Is this the Q&A we were promised?

KMarble

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/61715

Account-Wide Achievements

To ensure that ESO’s performance can keep up and grow with the game’s new experiences, most achievements will become account-wide with Update 33. This means that an achievement that you’ve earned on any one of your characters may also be considered completed across all your characters. By consolidating achievements, we can retain and improve the way the game handles this type of data and the overall experience. With the database’s overall footprint reduced, it will more performant across the board, which may manifest itself in faster load screens and improved performance on other database-heavy operations. Most importantly, this change helps keep the game performant as we continue to add new content and achievements in the future.

Emphasis mine. Are you really trading replay-ability for a CHANCE that it MIGHT improve performance? Like removing deer from Cyro did? Or is it like when Cyro became no-proc? Maybe it's similar to when all BG mode but death mode were removed?

Why is the game checking databases of characters that aren't being used at any specific moment. As far as I'm aware there is no way to log on two different characters on the same account at the same time. Am I understanding this right? Does this mean all the databases for all of our characters are being loaded the moment we log in game? If this slows the servers down so much the only solution the devs could come up with was to mangle all characters of each player into one, why were so many character slots allowed in the first place?

This change also creates a whole new world of opportunities for your account and characters. For example, Titles rewarded via achievements will become account-wide, allowing you to use them on any character regardless of which one first earned it.

What "whole new world of opportunities"? AWA takes away the opportunity for me to experience Tamriel at its fullest again on my other characters. Not to be pedantic, but opportunity means I still have choices - I can take it or leave it. I won't have a choice come March 14th - my lawful good characters will have the title of Silencer and Master Thief, I won't be able to get Master Angler in any other character because there will be no way to track it. Same goes for most all the other achievements from dungeons and trials.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Hi all, here is the Account Wide Achievement Q&A we've been working on: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598865/

Vevvev

Also removes the ability to experience certain events like Verandis's final speech, Melina's silliness, and several other things. Too much of the game is tied into achievements to just suddenly declare then all account wide. ZOS needed to take the time to sever the ties before doing something like this, not after.

Fennwitty

And I'm sure there's no way to know in advance if performance is impacted right?

If only there was some special server devoted expressly to testing code changes we could use for like a month or so ... /s

colossalvoids

It's certainly not it but I appreciate them being open confirming what some of us already said when it was just introduced, was kinda obvious reason to begin with. Guess there's no road back now for ones dissatisfied, even if that's just a "possible" gain overall.

Finedaible

I'm not against account-wide achievements since I've thought a lot of the character-bound achievements were a dumb thing since beta.

I'm not surprised though that the way they have handled the database bloat over the years might be impacting performance. Un-stackable items, items with inexplicably low stack limits, siege storing their own individual hp values in the inventory, the ever increasing Motifs and styles that need to be loaded in, armor set bloat, crown crate assets, housing assets (and placement values), motif knowledge being tracked by character, achievements being tied to character... I'm sure there's a lot more that could have been handled better.

However, I would really like to know how or why they dug themselves into this hole where they can't even add new skill lines because it would supposedly affect performance (an excuse I can't quite believe either), yet somehow they continue with the inefficient trend of adding armor sets and motifs no one is gonna use with each update. Then they turn around and somehow add a card game that only a minority of players would really be interested in. I would think that a skill line would require less bloat than armor sets but who knows why anything is happening anymore when even the devs seem unsure.

Finedaible

Oh and let's not forget that they re-designed Fighter's guild abilities and Prismatic enchants because those were literally checking the whole database or some insanity to find out if the target was undead/daedra/werewolf or not.

kringled_1

With no discernable impact on performance after the removal of the old prismatics.

Wolfpaw

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, here is the Account Wide Achievement Q&A we've been working on: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598865/

Nice, thanks.

neferpitou73

I'm a bit concerned that gameplay changes are being made on the off chance they might fix performance instead of for sound, game enjoyment reasons.

I also love how this was first sold to us as "Because the community demanded it!" with the admission now being, "yeah ok, it was for performance." The same jerking around they've been doing to the PvP community the past 3 years. This is not how you improve communication ZOS

Although honestly I could care less about account wide achievements so it means little to me.

KMarble

IF having several databases for each individual character is one of the causes of diminished performance, it's ZOS' fault. They were the ones who kept increasing the max amount of characters each player can have.

Are they admitting they were so aloof about how this game behaves that no one bothered to observe how it was performing each time they introduced changes to the game?

ZiggyTStardust

Since you wont be able to track the achievments of characters anymore I strongly reccomend to leave any achievements that cause a change in the world, like diffrent dialogue from npcs or the stuff with the Adoring Admirer Character Bound for now until a way is implemented to make those interactions repeatable on new characters, similar to how you are now dealing with the museum quests.

Or perhaps just leave story/random encounter achievements chracter bound in general, it's the grindy or difficult achievements that people want accountwide most anyways I think

KMarble

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I'm a bit concerned that gameplay changes are being made on the off chance they might fix performance instead of for sound, game enjoyment reasons.

