacrificed "the right morphs" since I PvE a bit more often. However, whether it was or not, my point is that now that it exists, if folks don't know what to adjust be able to handle most ESO content as a tank or healer, that is what they can do instead. But I was doing all of the activities on my tanks and healers way before it existed. Now, if one is expecting to bring 80K DPS on a tank or a healer, that's a whole other discussion (nor is it an expectation I agree with), but most content does not need nearly that level of damage.

I was a big big advocate for dual specs, especially for tanks, so that they could enjoy questing and whatnot more. But I advocated for that years ago, before power creep, before cp slottables. Now, we have the Armory and it's fairly easy right now to adjust to be able to kill things even without it.

Anyway, it may be that my definition of "respectable damage" is different than yours, but not only do I believe that people with characters primarily specced for end game tanking or healing as first priority can still do this pretty easily, if they know their classes well, they now ALSO have the option of making an alternate spec. And you can just use the free version of this functionality to do so, for something like arenas. I think at this point we have everything we could ever ask for with regards to being flexible on our characters (except class change).

Agenericname

@peacenote
I agree with that, except the Armory not being a bit stingy. Its a welcome addition, for sure. I can grab my tank and do PvP, arenas, quest, whatever I want. It had made life much easier, but it should be account wide.

Ksariyu

@LashanW Sure, I have a few thoughts on how this could go.

In general, the goal would be to redistribute and ultimately lower the access to power-gaining buffs, while also providing bonuses to players who properly play their class/role and to groups who coordinate their members well.
-Remove most if not all self-targeting damage buffs. This would include things like Brutality from Momentum, Shrouded Daggers, and Power Surge, or Savagery from Jabs and Flames of Oblivion. To include things like Force, Courage, Berserk, etc.
-Give support lines more group-wide buffs, including more group sources of Brutality and Savagery. Things like Lotus or Drain Power could provide their buffs to the group instead of just the caster. Increase potency of these buffs.
-Cut back sources of debuffs, and limit them mostly to support skill lines.

Some specific ideas:
-1H/Shield passive: Interrupting an enemy increases your damage for x seconds.
-1H/Shield passive: Blocking grants a stacking buff that increases the damage of your next attack (Basically take Power Bash and make it a passive)
-1H/Shield: Replace Power Bash with an execute.
-1H/Shield: Shield Charge now interrupts casting targets and stuns for less time.
-NB Shadow passive: Dodging an attack increases your damage for x seconds per shadow skill equipped.
-NB Siphoning passive: Increase damage against target for each debuff on them.
-Restoration: Replace Force Siphon with a spammable damage ability.
-Restoration: Healing Springs restores resources to the group.

jaws343

Ksariyu wrote: »

@LashanW Sure, I have a few thoughts on how this could go.

In general, the goal would be to redistribute and ultimately lower the access to power-gaining buffs, while also providing bonuses to players who properly play their class/role and to groups who coordinate their members well.
-Remove most if not all self-targeting damage buffs. This would include things like Brutality from Momentum, Shrouded Daggers, and Power Surge, or Savagery from Jabs and Flames of Oblivion. To include things like Force, Courage, Berserk, etc.
-Give support lines more group-wide buffs, including more group sources of Brutality and Savagery. Things like Lotus or Drain Power could provide their buffs to the group instead of just the caster. Increase potency of these buffs.
-Cut back sources of debuffs, and limit them mostly to support skill lines.

Some specific ideas:
-1H/Shield passive: Interrupting an enemy increases your damage for x seconds.
-1H/Shield passive: Blocking grants a stacking buff that increases the damage of your next attack (Basically take Power Bash and make it a passive)
-1H/Shield: Replace Power Bash with an execute.
-1H/Shield: Shield Charge now interrupts casting targets and stuns for less time.
-NB Shadow passive: Dodging an attack increases your damage for x seconds per shadow skill equipped.
-NB Siphoning passive: Increase damage against target for each debuff on them.
-Restoration: Replace Force Siphon with a spammable damage ability.
-Restoration: Healing Springs restores resources to the group.

So your solution to make your tank build do damage is to completely gut solo builds altogether by removing important buffs. This is so completely terrible an idea I don't even know how to properly articulate it.

