Please rethink zone design and delves for new content

Jpk0012

Empty, long boring zones isn't fun, and will not keep people. A lot of the expansions are completely empty. How does this not click?

Why are you sticking new characters in Blackwood? Its empty, the delves aren't worth doing. Who thought taking lootable barrels, etc out was a good idea? Who thought making a delve last longer than a 4 man dungeon was exciting? Because no one is out there doing these delves. Read the room. If people would rather play in Auridon for their 50th character it means your new content is not fun.

whitecrow

The only part of this I agree with is there should be more lootable containers.

I think the delves are fine. Why do you think no one is doing them? I see others there.

Sylvermynx

I like the longer more involved delves personally.

Arthur_Spoonfondle

I came back to ESO late last year, after not playing for some years. Since then I have been in many delves, not once have I been the only player inside.

Darkstorne

I love the longer delves! They're also really unique from each other visually compared to the base game, where so many of them looked identical.

I do agree the content is a bit too spaced apart though, and it's a shame seeing so many locations that from a distance look like POIs/dungeons, but are just empty towers, buildings, etc with locked doors. I honestly would be happy to wait two years between expansions if it meant more "complete" zones and cities without locked doors, but I don't think the suits up top would be happy with that revenue drop

I do feel for the devs having only a single year to flesh out both a chapter and Q4 zone. That must be really tough.

Sir_Hammock

Longer delves are definitely better than the old short ones. I just personally wish I could ramp up the difficulty.

Danikat

I agree with everyone else, I prefer longer and more unique delves and would like more of them.

I do agree that zones could have more in them, but that applies to the base game zones as well, which have large chunks blocked off with invisible walls.

colossalvoids

If delves were actually on a 4man dungeons scale that would be a win in my book, it isn't though. At least some public dungeons got better since base game.

katanagirl1

I am still doing Blackwood dailies on 3 toons for the one structural plan that was dropping “somewhere else” but really not dropping at all.

The delves in Blackwood, you can do them and most of the time only have anywhere from zero to one piece of gear to sell or decon. There are enemies every 5 feet or so but hardly any containers. Why do these areas have to be designed this way?

If you are unlucky enough to get no ornate drops or gear to decon, then when you repair your gear, that amount is taken out of the paltry amount of gold you got from enemy drops, which isn’t much.

EDIT: typo

SilverBride

Jpk0012 wrote: »

Empty, long boring zones isn't fun, and will not keep people. A lot of the expansions are completely empty. How does this not click?

Why are you sticking new characters in Blackwood? Its empty, the delves aren't worth doing. Who thought taking lootable barrels, etc out was a good idea? Who thought making a delve last longer than a 4 man dungeon was exciting? Because no one is out there doing these delves. Read the room. If people would rather play in Auridon for their 50th character it means your new content is not fun.

Who isn't out there doing these delves? I know I am because I love delves and look forward to new ones. And I run into other players every time I run one.

TheImperfect

The delves are perfect as they are.

Bat

I wish delves where daily questing is involved were smaller at least. Or maybe that the objectives in them were fewer. Like, fetch 1 thing close to the entrance, instead of 3 spread out all over the place.

Supreme_Atromancer

Very strong disagree here! The delves are absolutely fantastic and one of the strong points of the new zones. Literally no one liked the little looped path delves in base game, they were lame, low-effort and uninspired. People were very upset about them, and they've clearly taken that to heart.

Each delve is hand crafted and beautiful. Its clear a lot of care went into doing every single one of them. I love that there's little things like links, such as in King's Haven Pass where the delve crosses the "pass" so you can enter one side and come out the other, or the one in Western Skyrim (Chillwind Depths?) that gives you a secret entrance into Blackreach. It really adds to the exploration aspect of delves, and as part of the overland content, isn't that what they're meant to be about afterall?

I don't know why it would matter how long they take in relation to 4-person dungeons because they are clearly for different purposes and can't really be compared. Unless your take is that they are for grind purposes only, and everything needs to be completed in lightning fast time. I say that's a really boring take.

