Is the ESO Community at War with Itself?

Tandor

The OP forgets that the community discord that he describes in great detail simply passes most players by. For all the streaming, Twitching, toxic this and toxic that, most are just playing the game and having fun doing so.

atherusmora

Tandor wrote: »

The OP forgets that the community discord that he describes in great detail simply passes most players by. For all the streaming, Twitching, toxic this and toxic that, most are just playing the game and having fun doing so.

The OP is well aware of what you describe as “most” players, and acknowledges all players from one end of the spectrum to the next. I’d like to see the data on this assertion, however. I would agree, as most MMOs go, ESO still retains the friendliest player base I’ve ever encountered, but that isn’t saying much if it is a shell of what it once was.

SilverBride

The level of toxicity on the forums is frankly unwarranted. Yes, the game has some issues but bashing ZoS, and other posters, isn't going to get them fixed. It is actually possible to discuss issues without pointing fingers and accusing.

Jaimeh

I don't know how much of it is actual in-fighting, and how much of it is artificial, and bolstered for content, and in order to get views, attention, etc. There is toxicity to be found in the group finder for sure, but that's nothing new, and for the most part the community is pretty welcoming, positive, and getting along. However, I will concede that there has been increasing resentment towards ZOS, especially with the advent of crown crates, but then again, players have always been critical of devs over the years for different reasons, so again that's nothing new. Maybe it's just that negative stuff tend be heard louder...

Tandor

atherusmora wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

The OP forgets that the community discord that he describes in great detail simply passes most players by. For all the streaming, Twitching, toxic this and toxic that, most are just playing the game and having fun doing so.

The OP is well aware of what you describe as “most” players, and acknowledges all players from one end of the spectrum to the next. I’d like to see the data on this assertion, however. I would agree, as most MMOs go, ESO still retains the friendliest player base I’ve ever encountered, but that isn’t saying much if it is a shell of what it once was.

The commenter would in turn like to see the data on this assertion !

etchedpixels

Elsonso wrote: »

In broad strokes, yes... but MMOs do not cater to everyone. They can't. With every decision, a line is drawn, and that will invariably favor people on one side of the line. This is how the studio's vision for the game gets implemented.

Actually I think ESO has been pretty good at avoiding much of that, certainly compared with many games

- I've never noticed housing, outfits or fishing require lines be drawn nor RP.
- You can play it as an economy and trading game without actually having to get into serious combat or into storylines. Nothing stops you spending your life farming, flipping and counting your gold and ignoring the chaos outside
- You can play it as a story game and ignore all the end game (and pretty much all other players)
- Once you hit 50 you can play it as a group content game and mostly ignore the story game (except for skill and skill point farming)
- With (I think 2) exceptions there is no need to do any group content to follow the core., DLC or zone storylines, and the times they did that were historic (White Gold Tower has a small chunk of the IC/overall story, the Craglorn trials kind of complete the post quest story there)
- For better or worse a lot of the PvP / PvE balancing is done by a magical "battle spirit" fudge which lets them change a lot of one without the other

There are inevitable crossovers - PvP players often have to farm PvE gear, end game PvE players have to get some PvP skills, and the odd real mess like Imperial City, but it's a game where you can basically ignore most of the other activities that don't appeal.

As others have said the elephant in the room is performance.

Elsonso

xgoku1 wrote: »

1. Streamers used to be part of the problem too, as they used to be part of a sekrit klub, given fancy titles by ZOS like "Class Representative" and creating the illusion of feedback. Presumably now they've stopped that, so ZOS has lost the streamer base too.

I do think that the class rep program is still alive. This does tend to be heavy on streamers, but you have to admit that it is easiest for ZOS to assess people in the community that show an understanding for classes and builds when they can watch streams from that person.

zaria

TequilaFire wrote: »

Welcome to the human race.

