The Fake Tanks and Healers have gotten so bad, I don't even want to play anymore.

Hawco10

As a healer, I’m getting fed up with the fake dps tbh. It’s gotten worse. Taking ages to kill bosses,mobs etc. Running off Into the distance, standing in red circles and dying repeatedly. No amount of healing can help them. Sometimes I get lucky and the dps does great. Stands in the right spots and we breeze through everything.
Can’t speak to fake healing, that’s one role that should never be faked, but fake tanks? For me anyway, it can be a blessing in disguise in normal dungeons as it’s usually guys farming stuff and we get through the content quickly. Never really seen a normal dungeon that needs a tank tbh, but vet content ? That’s way different.
Just my two cents.
Please don’t stand in red circles and blame the healer-thx.

endgamesmug

I gave up tanking randoms a couple of years back, sometimes it wasnt needed and sometimes it was just super depressing with people who took ages to kill everything.

Amottica

Nemezijus wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Nemezijus wrote: »

All these issues with fake roles in ESO are just the results of flaws in the automated grouping. If the system can be abused easily - there will be people who will do it.

I think a much better option would be a public advertisement board, where a group leader can post what roles they are looking for to fill the group with a custom text like "vMGF 1T 2DD, CP1600+" or "daily random, any role, low level welcome".
And in case of fake role joining, the group leader can just kick them out.

It works really well in guild wars 2, and I see no real reason why it couldn't work here.
You could make your own custom groups and dont need to spam Craglorn with the lfg which gets lost in the zone chat very fast.

With 5 guilds with up to 500 members we already have something similar.

Yes, but I am talking about a server-wide UI tool, where anyone can advertise their group with custom message and a 'Join Group' button through which people can automatically be added to the group. And the group advertiser (the group leader) has the power to kick those who don't meet the listing criteria.

Considering the existing, and very misplaced, toxicity concerning CP I do not think it is a good idea.

For some reason, there seems to be this thing about CP, that somehow a player with X amount of CP is both experienced and knows how to play. High CP does not mean they know how to do damage or tank or heal a group. When at CP 160 I was doing more DPS with a couple of dots and heavy attacks than two CP-capped players (CP 1.0) then I can safely say it does not mean much.

So again, if a player wants to advertise forming a group they can do it from their guilds.

FeedbackOnly

Devs should actually play tanks and healers of different classes in dungeons

Dojohoda

I did my part this evening. I geared up my nord DK tank and real-tanked black drake villa back to back to back with dungeon finder for 14 runs which took approx 4 hours. Sometimes I had new questers in there and lowbies. It was all good.

madrab73

The underlying problem is that damage is way too high which enables burning through mechanics. Cut it in half and we might see a change.

What_In_Tarnation

madrab73 wrote: »

The underlying problem is that damage is way too high which enables burning through mechanics. Cut it in half and we might see a change.

I'm not sure about this one. The problem about why people queue as fake tank is dd role takes way too long to get a real tank.
But why a real tank don't wanna queue a group? it's mostly just.. so many bad dds in queues.

Cut damage in haf imo won't solve the problem, instead it will even drive real tanks away from queue. Since it will just make bad dds even worse.

KhajiitLivesMatter

madrab73 wrote: »

The underlying problem is that damage is way too high which enables burning through mechanics. Cut it in half and we might see a change.

yea maybe but not in random normaly

there was a time 20k dps was good and even back than i fake queued cause it was easier

the problem is not the dmg done its the dmg received if u get 0 dmg and dont need a healer / tank than many people just consider faking a role more efficent

ApoAlaia

The appeal of cutting in line is the knowledge that most of the people in the queue is still going to still abide by it despite the clear display of antisocial behaviour by the individual engaging in the activity.

What if the solution is we all embrace it?

According to these threads, which do crop up often, 'abiding by the rules' is utterly unnecessary and in fact it only contributes to longer queues and slower clear times.

So... let's just all do it?

Taraezor

My definition: A fake tank is anyone who lacks a taunt and is not wearing heavy armour.

