Modernizing Roles for ESO in 2022

Ksariyu

@jaws343 Your first statement showed that you can be tanky enough to tank a dungeon. It however showed that you CANNOT be a tank without making swaps. Do you understand the difference between being tanky and actually being a tank?

I do not want a full tank build to do a full DPS build's damage. I want a full tank build to do a solo character's damage. Why, you ask? Why would ANYONE pick a DPS if a tank could do literally any damage? Because a DPS would be better suited to take advantage of the benefits provided by a tank than a second tank would. A DPS wouldn't have to interrupt anything, they wouldn't be the target of big hits, they could just focus on damage. This is already how the game works.

My problem is that a full tank or healer build puts you in the passenger seat during group content. Yes, you can be responsible for the car crashing, but you'll never be the one driving the team home. As a result, you cannot do solo content on a tank or healer build. By contrast, as a DPS, you complete the objective by killing things. You do all the damage and determine when the fight ends and how easy it is. And in return, you can also do all solo content with little to no change in your build.

As for "just learn everything." [snip] Some people play the game to play the game, not to grind arbitrary numbers.

[edited for minor baiting]

Arunei

Also most DPS are actually pretty squishy, they rarely go above like 18k health and often don't have very good Resists because they aren't running full Heavy Armor and tanking CP. So the point about DPS being able to tank as well isn't exactly true for most DPS players. DPS focus on burning stuff down BEFORE it can hit them enough to kill them, which is why they rarely try to spec into survivability unless it's a vet arena or a vet HM trial or some other content where they need it. And even then in that case they'll typically swap around skills and maybe even some CP and gear, they won't always use the same build for every piece of content they do.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Ksariyu wrote: »

@jaws343 Your first statement showed that you can be tanky enough to tank a dungeon. It however showed that you CANNOT be a tank without making swaps. Do you understand the difference between being tanky and actually being a tank?

I do not want a full tank build to do a full DPS build's damage. I want a full tank build to do a solo character's damage. Why, you ask? Why would ANYONE pick a DPS if a tank could do literally any damage? Because a DPS would be better suited to take advantage of the benefits provided by a tank than a second tank would. A DPS wouldn't have to interrupt anything, they wouldn't be the target of big hits, they could just focus on damage. This is already how the game works.

My problem is that a full tank or healer build puts you in the passenger seat during group content. Yes, you can be responsible for the car crashing, but you'll never be the one driving the team home. As a result, you cannot do solo content on a tank or healer build. By contrast, as a DPS, you complete the objective by killing things. You do all the damage and determine when the fight ends and how easy it is. And in return, you can also do all solo content with little to no change in your build.

As for "just learn everything." [snip] Some people play the game to play the game, not to grind arbitrary numbers.

Its a simple distinction. If you arent in a group, you arent a tank. Period.

Tanky is more subjective, when solo, because you need to make tradeoffs, you should endeavor to be as tanky as you need without going overboard, so you can devote resources to damage or heals. Just like a DPS needs to be tankier when they dont have support.

If tanks could do DPS level damage, balance would be destroyed, and everyone would run a build like that. PVP would be a nightmare. In 4 man, everyone would just run four tanks. Even as you suggest that a DPS would still potentially do more damage, who would care. Just run 60 health and never die. Trifectas would be easy mode. Allowing tanks to do even half the damage of a Meta DPS would ruin the game over night.

[edited to remove quote]

jaws343

Ksariyu wrote: »

@jaws343 Your first statement showed that you can be tanky enough to tank a dungeon. It however showed that you CANNOT be a tank without making swaps. Do you understand the difference between being tanky and actually being a tank?

I do not want a full tank build to do a full DPS build's damage. I want a full tank build to do a solo character's damage. Why, you ask? Why would ANYONE pick a DPS if a tank could do literally any damage? Because a DPS would be better suited to take advantage of the benefits provided by a tank than a second tank would. A DPS wouldn't have to interrupt anything, they wouldn't be the target of big hits, they could just focus on damage. This is already how the game works.

My problem is that a full tank or healer build puts you in the passenger seat during group content. Yes, you can be responsible for the car crashing, but you'll never be the one driving the team home. As a result, you cannot do solo content on a tank or healer build. By contrast, as a DPS, you complete the objective by killing things. You do all the damage and determine when the fight ends and how easy it is. And in return, you can also do all solo content with little to no change in your build.

As for "just learn everything." [snip] Some people play the game to play the game, not to grind arbitrary numbers.

100%, if I could equip full tank gear in full tank skill loadout and push out the same 45K DPS that my solo build pushes out, why would I ever run my extremely skillful to play solo build again. I wouldn't. I would run the build that could tank a vet trial and also spit out 45K DPS.

And that is the problem. A tank build should not come anywhere close to a solo build in DPS, at all. Just like a solo build is tanky, but not anywhere near as tanky as a full tank build.

And yeah, again, just learn the skill lines. It's far easier than trying to advocate for an insane change to combat balance in the game.

[edited to remove quote]

jaws343

Also, can I request that you stop directly tagging me. It's not necessary. Just quote my comment and reply to it. No need to jam up my notifications for a simple forum conversation.

xaraan

I've tanked from launch and never once did I venture out solo to go questing in my full tanking gear. It's not hard to carry a few pieces of extra gear for doing damage, I have some generic DPS gear and staves, throw that on, don't bother changing anything else (mundus/CP/stats/whatever) and it's perfectly fine for questing. (No Armory needed). But, you can't be "as good as" or even close to a full DPS build in a support setup without really messing up the balance of the game. Then everyone would just play a tanky charater that does damage instead of just a damage character. Even my solo DPS builds are quite a bit different than my group DPS builds that expect to get resource and healing help in a group. The same applies to my support builds when they put their solo gear on - they are no longer tanks or healers, even if their CP and stats might be stacked a bit toward that still.