I also love how this was first sold to us as "Because the community demanded it!" with the admission now being, "yeah ok, it was for performance." The same jerking around they've been doing to the PvP community the past 3 years. This is not how you improve communication ZOS

Although honestly I could care less about account wide achievements so it means little to me.

Hence why I added emphasis to that one word. I don't PvP, but I've been following the whole excruciating process those players have been put through. I've seen many variations of "may improve performance" over the years. I have yet to see any improvement.

Frankly, I saw a lot of dismissive attitudes in this PTS cycle - they were very proud to announce in the reveal that, even though they weren't fixing PvP (yet) they were bringing something (s)"unique and one of a kind"(/s) that only "elite" PvPers could access - an outif that (originally) could only be acquired if this "elite" player engaged in PvE-only activities in IC, or bought the proper currency in any guild store.

Yes, they fixed it, but the magnitude of the tone deafness in how it was implemented at first still resonates with me.

KMarble

ZiggyTStardust wrote: »

Since you wont be able to track the achievments of characters anymore I strongly reccomend to leave any achievements that cause a change in the world, like diffrent dialogue from npcs or the stuff with the Adoring Admirer Character Bound for now until a way is implemented to make those interactions repeatable on new characters, similar to how you are now dealing with the museum quests.

Or perhaps just leave story/random encounter achievements chracter bound in general, it's the grindy or difficult achievements that people want accountwide most anyways I think

I'll start from the bottom of your post. Yes, I think you're right. Most people probably want AWA because of the ones you mentioned.

Now, the problem that I'll face. This is me, specifically. My first character completed pretty much all of the dungeons in game. Once that character completed each dungeon, triggers began to go off when her came across certain NPCs throughout the game. There are special lines that I only hear when I'm logged on my first character.
On March 14th, all of my 7 characters, including one I created when Blackwood came out and never stepped foot inside a dungeon, will be greeted by NPCs with those lines of dialogue.

The only way I can avoid that is by not logging on my other 6 characters. I won't be able to avoid the places where those NPCs are because:
1. I haven't encountered them all, and even if I did, I don't remember all the locations
2. I won't have a way to track which character did which dungeon

Frankly? Most people who are in favor of AWA at any cost will dismiss what I posted above as a hissy fit, and that is fine. Not everybody has empathy. I'm just pointing out one of the many, many issues I'll face once the update goes live.

As for the museum quests, none are fixed. They did a botched job on one of them, but the others weren't even mentioned.

We cannot, due to the nature of the PTS, test all possible issues that this implementation might cause in the game with the time there is left. Many of us are asking for the feature to be delayed so that more testing can be done because once AWA goes live there will be no turning back. The Q&A Gina posted makes it quite clear that several databases will be deleted.

Wolf_Eye

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, here is the Account Wide Achievement Q&A we've been working on: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598865/

Please, Gina. Please, can we have some info on the broken dialogues/NPC encounters? Some of my favorite characters like Melina Cassel and Verandis are affected. Please, can we know whether it is being looked into? Can it please be fixed? It means a great deal to me. Please.

It's one of the only things that wasn't answered in the Q&A, and I'm nervous.

karthrag_inak

Lol. "Submit a bug report, so it might be fixed in a future patch". Seriously? Howsabout not pushing out an irreversible change until you know it is working?

SerafinaWaterstar

Not good enough. Not good enough at all.

_Zathras_

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Thank you.

..for completely nuking any reason for me to roll an alt. As the #1 comment in the feedback thread for those against the AWA, you successfully managed to utterly blow out of the water the reason why so many people create characters.

Do you even appreciate the scale of what I just said? Because a lot of people painstakingly took the time to boldly underscore the magnitude of what this change will do to their drive to play ESO any longer.

On the off chance you do understand what the impact this will have on a whole lot of folks, but are doing it anyway, for a chance it might improve performance..does this seem like the best move going forward? Let's put the rationale of it being because the community asked for it for so long because of a sudden eureka moment that character-bound achievements were the root of poor server performance, aside for just a moment, take a breath, and look at what you are about to do to your community.

As a player who has been here since open beta, who followed this game through development, who supported Matt in his DAoC days by contributing to that community as well..I have to say, this is one of this biggest blunders I have seen in the 20+ years of my MMO experience.

I hope the AWA isn't ESO's equivalent to SWG's NGE. I guess time will tell.

You have literally uprooted any reason I have to create characters and play the game anymore. But, as noted above, that was the #1 point people were passionately, patiently sharing with you, when we were all trying to open a line of communication.

I feel let down on a few levels, in particular because of this from a couple of weeks ago:

"We've had some initial conversations amongst our team to discuss ways to improve communication across the board..rest assured we are actively looking at ways to improve."

The AWA feedback thread has over 2 THOUSAND replies, and 46.5 THOUSAND views. In that, you did not respond once, despite many, many pleas from a whole lot of folks to engage your community. And then when we finally get a reply, through this Q&A, it steamrolls over every major concern that a lot of people had.

I really am putting my best effort to be constructive with this post. While I certainly do feel a lot of emotion around all of this, I am having a Groundhog Day moment. I've seen far too many studios do this very same thing.