A player who fails to pull mobs off the healer (especially) or DPS (who are struggling under the weight of the onslaught) is just bad, not a fake. That player needs to be helped, not vilified.

DPS should at least ask to pause a while so they can adjust their skill bar to compensate (shields/heals). That alone is sufficent "hint" to the tank.

"Just a mo mate, I need to add another heal and shield to my skill bar as I'm getting a lot of attention from the mobs in this dungeon / the boss has taken a liking to me".

Interested in other's opinion here. Modern parlance is "passive agressive" am I wrong. Not sure but that is what I would say lol at the most extreme if I was annoyed.

Other things like fight knowledge, gear quality etc are a dice roll if you are using the group finder. The moment I click the "join queue" button I know that I will be grouped with random people.

But it remains: players who queue as tank when they shouldn't.

How about a group alert at the start, once inside the dungeon, that "the designated tank does not have a taunt equipped on the skill bar". Also, at "Join queue" time the tank must have that skill on the skill bar. The server AI checks the player's skill bar and gear for a taunt on demand.

Less charitably I'd include a check for minimum of four pieces of heavy armour at queue and also insde the dungeon entrance.

Then some mechanism for a quick kick vote.

But it remains that the player queued as a fake. Penaly of one hour. Second offence within 24 hours results in a 24 hour queue ban.

By the way. I am probably bad at DPS. But never call me fake.

Xebov

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Devs should actually play tanks and healers of different classes in dungeons

This wouldnt change anything given that the majority of the issues come from players not from the game itself.

There are some mechanical problems, like support players need more gear and more knowledge to be effective and out of group content becomes a nightmare.

The far bigger problem are other players. Ppl that deal no damage and have zero knowledge of any mechanics. Many can not even bash or evade something. Worst case they start harassing the support players that basically carry them around.

Iam currently in the process of filling my sticker book and do alot of normal DLC dungeons. I met players that full power attack immune bosses, that attack the wrong targets, that dont do any mechanics (i had many dungeons done only because i did it). I even had players who where unable to simply bash something. The average group DPS barely got beyond 25k and that even with 3 DDs. With this situation players come here and complain that we dont have enought real tanks and healers and bring up ideas that would cripple the remaining one just to get a better experience for themselves while they themselves created the issue in the first place.

Parasaurolophus

Xebov wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Devs should actually play tanks and healers of different classes in dungeons

This wouldnt change anything given that the majority of the issues come from players not from the game itself.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with you. What are the players' fault? Is that a normal dungeon is so easy? Is that the easiest way to farm crystals and exp? You cannot educate every player or explain to him why the system works anyway.
Personally, I don't see any problems at all. Rusher in the role of a tank is always a guarantor of quick and easy closing of a normal dungeon. Where did people get so many problems with this, I don’t understand. It's like we're playing different games.

Xebov

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Sorry, but I totally disagree with you. What are the players' fault?

DDs have longer queue times because there are not enought tanks and healers to keep up with the demand.
The average DD you get in a dungeon is just plain bad. We are talking 10k DPS or less with no regards to mechanics or any knowledge of the game while at the same time harrassing actual support players.
This leads to tanks and healers leaving the queue and simply run with their friends and guilds which they know bring up a certain level of performance.
This leads to even less Tanks and Healers and causes ppl to skip the line.

So yes its the players fault for being unwilling to educate themselves and take up responsibilities.

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Rusher in the role of a tank is always a guarantor of quick and easy closing of a normal dungeon.

Thats not the case. As a real tank i get alot of fake healers in my group and around 50% of them are just low tier DDs that dont add anything meaningful to the groups performance. In case where they are good its a fast and easy run of course, but often enought these 3 DDs dont pull anything. I dont mind fake healers, but i can at least expect these players to bring up a performance level that gives them the right to do this.

svendf

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Got to improve situation for tanks and healers. If you design content for just DPS...then you get what we got now.

People are faking roles because queue is too long and frankly tanks and healers aren't needed

Tanks and healers are indeed needed, see it everyday after a long pause doing dungeons. My healer ends up tanking and when on my tank, the dungeon is under control. My healer often carry these dd´s.