The only thing messing up the balance of the trinity concept is that older dungeons have never been rebalanced. And newer ones continue to be made to make up for the complaints that tanks/healers aren't needed by really making certain things punishing to require those roles. So there is a huge balance issue between OG dungeons and newer ones. They can't scrap the concept b/c of the design of current trials/dungeons usually needing them. Personally, as long as they make the new dungeons the way they do, they should go back and revisit the difficulty on the older ones as well. But there is no money to be made fixing stuff we already bought, so it probably won't happen.

But this is what you are seeing I think. A tank very much spends time in addition to buffing and supporting their team, taking big hits in newer trials and dungeons, stuff that would one-shot a build that wasn't stacked in health and armor and blocking. And in fact, in content where you are not required to do that anymore, you can essentially already do what you are saying and build a quasi-tank that focuses on just holding aggro, being just tanky enough but then putting the rest into damage and other buffs to help with DPS.

It sounds like (and I know I'm assuming here) that maybe you don't do a lot of end-game HM trials or new dungeons, nor much PvP. Frankly, if someone doesn't consistently participate in every facet of the game like that, they are going to have trouble coming up with ideas of how to truly improve balance b/c it will only focus on one aspect of the game. Because some of the changes in the thread would wildly effect PvP and possibly even PvE group content balance it's not intended to effect. In the end, anything done to make a tank do better damage while they are built like a tank (whether it's through sheer output of abilities or some other effect that allows their damage to be higher) will have everyone just running tank/damage builds instead of actually building for a role.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Ksariyu wrote: »

@jaws343 Your first statement showed that you can be tanky enough to tank a dungeon. It however showed that you CANNOT be a tank without making swaps. Do you understand the difference between being tanky and actually being a tank?

I do not want a full tank build to do a full DPS build's damage. I want a full tank build to do a solo character's damage. Why, you ask? Why would ANYONE pick a DPS if a tank could do literally any damage? Because a DPS would be better suited to take advantage of the benefits provided by a tank than a second tank would. A DPS wouldn't have to interrupt anything, they wouldn't be the target of big hits, they could just focus on damage. This is already how the game works.

My problem is that a full tank or healer build puts you in the passenger seat during group content. Yes, you can be responsible for the car crashing, but you'll never be the one driving the team home. As a result, you cannot do solo content on a tank or healer build. By contrast, as a DPS, you complete the objective by killing things. You do all the damage and determine when the fight ends and how easy it is. And in return, you can also do all solo content with little to no change in your build.

As for "just learn everything." [snip] Some people play the game to play the game, not to grind arbitrary numbers.

How are skill lines arbitrary numbers? Sure if you want to grind a skill or weapon line its easy to do, but you can also play the game and level as you go without grinding. You may not be as effective early on, but that is how all characters level. Most weapon/skill lines can be leveled passively while playing if you want. Want to learn a 2H or Destro on you tank? Put a 2H skill or two on your front bar, the line will level up plenty fast as you gain XP, dont even need to equip the weapon.

I have 18 toons. Every single one has all their class lines leveled, fighters guild leveled, and at least 2 weapons leveled by the time they hit 50, because I level them efficiently. Most have mages guild as well. If I need something specific like psijic order, well I level it. Thats the game. If I decide I need another weapon, well put a skill from the weapon line on my bar until the skill line gets high enough that I can actually start playing with it effectively. Most of my older toons have all the weapon lines leveled, its easy to do. During the event last weekend, I leveled 3 weapon lines on my necro in an hour of grinding. It is really not a massive undertaking. Both my NB and DK have every skill in the game leveled to at least morph status, and every line at 50. Most I never use, but as I play, i just keep one slot for a skill that needs leveled unless I am in very difficult content. When I do things like master writs (which give a ton of XP), I am careful to slot all skills that need leveling when I turn in the quests.

[edited to remove quote]

SweetrollHoarder

Ksariyu wrote: »

TLDR: Skill-lines for tank and support roles should include more options to increase independent damage output, and characters in general should be more self-reliant.


If you read all this, thanks for taking the time and interest, and I'd welcome your thoughts and opinions.

I have to say I think this is a good thought in theory but in practice with Western MMOs this never ends well. Just look at WoW and how homogenized everything became. I love ESO because all of my characters feel different in their roles.

Agenericname

Ksariyu wrote: »

I do not want a full tank build to do a full DPS build's damage. I want a full tank build to do a solo character's damage. Why, you ask? Why would ANYONE pick a DPS if a tank could do literally any damage? Because a DPS would be better suited to take advantage of the benefits provided by a tank than a second tank would. A DPS wouldn't have to interrupt anything, they wouldn't be the target of big hits, they could just focus on damage. This is already how the game works.

My problem is that a full tank or healer build puts you in the passenger seat during group content. Yes, you can be responsible for the car crashing, but you'll never be the one driving the team home. As a result, you cannot do solo content on a tank or healer build. By contrast, as a DPS, you complete the objective by killing things. You do all the damage and determine when the fight ends and how easy it is. And in return, you can also do all solo content with little to no change in your build.

As for "just learn everything." [snip] Some people play the game to play the game, not to grind arbitrary numbers.

