New Zone needs seizure warning

Dolphinsgal

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Out of curiousity, do you think the new zone is worse in that regard than what we already had ingame?
Luckily I don't have an issue with it, so I can't really judge it. But I would have guessed that people spamming apex mount animations, flag fights in pvp and a number of bosses like dsa stage 7 would be way worse for people who are sensitive to flashing bright light.

The new zone is a lot worse, especially if you're not expecting it. Dsa, dungeons, pvp ect I can take precautions ahead of time to try to prevent or minimize the chance of migraines and/or seizures or just avoid dsa or other dungeons like it.

trackdemon5512

Dolphinsgal wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Out of curiousity, do you think the new zone is worse in that regard than what we already had ingame?
Luckily I don't have an issue with it, so I can't really judge it. But I would have guessed that people spamming apex mount animations, flag fights in pvp and a number of bosses like dsa stage 7 would be way worse for people who are sensitive to flashing bright light.

The new zone is a lot worse, especially if you're not expecting it. Dsa, dungeons, pvp ect I can take precautions ahead of time to try to prevent or minimize the chance of migraines and/or seizures or just avoid dsa or other dungeons like it.

Yeah. It really doesn’t help that half of the zone is extremely underlit. The complaints about being unable to see paths or even objects is valid esp in The Sever. If it wasn’t for Almalexia’s Lantern I would never have found the path to the skyshard in the Sever delve.

So regular flashes of light contrasted with the dark atmosphere should be addressed. HDR does help with the underlit area but at the same time it worsens the problem caused by bright flashes.

And while there is a photosensitivity warning the developers should understand that isn’t a blank check to have conditions that spark it.

On a critical note I understand that the development and art team was going for a specific feel with regards to the Sever but as of right now it has completely missed the mark. The area feels more like a void without real characteristics. Lightning strikes are nice the first time but the novelty quickly wears off. The summit comes to mind with needlessly overdoing it.

SilverBride

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

And while there is a photosensitivity warning the developers should understand that isn’t a blank check to have conditions that spark it.

THIS!

etchedpixels

It would be nice if something finally happened. People have been complaining for years about the flash to white affecting them.

It's not just the epilepsy/seizure stuff. For a lot of people with eye and some other conditions (autism being one often linked with it) sudden bright light can be painful, or can cause temporary near blindness as the eye slowly adjusts and recovers over a minute or more.

Turning the white flash to a black fade, making the undaunted hard modes flare to a duller blood red, fixing the spindleclutch arachnophobia to be less bright and allowing people to set a no-bright-light mode : effectively a different gamma curve (with the top end brightness sharply capped) would do wonders and shouldn't be that hard.

etchedpixels

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

The train analogy was poor, but how about the few people narcolepsy shouldn't be racing drivers. Is there a rule they can't be, probably not, but are they knowingly putting themselves in harms way yes. Should all the other drives change the rules and how they drive to "include" this person. No absolutely not.

Still a terrible analogy. Just about everything in vehicle safety is designed with human failing and disability in mind. Techniques taught (like turning your head to look left/right not just eye movement) are there to deal with eye disabilities people may not know they have. The spacing of road signage is in part arranged so you are unlikely to be harmed by a microsleep - because we all do that especially when tired and safety people know that sleep aopnea is massively under-diagnosed even in countries with free health care. You are just so used to it you don't notice it any more than most people notice that light switches now days are a little bit lower, stair rails are a little bit higher, glass at floor level is required to be reinforced. When you go to a music gig everything is very carefully arranged in terms of light levels, frequency of strobing - you just don't notice unless you are into lighting rigs. Same for music video, and many modern games - they are fed through analysis tools and you are required to avoid flashing at certain speed ranges.

Good accessibility is often unnoticeable. Some of it like screen reader support (also shamefully lacking in ESO) is a bit more invasive and needs a menu but if it's off it has no impact.

Jeremy

Dolphinsgal wrote: »

Please no more zones like this one, with all the flashing, blinking lights that move, stationary ones are hard enough but this is overkill. The zone can trigger seizures and migraines at the very least, and eso does not have a seizure warning anywhere I've seen.

Have you tried turning down the quality of the graphics? Sometimes that can help.

DarcyMardin

Just adding my support for turning down the bright flashes everywhere in the game. I’ve been around long enough to know where many of them occur and can thus turn my eyes away from the screen briefly, but it’s brutal on photo sensitive people who have no advance warning of where a quest is suddenly going to spawn a bright flash. And I also agreed that the Deadlands lightening flashes, which are hard to avoid seeing, given how frequent they are, are particularly annoying.

We’ve been asking for down-tuning on the bright flashes for years, so please, ZOS.

