Is the ESO Community at War with Itself?

atherusmora

From toxic casuals to toxic elitist, No-CP diehards to CP and Proc lovers, toxic negativity and postivity; From Twitch to Twitter and everything in between, it seems there’s no end to the discord within nearly every facet of the ESO community. It is not as if there is no merit to the myriad grievances paraded through forums, Zone chat, YouTube, and all other mediums for community interfacing. To the contrary, many of the issues on all sides are valid and require civil conversation to sift through and address. I fear the common denominator for many of these issues stems from mutual frustration on all sides with regards to the unsatisfactory state of our beloved game (most notably, imo, PvP and the crown store).

The bashing of streamers by other streamers on topics of mutual interest and common paths towards solutions seems to be the norm these days. With subscribers and spectators living these battles out in the comments section and in forums. Casual newbs against casual vets, and hard core newbs against hardcore vets. When I first started playing this game I fell in love with the community instantly. Super nice, helpful, and inclusive players that gave consideration to their fellow player. That was back in 2014. Today the community as a whole feels deeply divided.

New players are lost as a chaosball in high weeds, vets are tired and burnt out; the folks in between are at each other’s throats over one thing or another, and don’t seem to be sticking around long enough to see any real change in the game. That said this game has changed and continues to change a lot! The sad reality is ZOS’ lack of communication with the community, lack of follow through on promises, and overall lack of a clearly communicated vision with achievable long term and short term goals.

I am hoping this thread doesn’t get closed because I am not trying to vilify ZOS, but in the absence of answers there is anarchy. I guess this is my appeal to the powers that be, to please do something, or at least say something that makes sense and puts to rest thoroughly the misinformation that is rampantly and rapidly deteriorating the ESO community from the inside out.

About Me:
I am an end game player (7 years, and too many hours to care). I have been in and out of many guilds, but am a solo player by default and nature. I love the endgame scene, and thoroughly enjoy teaching newbs the ropes of ESO. It is the first MMO I managed to excel in. Despite actively engaging whatever guilds I am in I typically struggle to find a group that can hang in the end game. In my experience, guilds typically cater to their core players, of which I am seldom apart. I’ve only been in two that did not do this, but they no longer exist as the GMs have left the game and disbanded the guilds. I have the gear, skill, and knowledge. I don’t always have the time and because of this I suppose I can be considered a “casual” player? Nearly all of my PvE achievements have come from PUGs. Dungeon Group finder is more reliable than LFG in guild chat; zone chat takes as long as GF. Ive only been in a premade trial group maybe twice; all other times I had to PUG because I am not included in guild raids for reasons. My PvP experience is always Solo now, because 12 man groups in Cyro leave little room for PUGs; before group cap nerf I did enjoy zerging with my fellow yellows quite a bit. Cap killed that. IC is empty, and BGs needs a better system.

Vevvev

Yes, but I wish it wasn't.

Mayrael

Of course this is a complex phenomenon but the common denominator for each of these groups is one thing: self-interest. People who care about making this game the best it can be for every group of players are few and far between, and that's probably the saddest part.

This is a very sensitive topic, especially for a certain group who are doing their best to make sure that under no circumstances does this game require anyone to do more than enter a password correctly, and I fear this thread will quickly turn into a brown storm.

Grandchamp1989

Saw the video, made me think... He's on to something IMO.

I really hope 2022 will bring the community together.

I remember hearing a methaphor for MMO's

"Theme Parks"

MMO's need to be able to cater to EVERYONE. There can't just be 2 wild adrenaline rushed rides or the youngest and cozy feel left out. And it can't just be the "tea cups and ice cream's" or the adrenaline driven gets left out. MMO's are a theme park where we all should feel like we got a reason to return to Tamriel, have fun and come together.

Solo players, PvP'ers, Endgamers, traders, decorater's. We all make ESO what it is.

That is a strength worth preservering IMO.

Elsonso

Yes. From profanity-laced hated spewing out of streamers to intolerance of how others play the game on the forum... definitely, yes.

TequilaFire

Welcome to the human race.

Grega

I dunno. I think all the toxicity and negativity has more to do with “internet anonymity” and “human nature” that being caused by the game itself.

This kind of thing is just super common on the internet (even forums here) where people with say thing they never would in person.

As far as human nature, I’d say it’s not that more than half of humans on this people are negative, they aren’t. I believe there’s more positive. But negativity screams louder so most of the time it feels like half a world is negative. And combine that with internet. And it feels like 90% is just toxic. It’s not really, but because it screams louder it feels that way.

