Overland Content Feedback Thread

spartaxoxo

Abigail wrote: »

Irony in reading about how upset people are with the ease of overland is that the vast majority of overland players are flying through the content with their hair on fire -- obviously so because so few people stick around for the cut scenes. Also, for those who want a more challenging boss experience, apparently you don't do much overland or you'd know that 9 times out of 10, one or more players will come along and join in the fight, making it anything but challenging no matter the difficulty.

Story bosses are instanced and other players can't interrupt those.

Abigail

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Story bosses are instanced and other players can't interrupt those.

Well, halleluiah! If "overland" content is restricted to class story quests, then have at it. Thank you for the clarification.

BIackHand

@ZOS_Kevin

I did not really read everything. But i can already see that tons of People try to find constructive ideas to make Overland Content harder and worth to play, instead of beeing able to solo public dungeons with one hand on their keyboard and with half their attention to Netflix on the second screen. Even without any Gear Sets and Championpoints enabled.

Everything what follows is my personal opinion and beeing rude is not my intention! I remember the time back in 2k14 like it was yesterday. Overland content was very hard and every Quest was super satisfying. I Enjoyed the Lore and Questing. Like the Questline in Glenumbra, it was Awesome. I enjoyed it a lot. And when i finally beat Angof after 3 hours of Tryhard, it felt so good. Like i was playing Elder Scrolls Skyrim. Just awesome!! After the Storyline of the own Faction, we progressed into Veteran Content, called Cadwells Silver and Gold. That content was even Harder. But it still was fine bec until than you could get some game knowledge and be better at the game in general. Then i believe Tamriel Unlimited came out and all the content got nerfed like hell. Everything became super easy and boring.
I dont know why you did this. Maybe because people with less skill can be able to clear content???? People played Skyrim aswell with its difficulty, wich you cant compare even close to ESO joke difficulty. But people still play other games wich are more difficult. I know there were people crying on the Forums, because Veteran Content was to hard [snip]. You couldn't please everyone anyway. There are always people crying. [snip]

Okay lets continue. I like to complete all the Archievements in the game and i did very well with that until Murkmire DLC. The only thing what really made me mad was Questing. Everything was easy and it felt ''Empty''. Thats the right word. I felt Empty while playing the Questlines. Of course there is still the lore, but thats it. So i decided to stop Overland Content at all. I dont need a good lore while the rest is fart dry, boring and no fun at all. I just decided that i wait until the Content gets harder and worth it to play. The good thing is, when ZOS really decide to make the Overland Content harder, i have all DLC's from Murkmire until now, up to enjoy. That makes me hard when i think about that, but also depressive when i think about that never happens. I think i have said enough.

I dont know wich contructive tips i could give you, except to reset the Overlanmd Difficulty back like it was in 2k14. I just saw this Thread and i was happy to see so many people arguing about that. So i wanted to tell you my opinion too. Incase my english is ***, wich i know it is, excuse me.

Greetings

[edited for baiting]

SilverBride

BIackHand wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin
I did not really read everything. But i can already see that tons of People try to find constructive ideas to make Overland Content harder and worth to play, instead of beeing able to solo public dungeons with one hand on their keyboard and with half their attention to Netflix on the second screen. Even without any Gear Sets and Championpoints enabled.

Just as many are happy with overland just as it is and are against having more difficulty forced on them. Many are also against a separate veteran overland because it is overkill when the main complaint is about the quest story bosses, which are a one time fight per character.

The only options that do not affect anyone other than the player who is asking for more difficulty are debuffs and challenge banners for story quest bosses.

BIackHand wrote: »

...reset the Overlanmd Difficulty back like it was in 2k14...

They changed that because most players didn't do 2/3 of the quests because they were veteran level and players didn't want difficulty in the story. It would be illogical to revert back to something that failed before.

Aardappelboom

While I love reading all the comments, there have been tons of good tips and ideas thrown around. It would really surprise me if we'd see something new coming up after 3k comments. We're at a point where someone says they want a more difficult overland and get immediatly countered by someone who doesn't.

It's safe to say that there's enough people on both sides and the only good implementation will be to find a system that works for both.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin we honestly could use some kind of conclusion, is there any news on this, or any news coming?

SilverBride

Aardappelboom wrote: »

While I love reading all the comments, there have been tons of good tips and ideas thrown around. It would really surprise me if we'd see something new coming up after 3k comments. We're at a point where someone says they want a more difficult overland and get immediatly countered by someone who doesn't.

That is because, for myself at least, I remember how bad it was for me before One Tamriel. I left and didn't come back until they got rid of the veteran levels and forced grouping. I play through every single quest in every zone on all my alts, because I love overland questing that much. It would devastate me if it reverted back to how it was before, so I feel the need to defend against that.