In what content? Do you already interrupt the necrotic swarm as the tank or taunt the colossus in vFL? Or do the healers and DDs take care of that on their own? Interrupt the Ogre while they're calling skeevers in vSCP? Take the portals in vDSA? MHK?

[edited to remove quote]

Ksariyu

Lots of replies with similar arguments, so I'll stagger my response here.

LashanW wrote: »

Dude, group content is my jam here. More than half of my total playtime is spent on that (so that's over 4k hours). It's designed well and it works. I cannot even remotely understand how someone well versed in PvE endgame (that include solo vet arenas) could think those ideas are anywhere good. So my guess is you are not used to how PvE endgame works here.

Memes lol. Your argument here is "I don't understand so you're wrong."

LashanW wrote: »

How do you even lock important buffs and debuffs to support roles? Only way to do that is to dump that stuff into sword and shield, resto staff and heavy armor skill lines. And support sets. Everything else is easily accessible to DDs. It's a major rework, especially since potions are also in the picture.

You remove buffs and debuffs to support oriented skill lines and remove it from DPS oriented skill lines. It's in both the quote and your own argument. Potions would be included in "self-targeting" sources. You would use potions for resource regen, not buffs.

LashanW wrote: »

A character has 12 equipment slots (2 weapon bars) and 12 skill slots. This game has over 500 sets and over 190 skills spanning 6 playable classes and 6 weapon types. So yeah, that is exactly how ESO is designed to be played.

How many of those sets and skills share effects/mechanics? How many of those sets and skills are not used in ANY content? There are a lot of names and visuals, not a lot of actual gameplay-affecting changes.

Arunei wrote: »

You want the same build to be able to do the same thing, even though overland, dungeons, trials, and PvP are all different things that require different builds.

They're not really different though. It's combat. The goal of all of those activities is to kill your opponent and not be killed. Crafting is a different thing (And could use some love). Gathering is a different thing (And could use some love). Solo arenas and group arenas really aren't that different.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Even as you suggest that a DPS would still potentially do more damage, who would care. Just run 60 health and never die. Trifectas would be easy mode. Allowing tanks to do even half the damage of a Meta DPS would ruin the game over night.

Do trifectas no longer contain speed requirements? Surely if you were giving up damage dealers to have 12 tanks you wouldn't be as fast as a proper group would you? So I'm guessing you wouldn't be getting those speed runs quite so easily then. I'd say ruining the game overnight is a pretty dramatic overstatement.

jaws343 wrote: »

100%, if I could equip full tank gear in full tank skill loadout and push out the same 45K DPS that my solo build pushes out, why would I ever run my extremely skillful to play solo build again. I wouldn't. I would run the build that could tank a vet trial and also spit out 45K DPS.

Well yeah, that's half of my argument. You wouldn't be required to run a special solo build for solo content, you could just take your build and play the game. I do think there is a problem though if you believe your solo build requires more skill than group play. Guess the latter needs some looking at if that's really the case.

xaraan wrote: »

And newer ones continue to be made to make up for the complaints that tanks/healers aren't needed by really making certain things punishing to require those roles.

Unfortunately they way they're doing this is further promoting stat-stacking, rather than mechanics. Don't have 43.5k HP? Can't survive this attack under any circumstance. That doesn't require skill it just requires stats.

xaraan wrote: »

Frankly, if someone doesn't consistently participate in every facet of the game like that, they are going to have trouble coming up with ideas of how to truly improve balance b/c it will only focus on one aspect of the game. Because some of the changes in the thread would wildly effect PvP and possibly even PvE group content balance it's not intended to effect. In the end, anything done to make a tank do better damage while they are built like a tank (whether it's through sheer output of abilities or some other effect that allows their damage to be higher) will have everyone just running tank/damage builds instead of actually building for a role.

Considering that no part of PvP is balanced right now and much of PvE is being run by 8 ranged DDs, I'd say it's okay if things get shaken up a little. The idea though is that, in a group situation, you will always be better off having designated roles, both PvE and PvP. The advantages these roles provide however will be more specific and better rewarded, providing better balance between the roles in solo content.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

How are skill lines arbitrary numbers?

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Put a 2H skill or two on your front bar, the line will level up plenty fast as you gain XP, dont even need to equip the weapon.

That's how. Skill line progress is not an indication of how well you use the skills, but rather of how long you've known they existed. Just the fact that you can level a skill line from 2-50 without even using the weapon shows just how arbitrary they are.

Agenericname wrote: »

In what content? Do you already interrupt the necrotic swarm as the tank or taunt the colossus in vFL? Or do the healers and DDs take care of that on their own? Interrupt the Ogre while they're calling skeevers in vSCP? Take the portals in vDSA? MHK?

This particularly applies to "parse-like" scenarios. It's a good thing that there are special mechanics for DPS to react to (There are in solo arenas as well). But during parts where the DPS are just putting out damage, the boss is still attacking, and him focusing the tank rather than the DPS is obviously better for them.

HowlKimchi

Ksariyu wrote: »

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of what I'm getting here is that people prefer stat-based difficulty vs. skill-based difficulty. Currently, the way you engage content is by switching between sets and abilities, rather than switching how you approach a situation with the same sets and abilities.

And hey, I'll take the L on this if that's really what everyone feels. It just seems backwards to me. I'd much rather be able to dump time into one spec and learn it well enough to complete all content, and have swapping specs be like learning a new way to complete the same content.

You are wrong. It’s a mix of both stat based and skill based difficulty. Just because you have the right skills and sets doesnt mean you can automatically do the hard content. You still have to be skilled enough.