As far as streamers go as you mention, I think it unprofessional to do that since they are basically contracted to work for zos. To badmouth your employer in public in real life is firing offense, and on internet it should be treated the same.

And regarding your statement about yourself: core teams in end game exits and predate back to the times they released DPS dummy. Prior to homestead update, there was no way to test DPS and forming teams for end game content was far more natural and friendly (albeit time consuming - as it required to do the content couple times to see if people were a good fit rather than simply hump the dummy till you got adequate result and provide a clip). I also think the “old” way allowed for more relaxed play style where core team wasn’t a part time job lol. From couple in my “career” I ended up getting “fired” because of “attendance-callouts”. Never seen this ever anywhere except in ESO and real life employment lmao.

PS: I’ve also played since beta on PC, then PS for few months after launch and then Xbox ever since then.

RaptorRodeoGod

atherusmora wrote: »

About Me:
I am an end game player (7 years, and too many hours to care). I have been in and out of many guilds, but am a solo player by default and nature. I love the endgame scene, and thoroughly enjoying teaching newbs the ropes of ESO. It is the first MMO I managed to excel in. Despite actively engaging whatever guilds I am in I typically struggle to find a group that can hang in the end game. In my experience, guilds typically cater to their core players, of which I am seldom apart. I’ve only been in two that did not do this, but they no longer exist as the GMs have left the game and disbanded the guilds. I have the gear, skill, and knowledge. I don’t always have the time and because of this I suppose I can be considered a “casual” player? Nearly all of my PvE achievements have come from PUGs. Dungeon Group finder is more reliable than LFG in guild chat; zone chat takes as long as GF. Ive only been in a premade trial group maybe twice; all other times I had to PUG because I am not included in guild raids for reasons. My PvP experience is always Solo now, because 12 man groups in Cyro leave little room for PUGs; before group cap nerf I did enjoy zerging with my fellow yellows quite a bit. Cap killed that. IC is empty, and BGs needs a better system.

I've have basically the same experience as you for the past couple years on Xbox NA. Been feeling pretty left out becaise there hasn't been any content that is at my skill level for awhile. Everything's either too easy or too hard. Wish there was more of an in between.

Rittings

TequilaFire wrote: »

Welcome to the human race.

Acceptance won't lead to change. It just leads to plausible deniability. I understand the apathy, but we shouldn't stop striving to be better.

I remember when this game first started and everyone was so eager to help each other - this divide has evolved and grown as time as continued... and will continue to do so if we don't attempt to stem it.

I run a guild that was really working hard to drop the elitism, to not worry about titles/skins etc - but enjoy them when we got them. Because of that, we didn't need to dps test, gear check etc.. we played as friends, almost as a family... but it only takes a few bad eggs to come along and start people getting "jealous" about titles and skins and all of a sudden... the cracks appear and those that you thought had integrity and you considered friends (almost family) started to desire the achievements that appeared in pixels rather than the achievements that appeared in your hearts and souls.

Competitiveness is great - if you have the right mindset for it. You should always respect the journey and climb, and those that helped you reach your summit - or else, you've reached the top all alone, and the walk back down the mountain will be a lonely one for you.

So yeah, I agree with pretty much most this post. It's a shame... we should all have so much in common since we enjoy the same video game... but yet... it doesn't appear that way.

VaranisArano

Much of the discussions seem zero sum.

If ZOS does what you want, I lose. If ZOS does what I want, you lose.

That's...not unfounded, really. When ZOS balances for PVP, PVE is impacted. When ZOS balances for PVE, PVP is impacted. Dev time and effort is limited.

jedtb16_ESO

TequilaFire wrote: »

Welcome to the human race.

yup. that is it in a nutshell.

for anyone who doesn't agree just take a look around you at the world we live in.

Arthtur

Who cares? I want to see world in flames /s

Well most ppl think only about what they want and doesnt care about others. Its doesnt feel nice but what can u do? Just dont be like them.

I helped a lot of times. But what should i think when ppl are saying that vet players should sit in the city so the casual players can call them for help with world bosses? Am i some kind of help bot? Also it doesnt feel nice when u can spend 2h in dungeon with weaker group and dont get even a stupid "Thank You" at the end. I will still help ppl but its not my job to help them. I want to have fun too.

Im rather endgame player. I like doing vet dlc dungeons, farming motifs and blueprints... but im just "minority". So i doesnt "deserve" anything. Vet overland - not worth the investment, DLC dungeons - we should get new zone instead of them... and even the existing dlc dungeons get nerfs all the time... sigh... i could give more examples but thats not the point.

Its just easier to play with friends without worrying about the others. U wont get a "toxic" person that way so u can just enjoy the game. For example my friend helped once with world boss because someone had a problem with it. After killing it he was blamed for stealing the boss...