Aardappelboom wrote: »

It's safe to say that there's enough people on both sides and the only good implementation will be to find a system that works for both.

That is why I fully support a debuff and challenge banners for quest story bosses, even though I would never use them myself. That way everyone can have a difficulty they enjoy and no one is hurt by it.

Aardappelboom wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin we honestly could use some kind of conclusion, is there any news on this, or any news coming?

Please.

WordsOfPower

Overland mobs having more health, resistance and damage might make the content slightly harder, but that doesn't mean they'll fight more intelligently or that it'll be any more interesting to have combat with them.

I'm dead against overland being more difficult. It will just take longer to grind and the players that like to do mostly solo content tend to be casual anyway.

What we need and deserve is more endgame content, more PVP content, and game fixes.

And a vomit bag for when the card game arrives.

Sylvermynx

WordsOfPower wrote: »

Overland mobs having more health, resistance and damage might make the content slightly harder, but that doesn't mean they'll fight more intelligently or that it'll be any more interesting to have combat with them.

I'm dead against overland being more difficult. It will just take longer to grind and the players that like to do mostly solo content tend to be casual anyway.

What we need and deserve is more endgame content, more PVP content, and game fixes.

And a vomit bag for when the card game arrives.

Well.... I'm not thrilled with the card game. But your other points are spot on. Now, I'm not personally involved with end game content - I'm old, my reflexes suck, and my satellite connection (the only thing available where I live besides.... dial up.... yeah) means that I'm not about to do group content as that would SO not be fair to others. Not to mention that I burned out on group content years and years ago in WoW and RIFT....

Truthfully, if overland gets made harder, I'll shut up and deal. It might not be my idea of fun, but unlike others, I'll at least give it a try.

I do think that something needs to be done to expand end game for people like you. Mechanics for quest bosses (at the very least) might make things better for some. I'd be out of the running there - it's all I could do to get through Mulaamnir in Elsweyr and Vandacia in Blackwood - my reflexes are crap, my connection ditto (satellite is NOT "real broadband"), and really, at 74, there's only so much combat in this game I'm able to handle....

Sucks to get old, serious. Two decades ago I was tanking end game raids in WoW and RIFT. 20 years.... well, it's a killer.

LordRukia

Challenging bosses is fine especially in delves and story quests I think they should be buffed up a lot more also that would help people missing out of the kill because they die to a cough. But WoW level of scaling on every trash mob is extremely tedious and boring. Alternatively having random one shots ala GW2 is not good either. I've learned this after watching multiple big dev teams fail to make open world engaging , but succeeded in making it frustrating or exhausting and always has backlash. I like how in ESO, I am powerful enough to destroy trash mobs with ease. I am an intelligent gamer, so I know the challenging content is in instances and I don't want to ruin the ease of open world because of my selfishness. Challenge is out there go play it, no need to make open world a slog. I think story is ok to be easy most of the time, its relaxing and sometimes you want to just chill when you get home from work, there needs to be that option after all it is a game. There can definitely be some tweaks, or an OPTION of increased difficulty.

CP5

Look, I understand your fears about ZOS being unable to do much about this without causing collateral damage. Between their continued silence on almost every major subject, as well as their poor handling of AWA, there is a good reason to be skeptical of anything major they try to do. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try to see the game improved. You yourself, Silver, had left the game and only came back because of those major changes, should they just ignore players who now find themselves in the same position you were in years ago? Just write those who are moving away from the game because of this as 'acceptable losses?'

I'm in a trial guild, when I first joined we had raids every day, sometimes several, with dozens of different faces scattered between each one. Now we have 3, and seemingly half the people in each group are in all the groups, and there isn't much movement of players from other content into trials, so this trend isn't likely to change. Those who think the content is fine as is, that's fantastic. Players like myself only benefit from this because the more people who actively play and enjoy the game, the longer the game will last. But as someone who is in the group of players who are discontent with things, it's a long run watching raid groups dissolve as people take breaks and never have a reason to come back. Having something meaningful to engage with between runs, as I have mentioned before many people only log on for our raids and at no other times, would help prevent those losses. But when a group takes a break and those in the group have no reason to log in until they get going again, it is common that they just never come back.