DD que is not ZOS fault. It´s player´s, who insist creating dd´s. I agree ZOS need to lock roles so people, who want to play a specific role can do so and enjoy ESO.

People, who say healers and tanks are not needed often forget to mention "they" don´t need them. Or do they ?

Four tanks can run vWGT without dd´s. Are dd´s needed ? Four healers can run content aswell. That doesn´t mean dd´s are not needed. The debate is running on a false track and exclutions.

That said. ZOS need to look at FF 14 to inplement roles the right way

Raideen

Hawco10 wrote: »

As a healer, I’m getting fed up with the fake dps tbh. It’s gotten worse. Taking ages to kill bosses,mobs etc. Running off Into the distance, standing in red circles and dying repeatedly. No amount of healing can help them. Sometimes I get lucky and the dps does great. Stands in the right spots and we breeze through everything.
Can’t speak to fake healing, that’s one role that should never be faked, but fake tanks? For me anyway, it can be a blessing in disguise in normal dungeons as it’s usually guys farming stuff and we get through the content quickly. Never really seen a normal dungeon that needs a tank tbh, but vet content ? That’s way different.
Just my two cents.
Please don’t stand in red circles and blame the healer-thx.

I can't disagree, but please understand that much of what players are doing is a result of bad combat design.

As a healer I am sure you are aware that the person you intend to heal has to be in front of you (more often than not). But keep in mind, a new player who comes from a tab target MMORPG is used to being healed regardless of their position on the playfield. Ranged combat and healing are at odd with each other. Ranged players are using to being "squishy" in melee range of other players in pvp, or even bosses who cleave. So, they do what they are designed to do, play at range. But in ESO you have ranged wanting to play at range and healers who have to be behind the ranged. The classes do not compliment each other, they conflict.

With this understanding, it helps conjure up more patience with some DPS players. They are not necessarily bad, or dumb or anything, they are playing how their class was designed to play. Their playstyle being in opposition to yours is not their fault, its the design of the game.

svendf

KaGaOri wrote: »

Decided to bite the bullet and add tank toon to my dd and healer. Trying to level undaunted to unlock inner fire and, saddly, dungeons are not exactly fun at this stage. Wonder if all those high cp players who run past my lvl 15 tank and solo everything are the same people who will be later complaining about lack of real tanks in the end game.

Yes. They are very often the same people

With heavy armor speed penalty and no cp speed bonus my tank moves at speed of geriatric snail in comparison, so most fights are almost over when I get there and offten get there with not enough stamina to taunt before boss is dead. Of course quest can be finished only if npcs speak fast enough. And yes, I write in chat I have a quest beforehand, there are even 2 of us questing sometimes - rest of group doesn't care.

Right again

Maybe shouldn't complain, since getting insta-queue + getting hard-carried. Problem is I'm not learning how to tank and it will become problem at some point as more dungeons unlock for the toon. Easily could end up stuck in just the easy base game content for a long time / permanently this way. Bet that's where all those missing end game tanks are - runing easy content only or have given up tanking entirely.

Most tanks and healers today are buff monkey´s. It´s not fun and that´s why they run norm dungeons and norm DLC`s
And as you say. The speedrunners are a big problem if you wanna level a tank. ZOS should look at FF 14

Wish ZOS found some way to discourage high levels speedrunning easy content in spite of low level toons, instead of encouraging it with rewards.

Most high levels aren´t the problem as I see it. Im a high level myself and have absolutly no problem waiting. This is an attitude problem on the personal level

Chrysa1is

March of Sacrifices is solo-able. I think you could've done it solo if you went at it more. Perhaps your build might not be ideal for it? I don't know

Also with the roles, with the way that the game is going, any class can be built to fit any role available, which is what the problem is. There is nothing that zos can do is there really? If they tie roles to classes, for example, DKs are a tank role, but that player builds that DK to be dps, it messes everything up. There is nothing that zos can do. "Play how you want".

I queue as a fake tank just so i don't spend 30mins waiting in queue as dps just to do my daily dungeon. I wish i could just run daily dungeon solo so i don't have to, but I cant. Dungeon finder needs reworking.