Also its easier to complain

whitecrow

People actually watch streamers?

TequilaFire

Rittings wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Welcome to the human race.

Acceptance won't lead to change. It just leads to plausible deniability. I understand the apathy, but we shouldn't stop striving to be better.

I remember when this game first started and everyone was so eager to help each other - this divide has evolved and grown as time as continued... and will continue to do so if we don't attempt to stem it.

I run a guild that was really working hard to drop the elitism, to not worry about titles/skins etc - but enjoy them when we got them. Because of that, we didn't need to dps test, gear check etc.. we played as friends, almost as a family... but it only takes a few bad eggs to come along and start people getting "jealous" about titles and skins and all of a sudden... the cracks appear and those that you thought had integrity and you considered friends (almost family) started to desire the achievements that appeared in pixels rather than the achievements that appeared in your hearts and souls.

Competitiveness is great - if you have the right mindset for it. You should always respect the journey and climb, and those that helped you reach your summit - or else, you've reached the top all alone, and the walk back down the mountain will be a lonely one for you.

So yeah, I agree with pretty much most this post. It's a shame... we should all have so much in common since we enjoy the same video game... but yet... it doesn't appear that way.

My goodness you stuffed a lot of words in my mouth, I never said I accepted it.
But it is reality humans are terrible to each other and it is only getting worse.

mickeyx

Been playing this game since it's release. All these years I had maybe two bad experience in game? Players in game are infact the nicest compared to any other online game i have ever played. I meet more rude people on forums

Ythotha

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Saw the video, made me think... He's on to something IMO.

I really hope 2022 will bring the community together.

I remember hearing a methaphor for MMO's

"Theme Parks"

MMO's need to be able to cater to EVERYONE. There can't just be 2 wild adrenaline rushed rides or the youngest and cozy feel left out. And it can't just be the "tea cups and ice screams" or the adrenaline driven gets left out. MMO is a theme park where we all should feel like we got a reason to return to Tamriel, have fun and come together.

Solo players, PvP'ers, Endgamers, traders, decorater's. We all make ESO what it is.

That is a strength worth preservering IMO.

Exactly, although trying to cater to a wide audience is what makes MMO's always lackluster in whatever thing they got going on

atherusmora

VaranisArano wrote: »

Much of the discussions seem zero sum.

If ZOS does what you want, I lose. If ZOS does what I want, you lose.

That's...not unfounded, really. When ZOS balances for PVP, PVE is impacted. When ZOS balances for PVE, PVP is impacted. Dev time and effort is limited.

I do agree. Resources have to be used wisely. That said, there is a responsibility from devs to the players to communicate clearly how those resources are being used to address player issues, if at all with achievable long term and short term goals. There are personnel at ZOS who are paid to do this. Follow through on these goals is also a major part of this. Vague promises, broad expectations, and positive intent are not sufficient solutions to the rampant misinformation and high speculation that is crushing our community. Without at least that level of intervention from ZOS I am concerned that the current state of the community will only further splinter and deteriorate.

atherusmora

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Welcome to the human race.

yup. that is it in a nutshell.

for anyone who doesn't agree just take a look around you at the world we live in.

Response:

Rittings wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Welcome to the human race.

Acceptance won't lead to change. It just leads to plausible deniability. I understand the apathy, but we shouldn't stop striving to be better.

I remember when this game first started and everyone was so eager to help each other - this divide has evolved and grown as time as continued... and will continue to do so if we don't attempt to stem it.

PrimusTiberius

just goes to show how toxic people really are, just turn on the news and look at all the hate....internet is no different, only people get to hide behind a keyboard with no risk to themselves.

best thing to do is ignore the haters, they got problems and are only looking for attention, deprive them of that.

Finedaible

atherusmora wrote: »

[...] I fear the common denominator for many of these issues stems from mutual frustration on all sides with regards to the unsatisfactory state of our beloved game (most notably, imo, PvP and the crown store).

[...]

You got that right.

One of the biggest peeves I see trending right now is the way new features that get added like the Armory are intentionally incomplete or have inconveniences built into it them in favor of the crown store. It was the same sentiment for guild, vamp, and werewolf skill line unlocks. On the one side you have some who are happy to have that immediate satisfaction, and then on the other side you have players who wish the system was better in the first place. It's no surprise this causes some amount of discord. Like the way I see it, why not just make a better experience that all of your players can enjoy rather than monetizing every aspect of it?