And then there is the part about making explicit support weapons into dps tools. Sorry, but the restro staff doesn't need a spammable. Use your class spammable if you really want one.

Ksariyu

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of what I'm getting here is that people prefer stat-based difficulty vs. skill-based difficulty. Currently, the way you engage content is by switching between sets and abilities, rather than switching how you approach a situation with the same sets and abilities.

And hey, I'll take the L on this if that's really what everyone feels. It just seems backwards to me. I'd much rather be able to dump time into one spec and learn it well enough to complete all content, and have swapping specs be like learning a new way to complete the same content.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

jaws343 wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I mostly disagree with this. Here are my reasons:

• Content creators have been generating "solo" builds for quite some time now. If tanks and healers are having trouble adapting to solo content, they can turn to content creators and the forums for ideas. Can you breeze through vMA with your vRG main tank setup? Maybe not. But I know as an end game healer I have pages and pages of different setups per BOSS, let alone per "role." Why anyone would expect to complete an arena with a setup aimed at optimizing a role for a group of 12 in end game is beyond me.
• We now have the Armory, which allows to swap in another build (except for mundus) before we run an arena or run around overland. And by we, I mean tanks and healers, as I play both roles.
• "Back in the day," I made a character specifically aimed at completing vMA. I made characters aimed at PvP, characters more about tanking, even a character aimed at being good at gathering. Until recently, ZOS has given us tools to seemingly encourage and embrace having different characters -- easy access to xp scrolls and lots of double xp events for leveling, access to cp quickly for alts, and more. Rewards had been shifting to account-wide so it was easier to move between characters for different types of content if you wanted. The handling of AwA, with the erasing of our alt histories and lack of recognition for completing a hard achievement a second or third or fourth time, does conflict with this a bit... but for the purposes of this discussion, we do get a ton of character slots and a lot of support for easily having alts with different strengths and focus. Expecting to be able to do everything on one class, one role, one build... I wouldn't like a game like that to be honest. Too "blah."

All that said, in ESO, healing has always been a more enjoyable role, for me, than any other MMO, because from day 1 healing was hybrid and brought decent DPS. I loved that. It was dynamic and special. And there have been changes over the years which have negatively impacted this excellent aspect of ESO. Power creep means that the DPS we do bring isn't always as meaningful. The change to Healing Springs so you can't lay down more than one single-handedly made the healing role less dynamic because you can't place multiple heals ahead of time, knowing where things WILL happen, and then DPS and help with mechanics in between, as much. The latest update to CP seemed to be going in a direction where healers have to choose between keeping their damage and enhancing their heals.

So from that perspective, I think it is important for ZOS to know that this is part of what makes healing fun, and if nothing else, they should take care not to further nerf the things that allowed this role to be so flexible.

But I've even seen tanks able to bring 15/20K damage in raids and dungeons. Real ones, not "fake" ones. Which means, in a way, it seems like what's being requested is the ability to add damage without having to do the work to learn the class and become good enough with the base role to know how to incorporate damage. And I don't really support that either. New tanks and healers need to learn their base roles. Then comes learning how to be hybrid, carrying multiple armor sets, swapping out abilities and cp per situation, etc. It's not something people can do on day one... but anyone who knows what they are doing can be pretty self reliant with only a couple of tweaks. If one doesn't have the patience to do this while learning to be a tank and healer, they should make an Armory build for other scenarios or a DPS character. My two cents.



PS. I actually disagree with the stance below even more. This type of limiting thought process would also make this game very "blah." I have been here since launch and have soloed all kinds of things creatively as a tank or healer. It's part of becoming a better player.

jaws343 wrote: »

Tanks/healers should not be able to do solo overland content at all, let alone any significant amount of damage in non solo content.

Switch your gear and skills and stop trying to do solo content in tank setups. Tanks/Healers are literally group support builds. If you aren't in a group those builds shouldn't be viable.

I mostly take this hard line of a stance on it due to the various threads over the last few years that have argued for lowering the difficulty levels of solo arenas so that their 60K health tank build doing 5K DPS could clear the content. It's absurd. It's great if you can do it within the current limitations of the builds, but it's threads like this, where players refuse to make the changes to their build in order to do solo content properly and then complain when that content is difficult or near impossible for them to do. The fact is, even if it can be done in a tedious and long drawn out way, tanks are not meant to do solo content, they are meant to be group support roles.