Again, your last comment reaaaaally makes me want to recommend that you try out a different game that isnt as flexible and theorycraft focused as ESO since a big draw of the game is how fun you can customize your character for different situations.

Maybe try out GW2 or FFXIV? Especially the latter. Tanks and healers there all have a rigid rotation that can do all content.

Because to me, all your suggestions do is ruin unique skill lines by making it all damage lines.

Utility lines, tanking lines, and healing lines are there for theor specific purpose. Dps lines exist and you can mix and match. Also if you’re on PC, there’s a dressing room addon that lets you swap gear and skills with a push of a button.

the1andonlyskwex

Ksariyu wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

Dude, group content is my jam here. More than half of my total playtime is spent on that (so that's over 4k hours). It's designed well and it works. I cannot even remotely understand how someone well versed in PvE endgame (that include solo vet arenas) could think those ideas are anywhere good. So my guess is you are not used to how PvE endgame works here.

Memes lol. Your argument here is "I don't understand so you're wrong."

I think the argument was "I don't understand how someone could have such a bad idea", not "I don't understand the idea".

Ksariyu wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

How do you even lock important buffs and debuffs to support roles? Only way to do that is to dump that stuff into sword and shield, resto staff and heavy armor skill lines. And support sets. Everything else is easily accessible to DDs. It's a major rework, especially since potions are also in the picture.

You remove buffs and debuffs to support oriented skill lines and remove it from DPS oriented skill lines. It's in both the quote and your own argument. Potions would be included in "self-targeting" sources. You would use potions for resource regen, not buffs.

What do you mean by "support oriented skill lines"? Currently, the only skill lines that DPS characters can't easily access are 1h+shield and restoration staff, and half of your proposal involves turning them into DPS weapons.

Arunei

OP your problem is you're using solo content as an excuse to not have a true tank or healer build because somehow swapping your builds between solo and group content is too hard, and even though you're perfectly capable of swapping builds between solo and group content you simply refuse to do so. That's not a problem with the game, that's simply you wanting to have a tank who can kill things as fast as a DPS.

What people are trying to tell you is that would never work, and people wouldn't even use healers any longer either. Again, why would you if you already have a tanky build that can't die and can dish out endgame DPS? There would be no need for healers, no need for pure DPS. The game would become Elder Tanks Online.

The solution to your problem is simple: Swap your builds between content. If you don't want to do that, that's something you'll have to deal with. It's not a problem that needs addressing by anyone else. The game was never designed for one build to be able to do everything. That's one reason they introduced the Armory, to make swapping between builds easier (even tho I think some addons still do it better, as well as for free).

The existence of the Armory itself is proof that the devs never intended for any build to be a "one and done" thing. You are MEANT to swap builds, not try to force the same build to fit for all content. It's like trying to make a square peg fit into all the other shaped holes just because you don't want to bother sorting through them all.

Arthtur

And here i am, tanking vet Dlc dungeons on my DD with 19k HP...
Skill is more important than gear in this game. Even the best gear wont beat the game for you.

As for tank doing damage... What's the point? For overland its just easier to swap gear. Even if they would give damage to tanks it would still be easier with just swapping gear.
Lets not even talk about problems with balance in PvP...

FeedbackOnly

I a healer because I like to heal not di damage

LashanW

Ksariyu wrote: »

I'd much rather be able to dump time into one spec and learn it well enough to complete all content, and have swapping specs be like learning a new way to complete the same content.

I have done Scalecaller Peak challenger achievement in all 3 roles. (trifecta only on DD tho). Playing the same content in a different role IS a unique and new experience. And I love that. That increases the replayability of the game. You don't want to or can't spend the time and effort to learn different roles and want to stick to one build? well that still sounds like a you problem. I can only say what some have already said, perhaps you might want to look elsewhere.

Ksariyu wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Even as you suggest that a DPS would still potentially do more damage, who would care. Just run 60 health and never die. Trifectas would be easy mode. Allowing tanks to do even half the damage of a Meta DPS would ruin the game over night.

Do trifectas no longer contain speed requirements? Surely if you were giving up damage dealers to have 12 tanks you wouldn't be as fast as a proper group would you? So I'm guessing you wouldn't be getting those speed runs quite so easily then. I'd say ruining the game overnight is a pretty dramatic overstatement.

It would have much more of an impact in dungeons.
Imagine traditional trinity dungeon group dps (numbers are just examples),
Tank: 5k dps
DD: 2x 90k dps
Healer: 15k dps
Group dps would be 200k and everyone will have to play their part carefully for a trifecta because the DDs and healer could die easily.

Imagine a 4 tank group (say each tank can do 50k dps, which is 55% of a fully specced DD in above example),
Tank: 4x 50k dps
Group dps would still be 200k and they'll just yolo through the dungeon and get the trifecta.

Ksariyu wrote: »

Lots of replies with similar arguments, so I'll stagger my response here.

LashanW wrote: »

Dude, group content is my jam here. More than half of my total playtime is spent on that (so that's over 4k hours). It's designed well and it works. I cannot even remotely understand how someone well versed in PvE endgame (that include solo vet arenas) could think those ideas are anywhere good. So my guess is you are not used to how PvE endgame works here.

Memes lol. Your argument here is "I don't understand so you're wrong."

LashanW wrote: »

How do you even lock important buffs and debuffs to support roles? Only way to do that is to dump that stuff into sword and shield, resto staff and heavy armor skill lines. And support sets. Everything else is easily accessible to DDs. It's a major rework, especially since potions are also in the picture.