People who queue as fake roles should not be punished. That is a ridiculous idea and im against it entirely.

The whole thing is messy. Needs a total rework.

Parasaurolophus

svendf wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

Decided to bite the bullet and add tank toon to my dd and healer. Trying to level undaunted to unlock inner fire and, saddly, dungeons are not exactly fun at this stage. Wonder if all those high cp players who run past my lvl 15 tank and solo everything are the same people who will be later complaining about lack of real tanks in the end game.

Yes. They are very often the same people

With heavy armor speed penalty and no cp speed bonus my tank moves at speed of geriatric snail in comparison, so most fights are almost over when I get there and offten get there with not enough stamina to taunt before boss is dead. Of course quest can be finished only if npcs speak fast enough. And yes, I write in chat I have a quest beforehand, there are even 2 of us questing sometimes - rest of group doesn't care.

Right again

Maybe shouldn't complain, since getting insta-queue + getting hard-carried. Problem is I'm not learning how to tank and it will become problem at some point as more dungeons unlock for the toon. Easily could end up stuck in just the easy base game content for a long time / permanently this way. Bet that's where all those missing end game tanks are - runing easy content only or have given up tanking entirely.

Most tanks and healers today are buff monkey´s. It´s not fun and that´s why they run norm dungeons and norm DLC`s
And as you say. The speedrunners are a big problem if you wanna level a tank. ZOS should look at FF 14

Wish ZOS found some way to discourage high levels speedrunning easy content in spite of low level toons, instead of encouraging it with rewards.

Most high levels aren´t the problem as I see it. Im a high level myself and have absolutly no problem waiting. This is an attitude problem on the personal level

Agree. I myself always run queue in normal rnd as a fake tank and never had any problems with it. As well as any complaints from other players. What is the problem if normal content is completed easily?
Moreover, now I often become in vIR behind the mask as a fake healer, and no one has ever had a problem with this. On the contrary, people say that 3 dd is better.

Xebov

svendf wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

Decided to bite the bullet and add tank toon to my dd and healer. Trying to level undaunted to unlock inner fire and, saddly, dungeons are not exactly fun at this stage. Wonder if all those high cp players who run past my lvl 15 tank and solo everything are the same people who will be later complaining about lack of real tanks in the end game.

Yes. They are very often the same people

I would put it a bit differently.

There is a portion of the community that doesnt want to help train new players in tanking. They ignore the needs of tank players and also dont care about how they deal with out of group content. At the same time they expect top tier tanks to be available whenever they need them and they view them as some "free service" they are obligated to get. They will also complain if the "service" doesnt hold up to their expectations. This is not linked to a specific level of level of experience and can be seen across the board.

Darrett

madrab73 wrote: »

The underlying problem is that damage is way too high which enables burning through mechanics. Cut it in half and we might see a change.

In principle this is needed. It’s not really cutting damage in half though, it’s normalizing the curve.

Top DPS do way too much damage, invalidate mechanics and make normal dungeons so easy that new players can never learn content since things melt in 3 seconds. What we need is to make the curve to top DPS more difficult, to the point that a top 1% damage dealer would be doing say 60k, with the median at around 40k.

You still have differences, but not to the point that you can ignore entire class roles because damage is so out of line.

shadyjane62

The only problem with dungeons is that you have to do them with other people. I am solo player, never do dungeons or dlc content. Have never bought one of these dungeon only dlcs and never will. The community is too toxic for any sort of group anything.

Disturbed_One

shadyjane62 wrote: »

The only problem with dungeons is that you have to do them with other people. I am solo player, never do dungeons or dlc content. Have never bought one of these dungeon only dlcs and never will. The community is too toxic for any sort of group anything.

Serious Questions:

Why are you commenting on a thread that is specifically for group content if you never do group content?

How you do you know that group content is toxic if you never do group content?

Isn't this comment just as toxic as the behavior you're (hypothetically) saying exists? (since you don't do the content)

Artim_X

For that fight you need to avoid the boss that negates you and if you're not a tank the boss that is melee will one-shot you if you do not avoid their telegraphed one-shot heavy attack (dodge roll works wonders). The archer just needs to be interrupted every now and then.