Araneae6537

It would be nice to have a toggle for flashing light effects, I agree. The degree of my photosensitivity varies and sometimes I need to avoid the stormy weather and other things or else a headache builds behind my eyes. I would think that this would be especially easy to do for weather since that is client-side, right? It’s not a huge deal for me personally, but I feel for those with more severe sensitivities/reactions.

FeedbackOnly

That was only thing I liked about the zone. The lighting was too notch. It was fun trying to kill self was lighting bolts too

Fennwitty

A 'watch your step' sign doesn't translate into 'it's ok to intentionally leave your sidewalks broken and inaccessible.'

It certainly doesn't give carte blanch to install random speed bumps and create new holes because you like the look of it, and 'hey people were warned right?'

Sure the disclaimer is there for what's already in the game, but it doesn't excuse the continued addition of more and more non-optional flashes which are unnecessary.

A game causing a seizure is bad PR whether they're legally covered or not. ZoS needs to consider implementation options and not immediately default to "how about a glaring bright flash to indicate something is happening?"

RD065

When I saw that lightening at first I thought I was going to have a stroke. There's seems to be a setting for just about everything yet some really important ones aren't there. People want to play games so saying "don't play" doesn't help.

A side note: Game is so dark anyway to help with that especially night time. Thank you.

Dolphinsgal

I'd like to say thank you all, even to those who have the opinion that those of us that have photosensitive issues shouldn't be playing. However to those that have the opinion of well just don't play the game, I sincerely hope you never have to deal with anything even close to this particular issue and if you do hopefully people will be more understanding to you than you have been here.

Thank you for those who have ideas on how to mitigate the flashes and movement(s) of bright lights (I'm on xbox so options are limited). I'd love an option that would leave the game as is for those who enjoy the chaos the flashing creates, and have either a slider or a toggle on/off to lessen either the brightness or lesser the number of times flashes happen (or both). I'm not sure what else could be done or option could be looked at adding to help.

16BitForestCat

I don't even have photosensitivity issues or seizures or migraines, but the combination of chronic poor lighting with bright flashes in ESO frequently gives me headaches. I've adjusted my game and graphics card settings every which way, and it's still a problem. Especially if I play at night, which, let's be real, is the only time many adults and students have to play after work and classes. And if the days are getting shorter in your hemisphere, you've got more night than ever to deal with. Indoor lighting isn't always the greatest.

I've spoken up about this issue in other threads (particularly about the ridiculously bright flashes in scrying, but also about the other bright lights and flashes users have brought up in this thread too). It's depressing nothing has been done yet despite all the threads people have made, and even more depressing to read responses from the people who can't see past their own desires [snip]

(If ZOS ever fixes the lighting and flashing issues, I can finally move on to only trying to get them to fix those unnecessarily loud sound effects that come out of nowhere, like that one REALLY LOUD crack of thunder that happens during rainstorms and gives me a major headache as a headphones user.)

It's so nice to finally see someone on the team acknowledge they're following the issue, @ZOS_Kevin!

[edited for baiting]

Adremal

Fennwitty wrote: »

A 'watch your step' sign doesn't translate into 'it's ok to intentionally leave your sidewalks broken and inaccessible.'

It certainly doesn't give carte blanch to install random speed bumps and create new holes because you like the look of it, and 'hey people were warned right?'

Sure the disclaimer is there for what's already in the game, but it doesn't excuse the continued addition of more and more non-optional flashes which are unnecessary.

A game causing a seizure is bad PR whether they're legally covered or not. ZoS needs to consider implementation options and not immediately default to "how about a glaring bright flash to indicate something is happening?"

It's not broken nor inaccessible. ESO is actually very tame when it comes to those effects compared to other video games. Mass Effect and the Witcher series immediately come to mind, plus just about any shooter (muzzle flashes, flashbangs) and any spell-heavy game including say, Skyrim, both the storms and playing as a mage. That's not to mention cases that made it to the headlines such as Pokémon (though I think it was an episode of the anime in that case) and Cyberpunk.
Besides, ESO's effects don't fall into what's been studied thus far (this is just an example, and while the sampling pool is quite narrow and the mechanisms still poorly understood, it's interesting to look at those numbers - and examples, such as Super Mario Word. Lightning strikes in the Deadlands . Besides as I said, any game (or watching TV, eating, even just thinking) can cause a seizure.
And if someone has photosensitivity issues, especially potentially dangerous ones such as PS reflex epilepsys, the "don't play" argument actually holds (or at the very least see a specialist before doing so), kind of like the "don't ride a rollercoaster if you have heart issues" holds, @RD065
Not to mention that, again, the mechanisms are still poorly understood, and the causes for both threatening reactions and non-threatening ones such as simple migraines aren't clear, and very likely correlated to other factors such as stress, fatigue, intoxication and so on. The artistic direction of a game (or any media) shouldn't be impacted by speculative concerns, and certainly can't be tailored to an individual's unique condition or preferences, as harsh as that may sound. One user said he/she didn't like how the Sever turned out, for instance. I love it, in no small measure thanks to the lightning strikes - whose frequency is nowhere near what's considered dangerous, not in studies regarding epilepsy, nor in the research of non-lethal incapacitating weapons using light.