You remove buffs and debuffs to support oriented skill lines and remove it from DPS oriented skill lines. It's in both the quote and your own argument. Potions would be included in "self-targeting" sources. You would use potions for resource regen, not buffs.

Oh I understand.

I understand that your suggestions would drastically nerf solo builds and DD builds in unoptimized groups, it would buff support role's dps output but at the expense of restricting their options even further in group content. I understand that you don't care one bit about the impact this would have on PvP and is perfectly fine with having PvP players' fun ruined. I understand that you don't mind having the entire alchemy system nerfed, because there's so many various buffs/debuffs and other effects potions and poisons currently can provide.

All because you can't be bothered to change your gear and skills to play different parts of the game, even though the game provides the tools to do so with a single button press.

I also understand that you have no clue about how top tier DDs play the game. They run completely different setups for trash fights and boss fights even within same trial. They change gear, skills and even CP slottables depending on the encounter. But you can't be bothered to do that.

Amottica

jaws343 wrote: »

Ksariyu wrote: »

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of what I'm getting here is that people prefer stat-based difficulty vs. skill-based difficulty. Currently, the way you engage content is by switching between sets and abilities, rather than switching how you approach a situation with the same sets and abilities.

And hey, I'll take the L on this if that's really what everyone feels. It just seems backwards to me. I'd much rather be able to dump time into one spec and learn it well enough to complete all content, and have swapping specs be like learning a new way to complete the same content.

But you can already do that. Literally, solo builds do this. They have average dps and average survivability. And with a few, very few, skill or 1 gear set change, they can swap between all three roles effectively.

Take my solo sorc build.
Sets: Mothers Sorrow, Maelstrom staff, False God.
Skills: Shields, self heal, spammable, AOEs, frags.

To make it a workable tank build: Switch front bar to sword and shield, remove spammable and replace with taunt. Swap MS with something like Plague doctor for health or just change the food. Boom, that build can tank every dungeon and normal trials.

To make it a workable healer: Change front bar to restro staff. Replace shields with sorc healing pet. Replace spamable with healing springs. Boom, workable healer for most content.

To make a pure DPS: Replace shields with passive buff skills. Replace False God with Siroria (or any other major dps set)

Sure, those three builds are not optimal for the roles, but, a skilled player can take those small switches and make them work properly. And of course, more optimized builds across all skills and gear are going to perform better. And of course, my Solo build can handle all solo content, including every world boss (minus the ones with lockdown mechanics that require a scond player), most vet dungeons solo, arena all achievement clears, etc, etc. Being able to do vet dungeons alone on a solo build proves the point that a pure tank needing to do damage is unnecessary. And the idea that needing to switch a few skills and a gear set is inherently bad is just misguided.

This is essentially what I mentioned before, though I did not go into detail. While I do swap gear, I change one bar for DPS and keep the other bar for tanking. I use the armory which works great for this since I have one build saved for pure tanking and one for this questing build.

I have found the freedom of what we can create with our builds so very refreshing compared to other games. It is fabulous.

dmnqwk

ESO has low tank damage and no threat mechanic, it's part of the game and part of the identity, you have to adapt.

Each game has slight variations on how to tank.
Guild Wars (1, not 2) was was fairly simple, just show up and you're the tank (I loved stance tanking on my Ranger)
WoW seems homogenized but changed it's MO from being heavy on threat to being almost entirely damage-based (of course, Vengeance in Mists of Panderia let tanks sit down to be critted by bosses for more damage)
Dungeons and Dragons Online used damage to tank primarily, though the game went through several iterations (I tanked the hardest content in that game using a Thief-Acrobat with a quarterstaff... just because)
Swtor had few high threat moves and damage = threat multiplier for tanks but end-game was about using Taunt > AoE Taunt to ensure the DD threat drop kicked in and they wouldn't pull off you during their openers.

What they all have in common, however, is that I do content specced like a tank. I level as one, I do overland stuff as one, I do solo stuff as one. ESO IS NOT DIFFERENT. It took me longer in ESO to adapt, because the ratio of tank damage:DD damage is not usually so bad, but it's a fallacy to believe you cannot be a bonafide tank in ESO and NOT put out sufficient damage to enjoy yourself when alone.

As I've said before, my Warden does 12.5k single target permablocking but about 10k/mob AoE. This is with the same stuff I'd go tank a Trial in or Veteran Coral Aerie. I might switch an ult between horn and ice comet, and I might switch my Predator on both bars out for vines/bone shield but other than that it's the same tank, going out, doing tank things and walking up to any overland boss and soloing it without regret. (I have about 800 CP, for reference, so I cannot switch my slottables because I can barely afford all the slottables lol)

Oh I almost forgot, I tend to switch ranged taunt out for dive in solo arenas because it's only for a short time I stay at range enough to trigger the bleed part of it.

Ksariyu

HaruKamui wrote: »

You are wrong. It’s a mix of both stat based and skill based difficulty. Just because you have the right skills and sets doesnt mean you can automatically do the hard content. You still have to be skilled enough.

Again, your last comment reaaaaally makes me want to recommend that you try out a different game that isnt as flexible and theorycraft focused as ESO since a big draw of the game is how fun you can customize your character for different situations.

Maybe try out GW2 or FFXIV? Especially the latter. Tanks and healers there all have a rigid rotation that can do all content.

Because to me, all your suggestions do is ruin unique skill lines by making it all damage lines.

Utility lines, tanking lines, and healing lines are there for theor specific purpose. Dps lines exist and you can mix and match. Also if you’re on PC, there’s a dressing room addon that lets you swap gear and skills with a push of a button.