This one agrees, join the dominion to avoid them
Yes you will face Altmer, Khajiit and Bosmer but you can not have everything.
Toast

kargen27

many people have become addicted to likes/dislikes or any reaction really. They get the same dopamine release drug addicts get when they shoot up. Others produce content hoping for financial gain. What they have in common is they need reactions to obtain their final reward. It has long been known people tend to react more to things they disagree with. People also tend to react to conflict. So to feed their addictions most streamers resort to negative content or content they know will create conflict.

That is why we see videos titled "Most Overrated Bands of All Time" and the Beatles, Queen, Nirvana or any other band that has/had a huge fan base will be number three on the list. The person that created the video doesn't care about anything but listing bands they think will generate the most responses. They need people to come in and tell them they are nuts and the Beatles are one of the greatest bands ever. They are addicted to the reactions they get.

jaws343

Elsonso wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I remember hearing a methaphor for MMO's

"Theme Parks"

MMO's need to be able to cater to EVERYONE. There can't just be 2 wild adrenaline rushed rides or the youngest and cozy feel left out. And it can't just be the "tea cups and ice screams" or the adrenaline driven gets left out. MMO is a theme park where we all should feel like we got a reason to return to Tamriel, have fun and come together.

Solo players, PvP'ers, Endgamers, traders, decorater's. We all make ESO what it is.

That is a strength worth preservering IMO.

In broad strokes, yes... but MMOs do not cater to everyone. They can't. With every decision, a line is drawn, and that will invariably favor people on one side of the line. This is how the studio's vision for the game gets implemented.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If ZOS does what you want, I lose. If ZOS does what I want, you lose.

That's...not unfounded, really. When ZOS balances for PVP, PVE is impacted. When ZOS balances for PVE, PVP is impacted. Dev time and effort is limited.

The thing is that these are usually player-generated ideas in the first place. ZOS has not asked for us to decide on these ideas, but the debate seems to follow the thought that ZOS will follow the winner of the debate. Since these ideas often involve lines being drawn that could exclude players who currently enjoy the game, this debate can get very loud. There is a significant down-side if ZOS picks the wrong "side" of the debate. I doubt that ZOS is waiting for a victor, but it feels like people think otherwise.

The reason players feel they need to have a victor for these arguments is mainly because we have seen too many instances where silence on a subject has been met with unfavorable change.

The problem is, people complain about things louder than people cheer things in game. And for too many issues, people would ignore or at least engage very little with complaint threads. And then zos made changes that many were not ok with. All because the players who were happy with the way things were said nothing in the complaint threads and all zos heard was the negative feedback.

So now every thread is basically an argument. And at least for issues where people don't want to see things change it has to be. Silence is death and Zos often appears to only listen to those who yell the loudest or post the most complaints to the forums.

I mean, you have threads with pve players wanting to diminish pvp modes to make rewards easier to get on. Some even on the first page here. So yeah, not pushing back is not an option.

IronWooshu

Yes but its everyone else's fault, if you guys would just always agree with me things would be better

/s

Nestor

The Forum Wars started in the Deep Mists of 2013.

And show no signs of Abating.

War. War never changes.

Elsonso

SilverBride wrote: »

The level of toxicity on the forums is frankly unwarranted. Yes, the game has some issues but bashing ZoS, and other posters, isn't going to get them fixed. It is actually possible to discuss issues without pointing fingers and accusing.

I see the root cause here in that ZOS is not taking measures to head off toxicity that they have control over.

I have recently been seeing less tolerance the game or for other players, coupled with a demand that ZOS change something. This inevitably provokes an opposing response, which is not a problem until it festers. I am not completely sure, but at some point, it seems to be very important to win the debate. As I said above, it is almost like they expect that ZOS will take whatever measure wins the debate.

To me, this roots back to the age old issue with communication. I've been writing this response for a couple hours in my head, but @ZOS_GinaBruno recently tweeted this, and that has emboldened me to post it::

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

So, Gina... here is my answer.... I see a number of things as I am on the forum that I feel ZOS is at fault for...