Dolphinsgal

Adremal wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

A 'watch your step' sign doesn't translate into 'it's ok to intentionally leave your sidewalks broken and inaccessible.'

It certainly doesn't give carte blanch to install random speed bumps and create new holes because you like the look of it, and 'hey people were warned right?'

Sure the disclaimer is there for what's already in the game, but it doesn't excuse the continued addition of more and more non-optional flashes which are unnecessary.

A game causing a seizure is bad PR whether they're legally covered or not. ZoS needs to consider implementation options and not immediately default to "how about a glaring bright flash to indicate something is happening?"

It's not broken nor inaccessible. ESO is actually very tame when it comes to those effects compared to other video games. Mass Effect and the Witcher series immediately come to mind, plus just about any shooter (muzzle flashes, flashbangs) and any spell-heavy game including say, Skyrim, both the storms and playing as a mage. That's not to mention cases that made it to the headlines such as Pokémon (though I think it was an episode of the anime in that case) and Cyberpunk.
Besides, ESO's effects don't fall into what's been studied thus far (this is just an example, and while the sampling pool is quite narrow and the mechanisms still poorly understood, it's interesting to look at those numbers - and examples, such as Super Mario Word. Lightning strikes in the Deadlands . Besides as I said, any game (or watching TV, eating, even just thinking) can cause a seizure.
And if someone has photosensitivity issues, especially potentially dangerous ones such as PS reflex epilepsys, the "don't play" argument actually holds (or at the very least see a specialist before doing so), kind of like the "don't ride a rollercoaster if you have heart issues" holds, @RD065
Not to mention that, again, the mechanisms are still poorly understood, and the causes for both threatening reactions and non-threatening ones such as simple migraines aren't clear, and very likely correlated to other factors such as stress, fatigue, intoxication and so on. The artistic direction of a game (or any media) shouldn't be impacted by speculative concerns, and certainly can't be tailored to an individual's unique condition or preferences, as harsh as that may sound. One user said he/she didn't like how the Sever turned out, for instance. I love it, in no small measure thanks to the lightning strikes - whose frequency is nowhere near what's considered dangerous, not in studies regarding epilepsy, nor in the research of non-lethal incapacitating weapons using light.

I basically only play eso and have been given the ok and even encouraged by my doctors to play as a way of diverting my mind from other health issues. I will not play fps or the other games you mentioned due to the fact that I know those games are major triggers. Eso for the most part isn't horrible when it comes to photosensitive issues (for me). I wasn't suggesting zos change their vision for the new zone, just that a warning for this particular zone would be nice. That way those of us with issues can take precautions and be prepared for possible issues to arise. I would've tackled the zone a bit differently and had someone close that could've shut off the tv or exited the game for me if a seizure struck. I'm lucky to have a service dog who was able to get help when the seizure started, but there are those who don't have that luxury.

VaranisArano

Adremal wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

A 'watch your step' sign doesn't translate into 'it's ok to intentionally leave your sidewalks broken and inaccessible.'

It certainly doesn't give carte blanch to install random speed bumps and create new holes because you like the look of it, and 'hey people were warned right?'

Sure the disclaimer is there for what's already in the game, but it doesn't excuse the continued addition of more and more non-optional flashes which are unnecessary.

A game causing a seizure is bad PR whether they're legally covered or not. ZoS needs to consider implementation options and not immediately default to "how about a glaring bright flash to indicate something is happening?"

It's not broken nor inaccessible. ESO is actually very tame when it comes to those effects compared to other video games. Mass Effect and the Witcher series immediately come to mind, plus just about any shooter (muzzle flashes, flashbangs) and any spell-heavy game including say, Skyrim, both the storms and playing as a mage. That's not to mention cases that made it to the headlines such as Pokémon (though I think it was an episode of the anime in that case) and Cyberpunk.
Besides, ESO's effects don't fall into what's been studied thus far (this is just an example, and while the sampling pool is quite narrow and the mechanisms still poorly understood, it's interesting to look at those numbers - and examples, such as Super Mario Word. Lightning strikes in the Deadlands . Besides as I said, any game (or watching TV, eating, even just thinking) can cause a seizure.
And if someone has photosensitivity issues, especially potentially dangerous ones such as PS reflex epilepsys, the "don't play" argument actually holds (or at the very least see a specialist before doing so), kind of like the "don't ride a rollercoaster if you have heart issues" holds, RD065
Not to mention that, again, the mechanisms are still poorly understood, and the causes for both threatening reactions and non-threatening ones such as simple migraines aren't clear, and very likely correlated to other factors such as stress, fatigue, intoxication and so on. The artistic direction of a game (or any media) shouldn't be impacted by speculative concerns, and certainly can't be tailored to an individual's unique condition or preferences, as harsh as that may sound. One user said he/she didn't like how the Sever turned out, for instance. I love it, in no small measure thanks to the lightning strikes - whose frequency is nowhere near what's considered dangerous, not in studies regarding epilepsy, nor in the research of non-lethal incapacitating weapons using light.