On normal, boss isn't impossible without a tank, but if melee boss isn't targeting player who is aware of mechanics and can self sustain the stamina needed to avoid the heavy attack each time, then it'll eventually turn into a wipe.

Initiating a vote kick for the fake tank after the first wipe would have more than likely resulted in a new proper tank popping in to help out. Initiating a kick is anonymous and helps fight the bystander effect of the other players doing nothing to resolve the problem.

StevieKingslayer

I made a tank, and I loved her.
I stopped playing her for a while? You know why? Too many damn leroys. Nothing annoys me more, than people rushing ahead, getting whooped and then whining about it. Idm when my friends do it, I know their skill level. If randoms start doing it to me, I let them die now. I just don't care. Leroy's are fine, but when they leroy and die, and then blame you, there is nothing more annoying. I have thrown trial attempts before because a dps wasnt listening, or doing something ridiculous when they were told thousands of times what to do and just making the night of 11 people longer. I dragged an aoe over them. IDC. Its other players that ruin the tank role for tanks, thats why you barely see any real tanks anymore. Tired of being abused for them dying to their own foolish mistakes, and then we get salty and run aoes and bosses into them, then we go do something with our actual organized groups because why are we wasting our time trying to help people who are just inconsiderate of the group as a whole?

I dont pug tank anymore. I only run for my group or maybe ONE extra dps if Im feeling generous. I'll pug heal because it's dead easy, but I wont pug tank for people anymore. And this is in veteran, not normal. Rarely do I run into a fake tank on vet, and if I do, its one of my friends who knows what their doing anyway so I trust them. You want real tanks? Try vet queues. You have to wait longer, but at least you usually get what you waited for.

WildLight

madrab73 wrote: »

The underlying problem is that damage is way too high which enables burning through mechanics. Cut it in half and we might see a change.

You don't PUG a lot, do you?

etchedpixels

Taraezor wrote: »

How about a group alert at the start, once inside the dungeon, that "the designated tank does not have a taunt equipped on the skill bar". Also, at "Join queue" time the tank must have that skill on the skill bar. The server AI checks the player's skill bar and gear for a taunt on demand.

Less charitably I'd include a check for minimum of four pieces of heavy armour at queue and also insde the dungeon entrance.

The first one isn't a bad idea at all. The heavy armour doesn't work though. You can properly tank normal dungeons with a light armour mag build and shields, or indeed with a few exceptions, in underwear.

Unfortunately though the kind of people willing to deliberately ignore the group and game the system are going to just slot a taunt and never use it, just treating it as a slight loss of dps.

KhajiitLivesMatter

Darrett wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

The underlying problem is that damage is way too high which enables burning through mechanics. Cut it in half and we might see a change.

In principle this is needed. It’s not really cutting damage in half though, it’s normalizing the curve.

Top DPS do way too much damage, invalidate mechanics and make normal dungeons so easy that new players can never learn content since things melt in 3 seconds. What we need is to make the curve to top DPS more difficult, to the point that a top 1% damage dealer would be doing say 60k, with the median at around 40k.

You still have differences, but not to the point that you can ignore entire class roles because damage is so out of line.

that wouldnt fix problems for normal dungoens there was a time where 25k dps was good and even back than people fake queues problem is not the dmg done its the dmg received - if u dont even need to heal ur self as a dd with boss agro than u just dont need a healer/tank and aslong this is the case nothing will change

huntgod_ESO

Simple solution, don't PUG. Find a good social guild, make premades and do randoms with them.

I wish they'd remove the role restrictions and just let people go with 4 of whatever you have, for PUG's give preference to role, but if that role isn't available just stick in next available player.

Taraezor

etchedpixels wrote: »

Taraezor wrote: »

How about a group alert at the start, once inside the dungeon, that "the designated tank does not have a taunt equipped on the skill bar". Also, at "Join queue" time the tank must have that skill on the skill bar. The server AI checks the player's skill bar and gear for a taunt on demand.

Less charitably I'd include a check for minimum of four pieces of heavy armour at queue and also insde the dungeon entrance.