1) Bugs with no commentary. Fixes can drag out for weeks, or months, and pretty much all that happens in social media is that players continue to debate whether it is actually going to be fixed, how it is going to be fixed, and when that will happen. Worse, because people only see players talking about it, I have seen comments wondering if ZOS even knows. It is not reasonable for ZOS to pop in an constantly say "we know" and "still waiting for a fix", but there needs to be a way for players to find this out whenever they want to know that it is not actively being fixed.

I would like to see a bug tracker of some sort, but that is a tall ask. Perhaps a Known Issues area of the forum where the first comment is the curated status would work.

2) Debates over things gone wrong, or changes to the game with no input from ZOS. I don't care whether it is auction house, overland difficulty, housing limits, battleground queues, or another topic, there comes a time when I think ZOS needs to set down the popcorn and weigh in on the matter.

At some point, things needs to be cleared up and debates need to be closed, but not before ZOS lets people know what to expect. I don't expect ZOS to reveal the galactic utterly top secret plans they have, but definitely outline the ZOS position on the matter, especially if the topic of discussion is not something that is planned, or planned to be planned. Write it up as a Support article, thank people for their input, post the link, lock the threads. Update the support article periodically.

For example... When the fake tank thing was starting a couple months back, Gilliam posted a series of Tweets on the matter. That sort of thing should be polished up and posted as a Support article.

3) Fix the forum so that moderators do not get to use the [Z] icon when they write a moderator comment. Only development related comments should be so marked. If the moderators need an icon, I respectfully suggest a mushroom cloud icon (Edit: I swear I had a smiley face and another sentence after this saying just kidding... but ... here is the smiley... )

atherusmora

Elsonso wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The level of toxicity on the forums is frankly unwarranted. Yes, the game has some issues but bashing ZoS, and other posters, isn't going to get them fixed. It is actually possible to discuss issues without pointing fingers and accusing.

I see the root cause here in that ZOS is not taking measures to head off toxicity that they have control over.

I have recently been seeing less tolerance the game or for other players, coupled with a demand that ZOS change something. This inevitably provokes an opposing response, which is not a problem until it festers. I am not completely sure, but at some point, it seems to be very important to win the debate. As I said above, it is almost like they expect that ZOS will take whatever measure wins the debate.

To me, this roots back to the age old issue with communication. I've been writing this response for a couple hours in my head, but @ZOS_GinaBruno recently tweeted this, and that has emboldened me to post it::

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

So, Gina... here is my answer.... I see a number of things as I am on the forum that I feel ZOS is at fault for...

1) Bugs with no commentary. Fixes can drag out for weeks, or months, and pretty much all that happens in social media is that players continue to debate whether it is actually going to be fixed, how it is going to be fixed, and when that will happen. Worse, because people only see players talking about it, I have seen comments wondering if ZOS even knows. It is not reasonable for ZOS to pop in an constantly say "we know" and "still waiting for a fix", but there needs to be a way for players to find this out whenever they want to know that it is not actively being fixed.

I would like to see a bug tracker of some sort, but that is a tall ask. Perhaps a Known Issues area of the forum where the first comment is the curated status would work.

2) Debates over things gone wrong, or changes to the game with no input from ZOS. I don't care whether it is auction house, overland difficulty, housing limits, battleground queues, or another topic, there comes a time when I think ZOS needs to set down the popcorn and weigh in on the matter.

At some point, things needs to be cleared up and debates need to be closed, but not before ZOS lets people know what to expect. I don't expect ZOS to reveal the galactic utterly top secret plans they have, but definitely outline the ZOS position on the matter, especially if the topic of discussion is not something that is planned, or planned to be planned. Write it up as a Support article, thank people for their input, post the link, lock the threads. Update the support article periodically.

For example... When the fake tank thing was starting a couple months back, Gilliam posted a series of Tweets on the matter. That sort of thing should be polished up and posted as a Support article.