Saying the ESO is not as bad as other games is not actually much of an endorsement of ESO at all. Rather it's a condemnation of those other games that are worse.

And saying that ESO is neither broken nor inaccessible does not prevent portions of it from being broken/inaccessible/uncomfortable for certain players who have told you so in this thread. (And who have told ZOS so in past threads.) The discomfort and worse described here is not speculative nor is it unique to a few individuals.


You've written a lot to say that no change is necessary. I'm not convinced, since players are being adversely impacted by ongoing design choices made by the Dev team, and this could be alleviated by accessibility options and better informed designers. This is a problem created out of ignorance more than malice, and I'm sure that when the Devs who designed the Deadlands learn that their design gives players headaches, they'll feel that's contrary to their intent that every player be able to experience the zone and its story.

You may have loved the design of the Deadlands. I encourage you to think about it less like losing something you loved, and more like creating the option for every player to enjoy the zone. That should be the Devs' primary goal, not preserving their creative vision at the expense of a minority of players' comfort.

etchedpixels

Adremal wrote: »

It's not broken nor inaccessible.

To you personally perhaps not. However I can asssure you that it's completely unplayable for my dyslexic friend (no screen reader support), and we have to do all sorts of careful stuff with one of our healers (like calling out before we read the hard mode scroll) so he can close his eyes first. As you get older you may well find you'll have a rather different view of whether it's broken too.

So yes it's most definitely not accessible. To be fair - it's a 2014 game and sadly it's only a few years ago the gaming industry treated accessibility as an inconvenient legal liability not a duty of care.

CompM4s

katanagirl1 wrote: »

This zone is so dark I can’t see anything.

I have to constantly look at my map to make sure I am still on the road.

You can change brightness in settings>video. Gope that helps

Adremal

VaranisArano wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

A 'watch your step' sign doesn't translate into 'it's ok to intentionally leave your sidewalks broken and inaccessible.'

It certainly doesn't give carte blanch to install random speed bumps and create new holes because you like the look of it, and 'hey people were warned right?'

Sure the disclaimer is there for what's already in the game, but it doesn't excuse the continued addition of more and more non-optional flashes which are unnecessary.

A game causing a seizure is bad PR whether they're legally covered or not. ZoS needs to consider implementation options and not immediately default to "how about a glaring bright flash to indicate something is happening?"

It's not broken nor inaccessible. ESO is actually very tame when it comes to those effects compared to other video games. Mass Effect and the Witcher series immediately come to mind, plus just about any shooter (muzzle flashes, flashbangs) and any spell-heavy game including say, Skyrim, both the storms and playing as a mage. That's not to mention cases that made it to the headlines such as Pokémon (though I think it was an episode of the anime in that case) and Cyberpunk.
Besides, ESO's effects don't fall into what's been studied thus far (this is just an example, and while the sampling pool is quite narrow and the mechanisms still poorly understood, it's interesting to look at those numbers - and examples, such as Super Mario Word. Lightning strikes in the Deadlands . Besides as I said, any game (or watching TV, eating, even just thinking) can cause a seizure.
And if someone has photosensitivity issues, especially potentially dangerous ones such as PS reflex epilepsys, the "don't play" argument actually holds (or at the very least see a specialist before doing so), kind of like the "don't ride a rollercoaster if you have heart issues" holds, RD065
Not to mention that, again, the mechanisms are still poorly understood, and the causes for both threatening reactions and non-threatening ones such as simple migraines aren't clear, and very likely correlated to other factors such as stress, fatigue, intoxication and so on. The artistic direction of a game (or any media) shouldn't be impacted by speculative concerns, and certainly can't be tailored to an individual's unique condition or preferences, as harsh as that may sound. One user said he/she didn't like how the Sever turned out, for instance. I love it, in no small measure thanks to the lightning strikes - whose frequency is nowhere near what's considered dangerous, not in studies regarding epilepsy, nor in the research of non-lethal incapacitating weapons using light.

Saying the ESO is not as bad as other games is not actually much of an endorsement of ESO at all. Rather it's a condemnation of those other games that are worse.

And saying that ESO is neither broken nor inaccessible does not prevent portions of it from being broken/inaccessible/uncomfortable for certain players who have told you so in this thread. (And who have told ZOS so in past threads.) The discomfort and worse described here is not speculative nor is it unique to a few individuals.