The difference is you can NOT be good enough to overcome stats. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, if your team doesn't reach the required HP or DPS thresholds, you're just going to die. The funny part is, this takes AWAY from theorycrafting; it's no longer "What interesting new build can I make to do this with?" but instead, "Oh well someone's already done the math for every fight in the game to say what's best, so I guess we'll all just go with that." There is no customization in a system that's so restrictive you have to swap gear on a fight-per-fight basis.

The other thing is my suggestions would actually make skill lines MORE unique. No more every-character-has-access-to-every-buff, and less cherry-picking skills across 5 lines, because each line would function more independently. The skill lines now have no uniqueness because they all have to fit into the meta defined by another skill line.

Arunei wrote: »

OP your problem is you're using solo content as an excuse

Mm, no. I'm also advocating for the real tanks and healers out there who hate pugging due to bad DPS. It was in the OP if you bothered to read.

Arunei wrote: »

that's simply you wanting to have a tank who can kill things as fast as a DPS.

Again, no. In solo content, sure, the two should be balanced, but in group content a DPS would still kill faster than a tank or healer.

Arunei wrote: »

What people are trying to tell you is that would never work, and people wouldn't even use healers any longer either. Again, why would you if you already have a tanky build that can't die and can dish out endgame DPS? There would be no need for healers, no need for pure DPS. The game would become Elder Tanks Online.

It's funny because no healer is already the standard outside of trials and vHMs. Part of this is because DPS can already bring so much of the utility that a healer normally would, so why bother? These suggestions aim to fix that.

Arunei wrote: »

The existence of the Armory itself is proof that the devs never intended for any build to be a "one and done" thing. You are MEANT to swap builds, not try to force the same build to fit for all content.

The Armory comes with two slots. Great for swapping roles if you like to play more than one. Not so great for swapping gear between literally every different encounter in the game. As I've said before, it was a cashgrab bandaid fix to a general problem. If players were meant to swap skills so frequently, why is a respec required just to change from Brawler to Carve?

Arthtur wrote: »

And here i am, tanking vet Dlc dungeons on my DD with 19k HP...
Skill is more important than gear in this game. Even the best gear wont beat the game for you.

As for tank doing damage... What's the point? For overland its just easier to swap gear. Even if they would give damage to tanks it would still be easier with just swapping gear.
Lets not even talk about problems with balance in PvP...

So thank you for kind of making my point. DPS is so much better than the other two roles it can more or less supersede them entirely with a skill swap or two. You don't have nearly that flexibility as a tank or healer.
As for PvP balance, my concept of the roles comes from PvP games, so no I'm not too worried about that. Right now ESO's PvP constantly fluctuates between burst DPS and perma-blocking tanks, so I also don't think there's a great balance to disrupt in any case.

LashanW wrote: »

Playing the same content in a different role IS a unique and new experience. And I love that. That increases the replayability of the game. You don't want to or can't spend the time and effort to learn different roles and want to stick to one build? well that still sounds like a you problem. I can only say what some have already said, perhaps you might want to look elsewhere.

Hey guess what, I love that too. Problem is that yes, swapping roles is a different experience. Swapping classes on the same role though? Not really. There are essentially three builds that get slight tweaks depending on the exact content. Not exactly a high level of replayability there.

LashanW wrote: »

Tank: 5k dps
DD: 2x 90k dps
Healer: 15k dps
Group dps would be 200k and everyone will have to play their part carefully for a trifecta because the DDs and healer could die easily.

Imagine a 4 tank group (say each tank can do 50k dps, which is 55% of a fully specced DD in above example),
Tank: 4x 50k dps
Group dps would still be 200k and they'll just yolo through the dungeon and get the trifecta.

Well I guess I see part of your misunderstanding. Because as I've stated a dozen times already, the point would NOT to be to make a squad of 4 tanks deal as much damage as a proper group. Picking random numbers to suit your argument doesn't make it an argument. For a four-man, it would be more like:
4 tanks = 200k DPS
4 damage = 200k DPS
4 supports = 200k DPS

Versus an optimized group:
1 tank = 40k DPS + 2 damage = 80k dps/each + 1 support = 40k DPS TOTAL: 240k DPS.

The damage dealers POTENTIAL is increased when they have A. Tanks creating space for them (Which drops the tank'ss DPS a bit because he's actively tanking), and B. Supports providing buffs and debuffs (Which drops their DPS a bit because they're actively buffing/healing the whole team). It does not however required tanks and supports play backseat to the "real stars" of DPS like we currently have.

LashanW wrote: »

Oh I understand.

I understand that your suggestions would drastically nerf solo builds and DD builds in unoptimized groups, it would buff support role's dps output but at the expense of restricting their options even further in group content. I understand that you don't care one bit about the impact this would have on PvP and is perfectly fine with having PvP players' fun ruined. I understand that you don't mind having the entire alchemy system nerfed, because there's so many various buffs/debuffs and other effects potions and poisons currently can provide.

Yeah, it would be a slight nerf to DPS in solo content. Considering all that we've talked about already with how DPS are better suited in every way towards solo content, I don't see how that's an issue. And yes, it would nerf their individual effectiveness in a group where the entire group is supposed to partake and be effective. Again, not seeing an issue, unless you really think only DPS should be able to carry a pug. No, I'm not particularly worried about the balance of a non-competitive game-mode that is perpetually critiqued for its complete lack of balance here on the forums either, and again I actually believe this would help make it MORE balanced and promote group play in a group setting. And finally no, I'm not worried about losing a bit of fluff from alchemy and opening it up to provide truly unique mechanics and buffs, rather than just being another source of the same buffs you can get from like, 15 other sources now. [snip]

LashanW wrote: »

I also understand that you have no clue about how top tier DDs play the game. They run completely different setups for trash fights and boss fights even within same trial. They change gear, skills and even CP slottables depending on the encounter. But you can't be bothered to do that.