3) Fix the forum so that moderators do not get to use the [Z] icon when they write a moderator comment. Only development related comments should be so marked. If the moderators need an icon, I respectfully suggest a mushroom cloud icon

I think you articulated this very well. This is the heart of the OP. Clear and honest communication about player issues. I really like #3. When I see Z, my knee jerk reaction is always, “finally answers” , and then I read the moderators comments and am often disappointed. Distinguishing devs from moderators in the forums is a good step toward more consistent and clear communication.

tmbrinks

Elsonso wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The level of toxicity on the forums is frankly unwarranted. Yes, the game has some issues but bashing ZoS, and other posters, isn't going to get them fixed. It is actually possible to discuss issues without pointing fingers and accusing.

I see the root cause here in that ZOS is not taking measures to head off toxicity that they have control over.

I have recently been seeing less tolerance the game or for other players, coupled with a demand that ZOS change something. This inevitably provokes an opposing response, which is not a problem until it festers. I am not completely sure, but at some point, it seems to be very important to win the debate. As I said above, it is almost like they expect that ZOS will take whatever measure wins the debate.

To me, this roots back to the age old issue with communication. I've been writing this response for a couple hours in my head, but @ZOS_GinaBruno recently tweeted this, and that has emboldened me to post it::

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

So, Gina... here is my answer.... I see a number of things as I am on the forum that I feel ZOS is at fault for...

1) Bugs with no commentary. Fixes can drag out for weeks, or months, and pretty much all that happens in social media is that players continue to debate whether it is actually going to be fixed, how it is going to be fixed, and when that will happen. Worse, because people only see players talking about it, I have seen comments wondering if ZOS even knows. It is not reasonable for ZOS to pop in an constantly say "we know" and "still waiting for a fix", but there needs to be a way for players to find this out whenever they want to know that it is not actively being fixed.

I would like to see a bug tracker of some sort, but that is a tall ask. Perhaps a Known Issues area of the forum where the first comment is the curated status would work.

2) Debates over things gone wrong, or changes to the game with no input from ZOS. I don't care whether it is auction house, overland difficulty, housing limits, battleground queues, or another topic, there comes a time when I think ZOS needs to set down the popcorn and weigh in on the matter.

At some point, things needs to be cleared up and debates need to be closed, but not before ZOS lets people know what to expect. I don't expect ZOS to reveal the galactic utterly top secret plans they have, but definitely outline the ZOS position on the matter, especially if the topic of discussion is not something that is planned, or planned to be planned. Write it up as a Support article, thank people for their input, post the link, lock the threads. Update the support article periodically.

For example... When the fake tank thing was starting a couple months back, Gilliam posted a series of Tweets on the matter. That sort of thing should be polished up and posted as a Support article.

3) Fix the forum so that moderators do not get to use the [Z] icon when they write a moderator comment. Only development related comments should be so marked. If the moderators need an icon, I respectfully suggest a mushroom cloud icon

I agree. I've been playing BDO a bit more than ESO lately and pretty much every single update (weekly), there is usually an accompanying "Known Issues" post, where they post the issues they're aware of and what they're working towards.

As far as point 2. ZoS very clearly stated their stance on an Auction House at launch, and I know the threads previous have linked that information. Overland Difficulty, there's a stickied thread on it. Housing Limits - they have directly and explicitly explained why they are where they're at. BG queues - they've tried things in-game to meet the needs of players (whether they've worked or not is a different story)

So, for some issues, ZoS has been very forthright, yet we still get the same threads over and over, then usually the same 12-18 people chime in the same arguments they've used in all other iterations of the same thread. No amount of others bringing up "official ZoS responses" to them in the threads have quieted them down. We all have a right to have disagreements with design decisions that the game-makers make. But the "strategy" of just drowning the forums in multiple topics, over and over, removes the ability to even have a debate about it, because it's all about who can yell the loudest about it (which sadly is how the real world has become since the advent of internet/mass media)

I agree they should be written up as support articles so people have them as reference. However, I sadly don't think that would change anything.

Point 3. Amen.

Ippokrates

It is Internet Marketing Rulebook - it rewards negative content, so everyone from forums to streamers sometimes putting such stuff forward.