It's one thing to sell cosmetics and boosters in a "free-to-play" game but when the game design starts to be influenced by the cash shop then that's crossing a line. Personally I find it ironic that there are canned responses to negative reviews on Steam which say: "Our philosophy when it comes to the Crown Store is to ensure that players' experiences are not disrupted or stunted to the point that they feel that they need to make a Crown Store Purchase." Okay... then how does one justify the Armory Assistant which was supposed to give console players similar features to what pc players have? The justification for not being able to use the Assistant in trials or dungeons was that they did not want it to be "pay-to-win", if this was indeed the case then why did they not give it to everyone for free so that everyone was on equal ground? Why arbitrarily leave Mundus Stones out out of the armory system? Oh that's right, because there's something already in the crown store that would get negatively impacted, silly me. Kind of an odd stance too when they blame bad performance due to addons. Not to say anything about some addons unintentionally causing bans; You'd think they would want to include solid QoL features in the game for more stability and less customer service tickets.

Well sorry if that turned into more of a rant than intended, but hopefully you can see why some of us are frustrated by the state of the game.

Ringing_Nirnroot

I’m stuck in between casual and sweaty and I can’t find a place to fit in ;-;

atherusmora

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

just goes to show how toxic people really are, just turn on the news and look at all the hate....internet is no different, only people get to hide behind a keyboard with no risk to themselves.

best thing to do is ignore the haters, they got problems and are only looking for attention, deprive them of that.

This is beyond haters of whatever side of the fence you fall on. This is about the fence. It wasn’t always there. This community used to be able to at the very least civilly converse about the myriad issues. ZOS has been consistent with their response rate, but the quality of those responses has greatly diminished. I mean it’s gotten so bad that the forum moderators are really putting their work in with many forums being closed based on how players are speaking to other players and/or ZOS. It’s never been this bad, not at least from what I can remember.

peacenote

The thing about the extremely negative folks... many of them still spend many, many hours in the game, so their complaints should be taken with a grain of salt. Then there are those that quit the game long ago but like to complain with no recent experience... so those sentiments can be dismissed too. There aren't really that many people who complain while actively dwindling their playtime.

Therefore I ignore most of them, or try to jump in on the forums to provide alternate viewpoints since often the toxicity uses broad generalizations which should be corrected in case ZOS is actually reading.

Btw, WHERE did it say the Armory was intended to bring more functionality to console that PC did not have? It is a build changer, sometimes known as dual or alternate specs in other games, and PC players did not have this functionality before the Armory, either.

A way to have unlimited, immediate gear and bar swapping in base game without mods (a Dressing Room like replacement) would be great, but the Armory is something else. It definitely would completely ruin the idea that choice means anything if we could all switch morphs, curses, cp, etc. at the click of a button per pull.

atherusmora

Ythotha wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Saw the video, made me think... He's on to something IMO.

I really hope 2022 will bring the community together.

I remember hearing a methaphor for MMO's

"Theme Parks"

MMO's need to be able to cater to EVERYONE. There can't just be 2 wild adrenaline rushed rides or the youngest and cozy feel left out. And it can't just be the "tea cups and ice screams" or the adrenaline driven gets left out. MMO is a theme park where we all should feel like we got a reason to return to Tamriel, have fun and come together.

Solo players, PvP'ers, Endgamers, traders, decorater's. We all make ESO what it is.

That is a strength worth preservering IMO.

Exactly, although trying to cater to a wide audience is what makes MMO's always lackluster in whatever thing they got going on

I’d have to disagree. MMO’s cater to large audiences by their nature. Because of this there needs to be varied offerings in a game that appeal to the diverse peoples that will play their game. ESO does this very well imo. To your point, however, it seems the devs are struggling with keeping the game fresh in a meaningful way for all of its players. Newbs may not feel this too much, but old timers, and those in between will recognize this gaping maw for what it is.

atherusmora

Ringing_Nirnroot wrote: »

I’m stuck in between casual and sweaty and I can’t find a place to fit in ;-;

I felt that.

atherusmora

peacenote wrote: »

The thing about the extremely negative folks... many of them still spend many, many hours in the game, so their complaints should be taken with a grain of salt. Then there are those that quit the game long ago but like to complain with no recent experience... so those sentiments can be dismissed too. There aren't really that many people who complain while actively dwindling their playtime.

Therefore I ignore most of them, or try to jump in on the forums to provide alternate viewpoints since often the toxicity uses broad generalizations which should be corrected in case ZOS is actually reading.

I don’t think being dismissive to player viewpoint, no matter how trivial you feel they are, is the best way to go about resolving the discord in the community.

You might consider quoting the player that expressed concerns about the armory system. Without the quote I thought you were responding to OP, but then I remembered I made no mention of the armory system.