And this isn't just 'well, they should make more vet content.' Many players were drawn to ESO because of the elder scrolls branding, the world of tamriel and all it brings was no small reason why we chose to come here. Making more vet content is expected, just like more zones are made, but being told "you have a lot of content" and "if you want challenge go back to your content" is exactly the same as "go to your corner and be happy there." I want to explore the world, I want to engage in the quest, but whe, the biggest takeaway from the deadlands was "wee, I can jump into a tornado" or when my first reaction to seeing the big bad of the skyrim year long story, who I had no clue was even a threat at the time was to put arrows in their face, beginning a fight I would likely have won, I don't feel anything. No satisfaction from saving the day, no wonder or awe from exploring a distant local when the residents that place is infamous for are nothing more than pest. I used to love to quest, and I did every single quest in Wrothgar before touching the main story just because I couldn't get enough out of exploring every area, but now I race by content because, by design, everything is predictable because it is all designed to be as similar as it can.

And about the how, the misconceptions about what some people seem to think is an 'elitist' player trying to ruin their game. No, old gold and silver content isn't what a majority of us are looking for, mindless padding of health and damage doesn't make things more engaging. Self nerfing through poor gear or a potential debuff system doesn't solve this either as it is exactly the same thing, just on the players side. I mentioned this before, an incapable enemy taking 5s or 5 min to kill doesn't make their fight more engaging. As I pointed out from the 2.1.4 patch notes, ZOS intentionally flattened the differences between enemies, a trend that makes all overland encounters feel the same and acts as the standard for major enemies in stories and around the world to be created around.

Is it an outlandish idea that tanky enemies should be more durable than their mage counterparts? That an npc mender should actually be able to heal enough to warrant attention in the middle of a fight? That enemy archers shouldn't just stand there for an age lining up their shot? I outlined many times in the past how removing some skills and adding other skills that already exist, as well as undoing the 2.1.4 changes would go a long way to making the content more engaging, so I won't repeat myself here, but this isn't a "you should die ten dozen times to collect that item! muhahaha," it's "I should actually feel some sense of agency in combat by making meaningful choices, rather than everything turning out exactly the same way every time."

ZOS has instancing, if you did any of the Summerset gyser quest during the event a few months back you probably saw first-hand why this tech already exist. They, before one tamriel, already had separate rule-sets for instances and would put people in them according to what faction they were in, leveraging that to sort players by gameplay preferences, and having the instances differ like how they do between normal and vet trials/dungeons should be something they could do. Yes, their ability to execute ideas cleanly without causing distress or major issues is something to be justifiably worried about, but it doesn't mean this option isn't there. Something like this wouldn't force changes on those who don't want it, so those who enjoy the game as is wouldn't lose anything.

Lysette

CP5 wrote: »

ZOS has instancing, if you did any of the Summerset gyser quest during the event a few months back you probably saw first-hand why this tech already exist. They, before one tamriel, already had separate rule-sets for instances and would put people in them according to what faction they were in, leveraging that to sort players by gameplay preferences, and having the instances differ like how they do between normal and vet trials/dungeons should be something they could do. Yes, their ability to execute ideas cleanly without causing distress or major issues is something to be justifiably worried about, but it doesn't mean this option isn't there. Something like this wouldn't force changes on those who don't want it, so those who enjoy the game as is wouldn't lose anything.

I actually have to agree to this - instancing seems to be the best option here gameplay-wise and eventually vet dungeons are the guideline for how difficult it should be. But there is the problem with what exactly should be instanced and what should be left alone - I doubt that you want all of overland to be like this. but just certain parts of it - what then again requires effort by the devs to figure out, what content exactly would have to be instanced to make it worthwhile.

It is a bit like the issue I have with quests, which have no content because other players have cleared it out already. Just certain parts of it would have to be instanced, to make these quests worthwhile for me to play. This could as well be helped with partial instancing, that one could play this part solo or in a small group, instead it to be public.

It could well be, that the part I would want to be instanced for solo/small group play and the part you want to be instanced for veteran overland content is quite the same - which would make the effort to figure those parts out and make them into instances worthwhile - and useable for both purposes, one time with normal rules but non-public, and the other with vet overland rules for you to enjoy - basically killing 2 birds with one stone - that the effort required has more than one use and benefits a larger group of people - as well normal questers, who would like to experience the story where all enemies, they are supposed to encounter, are still alive + for you the desired higher difficulty as well - it would be a worthwhile effort like this and could be controlled by altering the rule-set of that instance for the desired purpose - which could be a toggle in settings.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

You yourself, Silver, had left the game and only came back because of those major changes, should they just ignore players who now find themselves in the same position you were in years ago? Just write those who are moving away from the game because of this as 'acceptable losses?'

The game was literally unplayable for me and many others who wanted to quest and enjoy the story. The forced veteran overland zones were frustrating because of their difficulty, then when you got through those, which not many even bothered with, all that was left was Craglorn.

Craglorn was forced grouping for every single thing. It was impossible to quest because no one was. It was like Alkir is today with nothing but big Zerg groups. It was literally unplayable for those who wanted to quest and enjoy the story.