100% agree. Said it many times. Tanks, Healers and DPS are all roles that only make sense in group content. If you are not in a group, you aren't any of those specifically, you are ALL of those.

You are going to have the aggro, you need to heal yourself when you take damage, and you need to put out enough DPS to kill things. You need to make tradeoffs when you are solo. I have zero sympathy whatsoever for tanks/healers that refuse to adapt their roles when they are alone. My trial DPS doesnt complain when I need to run a shield/heal, extra sustain, or whatever other changes I make when I run VMA. And I would never expect to take my tank through a solo arena without some serious changes to gear and skills. Simply put, if you don't adapt your build to the content at hand, you arent doing it right.

To the OP. I disagree across the board.

Ksariyu

@jaws343 You say "gut" like solo builds aren't already capable of putting out 3x as much damage as a tank. Honestly if a full DPS spec had the current solo damage output, that'd still be more than enough to clear any content in the game.

jaws343

Ksariyu wrote: »

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of what I'm getting here is that people prefer stat-based difficulty vs. skill-based difficulty. Currently, the way you engage content is by switching between sets and abilities, rather than switching how you approach a situation with the same sets and abilities.

And hey, I'll take the L on this if that's really what everyone feels. It just seems backwards to me. I'd much rather be able to dump time into one spec and learn it well enough to complete all content, and have swapping specs be like learning a new way to complete the same content.

But you can already do that. Literally, solo builds do this. They have average dps and average survivability. And with a few, very few, skill or 1 gear set change, they can swap between all three roles effectively.

Take my solo sorc build.
Sets: Mothers Sorrow, Maelstrom staff, False God.
Skills: Shields, self heal, spammable, AOEs, frags.

To make it a workable tank build: Switch front bar to sword and shield, remove spammable and replace with taunt. Swap MS with something like Plague doctor for health or just change the food. Boom, that build can tank every dungeon and normal trials.

To make it a workable healer: Change front bar to restro staff. Replace shields with sorc healing pet. Replace spamable with healing springs. Boom, workable healer for most content.

To make a pure DPS: Replace shields with passive buff skills. Replace False God with Siroria (or any other major dps set)

Sure, those three builds are not optimal for the roles, but, a skilled player can take those small switches and make them work properly. And of course, more optimized builds across all skills and gear are going to perform better. And of course, my Solo build can handle all solo content, including every world boss (minus the ones with lockdown mechanics that require a scond player), most vet dungeons solo, arena all achievement clears, etc, etc. Being able to do vet dungeons alone on a solo build proves the point that a pure tank needing to do damage is unnecessary. And the idea that needing to switch a few skills and a gear set is inherently bad is just misguided.

Ksariyu

@Oreyn_Bearclaw The point I keep trying to make is that you adapt how you play. You shouldn't have to adapt your whole build. Yes, as a tank in group content I will spend more time blocking, interrupting, chaining, CCing or whatever else a tank does. But then to play solo content I have to spend more time dealing damage and healing/sustaining myself because I don't have those players with me. A DPS however does the same thing in both types of content. They block when absolutely necessary, they stay out of stupid, and they parse. Once again, the difference in what a DPS has to do to swap content is nothing compared to tanks and supports, because it's so easy to do a DPS's job without help.

@jaws343 So, you say, "You can already do that," then immediately show how you have to swap skills and gear. But this also goes back to my point from before.

Ksariyu wrote: »

As for DPS and solo builds, notice how much overlap there is to a DPS and solo build compared to a tank or healer and a solo. You swap out maybe 2-3 skills and a couple sets for DPS. For tank or healer you're swapping weapon types, armor types, 5-7 skills and all of your sets. It's not even comparable. You can for the most part solo with a pure DPS build if you're good. You cannot solo with a tank or healer build.

So starting with the extra gear, a player needs to grind out levels in weapon skills they wouldn't use for overland to get into group content as a tank or healer. The wouldn't use these weapons for overland because they're garbage compared to the DPS weapons. This puts an unnecessary roadblock to learning these skill lines while discouraging newer players from trying those roles.