You've written a lot to say that no change is necessary. I'm not convinced, since players are being adversely impacted by ongoing design choices made by the Dev team, and this could be alleviated by accessibility options and better informed designers. This is a problem created out of ignorance more than malice, and I'm sure that when the Devs who designed the Deadlands learn that their design gives players headaches, they'll feel that's contrary to their intent that every player be able to experience the zone and its story.

You may have loved the design of the Deadlands. I encourage you to think about it less like losing something you loved, and more like creating the option for every player to enjoy the zone. That should be the Devs' primary goal, not preserving their creative vision at the expense of a minority of players' comfort.

No, you're putting words in my mouth, especially in regards to the bolded part, and I am not condemning or endorsing anything. I'm merely stating the scientifically recognized fact that there's not enough research available in this field for the devs to make decisions and/or adjustments based on complaints from players who experienced issues that may or may not have been tied to lightning in the Deadlands or whatnot (the latter being more likely if these issues have been reported in previous content). I'm also stating that the subjectivity of both physical and psychological triggers is too subjective for the devs to adapt to it, in any game or setting. Trigger warnings could be used, gamma cap corrections could be used, but taking into account every possible trigger is simply not possible. I firmly believe that the devs, any devs, any art creator should stick to their vision regardless of the impact on the audience. In this specific case, I have already conceded that a clearer (albeit redudant, since it's common knowledge that all video games could cause seizures even in people who have not experienced them before and/or are not epileptic) PS trigger warning could be added to the introduction.
On a personal note, my belief is born not out of callousness. I played several games that had a negative impact on me due to triggers of various nature, triggers that could be broadly grouped in "violence", which is now what, 14+, not even 18+. Same goes for movies and such. Some situations are possible to predicted, and it's up to the consumer to decide whether to consume the media or not (e.g. a veteran picking up a realistic war game). Other cannot be predicted, as physiological ones can affect anyone. This isn't limited to video games, and shouldn't limit a creator's freedom. Basic safeguards and guidelines for TV broadcasts, web and video game designs are already in place based on the limited scientific data available (and jurisdiction), trigger warnings complete that. But I have to reiterate that devs simply do not have the knowledge to implement changes to reduce that impact, aside from not going over thresholds that are already accepted to be dangerous (and as such are being tested in the non-lethal/crowd control weapons field).

VaranisArano

Adremal wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

A 'watch your step' sign doesn't translate into 'it's ok to intentionally leave your sidewalks broken and inaccessible.'

It certainly doesn't give carte blanch to install random speed bumps and create new holes because you like the look of it, and 'hey people were warned right?'

Sure the disclaimer is there for what's already in the game, but it doesn't excuse the continued addition of more and more non-optional flashes which are unnecessary.

A game causing a seizure is bad PR whether they're legally covered or not. ZoS needs to consider implementation options and not immediately default to "how about a glaring bright flash to indicate something is happening?"

It's not broken nor inaccessible. ESO is actually very tame when it comes to those effects compared to other video games. Mass Effect and the Witcher series immediately come to mind, plus just about any shooter (muzzle flashes, flashbangs) and any spell-heavy game including say, Skyrim, both the storms and playing as a mage. That's not to mention cases that made it to the headlines such as Pokémon (though I think it was an episode of the anime in that case) and Cyberpunk.
Besides, ESO's effects don't fall into what's been studied thus far (this is just an example, and while the sampling pool is quite narrow and the mechanisms still poorly understood, it's interesting to look at those numbers - and examples, such as Super Mario Word. Lightning strikes in the Deadlands . Besides as I said, any game (or watching TV, eating, even just thinking) can cause a seizure.
And if someone has photosensitivity issues, especially potentially dangerous ones such as PS reflex epilepsys, the "don't play" argument actually holds (or at the very least see a specialist before doing so), kind of like the "don't ride a rollercoaster if you have heart issues" holds, RD065
Not to mention that, again, the mechanisms are still poorly understood, and the causes for both threatening reactions and non-threatening ones such as simple migraines aren't clear, and very likely correlated to other factors such as stress, fatigue, intoxication and so on. The artistic direction of a game (or any media) shouldn't be impacted by speculative concerns, and certainly can't be tailored to an individual's unique condition or preferences, as harsh as that may sound. One user said he/she didn't like how the Sever turned out, for instance. I love it, in no small measure thanks to the lightning strikes - whose frequency is nowhere near what's considered dangerous, not in studies regarding epilepsy, nor in the research of non-lethal incapacitating weapons using light.

Saying the ESO is not as bad as other games is not actually much of an endorsement of ESO at all. Rather it's a condemnation of those other games that are worse.

And saying that ESO is neither broken nor inaccessible does not prevent portions of it from being broken/inaccessible/uncomfortable for certain players who have told you so in this thread. (And who have told ZOS so in past threads.) The discomfort and worse described here is not speculative nor is it unique to a few individuals.