No one is in that same boat today. Everyone has the ability to quest and enjoy the story now. Despite my opinion that overland is exactly what it should be I still advocate for debuffs and challenge banners for quest story bosses. But I will never agree to overland being reverted back to the failed state it once was.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

You yourself, Silver, had left the game and only came back because of those major changes, should they just ignore players who now find themselves in the same position you were in years ago? Just write those who are moving away from the game because of this as 'acceptable losses?'

The game was literally unplayable for me and many others who wanted to quest and enjoy the story. The forced veteran overland zones were frustrating because of their difficulty, then when you got through those, which not many even bothered with, all that was left was Craglorn.

Craglorn was forced grouping for every single thing. It was impossible to quest because no one was. It was like Alkir is today with nothing but big Zerg groups. It was literally unplayable for those who wanted to quest and enjoy the story.

No one is in that same boat today. Everyone has the ability to quest and enjoy the story now. Despite my opinion that overland is exactly what it should be I still advocate for debuffs and challenge banners for quest story bosses. But I will never agree to overland being reverted back to the failed state it once was.

Forced group content in overland wasn't good. Needing 4 people just to open a door was tedious and having enemy packs scaled around expecting 4 players at once fighting them didn't go over well. That is not what is being asked for.

As for "no one being in this boat today." Well, using some of the suggestions provided in threads like this, why wouldn't people "just get higher quality gear?" since apparently gear quality so heavily influences difficulty, if it is suggested for us to power down then why not use the same thing to power up? Or, "if you want [easy overland content] why don't you go back to [the tutorial islands]?" same concept as telling people to go back to their dungeons and trials, but neither of those are acceptable responses to people's concerns in the past before one tamriel.

And did you skip the part where I said they have the tech to make this optional, so those who enjoy things as is wouldn't be impacted, so they wouldn't be reverting it back to what it was before? Or you can avoid responding to that point, but the thing is the older overland zones weren't 'unplayable', just 'not your fit,' isn't that exactly the same situation as it is now? Just because you prefer it as it is now doesn't mean you didn't benefit from massive changes before, and that others could benefit from more changes now.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

As for "no one being in this boat today." Well, using some of the suggestions provided in threads like this, why wouldn't people "just get higher quality gear?" since apparently gear quality so heavily influences difficulty, if it is suggested for us to power down then why not use the same thing to power up? Or, "if you want [easy overland content] why don't you go back to [the tutorial islands]?" same concept as telling people to go back to their dungeons and trials, but neither of those are acceptable responses to people's concerns in the past before one tamriel.

Many of us who are happy with overland as it's been for 6 years now and do not want a change have offered suggestions such as debuffs and challenge banners in a good faith effort to make overland more enjoyable for more players. These are the ONLY solutions that won't disrupt the changes that were made with One Tamriel, and won't hurt other players in the process.

CP5 wrote: »

And did you skip the part where I said they have the tech to make this optional, so those who enjoy things as is wouldn't be impacted, so they wouldn't be reverting it back to what it was before? Or you can avoid responding to that point, but the thing is the older overland zones weren't 'unplayable', just 'not your fit,' isn't that exactly the same situation as it is now? Just because you prefer it as it is now doesn't mean you didn't benefit from massive changes before, and that others could benefit from more changes now.

The game was unplayable for anyone who wanted to quest and enjoy the story. No one could solo quest in Craglorn which meant that a lot of players were no longer able to quest. Zerging around Craglorn all day wasn't our idea of playing and the game was losing players in droves because of it.

Creating a separate veteran overland would use a lot of resources and data for something that can only be done once per character.

Cireous

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

This thread has been up for 5 months now and is getting close to 3000 posts. May we please get an answer if any of the suggestions are something that we may see in the future or not so we can settle this debate?

Thank you.

Not until this reaches 100 pages?

I'm sensing some "Change the Overland Content" fatigue, here, and that's not helpful to the cause

SeaWoodStage

@CPS Thank you for being polite

I'm bad at expressing myself btw but what you said here:

Some players are anxious of running with other players, others don't notice how they're doing as an individual while in a group. In these situations it is important for them to be able to improve on their own, doing 4-man dungeons solo at that level is a high thing to ask, and shoving them all into vateshran or maelstrom, while helpful in the long term, may also be too much. By being able to up the difficulty in an area they're already comfortable in, without the sense that they're being judged or without group members influencing the results, they could find it easier to improve.

Is something I absolutely agree with. My issue was with the original idea that the overland should be made more difficult, because I think it should stay as it is. And my point about dungeons was that once you reach a certain confidence level, attempting solo dungeons on normal is one of the things you can do to try to improve your skills without the pressure of other players watching you.