Here's where you clearly don't understand. I do know how "top-tier" DDs play. I've played with trials guilds, I've watched guides from the best players. I fully understand that they swap gear literally per-fight. It's not that I can't be bothered to do it, it's that I think it diminishes the value of making choices in your character build, and drastically undermines the ability for characters to have a unique identity. Instead we just have a bunch of clones lugging around piles of the same gear.

Amottica wrote: »

I have found the freedom of what we can create with our builds so very refreshing compared to other games. It is fabulous.

I find this statement incredibly ironic since we're all discussing how linear the thought process is in making and endgame build in this game. Bring this gear for this fight, bring these skills for this fight, this content punishes these weapons. . . That's the exact opposite of freedom.

dmnqwk wrote: »

ESO has low tank damage and no threat mechanic, it's part of the game and part of the identity, you have to adapt.

"No threat mechanic." Literally guaranteed taunt skills. There isn't a more simplistic threat mechanic in existence. That said, the fact that all taunts in the game are deliberately single-target highlights the fact that even in group play, the combat was meant to be more individually based. Tanks aren't meant to hold EVERYTHING, just the important stuff. That means DPS have to be able to survive on their own and supports need to do enough damage to kill small adds off of them.

[Edited for Real World Politics]

HowlKimchi

I admire how adamant you are with your ideas but it just would not work without sweeping changes.

Saieden

Overland is so easy you really don't need much to do "respectable" damage on a tank build. Swap out your snb for for any dps weapon and remove mitigation skills for dots and a good spammable. As a matter of fact, I personally enjoyed overland more on my tank than dps or healer because they weren't specced into damage (besides crusher/breach)

Amottica

HaruKamui wrote: »

I admire how adamant you are with your ideas but it just would not work without sweeping changes.

And those sweeping changes are to a core portion of the base game and completely unnecessary. Not to forget the challenge of balancing everything all over again, especially with both PvP and PvE in mind. To much work for to little to no improvement to the game.

Dem_kitkats1

There are multiple character slots, and AWA, why do you even need a tank to do overland/solo content? Overland content is especially easy and doesn't require tanking. People who enjoy playing pure support roles already get enough flak for doing just that, and you would like to reduce it even more. In most dungeon content anyway, most supports are some kind of hybrid, because playing a pure support is pretty unengaging, and others expect more damage. Play diversity is already starting to lessen because being some form of a DD is the only effective and engaging way to play in all content now, as it is. I would say that the game is imbalanced because DDs are so op and self reliant now that playing a pure support doesn't feel rewarding. This is why supports feel the need to basically become hybrid DDs, and have ways of outputting damage while still assuming their responsibilities in group content. Like others, I feel like the game is becoming too homogenized in that for most content all you're playing is some form of DD.

Ksariyu

HaruKamui wrote: »

I admire how adamant you are with your ideas but it just would not work without sweeping changes.

I don't think the changes are that dramatic in relation to what they're already doing. All the recent changes they've been making towards hybrid builds has been pretty big. This is just me trying to give my feedback for what they can do next, rather than complaining after changes are made.

Saieden wrote: »

Overland is so easy you really don't need much to do "respectable" damage on a tank build. Swap out your snb for for any dps weapon and remove mitigation skills for dots and a good spammable. As a matter of fact, I personally enjoyed overland more on my tank than dps or healer because they weren't specced into damage (besides crusher/breach)

Yeah, the benefit of this isn't really major for overland, and isn't really focused on that. Let's be real, overland is doable with no gear, but that's a whole different argument. It's once you get into vet content that this becomes a noticeable thing.

Amottica wrote: »

And those sweeping changes are to a core portion of the base game and completely unnecessary. Not to forget the challenge of balancing everything all over again, especially with both PvP and PvE in mind. To much work for to little to no improvement to the game.

Once again a big dramatic statement with no substance. These changes are literally less fundamentally core to the game than the hybrid changes are. And as always balance is an ongoing practice. It's gonna happen either way.
Again, these changes DO consider PvP.

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

There are multiple character slots, and AWA, why do you even need a tank to do overland/solo content? Overland content is especially easy and doesn't require tanking. People who enjoy playing pure support roles already get enough flak for doing just that, and you would like to reduce it even more. In most dungeon content anyway, most supports are some kind of hybrid, because playing a pure support is pretty unengaging, and others expect more damage. Play diversity is already starting to lessen because being some form of a DD is the only effective and engaging way to play in all content now, as it is. I would say that the game is imbalanced because DDs are so op and self reliant now that playing a pure support doesn't feel rewarding. This is why supports feel the need to basically become hybrid DDs, and have ways of outputting damage while still assuming their responsibilities in group content. Like others, I feel like the game is becoming too homogenized in that for most content all you're playing is some form of DD.