Personally, i have met in eso maybe handful of real tools... Most people just don't care, and everywhere where i put some effort and interract with others, I have met real nice ppl.

Blinx

I would ammend that to is" the ESO forum community at war with itself?", you have 3 camps, the Over zealous white knights, the Over Zealous Critics, and the middlemen, often the middlemen get trampled for not entirely siding with A or B.
And often threads get derailed by one of the first 2 camps, with one poster or another feeling they have to respond to every criticism, or praise for or against to prove their point, and it just makes me avoid many threads when I see whom the original OP is.

Merlin13KAGL

atherusmora wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The level of toxicity on the forums is frankly unwarranted. Yes, the game has some issues but bashing ZoS, and other posters, isn't going to get them fixed. It is actually possible to discuss issues without pointing fingers and accusing.

I see the root cause here in that ZOS is not taking measures to head off toxicity that they have control over.

I have recently been seeing less tolerance the game or for other players, coupled with a demand that ZOS change something. This inevitably provokes an opposing response, which is not a problem until it festers. I am not completely sure, but at some point, it seems to be very important to win the debate. As I said above, it is almost like they expect that ZOS will take whatever measure wins the debate.

To me, this roots back to the age old issue with communication. I've been writing this response for a couple hours in my head, but @ZOS_GinaBruno recently tweeted this, and that has emboldened me to post it::

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

So, Gina... here is my answer.... I see a number of things as I am on the forum that I feel ZOS is at fault for...

1) Bugs with no commentary. Fixes can drag out for weeks, or months, and pretty much all that happens in social media is that players continue to debate whether it is actually going to be fixed, how it is going to be fixed, and when that will happen. Worse, because people only see players talking about it, I have seen comments wondering if ZOS even knows. It is not reasonable for ZOS to pop in an constantly say "we know" and "still waiting for a fix", but there needs to be a way for players to find this out whenever they want to know that it is not actively being fixed.

I would like to see a bug tracker of some sort, but that is a tall ask. Perhaps a Known Issues area of the forum where the first comment is the curated status would work.

2) Debates over things gone wrong, or changes to the game with no input from ZOS. I don't care whether it is auction house, overland difficulty, housing limits, battleground queues, or another topic, there comes a time when I think ZOS needs to set down the popcorn and weigh in on the matter.

At some point, things needs to be cleared up and debates need to be closed, but not before ZOS lets people know what to expect. I don't expect ZOS to reveal the galactic utterly top secret plans they have, but definitely outline the ZOS position on the matter, especially if the topic of discussion is not something that is planned, or planned to be planned. Write it up as a Support article, thank people for their input, post the link, lock the threads. Update the support article periodically.

For example... When the fake tank thing was starting a couple months back, Gilliam posted a series of Tweets on the matter. That sort of thing should be polished up and posted as a Support article.

3) Fix the forum so that moderators do not get to use the [Z] icon when they write a moderator comment. Only development related comments should be so marked. If the moderators need an icon, I respectfully suggest a mushroom cloud icon

I think you articulated this very well. This is the heart of the OP. Clear and honest communication about player issues. I really like #3. When I see Z, my knee jerk reaction is always, “finally answers” , and then I read the moderators comments and am often disappointed. Distinguishing devs from moderators in the forums is a good step toward more consistent and clear communication.

They won't do that any time soon, and I don't blame them. All that would successfully do is get them tagged to death when they presumably don''t have as much time to forum comment as the mods would.

Perhaps if half the posts didn't follow with 5 versions of @AnswerMySuperImportantPostFirst they would consider it.

It's the antenna ball theory. They're great for finding your car until everyone in the parking lot decides they need to add the exact same one to their own.

Mods know you're there. Mods read the posts. We wouldn't get so many "play nice" responses if they didn't.

MentalxHammer

The contention in this community stems from the same thing that makes it so great.