WiseSky

Make a Monster Helm

Cursed Oblivion Helm
Removes 666 Weapon and Spell Damage, Removes 6666 Penetration, Removes 3666 Armor, Removes 2666 Maximum Stamina, Removes 2666 Maximum Health... ETC

2 items: When you hit an enemy an Random Oblivion Overpowered Foe will be summoned attacking only you for X time

LashanW

SilverBride wrote: »

No one is in that same boat today. Everyone has the ability to quest and enjoy the story now. Despite my opinion that overland is exactly what it should be I still advocate for debuffs and challenge banners for quest story bosses. But I will never agree to overland being reverted back to the failed state it once was.

Everyone can technically complete overland quests yes, but it's not enjoyable for everyone. That's the whole point of this thread. Otherwise you could say everyone has the ability to get Godslayer, just farm some gold and buy a carry run. Technically it can be done, but not enjoyable at all.

But I appreciate that you are fine with challenge banners and debuffs. And yes, forced grouping would be horrible.

SeaWoodStage wrote: »

And my point about dungeons was that once you reach a certain confidence level, attempting solo dungeons on normal is one of the things you can do to try to improve your skills without the pressure of other players watching you.

I actually have soloed all the dungeons in the game now (though had to call my friend for a couple of dungeons because of unavoidable group mechanics). I did it to experience the dungeon stories on own my pace, and it was simply amazing. Best questing experience in ESO I've ever had. Things that NPCs told me made sense, bosses weren't pushovers that died in seconds while barely scratching me. Some of them were very threatening actually, sometimes I really had to change how I approached the fight. Using all the tools at my disposal was worth it. Immersion was awesome because of that. Some dungeons took me hours to complete as I was talking to all NPCs, reading all books and searching everywhere trying to interpret the surroundings. It made the stories so much more impactful and memorable.

I just want to experience all the stories in this game like that. Without it being a visual novel.

WiseSky wrote: »

Make a Monster Helm

Cursed Oblivion Helm
Removes 666 Weapon and Spell Damage, Removes 6666 Penetration, Removes 3666 Armor, Removes 2666 Maximum Stamina, Removes 2666 Maximum Health... ETC

2 items: When you hit an enemy an Random Oblivion Overpowered Foe will be summoned attacking only you for X time

Thank you for posting this several times in this thread. Very helpful to the discussion.

vsrs_au

I still think a solution that keeps everyone happy is to use those parts of the zones where there's no much occurring otherwise, by adding some challenges to these localised areas, in the form of more numerous opponents with more health/stamina/magicka/effects/etc. The rest of these zones can remain unchanged, and those who wish to accept the challenge can enter these areas. This shouldn't involve any major changes to the game.

LashanW

vsrs_au wrote: »

I still think a solution that keeps everyone happy is to use those parts of the zones where there's no much occurring otherwise, by adding some challenges to these localised areas, in the form of more numerous opponents with more health/stamina/magicka/effects/etc. The rest of these zones can remain unchanged, and those who wish to accept the challenge can enter these areas. This shouldn't involve any major changes to the game.

If those work like current "challenging events" (like world bosses and harrowstorms etc.) on overland, then that is not what I want. Those are isolated things that are not directly related the quests in the zone.

What I want is questing experience to improve in terms of gameplay (in an optional way ofc).

spartaxoxo

At this point nothing new can even be said except for by ZOS. We were told we'd be getting a response eventually back in January. How much longer do we need to wait?

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Beyond that, nothing to report now, but we will be working toward having a more detailed answer regarding overland content in the future.

Edit: Is it just you guys are busy with the launch of High Isle or something? Can we please get a response?

colossalvoids

LashanW wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

No one is in that same boat today. Everyone has the ability to quest and enjoy the story now. Despite my opinion that overland is exactly what it should be I still advocate for debuffs and challenge banners for quest story bosses. But I will never agree to overland being reverted back to the failed state it once was.

Everyone can technically complete overland quests yes, but it's not enjoyable for everyone. That's the whole point of this thread. Otherwise you could say everyone has the ability to get Godslayer, just farm some gold and buy a carry run. Technically it can be done, but not enjoyable at all.

But I appreciate that you are fine with challenge banners and debuffs. And yes, forced grouping would be horrible.

SeaWoodStage wrote: »

And my point about dungeons was that once you reach a certain confidence level, attempting solo dungeons on normal is one of the things you can do to try to improve your skills without the pressure of other players watching you.