Like the other efforts to improve performance, I hope this pays off in spades as well.

Razakel13

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, here is the Account Wide Achievement Q&A we've been working on: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598865/

Looks like I'm getting back 100 gigs of hard drive space and a lot of free time. Thanks, I guess.

Fennwitty

Long wait for not a very long article.

Nemezijus

There is so much overreaction here from some people.

I get that there are issues and bugs still bound to this system change, like NPCs responding to you in specific fashion when they shouldn't and I'm sure these can still be adjusted and worked out should ZOS deems it worth doing. Same for some quests still not working properly. Gradual adjustments usually follow major updates.

But if you cannot enjoy the game and play different characters without some digital scoreboard tracking each character achievements, saying that your roleplaying life is falling apart without it, then maybe try looking for some advice from those RPers who have done it successfully so far? There have been several people here who said that they are happily roleplaying and never paid attention to achievement table. Instead of making it sound like ZOS literally deleted your characters, seek for information and advises from your fellow players?
This is not the end of the game, not the end of the world. Just embrace the fact that this change is happening and see how/if you can adapt with it.

nightstrike

Razakel13 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi all, here is the Account Wide Achievement Q&A we've been working on: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/598865/

Looks like I'm getting back 100 gigs of hard drive space and a lot of free time. Thanks, I guess.

Hey, you optimized your database!!

Nemezijus

[Quoted post has been removed.]

They made choices, based on what they considered is the best for their game performance. I'm sure they wouldn't make decisions that on purpose would hurt the game or the players.
Some decisions are not easy to make and they are risky. And there is always a chance that some part of players will not be happy with the change, but ZOS wont change their decisions that they planned and worked on for longer period of time.

The point is that by now it is 99% chance that this system is coming live soon. And you can either try to adapt or move on.
All I'm saying that there were people that spoke out as RPers who don't even pay attention to the achievement system, so why not get some ideas from them?

karthrag_inak

Nemezijus wrote: »

I'm sure they wouldn't make decisions that on purpose would hurt the game or the players.

LOL.

Fennwitty

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Nemezijus wrote: »

I'm sure they wouldn't make decisions that on purpose would hurt the game or the players.

LOL.

They would definitely not make any development decision to intentionally upset players.

They simply never stop to consider the impacts any given change would have in the first place.

nightstrike

Fennwitty wrote: »

They simply never stop to consider the impacts any given change would have in the first place.

Nor do they test them to empirically check after the fact. They rely on players to do their QA for free.

SerafinaWaterstar

But if you cannot enjoy the game and play different characters without some digital scoreboard tracking each character achievements, saying that your roleplaying life is falling apart without it, then maybe try looking for some advice from those RPers who have done it successfully so far? There have been several people here who said that they are happily roleplaying and never paid attention to achievement table. Instead of making it sound like ZOS literally deleted your characters, seek for information and advises from your fellow players?

The achievements are the way of tracking progress in this game - the only way. So its not about being a scoreboard, rather a record.

That’s the bottom line.

People’s view of what does or does not constitute role-playing is inconsequential -this affects how many people play on a fundamental level.

Please go and read the feedback thread on the pts forum bit.

karthrag_inak

Fennwitty wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Nemezijus wrote: »

I'm sure they wouldn't make decisions that on purpose would hurt the game or the players.

LOL.

They would definitely not make any development decision to intentionally upset players.

They simply never stop to consider the impacts any given change would have in the first place.

[snip]

One would think that the lesson of SOE/SWG and that epic fiasco of unnecessary/unneeded/unwelcome changes nearly killing a game would have been taken to heart by MMO devs, but this team has made a fine art out of re-enacting that script.

[edited for bashing]

Zephiran23

Better communication from ZOS does not mean presenting one justification for a change and then in reaction to an enormous response presenting alternative reasoning. THE AWA thread mostly has thread moderation responses and almost nothing in response to the numerous bugs players were very quick to uncover, or the potential issues the chosen implementation method brings about.

I'm pleased to see that individual character data will be retained. However, very little seems to have changed from the way it was initially announced and the current, publicly released updates. The PTS process once again seems to only serve the purpose of fixing major bugs and not altering new systems based on feedback from a much larger group than your internal testing would allow.

I'm still not sure how removing stealth from Bosmer improved the game.

Fennwitty

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Nemezijus wrote: »

I'm sure they wouldn't make decisions that on purpose would hurt the game or the players.

LOL.

They would definitely not make any development decision to intentionally upset players.

They simply never stop to consider the impacts any given change would have in the first place.

[snip]

One would think that the lesson of SOE/SWG and that epic fiasco of unnecessary/unneeded/unwelcome changes nearly killing a game would have been taken to heart by MMO devs, but this team has made a fine art out of re-enacting that script.

Oh definitely.

I meant their first motivation is not "anger the customers". It's usually "make some improvement or balance" -- even when they know it will anger the customers.

They put their blinders on and power through all obstacles.

[edited to remove quote]

nightstrike

Zephiran23 wrote: »

I'm pleased to see that individual character data will be retained.

Will it?