Because why is it better to split time across 6 characters with five builds each to play the game? You want to make content accessible on a basic level, not lock people out because they didn't grind some OTHER content for a week.
I do agree with how everything is starting to feel too similar. This actually hopes to combat that a bit. Of course, in any combat activity, the goal is to kill the enemy, so damage is ultimately king. The DPS role however has had so much utility built into their kit while the other roles have had no better access to damage. The sheer fact that tanks and supports have to choose between "selfish" sets and group sets while DPS just wear their normal gear says a lot about how imbalanced the access to power is across roles.
As far as pure support builds go, they've never really been a thing to where you never attack and only heal/buff/debuff. And that's mostly because that's considered a very unengaging, boring playstyle, as you've mentioned. It also forces that player to rely ENTIRELY on their team to succeed. They have very little impact and therefore feel very unrewarding. That ties into the reason for my suggestions on new passives that reward performing your role with actually getting to contribute to the fight in a tangible way.
That said, I would like to further each class and skill line's distinct playstyle as well. In a way these changes could help to encourage specialization rather than punishing it as we do now by requiring everything all the time.

BalticBlues

Ksariyu wrote: »

(OP:) EVERYTHING should be able to deal respectable damage.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

proc sets had a flat damage effect that allowed supports to dish out some pretty decent dmg.
It got abused in PvP sort of.. Seems many didn't care for passive damage on a tanky build.

THIS. What the OP is asking for, we already had it. But ZOS decided to take it away.

In the old days, ESO was more fun playing Tank or Healer, as you could do damage using proc sets.
However, DDs in PvP hated Tanks or Healers being able to also do damage.
So today, every damage proc set scales with damage, so it only makes sense playing DD now.

So please do not ask for a proper Tank in Random Dungeons anymore.
Tanks are reduced now to just being DDs helpers, so most Tanks only play with friends.

Therefore, in Random Dungeons, you have to play now with the usual Fake Tanks, sorry.

Sylvermynx

So you want to reduce my already not so great solo DPS so that you can have more damage as a tank/healer? No thanks - I don't play tanks/healers, and I already have a very hard time (due to age, bad reflexes etc) with a lot of content. The game works for me the way it is, and I'd prefer you not get it messed with.

Seems like, from the other posts, I'm not alone.

Ksariyu

BalticBlues wrote: »

In the old days, ESO was more fun playing Tank or Healer, as you could do damage using proc sets.
However, DDs in PvP hated Tanks or Healers being able to also do damage.
So today, every damage proc set scales with damage, so it only makes sense playing DD now.

Sort of this. Though I would rather give them more active ways to deal damage rather than passive procs.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

So you want to reduce my already not so great solo DPS so that you can have more damage as a tank/healer? No thanks - I don't play tanks/healers, and I already have a very hard time (due to age, bad reflexes etc) with a lot of content. The game works for me the way it is, and I'd prefer you not get it messed with.

Seems like, from the other posts, I'm not alone.

For the average player, I don't think DPS would drop too drastically without having every buff on in solo content. And if it really became unplayable, then the base damage of skills could be increased to compensate. THAT would be an easy buff.

Abigail

Sylvermynx wrote: »

So you want to reduce my already not so great solo DPS so that you can have more damage as a tank/healer? No thanks - I don't play tanks/healers, and I already have a very hard time (due to age, bad reflexes etc) with a lot of content. The game works for me the way it is, and I'd prefer you not get it messed with.

Seems like, from the other posts, I'm not alone.

You are most definitely not alone.

Amottica

Ksariyu wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

And those sweeping changes are to a core portion of the base game and completely unnecessary. Not to forget the challenge of balancing everything all over again, especially with both PvP and PvE in mind. To much work for to little to no improvement to the game.

Once again a big dramatic statement with no substance. These changes are literally less fundamentally core to the game than the hybrid changes are. And as always balance is an ongoing practice. It's gonna happen either way.
Again, these changes DO consider PvP.

Well, the substance was clearly that the design of roles is one of the most important aspects of gameplay developers have to consider in developing and managing an MMORPG which is what makes it one of the most fundamentally core aspects of the game.

I would like to thank you for presenting your suggestion as it does take courage to do so as it is essentially opening oneself up to receive praise and criticism towards the idea. While I respect you for doing this I stand with the majority of those who have provided feedback in this thread showing that we do not feel it is good for the game for the reasons presented.

I think it is good to have a respectful conversation even if it is not always in agreement.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Ksariyu wrote: »

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of what I'm getting here is that people prefer stat-based difficulty vs. skill-based difficulty. Currently, the way you engage content is by switching between sets and abilities, rather than switching how you approach a situation with the same sets and abilities.

And hey, I'll take the L on this if that's really what everyone feels. It just seems backwards to me. I'd much rather be able to dump time into one spec and learn it well enough to complete all content, and have swapping specs be like learning a new way to complete the same content.

You have made several comments in this thread that seem to suggest that you think adapting your build to the content at hand is somehow a less skillful way to play the game. Truthfully, I think you have that completely backwards. First, there is an art to building your character to the task at hand. Call it knowledge, call it wisdom, call it skill, whatever. Second, there is absolutely a skill set in being able to play your character in multiple ways.

My DK Tank can be played as tanky mag DPS or solo build. My necro tank is flexible to be able to do the same thing but with Stamina. I can take my healer from full support (almost no DPS) all they way to a full blown DPS with just enough group heals to keep pugs alive. Sure I have to switch gear and skills, but you have to know how to play them once you make the change.

You seem to want one build to rule them all. Not to skate over the fact, that's exactly how wildly overpowered metas happen, it also takes far less skill and knowledge if your same build can do everything. It's a dumbed down way to play the game.

As to your comment about trifectas, yes speed matters, but speed is almost never the limiting factor. It's always deaths. Other than maybe godslayer early on (where time was a crunch), if you get the no death, everything else pretty much falls into place. So yes. If tanks could do even half the damage of a DPS, group DPS would fall very little if any, survivability would go through the roof, and trifectas would be easy mode.