I actually have soloed all the dungeons in the game now (though had to call my friend for a couple of dungeons because of unavoidable group mechanics). I did it to experience the dungeon stories on own my pace, and it was simply amazing. Best questing experience in ESO I've ever had. Things that NPCs told me made sense, bosses weren't pushovers that died in seconds while barely scratching me. Some of them were very threatening actually, sometimes I really had to change how I approached the fight. Using all the tools at my disposal was worth it. Immersion was awesome because of that. Some dungeons took me hours to complete as I was talking to all NPCs, reading all books and searching everywhere trying to interpret the surroundings. It made the stories so much more impactful and memorable.

I just want to experience all the stories in this game like that. Without it being a visual novel.

So much this. Dungeons are basically how I want my questing to be and the only content in years that I was able to really enjoy. It's a shame that some well crafted overland stories just falling flat due to lackluster gameplay. If difficultly/gameplay is not connected to the narrative it's a fail in my eyes. One of the reasons I've proposed banners for at the very least main quest encounters to make it worth.

SilverBride

LashanW wrote: »

Everyone can technically complete overland quests yes, but it's not enjoyable for everyone. That's the whole point of this thread.

Everyone can PvP and run veteran dungeons and Trials and craft and design houses and sell on traders and Zerg around Alkir all day but it's not all enjoyable for everyone. No activity is going to please everyone. I don't do half of these because I don't enjoy them but I don't expect the game to customize them all to my individual preferences.

LashanW wrote: »

Some dungeons took me hours to complete as I was talking to all NPCs, reading all books and searching everywhere trying to interpret the surroundings. It made the stories so much more impactful and memorable.

I just want to experience all the stories in this game like that. Without it being a visual novel.

But the story is a visual novel that we are characters in. And we all have the option to read every book we find along the way and talk to every NPC we encounter and explore our surroundings just as you do now in dungeons.

Elsonso

WordsOfPower wrote: »

Overland mobs having more health, resistance and damage might make the content slightly harder, but that doesn't mean they'll fight more intelligently or that it'll be any more interesting to have combat with them.

The typical game design solution seems to be to increase the "bullet sponge quotient" when making things harder.

I am against "veteran zones" simply because this does not address the larger problem, and actually creates a few new ones. The larger problem is that normal zones do not have enough breadth of difficulty, and making veteran zones out of existing zones does nothing to fix that. All the veteran zone does is split the players into two tiers. Additionally, the overland is very centered around DPS, and that should be addressed, and veteran zones will likely be even more DPS oriented.

I would start by leaving the overland mobs, quest mobs, and delves largely as they are. These represent the lower end of the scale and are necessary for the game. The only tuning necessary is to adjust their bullet sponge quotient to match the lower end DPS. Veteran players are welcome to do this content, and help other players, but this content is scaled for the masses, not the veterans.

Instead, I would make world bosses harder through an increase in the bullet sponge quotient. This is just to limit soloing to a higher tier. I would make these easily scalable so that as the player high end solo DPS creeps up, so does the bullet sponge quotient. My goal here is not to eliminate the solo attempts, but to raise the bar and maybe weed out the glass cannons. These would still be DPS oriented, but the need to have others around would be enhanced.

After that, I would look at the public dungeons and increase their difficulty. Here, my focus would be to increase the need for other players and build the need for players not in the DPS role so that we can get some tank and healer training in overland content. To do that, rather than making the bosses bullet sponges, I would bring in mechanics ideas from trials, increase the number of bosses that are located in the same place to make them harder to control, and come up with ways to make tanks and healers more important during these boss fights. Since it is not possible to control the number of players to 4, or establish their role mix, these boss encountered would likely be harder than some 4-player dungeons and could require more than 4 players to complete. Tech that could adjust based on the players would be cool, but I can think of ways this ends badly.

As a side effect of this, I would remove the currently existing quests, including dailies, that deal with world bosses and public dungeons, and re-think how those are done. These could possibly move under Undaunted so that they are positioned better as things that are group activities, even though they don't strictly require a group.

It is somewhat entertaining to think and talk about this, but I know deep down that it is pointless. I'd love it if someone at ZOS cared enough to chime in.

CP5

Silver, the only solution? Instancing is literally used to do this exact thing everywhere else in game, and it already curates who zones into which instance by keeping friends and guildies together. Zones are already filtered this way, what then is 'lost' if people you have no interest interacting with have an instance you aren't even in altered?

SilverBride wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

Everyone can technically complete overland quests yes, but it's not enjoyable for everyone. That's the whole point of this thread.

Everyone can PvP and run veteran dungeons and Trials and craft and design houses and sell on traders and Zerg around Alkir all day but it's not all enjoyable for everyone. No activity is going to please everyone. I don't do half of these because I don't enjoy them but I don't expect the game to customize them all to my individual preferences.