But more importantly, your comparison between swapping roles ignores the massive difference in what you can hope to complete with each build. Even if you didn't swap skills or gear at all, your solo build could still do enough DPS to complete vet trials. Swap two skills and an armor set and you're ready for prog groups.

Compare that to tank and healer. With the swaps you show, you can be a "meh" tank or healer. You could complete normal trials (Though good luck getting a group to take you if they don't already know you), but you'd be missing out on 50% of what these roles are expected to provide in a group. It's unlikely you'd be able to get through vet trials, and you most certainly would not be allowed in an organized group. All that and you're still required to farm alternative weapon types just to compete.

The barrier to entry for these roles is not skill, it's gear, and that's boring. It's also boring that a third of weapon types are unsuited for solo content. These problems do not exist for DPS players, despite DPS also being a group role.

jaws343 wrote: »

Being able to do vet dungeons alone on a solo build proves the point that a pure tank needing to do damage is unnecessary. And the idea that needing to switch a few skills and a gear set is inherently bad is just misguided.

I'd argue that being able to do vet dungeons alone on a solo build proves that it's ridiculous that a tank can't do damage. And the idea that you should need to switch gear sets is just misguided (We can both state our opinion as fact I guess).

El_Borracho

If you had a tank that could deal the damage of a middling DD, why would anyone be anything but a tank? Pass

jaws343

Ksariyu wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw The point I keep trying to make is that you adapt how you play. You shouldn't have to adapt your whole build. Yes, as a tank in group content I will spend more time blocking, interrupting, chaining, CCing or whatever else a tank does. But then to play solo content I have to spend more time dealing damage and healing/sustaining myself because I don't have those players with me. A DPS however does the same thing in both types of content. They block when absolutely necessary, they stay out of stupid, and they parse. Once again, the difference in what a DPS has to do to swap content is nothing compared to tanks and supports, because it's so easy to do a DPS's job without help.

@jaws343 So, you say, "You can already do that," then immediately show how you have to swap skills and gear. But this also goes back to my point from before.

Ksariyu wrote: »

As for DPS and solo builds, notice how much overlap there is to a DPS and solo build compared to a tank or healer and a solo. You swap out maybe 2-3 skills and a couple sets for DPS. For tank or healer you're swapping weapon types, armor types, 5-7 skills and all of your sets. It's not even comparable. You can for the most part solo with a pure DPS build if you're good. You cannot solo with a tank or healer build.

So starting with the extra gear, a player needs to grind out levels in weapon skills they wouldn't use for overland to get into group content as a tank or healer. The wouldn't use these weapons for overland because they're garbage compared to the DPS weapons. This puts an unnecessary roadblock to learning these skill lines while discouraging newer players from trying those roles.

But more importantly, your comparison between swapping roles ignores the massive difference in what you can hope to complete with each build. Even if you didn't swap skills or gear at all, your solo build could still do enough DPS to complete vet trials. Swap two skills and an armor set and you're ready for prog groups.

Compare that to tank and healer. With the swaps you show, you can be a "meh" tank or healer. You could complete normal trials (Though good luck getting a group to take you if they don't already know you), but you'd be missing out on 50% of what these roles are expected to provide in a group. It's unlikely you'd be able to get through vet trials, and you most certainly would not be allowed in an organized group. All that and you're still required to farm alternative weapon types just to compete.

The barrier to entry for these roles is not skill, it's gear, and that's boring. It's also boring that a third of weapon types are unsuited for solo content. These problems do not exist for DPS players, despite DPS also being a group role.

jaws343 wrote: »

Being able to do vet dungeons alone on a solo build proves the point that a pure tank needing to do damage is unnecessary. And the idea that needing to switch a few skills and a gear set is inherently bad is just misguided.

I'd argue that being able to do vet dungeons alone on a solo build proves that it's ridiculous that a tank can't do damage. And the idea that you should need to switch gear sets is just misguided (We can both state our opinion as fact I guess).

I'm only going to respond to your first bit about the "You can already do that" comment. I literally said that a solo build does exactly what you want. It provides tankiness to tank dungeons, as well as dps and healing to do damage and keep yourself alive.