You've written a lot to say that no change is necessary. I'm not convinced, since players are being adversely impacted by ongoing design choices made by the Dev team, and this could be alleviated by accessibility options and better informed designers. This is a problem created out of ignorance more than malice, and I'm sure that when the Devs who designed the Deadlands learn that their design gives players headaches, they'll feel that's contrary to their intent that every player be able to experience the zone and its story.

You may have loved the design of the Deadlands. I encourage you to think about it less like losing something you loved, and more like creating the option for every player to enjoy the zone. That should be the Devs' primary goal, not preserving their creative vision at the expense of a minority of players' comfort.

No, you're putting words in my mouth, especially in regards to the bolded part, and I am not condemning or endorsing anything. I'm merely stating the scientifically recognized fact that there's not enough research available in this field for the devs to make decisions and/or adjustments based on complaints from players who experienced issues that may or may not have been tied to lightning in the Deadlands or whatnot (the latter being more likely if these issues have been reported in previous content). I'm also stating that the subjectivity of both physical and psychological triggers is too subjective for the devs to adapt to it, in any game or setting. Trigger warnings could be used, gamma cap corrections could be used, but taking into account every possible trigger is simply not possible. I firmly believe that the devs, any devs, any art creator should stick to their vision regardless of the impact on the audience. In this specific case, I have already conceded that a clearer (albeit redudant, since it's common knowledge that all video games could cause seizures even in people who have not experienced them before and/or are not epileptic) PS trigger warning could be added to the introduction.
On a personal note, my belief is born not out of callousness. I played several games that had a negative impact on me due to triggers of various nature, triggers that could be broadly grouped in "violence", which is now what, 14+, not even 18+. Same goes for movies and such. Some situations are possible to predicted, and it's up to the consumer to decide whether to consume the media or not (e.g. a veteran picking up a realistic war game). Other cannot be predicted, as physiological ones can affect anyone. This isn't limited to video games, and shouldn't limit a creator's freedom. Basic safeguards and guidelines for TV broadcasts, web and video game designs are already in place based on the limited scientific data available (and jurisdiction), trigger warnings complete that. But I have to reiterate that devs simply do not have the knowledge to implement changes to reduce that impact, aside from not going over thresholds that are already accepted to be dangerous (and as such are being tested in the non-lethal/crowd control weapons field).

Gee, I can't imagine where I got the idea that you think that no change is necessary.


Do the Devs need scientific studies to respond to the complaints of their playerbase when their players have given them specific and actionable feedback on things like ESO's current lightning effects and flash-to-white transitions such as scrying?

No, they don't. It doesn't take special knowledge for the Devs to listen to their players and change their approach when they know that players are having issues because their players are saying so.

I reiterate that the Devs could sensibly not go over thresholds that they know cause their current players discomfort, and moreover, could refrain from using those effects in the future. Don't need scientific studies for that. Do need to listen to player feedback.

Scrying didn't need flash-to-white transitions and future gameplay additions don't need them either. Weather effects like lightning have been an issue for years, so this should have been something the Devs considered for Deadlands...assuming they ever saw previous complaints on the forums. If they had, perhaps it might have saved them some embarrassment here where their creative vision is making it physically difficult for players to enjoy their new DLC. And besides, Housing Players have been begging for weather controls for years, so ZOS could make everyone happy.

It's not like the Devs have never changed their designs for accessibility either. It took years before ZOS implemented the current color wheel for friendly and enemy AOEs. Before that, players with red-green color blindess really struggled in certain dungeons. Oh no, the Devs changed their creative vision in response to player feedback!

You place a lot of responsibility on the consumer. I have no problems placing a reciprocal responsibility on the Developers: when your playerbase is saying that a non-essential design element is causing discomfort or inaccessibility, you try to mitigate it. And you don't repeat it in the name of creative vision regardless of the known physical negative impact on some of your players.

Fennwitty

You're treating

Adremal wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Adremal wrote: »

Fennwitty wrote: »

A 'watch your step' sign doesn't translate into 'it's ok to intentionally leave your sidewalks broken and inaccessible.'

It certainly doesn't give carte blanch to install random speed bumps and create new holes because you like the look of it, and 'hey people were warned right?'

Sure the disclaimer is there for what's already in the game, but it doesn't excuse the continued addition of more and more non-optional flashes which are unnecessary.

A game causing a seizure is bad PR whether they're legally covered or not. ZoS needs to consider implementation options and not immediately default to "how about a glaring bright flash to indicate something is happening?"