As to the overland zones, they aren't empty in the slightest. There's quest hubs, vignettes, striking locales, NPCs to talk to, wondering merchants, skyshards, delves, public dungeons, world bosses, incursions, tapestry fragments/lost culture things, buildings to explore, mats to farm, landscapes to enjoy. I think what you mean is that they are empty of things that you value, but a lot of people really love the stuff listed above.

As to the containers issue, I actually never noticed this year. But if its true, I agree that that seems like something they should not have changed. I know many people LOVE looting every container. Such a simple way to interact with the world, and such a simple little pleasure for people, why take that away?

Supreme_Atromancer

Bat wrote: »

I wish delves where daily questing is involved were smaller at least. Or maybe that the objectives in them were fewer. Like, fetch 1 thing close to the entrance, instead of 3 spread out all over the place.

How utterly boring that would be. Why not just cut to the chase and put the objective right next to the daily quest-giver so as not to let boring aesthetics get in the way of the thrill of mashing buttons for coffers?

Beilin_Balreis_Colcan

Longer delves are good, but if they are lacking lootable containers, there should be more. I've just been recently re-playing Skyrim, and really enjoyed the long, complex delves, but they also have plenty of loot.

EF321

Don't like chapter overland starting from NElsweyr. Huge mostly empty zones. Not even guild trading spot outside capital city (i.e. Balmora, Lillandril)

Snamyap

Bat wrote: »

I wish delves where daily questing is involved were smaller at least. Or maybe that the objectives in them were fewer. Like, fetch 1 thing close to the entrance, instead of 3 spread out all over the place.

God forbid things would take a little time and/or effort. 🙄

DaiKahn

I would love if they made delves longer and a little more difficult. I thought Shada's Tear in Craglorn was superb and if delves were like that it would be great

*waves back at Sylvermynx*

Vrienda

My favourite delves have always been the Deshaan/Stormhaven/Grahtwood ones. They're basically squares where it's impossible to miss the boss, skyshard and delve.

All delves used to be like that but a lot of zones got updated early in ESO's life cycle.

But yeah, there's a reason people tend to lean on the world boss dailies rather than the delve dailies during zone events.

Bat

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Bat wrote: »

I wish delves where daily questing is involved were smaller at least. Or maybe that the objectives in them were fewer. Like, fetch 1 thing close to the entrance, instead of 3 spread out all over the place.

How utterly boring that would be. Why not just cut to the chase and put the objective right next to the daily quest-giver so as not to let boring aesthetics get in the way of the thrill of mashing buttons for coffers?

No, it wouldn't be boring. It would be less boring and tedious than that Blackreach delve with the mushrooms for example. Much less boring and much less tedious if there was just one fetch item in there for example.

SilverBride

I don't understand why anyone wants to play a game without actually playing it.

_Zathras_

From someone who runs delves and dungeons to loot containers and chests, I agree on the above observations.

Every chapter since Elsweyr has had a deplorable reduction of interactable containers/chests. Most of what you see is cosmetic scenery and that's it.

For a quick and easy comparison, go to Ilessan Tower just outside of Daggerfall. It's tiny, but jammed with crates, sacks, barrels, etc. Extend that to all the zones even up to the entirety of Wrothgar. Then go to Blackwood, and the Deadlands. Go to the docks in Vulkhel Guard, then go to the docks in Summerset. It is night and day in comparison.

While I am not normally one to call out lazy design, this warrants it. To me it says, "Let's slap this together with as few staff as possible."

The thing about cutting corners, is that people eventually notice.

Supreme_Atromancer

As to the number of contain

Bat wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

Bat wrote: »

I wish delves where daily questing is involved were smaller at least. Or maybe that the objectives in them were fewer. Like, fetch 1 thing close to the entrance, instead of 3 spread out all over the place.

How utterly boring that would be. Why not just cut to the chase and put the objective right next to the daily quest-giver so as not to let boring aesthetics get in the way of the thrill of mashing buttons for coffers?