My examples of simple swapping of gear and skills was to show that you are overblowing this idea that you have to do drastic things to change up builds.

At the end of the day, you seem to want to be able to take a trials tank or healer into solo content and be able to clear it while doing DPS levels of damage, which is beyond a terrible idea. It's awful. Why would anyone ever sacrifice anything to make a build and actual use skill to use said build, when they can slap on 50K health, and entire TRIALS tank set up, and then spit out enough dps to solo a dungeon. It's stupid, and would provide awful balance to the games. Tanks should not be able to tank Vet Trials and then also put out significant damage without being forced to make sacrifices.

Ksariyu

@El_Borracho Because the damage of a DPS who is enabled by a tank would still be higher than having a second tank.

jaws343

You know what, also, you are complaining about having to learn skill lines in order to respec.. So what. Learn the skill lines, it's so easy to do. You can fully skill up a character from creation to learning all class and weapon lines within a week.

LashanW

Ksariyu wrote: »

In general, the goal would be to redistribute and ultimately lower the access to power-gaining buffs, while also providing bonuses to players who properly play their class/role and to groups who coordinate their members well.
-Remove most if not all self-targeting damage buffs. This would include things like Brutality from Momentum, Shrouded Daggers, and Power Surge, or Savagery from Jabs and Flames of Oblivion. To include things like Force, Courage, Berserk, etc.
-Give support lines more group-wide buffs, including more group sources of Brutality and Savagery. Things like Lotus or Drain Power could provide their buffs to the group instead of just the caster. Increase potency of these buffs.
-Cut back sources of debuffs, and limit them mostly to support skill lines.

Some specific ideas:
-1H/Shield passive: Interrupting an enemy increases your damage for x seconds.
-1H/Shield passive: Blocking grants a stacking buff that increases the damage of your next attack (Basically take Power Bash and make it a passive)
-1H/Shield: Replace Power Bash with an execute.
-1H/Shield: Shield Charge now interrupts casting targets and stuns for less time.
-NB Shadow passive: Dodging an attack increases your damage for x seconds per shadow skill equipped.
-NB Siphoning passive: Increase damage against target for each debuff on them.
-Restoration: Replace Force Siphon with a spammable damage ability.
-Restoration: Healing Springs restores resources to the group.

Dude, group content is my jam here. More than half of my total playtime is spent on that (so that's over 4k hours). It's designed well and it works. I cannot even remotely understand how someone well versed in PvE endgame (that include solo vet arenas) could think those ideas are anywhere good. So my guess is you are not used to how PvE endgame works here.

How do you even lock important buffs and debuffs to support roles? Only way to do that is to dump that stuff into sword and shield, resto staff and heavy armor skill lines. And support sets. Everything else is easily accessible to DDs. It's a major rework, especially since potions are also in the picture.

Only thing this would accomplish is making solo gameplay a pain in the butt and playing support roles in group content even more restricting. A lot of effort to make the game less enjoyable.

Ksariyu wrote: »

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of what I'm getting here is that people prefer stat-based difficulty vs. skill-based difficulty. Currently, the way you engage content is by switching between sets and abilities, rather than switching how you approach a situation with the same sets and abilities.

A character has 12 equipment slots (2 weapon bars) and 12 skill slots. This game has over 500 sets and over 190 skills spanning 6 playable classes and 6 weapon types. So yeah, that is exactly how ESO is designed to be played.

Arunei

Ksariyu wrote: »

@HaruKamui Sorry, guess I missed your first reply. So I'll start there.
The problem with just switching builds is it then limits your ability to be an effective tank for your team. And I don't mean this in the sense of personal survivability, but in the tank-utility you grant your allies. You're making your team weaker to cover up their weaknesses, which makes no sense.

I think this might be the main problem you're having. You want the same build to be able to do the same thing, even though overland, dungeons, trials, and PvP are all different things that require different builds. Making a solo build shouldn't mean not being able to do group content; you just literally switch builds. When you go from group content to solo switch to your solo build. When you want to do group content you don't just stay on your solo build, you swap to your group one. Therefore switching builds doesn't impact either your group content or solo content performance.