ESO is an MMO that satisfies many different desires, the game is fun as a casual completionist, hardcore PvE raider, or a creative housing editor or artist. I myself have enjoyed thousands of hours of content in this game as a PvP only player, venturing to other content only to assemble gear for PvP builds.

Whenever many individuals with so many different interests and outlooks are placed within the same environment there is bound to be argument. I love that so many different types of players can all enjoy the same game in different ways. It’s okay that we argue sometimes, because it’s impossible for ZOS to please everyone at once.

DagenHawk

atherusmora wrote: »

From toxic casuals to toxic elitist, No-CP diehards to CP and Proc lovers, toxic negativity and postivity; From Twitch to Twitter and everything in between, it seems there’s no end to the discord within nearly every facet of the ESO community.

The discord is blown way out of proportion, [snip] Compared to some other MMO's where players have taken their venom into the real world, ESO is a fairly welcoming community, sure there are some bad incidences, but hey welcome to the internet, and in ESO you can truly ignore all of the toxicity if you want. I am living proof of that. I play on different platforms( I have friends on each) I have experienced everything the game has to offer on all three platforms and I have been able to avoid almost all of the Toxicity.

If you go looking for it you will find it, but that is true of any MMO, Toxic players love to be Toxic because they know there will always be someone to cry about it and that gives them a false sense of Power.

If you ask me the entire argument is silly. Play the game ignore the jerks

simple

[edited for baiting]

Jeffrey530

Just glad there aren't posts about New World killing eso anymore lol.

Rohamad_Ali

This one is not at war with anyone. That would lead to bitterness which is a poison pill you swallow in hopes someone else will suffer. Pointless expedition. If I were to want to suffer, it would be with my own skooma. Everytime THIS ONE LOOKS AT HIS OWN PROBLEMS, Vampirism, skooma addiction and a wandering mind, everyone else does not look so bad under scrutiny. Besides, Tammiel she is simulated violence yes. It is the bright side of dark ambitions that is best to rest. Positive criticism is of the game and not the people in it or making it.

SSX_Gryphon

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Society is a dumpster fire because society has allowed it.

This all day. It's a symptom of who we are as people. There's not a single one of us who isn't a problem for somebody out there based on thier attitude and values.

We're a bunch of imperfect people complaining about a bunch people who are imperfect.

Rohamad_Ali

SSX_Gryphon wrote: »

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Society is a dumpster fire because society has allowed it.

This all day. It's a symptom of who we are as people. There's not a single one of us who isn't a problem for somebody out there based on thier attitude and values.

We're a bunch of imperfect people complaining about a bunch people who are imperfect.

Some folks are determined to have all things their way and on their terms. For instance while hiking, a man asked Where are all the bathrooms out here? We are in a forest mind you. I said about 5 miles back the trail you came. So he started the long track back. While the birds, deer, squirrels and myself just stared with jaws dropped.

BronzeCaiman

If you ask me the real problem with the game is that content remains difficult even when it's antiquited, the devs are gatekeeping casuals at this point. There was a time when content would get nerfed but the endgame community was against it so I do feel they have contributed to the state we are in. They advertise the game as play as you want but it has so many inherent problems such as certain classes being extremely inferior in certain roles. They said they didn't want to have homogenized classes but honestly it hurts the game not helps it, a class should be mostly cosmetics of skills with a few niche things to set it apart, that's why so many people want spell crafting in my opinion. I understand people who run for leaderboards will feel rewarded completing the hardest content with a new record, but if you feel it's not worth it maybe tell ZoS you want better leaderboard rewards. What about players that can't complete the content they paid money for because they can't put in X amount of time to perfect weaving or etc, or pull X amount of DPS or can't get into a group because of the class they play. The trials gear has been devalued already with the collection book so i see no reason we even have one shots in veteran trials like Maw of Lorkaj, where you should be left at 1 HP for mixing light and dark players. And in veteran Rockgrove, you should also live with 1 HP if you get stepped on by the behemoth boss. Save the brutal one shots for Hard Mode. The game has become an egotistical parade where doing X amount of DPS and I have X Title is the goal and it's sad, I thought the game was supposed to be about having fun. Titles are meaningless anyways as I saw some people selling the emperor title for 64 million gold in zone chat (PC EU our economy is insanely inflated). This is my favorite franchise, but if my wife didn't play with me I would have quit long ago. She held out hope for almost 7 years that DK healer would be good one day, now she's a warden main because she has just lost faith in ZoS entirely. TLDR the game needs to cater to it's hugely casual player base by nerfing massive amounts of content, and let the hardcore players do veteran hard modes, pvp, dueling, or just score push, because the design and difficulty of the game is what is dividing the community. If you actually read this, blessings of the divines upon you Vestige.