The first one isn't a bad idea at all. The heavy armour doesn't work though. You can properly tank normal dungeons with a light armour mag build and shields, or indeed with a few exceptions, in underwear.

Unfortunately though the kind of people willing to deliberately ignore the group and game the system are going to just slot a taunt and never use it, just treating it as a slight loss of dps.

Yeah good point. Slot it but then don't use it. Sigh.

huntgod_ESO wrote: »

Simple solution, don't PUG. Find a good social guild, make premades and do randoms with them.

Yeah I agree 100%: don't PUG.

Agreeing to PUG means that we are open to all sorts of players. Bad players such as myself no doubt lol as a lacklustre DD. Some really well geared and skilled players who could quite easily solo the content. New players. Bored players just going through the motions so they can get their bonus event rewards. And these nasty players:

QUEUE JUMPERS

I have played a lot of MMOs. The dungeons, mechanics, the 2DD/T/H concept etc are pretty much spot on. If they weren't then ZOS would have changed it long ago or left it as abandon-ware like Cyrodiil.

The problem is the lousy queue jumping attitude of players.

When I queue I have no idea what I will get. Sadly we get some players with a really selfish attitude. That's life.

huntgod_ESO wrote: »

I wish they'd remove the role restrictions and just let people go with 4 of whatever you have, for PUG's give preference to role, but if that role isn't available just stick in next available player.

Maybe.

That realistically means no taunts at all. So boss encounters will have participants constantly moving and thus damage will be lower, sustain issues etc. Every fight like that.

We'll be four individuals and the dungeon difficulty will increase as a result of that.

That will scare off newer players or players struggling to "get good".

Long term very bad for ESO.

svendf

StevieKingslayer wrote: »

I made a tank, and I loved her.
I stopped playing her for a while? You know why? Too many damn leroys. Nothing annoys me more, than people rushing ahead, getting whooped and then whining about it. Idm when my friends do it, I know their skill level. If randoms start doing it to me, I let them die now. I just don't care. Leroy's are fine, but when they leroy and die, and then blame you, there is nothing more annoying. I have thrown trial attempts before because a dps wasnt listening, or doing something ridiculous when they were told thousands of times what to do and just making the night of 11 people longer. I dragged an aoe over them. IDC. Its other players that ruin the tank role for tanks, thats why you barely see any real tanks anymore. Tired of being abused for them dying to their own foolish mistakes, and then we get salty and run aoes and bosses into them, then we go do something with our actual organized groups because why are we wasting our time trying to help people who are just inconsiderate of the group as a whole?

I dont pug tank anymore. I only run for my group or maybe ONE extra dps if Im feeling generous. I'll pug heal because it's dead easy, but I wont pug tank for people anymore. And this is in veteran, not normal. Rarely do I run into a fake tank on vet, and if I do, its one of my friends who knows what their doing anyway so I trust them. You want real tanks? Try vet queues. You have to wait longer, but at least you usually get what you waited for.

Same here. I have three good tanks Warden, DK and a Cro. I love them as they are different - tanking is a fun playstyle. It´s about controlling the mobbs, bosses and more. That said it have stopped after meeting group members using Tormentor gear and taunts que as DD. All my tanks have resist going from 32k to 36k and do ok damage, most importen no buff monkey´s - I can run overland content including some WB´s, that´s what Im doing now on my tanks (questing and faming included).

Part of the problem as I see it is the so called "no tank, healer needed " crowd. You just need one guildmember living on the forums to make it spread out in the guild and same goes for skipperrs, runners, fakeroles.

These same people exspect me to join their vDLC or vBase dungeons run ? Or Trials run ? Crying out in chat in Craglorn for help, where they 30 min early crewed over my low level, leveling tank by fake tanking, speedrunning, skiping and not able to get my xp. Hell no! Not a single chance my healers or DD´s will join them as well.

I mostly pug once a day on one of my healer´s for geos, cp plus gear I need, that´s it and I run normal dungeons.

Lets just say you and I are not alone. Good luck with all mate. Lets hope good times are coming up for the better and for the community.
Cheers