It's not broken nor inaccessible. ESO is actually very tame when it comes to those effects compared to other video games. Mass Effect and the Witcher series immediately come to mind, plus just about any shooter (muzzle flashes, flashbangs) and any spell-heavy game including say, Skyrim, both the storms and playing as a mage. That's not to mention cases that made it to the headlines such as Pokémon (though I think it was an episode of the anime in that case) and Cyberpunk.
Besides, ESO's effects don't fall into what's been studied thus far (this is just an example, and while the sampling pool is quite narrow and the mechanisms still poorly understood, it's interesting to look at those numbers - and examples, such as Super Mario Word. Lightning strikes in the Deadlands . Besides as I said, any game (or watching TV, eating, even just thinking) can cause a seizure.
And if someone has photosensitivity issues, especially potentially dangerous ones such as PS reflex epilepsys, the "don't play" argument actually holds (or at the very least see a specialist before doing so), kind of like the "don't ride a rollercoaster if you have heart issues" holds, RD065
Not to mention that, again, the mechanisms are still poorly understood, and the causes for both threatening reactions and non-threatening ones such as simple migraines aren't clear, and very likely correlated to other factors such as stress, fatigue, intoxication and so on. The artistic direction of a game (or any media) shouldn't be impacted by speculative concerns, and certainly can't be tailored to an individual's unique condition or preferences, as harsh as that may sound. One user said he/she didn't like how the Sever turned out, for instance. I love it, in no small measure thanks to the lightning strikes - whose frequency is nowhere near what's considered dangerous, not in studies regarding epilepsy, nor in the research of non-lethal incapacitating weapons using light.

Saying the ESO is not as bad as other games is not actually much of an endorsement of ESO at all. Rather it's a condemnation of those other games that are worse.

And saying that ESO is neither broken nor inaccessible does not prevent portions of it from being broken/inaccessible/uncomfortable for certain players who have told you so in this thread. (And who have told ZOS so in past threads.) The discomfort and worse described here is not speculative nor is it unique to a few individuals.


You've written a lot to say that no change is necessary. I'm not convinced, since players are being adversely impacted by ongoing design choices made by the Dev team, and this could be alleviated by accessibility options and better informed designers. This is a problem created out of ignorance more than malice, and I'm sure that when the Devs who designed the Deadlands learn that their design gives players headaches, they'll feel that's contrary to their intent that every player be able to experience the zone and its story.

You may have loved the design of the Deadlands. I encourage you to think about it less like losing something you loved, and more like creating the option for every player to enjoy the zone. That should be the Devs' primary goal, not preserving their creative vision at the expense of a minority of players' comfort.

No, you're putting words in my mouth, especially in regards to the bolded part, and I am not condemning or endorsing anything. I'm merely stating the scientifically recognized fact that there's not enough research available in this field for the devs to make decisions and/or adjustments based on complaints from players who experienced issues that may or may not have been tied to lightning in the Deadlands or whatnot (the latter being more likely if these issues have been reported in previous content). I'm also stating that the subjectivity of both physical and psychological triggers is too subjective for the devs to adapt to it, in any game or setting. Trigger warnings could be used, gamma cap corrections could be used, but taking into account every possible trigger is simply not possible. I firmly believe that the devs, any devs, any art creator should stick to their vision regardless of the impact on the audience. In this specific case, I have already conceded that a clearer (albeit redudant, since it's common knowledge that all video games could cause seizures even in people who have not experienced them before and/or are not epileptic) PS trigger warning could be added to the introduction.
On a personal note, my belief is born not out of callousness. I played several games that had a negative impact on me due to triggers of various nature, triggers that could be broadly grouped in "violence", which is now what, 14+, not even 18+. Same goes for movies and such. Some situations are possible to predicted, and it's up to the consumer to decide whether to consume the media or not (e.g. a veteran picking up a realistic war game). Other cannot be predicted, as physiological ones can affect anyone. This isn't limited to video games, and shouldn't limit a creator's freedom. Basic safeguards and guidelines for TV broadcasts, web and video game designs are already in place based on the limited scientific data available (and jurisdiction), trigger warnings complete that. But I have to reiterate that devs simply do not have the knowledge to implement changes to reduce that impact, aside from not going over thresholds that are already accepted to be dangerous (and as such are being tested in the non-lethal/crowd control weapons field).

You're treating this like a piece of artwork.

A little bit sure, but this is a business running a for-profit game with a vested interest in having as many customers as possible.

If the art team took even a moment's thought on a regular basis, "Hey, the flashing is super cool and all, but what about end users who might have problems with flashing lights?" -- You think they'd go all "No this is my art! How dare you change this! I don't care about the customers liking our product, I the art person am making an executive decision on behalf of the company and our parent companies!"

That's ridiculous.

At worst, ZoS is incredibly tone-deaf that they are causing an issue with some of their visual effects.

There's no 100% scientific proof gravity exists as a force either but it doesn't stop us from taking it into consideration.

All it takes is one country somewhere making a law that companies have to consider accessibility and suddenly ZoS is on the defensive and has to scramble. Why bother with that? Making a product accessible is not a thing you can just say "nah I'm an artist" about.