LashanW wrote: »

Some dungeons took me hours to complete as I was talking to all NPCs, reading all books and searching everywhere trying to interpret the surroundings. It made the stories so much more impactful and memorable.

I just want to experience all the stories in this game like that. Without it being a visual novel.

But the story is a visual novel that we are characters in. And we all have the option to read every book we find along the way and talk to every NPC we encounter and explore our surroundings just as you do now in dungeons.

So, here is an example. Take the more recent Doom games, insanely intense first person shooter, filled with heavy metal and more demon slaying than you can find anywhere else, and you see something in it. Difficulty settings, something the Doom community knows the purpose of.

Does someone play on the easier difficulties? Fantastic, they get an insane power trip through the unique frame of that game, being able to explore every aspect of it without gameplay difficulty gating what they can do.

Does someone play on the harder difficulties? Fantastic, they get to be challenged like the doom slayer is in game lore wise and need to push themselves to fill the shoes of that legendary characters mantel.

Both groups are able to genuinely enjoy the game, because videogames are able to cater to both groups at once, something that books and movies can't do as easily. To completely reframe their content to present itself to more people.

You, and those you enjoy the game with, are like that first group, you know what you enjoy and I understand not wanting it compromised. But 'story' isn't a demanding factor that the game puts forward no resistance.

In Dragon Age Origins, during an intense and climatic siege, the player is tasked with scaling a massive tower to light a fire, calling in reinforcements. Once you get to the top you need to fight an ogre for the first time, an intense fight in a small space, and only after that harrowing encounter you light the fire, and the guy who was supposed to come decides to flee instead. This causes everyone who was waiting on their aid to die, and leave the character in the game with a desire for revenge, and it leaves this same drive with the player, to get revenge against the character who squandered all the effort they just put in.

Later in the game you return to a city being attacked by the same enemies, and this being right before the end of the game you're much stronger, but even so the ogre's plaguing the cities streets are much weaker. They aren't there to stop you, more of a glorified "do you want to continue, because once you do you can't turn back" kind of barrier. But it gives players a strong sense of progress and the momentum to dive into the final leg of the game without having to face a tedious barrier right before.

Game difficulty was used in both areas in such a way to interact with the player, and made it easier for the player to invest themselves in the story. Many other games also have fights you can't win, no matter how good the outcome is set in stone. Those do the same thing that I mentioned when the guy lead his army away from the battle, it gets players invested in the characters struggles because, through gameplay, they're shared.

I don't feel anything for saving the day in eso, because the story they're setting up is compromised for me because I know full well that everything is a facade. Listening to npcs go on about how such and such villain is so important, and we need all the mcguffin muffins to save the day, and I'm sitting there thinking, just give me his home address and I'll end this now. Discontent isn't what I should feel when talking to npcs who should be endearing to me.

Back in December my motherboard went on my main system, and while I was waiting on repairs I by chance came across this indie game. It was purely focused on exploration and interacting with npcs, with some light puzzle solving sprinkled in. At the end of my 6.5h with the game I felt more of an emotional connection to every npc I came across, their names, personalities, who they are. They mattered, and over the past few years playing eso so few characters stand out enough unless ZOS is intentionally going out of their way to make them the crowd favorite, and no small part of that is because they all seem either incapable or lazy. In that indie game I engaged with the systems the game provided to establish connections to these characters, and here those systems are odds and instead serve to drive me away.

So yes, I get your concerns, and until ZOS says something to help ease your worries and to come down one way or another to answer mine we can keep going around in circles forever. But don't mistake your preferred way to enjoy the game as the only one, you aren't the whole community, and neither am I, but they have the tech already to address this issue and leave both of us with what we want, but we're both stuck until they get around to actually showing care for the community at large and communicating.

SilverBride

What other games do has nothing to do with ESO. Overland is exactly what it needs to be. The problem is that some players find overland boring or not to their taste, which is a personal opinion and not a fact. That's why debuffs and challenge banners make sense because they address the real issue.

LogicOfLiam

I've played on and off since the beginning, so i was there for the Vet zones and the pain of how difficult they were, however back then I was a total noob not even understanding what sets were, I'd die to quest bosses and think it were amazing, I'd have to wait for other hero's to join me and work together to beat them down; gave me a real sense of community. I understand that type of gameplay isn't for everyone, but it is for a fair few of us.

I struggle to play any overland content now; I haven't started zone's like Blackwood, Fargrave, Western Skyrim, the one thats under Western Skyrim, Southern Elswyre, Murkmire and a few more due to how easy they are now. I as a player don't want to walk over to a group of enemies and melt them in less than a second. I want to engage in every fight I do. I don't want to find a world ending boss at the end of a story and have him defeated in 3 - 5 seconds. I understand and appriciate there is a huge player base out there who don't really know what they're doing and the overland is still difficult for them, or you have the older gamers, or people with slower reflexes, or motor disabilities, but Vet Dungeons and Vet Trials or simply going PVP aren't enough to keep the player base who invest a lot of time into the game.