atherusmora

BlackArgonian wrote: »

If you actually read this, blessings of the divines upon you Vestige.

The Divines are dead. Hail Sithis. Thanks for the feedback!

Sylvermynx

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

SSX_Gryphon wrote: »

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Society is a dumpster fire because society has allowed it.

This all day. It's a symptom of who we are as people. There's not a single one of us who isn't a problem for somebody out there based on thier attitude and values.

We're a bunch of imperfect people complaining about a bunch people who are imperfect.

Some folks are determined to have all things their way and on their terms. For instance while hiking, a man asked Where are all the bathrooms out here? We are in a forest mind you. I said about 5 miles back the trail you came. So he started the long track back. While the birds, deer, squirrels and myself just stared with jaws dropped.

This made me laugh hysterically.... True story: we used to hunt elk up in Utah's high country, in this case specifically the High Tops above Richfield, as high as you can go up Salina Canyon. I'd bought a new 1995 diesel F250, and we were actually just staying in a motel room in Salina, because this was before we had a trailer, and between dogs (motels back then weren't happy about pets....)

So, opening day we were out before daybreak, and found a good place (from previous scouting) to set up. Didn't see anything by early afternoon, so started back down the dirt roads.... one of which is actually an ATV trail though not marked as such. By this time, I really really needed a bathroom (as I'm female - I mean, you KNOW god is male as he made men able to stand up to pee....) Gritting my teeth, I hung on (I was driving as that year husband had the spike bull permit) and drove and drove and.... drove.... and....

I look up in a fairly open area, KNOWING it's time - I can't go any farther and there's not a decent sized bush anywhere - but.... there's a really GORGEOUS small lake....

And right there in a camping area near that lake is a.... Forest Service potty.

No joke, I was crying as I slammed on the brakes, shut the truck off, grabbed the roll of TP (eh, you ALWAYS take your own!), and bailed out at a run. I have NEVER been so grateful for something so simple as a Forest Service pit potty in my entire 74 years of life.

Someday something will remind me to tell the rest of that trip down an ATV trail in a Ford F250 - thankfully 4wd, but without much fuel.

BalticBlues

Yes, there is was a war.
PvP Stam streamers took care that ZOS killed 95% of Mag builds.

• Light Armor was killed for every class except Sorcs by nerfing Mag shields by 50%, so in Light Armor each siege weapon kills you at once.
• Mag pets were nerfed to the point that pet damage is useless in PvP.
• Mag proc sets were nerfed to scale with insane Spell/Weapon damage - so only Stam can use them.
• New Proc sets were introduced killing all skill in the game (Dark Convergence, Hrothgar..)
• Smart BG objectives which were fun were replaced by DUMB Death Match only mode.

Yes, there is was a war. And after 3 years of war,
PvP now consists of 90% Stam which is boring and most of the time is empty.
PvE consists of 90% almost identical crit builds which is also boring.

Chaos2088

Uvi_AUT

As someone who plays exactly like you (I never even set foot in a Trial onmce, because there is no Groupfinder for it), I have to say......ehm....what?

Where is that feud you are talking about? I never even heard of anything like that. Not in media-outlets, nor in this Forums or the Steam-Forums and not even close in game.

Does all this come from watching Streamers? [snip]

[Edited for Bashing]