Fennwitty

And to reiterate: Nobody's telling them "Never make bright flashing lights ever!"

People are asking for a button in settings to tone it down (or up) same as individual volume options.

xgoku1

I mean it's pretty clear the designers didn't think of photosensitivity or seizure risk when they designed this part of the zone. It's literally just "lightning is cool".

If you are prone to such effects do not go to Annihilarch's Summit, period.

katanagirl1

CompM4s wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

This zone is so dark I can’t see anything.

I have to constantly look at my map to make sure I am still on the road.

You can change brightness in settings>video. Gope that helps

Brightness already set to max.

Kiyakotari

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi @Dolphinsgal. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We are passing on your experience to the Dev team to see what can be done on the accessibility front.

As @Adremal noted, we do have a photosensitive warning outlined in the Terms of Service. That has been outlined below just as a reference point. But we will take player feedback here to the dev team about the visibility of the warning and how it could be improved.

PHOTOSENSITIVITY WARNING. A very small percentage of individuals may experience epileptic seizures or blackouts when exposed to certain visual images, including without limitation light patterns or flashing lights. Exposure to certain patterns or backgrounds on a computer, television or other screen, or while playing video games, may induce epileptic seizures or blackouts in these individuals. These conditions may induce previously undetected epileptic symptoms, blackouts, or seizures in persons who have no history of prior seizures or epilepsy. If You, anyone in Your family, or anyone in Your household, have an epileptic condition, have had seizures of any kind, or seizure symptoms, consult a doctor prior to using the Services or playing any Game. If You experience any of the following symptoms while playing any Game, immediately discontinue use and consult Your physician before resuming play : dizziness, altered vision, eye or muscle twitches, jerking or shaking of arms or legs, loss of awareness, disorientation, confusion, any involuntary movement, or convulsions.

Thanks all and appreciate the feedback.

It's worth noting that there are other major MMO right now that show their warnings regarding seizures/migraines/flashing lights on log-in every time the player enters the game, and require the player acknowledge the warning before entering the game. Not buried in the legal TOS.

As someone who suffers migraines, and who has them 3-4 times a week even without the stimulation of flashing lights, I'm glad that lights have never been one of my triggers in the past. I hope that they never become one, and I feel serious sympathy for anyone who has been having migraines after the release of Deadlands.

Ippokrates

I am all for adding some kind of visual filters, not only for seizure reason but also because in many situations involving large group of players, like trials or Cyro, game is turning into [snip]show of effects I personally find distractive. For example, removing Power of the Light was great improvement, because now i know which enemies i targeted and which not, without messing with PotL of other templars. Sure, some effect like auras for support (for example Encratis) or skills (like Undaunted balls or Templar spears) should be fully visible, but imho there no reason for keeping full visibility of DD skills.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Katlefiya

RD065 wrote: »

When I saw that lightening at first I thought I was going to have a stroke. There's seems to be a setting for just about everything yet some really important ones aren't there. People want to play games so saying "don't play" doesn't help.

A side note: Game is so dark anyway to help with that especially night time. Thank you.

You know that you can adjust the gamma settings of the game, right?

SammyKhajit

Sammy supports this. A simple but considerate gesture to players who experience migraines, seizures and other light sensitive issues.

vesselwiththepestle

Hey, I don't get seizures, migraine, headaches or anything like that from playing video games. However, I still dislike the bright flashes and the general use of overly bright effects in the game. That's why I turn of bloom. Also reducing the texture quality helps a bit. I have my screen on low-blue-light-filter, which helps a bit, too. Stil in some trials, for example, in the middle of the screen I have white space and just bright light because of all those effects. It would be nice if those effects were toned down. In general setting down gamma correction, turning down brightness of your display etc. isn't a solution, because then many parts of the game will be to dark. The issue isn't brightness overall, but those spikes in brightness from *some* abilities and effects in the game.

I hope those who are suffering from actual health issues will get accessibility options added as a toggle to increase the inclusivity of the game!

Serenez

https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/accessibility/disability-answer-desk?rtc=1&activetab=contact-pivot:primaryr10

For now this may be a good place for people to provide some feedback and ask questions, with respect to accessibility features as the Xbox gaming app is also on the Windows PC. The direct partnership with ZOS and Microsoft will hopefully start to bridge the gap with game developers and customer's needs with respect to these requests.

Providing accessibility appears to be of high importance to Microsoft, so I would expect they would take any feedback that people could provide to help improve their services and work with their partners to help bridge that gap respectively.

Although certain topics are productive in a community debate forum, I personally do not believe this should be one that other players get to debate whether or not a persons disability or medical concerns should or should not be accommodated. In my personal opinion, I would much rather see a communication on the ESO website inviting those who have spoken up on these concerns to submit their requests in private.