Gimping oneself is out of the question, I want to see my spectacular skills I have, i want to see the abilities proc from the sets I worked hard for. These challenge banners and debuffs people put forward wouldn't work either as we all know you'll get griefers who camp some areas and whilst you're fighting will burn whatever down for you. Or you might just get a random person come in who's not using them who needs to complete a boss you've been fighting and they'll melt it, not out of grief tactics, just cause they needed to do it too.

My proposed solution

I'm no programmer, I won't pretend I know how games work. But my idea is create a Memento which takes you to a group only instance, where everything is on level with Vet content. You could activate this in Delves, Public Dungeons, Towns where certain quests are, etc... Once you leave the area you resume back to the normal world, thus not dividing the player base. No additional rewards, that's not what we want, we just want to play the game without melting everything we see.

I believe creating an instance could work because of things like the Mages guild questline, there are many areas you go to which other players can too but it's instanced to you. Also back in the day (I don't know if it is still like this as I haven't gone back with friends) if I completed a town that changed the state of it and my friend hadn't then they couldn't see me as we're thrown into temporary instances, one where everything is before the quest for them and one where everything is after for me.

Again I am no programmer, I know nothing of the sort, but we've got systems like that already, I understand it would create more memory or smth idek, I don't get that side of things, but imo this is the best possibility we could have.

SilverBride

LogicOfLiam wrote: »

Gimping oneself is out of the question, I want to see my spectacular skills I have, i want to see the abilities proc from the sets I worked hard for.

Why do players work hard for their sets and develop their skills and abilities in the first place? So they can handle more challenging content such as veteran dungeons, trials and arenas.

Why would anyone expect the base game to challenge a fully decked out player? And why should ZoS create a separate veteran overland for such an expectation?

That is a lot of work for something that can only be done once, especially now when data storage and performance are a priority.

vsrs_au

SilverBride wrote: »

LogicOfLiam wrote: »

Gimping oneself is out of the question, I want to see my spectacular skills I have, i want to see the abilities proc from the sets I worked hard for.

Why do players work hard for their sets and develop their skills and abilities in the first place? So they can handle more challenging content such as veteran dungeons, trials and arenas.

Why would anyone expect the base game to challenge a fully decked out player? And why should ZoS create a separate veteran overland for such an expectation?

That is a lot of work for something that can only be done once, especially now when data storage and performance are a priority.

I know you're responding to the thread in general, not me specifically, but that's not what I proposed earlier in this thread.

I was suggesting they create more difficult areas within existing zones, which players could enter if they chose to. This should require no instancing, only the addition of some hostile NPCs greater in numbers and/or abilities than in the surrounding areas. It would be relatively easy to implement, in my opinion.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

What other games do has nothing to do with ESO. Overland is exactly what it needs to be. The problem is that some players find overland boring or not to their taste, which is a personal opinion and not a fact. That's why debuffs and challenge banners make sense because they address the real issue.

You fail to acknowledge how instancing allows options in literally every other piece of content in the game, nor address how ESO can't be improved based on what other games have done. Past MMO's have been released as hard core full loot pvp, but changed to meet the desires of the much larger, more casual crowd. Should ESO not have done a similar thing, to address a somewhat similar issue, with the intent of improving?

As for your other response to LogicOfLian, it doesn't take an experienced player more skills or more powerful gear to overcome the obstacles of overland without effort. It comes down to learning the basics of the game itself. The largest piece of the game, the part unique to the franchise, the world itself, made trivial to some by simply committing themselves to learn it, why would ZOS want to sit back and let that large of a piece of content become worthless to many players?

ZOS putting forward effort to make sure more players can enjoy content is why every other piece of content in the game where difficulty is a factor has an option. Why shouldn't overland? "Overland is for the story," though as I explained, video games are interactive, and gameplay informs the story. Different players take that differently, as with my Doom example, but when the gameplay is trivial the story is lost for many and the sense of thrill from exploration is gone. And, last I checked, I have 18 characters, 17 of which have barely done any overland, would sure be nice to take them through some of that content and enjoy it, or my oldest character through the newest content, or maybe even level new characters by questing rather than mindlessly farming mobs. Perhaps that is a good reason.

And besides, if we say we can't do this because of hardware limitations, why are they adding a new zone this coming quarter? If hardware is an issue that is on them to fix if they want the game to go on, and I think we can both agree that is what we want.