No, it wouldn't be boring. It would be less boring and tedious than that Blackreach delve with the mushrooms for example. Much less boring and much less tedious if there was just one fetch item in there for example.

Its just different points of view and different motivations, I guess. I have a low tolerance for grind. I'll typically do dailies for a little while, maybe during an event, or when it first comes out, and when it starts feeling tedious I just do something more fun.

Exploration is fun, something to look forward to when the chapter lands. Grind is always the same, and always will be. The day it sacrifices too much exploration for the sake of expediating mindless, repetitive hamster-wheeling, they'd have gone too far. Fortunately, this seems unlikely.

Agenericname

I prefer them to the base game delves personally. They did a great job with them. I don't mind them being longer, prefer it actually. I mean, its a game I play, more game is more play. The visuals are usually much better as well.

As for overland, some of the newer DLCs feel less cramped. Thats not necessarily a bad thing. Cyrodiil is much the same and is a beautiful zone. The spacing makes it feel more real.

Zephiran23

Arpenia - a bit sparse for containers, lots of bookshelves
Bloodrun - again not great, still better than the main quest portion
Doomvault - full of urns etc
Undertow - full of containers
Vunalk - very sparse for containers, lots of bookshelves
Xi-Tsei - full of urns etc

So 3 that are pretty good for looting and 3 that are below average. None of them take all that long and if you use the apartment teleport to exit, aren't going to take longer than a base game loop.

As for the zone, the Cyrodiil side is a bit too realistic in terms of mob density, while the Black Marsh side is overpopulated. Player population - world bosses still get called out, but now that it's been out for a while, that's dropped to usual DLC levels. Delves always seem to have other players in there when I do them on PC/NA or EU.

So in my opinion mixed, rather than all bad as per the OP's generalisations.

Jpk0012

whitecrow wrote: »

The only part of this I agree with is there should be more lootable containers.

I think the delves are fine. Why do you think no one is doing them? I see others there.

[snip] There are more people in the inn in Auridon.

[edited for baiting]

Jpk0012

colossalvoids wrote: »

If delves were actually on a 4man dungeons scale that would be a win in my book, it isn't though. At least some public dungeons got better since base game.

What? Bro, there are 4 man dungeons. Go do one of them. I recommend Falkreath. Show us your Youtube video of doing this.

Amottica

Older content tends to be empty. It is normal and common in MMORPGs as players tend to gravitate to the newer released zones. It is also why, in part, Zenimax does events that involve these older zones.

It is to be expected since people do not want to do the same content 50 million times. People continue to play when they have new and interesting content to enjoy along with fun people to enjoy it with.

Jpk0012

Amottica wrote: »

Older content tends to be empty. It is normal and common in MMORPGs as players tend to gravitate to the newer released zones. It is also why, in part, Zenimax does events that involve these older zones.

It is to be expected since people do not want to do the same content 50 million times. People continue to play when they have new and interesting content to enjoy along with fun people to enjoy it with.

No. Older content is way more popular than new content. Do you play ESO?

peacenote

I know we can't have it both ways but I like the longer delves the first time I play them (many are simply gorgeous) but they drive me crazy for replayability/ events. This is because

a) For repeatables/ events I'm looking for the most efficient way to complete them, because it is usually something extra to do that's taking away from my main reason for playing that day.

b) I'm directionally challenged. I have trouble navigating through some of those fancy delves, particularly if they are multi- level, when the delve quest has been cleared. I have its quest for a guide the first time I do it but I'm not ashamed to admit I get lost going back, and then I get frustrated.

I get what people are saying about just playing to play, but lots of folks are balancing limited game time with also wanting to pursue the seasonal rewards. It's a pretty standard playstyle for MMOs, especially ones with a lot of content that have been out for a while.

The newer delves are nicer and more creative but not always better, depending on your goal for the play session. I see both sides as I agree with both sides.

AcadianPaladin

I prefer the original zones in just about every regard. Feel, look, music, ease of navigation, delves, public dungeons, group dungeons, world bosses, dolmens (over the newer 'world events').