Elsonso

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I remember hearing a methaphor for MMO's

"Theme Parks"

MMO's need to be able to cater to EVERYONE. There can't just be 2 wild adrenaline rushed rides or the youngest and cozy feel left out. And it can't just be the "tea cups and ice screams" or the adrenaline driven gets left out. MMO is a theme park where we all should feel like we got a reason to return to Tamriel, have fun and come together.

Solo players, PvP'ers, Endgamers, traders, decorater's. We all make ESO what it is.

That is a strength worth preservering IMO.

In broad strokes, yes... but MMOs do not cater to everyone. They can't. With every decision, a line is drawn, and that will invariably favor people on one side of the line. This is how the studio's vision for the game gets implemented.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If ZOS does what you want, I lose. If ZOS does what I want, you lose.

That's...not unfounded, really. When ZOS balances for PVP, PVE is impacted. When ZOS balances for PVE, PVP is impacted. Dev time and effort is limited.

The thing is that these are usually player-generated ideas in the first place. ZOS has not asked for us to decide on these ideas, but the debate seems to follow the thought that ZOS will follow the winner of the debate. Since these ideas often involve lines being drawn that could exclude players who currently enjoy the game, this debate can get very loud. There is a significant down-side if ZOS picks the wrong "side" of the debate. I doubt that ZOS is waiting for a victor, but it feels like people think otherwise.

Dragonredux

I'm more of an Elsweyr baby so I don't know how the community was before then. I'm more a midcore(?) player I guess, nowadays I just do solo arenas but I do feel the community has gotten more volatile over the years.

I know I am beating a dead horse here but I do feel like Performance is the biggest issue here whenever it affects the entire game on all platforms. Compound that with all the other minor issues and you have a boiling lot that seems like it just spilled over recently.

ZoS has done good things like the sticker book but they have also done equally bad things like capping group size in both pve and pvp. Kind of kills the whole mmo vibe. Especially when a good number of abilities and sets now work in group only so I can't help some random in a dragon fight without grouping.

PrimusTiberius

atherusmora wrote: »

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

just goes to show how toxic people really are, just turn on the news and look at all the hate....internet is no different, only people get to hide behind a keyboard with no risk to themselves.

best thing to do is ignore the haters, they got problems and are only looking for attention, deprive them of that.

This is beyond haters of whatever side of the fence you fall on. This is about the fence. It wasn’t always there. This community used to be able to at the very least civilly converse about the myriad issues. ZOS has been consistent with their response rate, but the quality of those responses has greatly diminished. I mean it’s gotten so bad that the forum moderators are really putting their work in with many forums being closed based on how players are speaking to other players and/or ZOS. It’s never been this bad, not at least from what I can remember.

not sure what you mean by the fence, but people are generally cool in the forums and in game, I've been in the forums and in the game for over 5 years and have met some really cool peeps, yeah they're are some bad apples but there will always be bad apples, its my opinion but they (bad apples) just get more attention now than they used to in the past.

Society is a dumpster fire because society has allowed it.

xgoku1

1. Streamers used to be part of the problem too, as they used to be part of a sekrit klub, given fancy titles by ZOS like "Class Representative" and creating the illusion of feedback. Presumably now they've stopped that, so ZOS has lost the streamer base too. [snip]

2. The only time ZOS "interacts" with the playerbase is to sell something. People aren't stupid, they can tell when its corporate shilling. Consider: "#ESOFam represent!!!!", collabs with bands noone has cared about since the early 2000s, endless advertising of stuff to buy in official streams etc.

3. There's a hugbox mentality because the only people remaining who're in too deep are either extremely jaded or have too much sunk time/money cost (that includes whales). The extremely jaded group tends to moan about everything and anything while the sunk time cost lot will defend ZOS to the ends of the earth, even if its against their self-interests as a customer.

On a surface level ESO's community is generally less toxic, helpful to new players etc. but there's a lot of meta problems that I am pretty sure won't go away.

[Edited for Baiting]

endgamesmug

I too am an average competent player that has a great deal of trouble finding people to run despite the plethora of guilds available. The only social contact i get is from zone chat mainly in craglorn where i attend my pugs. Theres far more chance for social interaction in zonechat it seems as a result of the reliance on dischord when it comes to guild interaction. Vet trial difficulty is a little too much for me atleast most of the time and everything else is fine dlc dungeons included. I get left out of everything, it seems like most people are super skilled and everything is a push over or folks that are incapable of anything. Then theres us in the middle wandering around wondering what to do 😆. I try to be civil have a joke with people if im lucky enough to get that interaction going 😁. Life is hard in eso