Overland Content Feedback Thread

spartaxoxo

Riptide wrote: »

There are also limitless rewards to provide that do not break the game mechanically or edge out the crown store. Skins, mounts, houses, furniture and all manner of cosmetic options have been leveraged to the bleeding edge for revenue, to provide some of these for difficult gameplay is a reinvestment in the game. A long overdue investment.

You know at first I was extremely opposed to this because it would break the achievement game or ruin immersion which was supposed to be the whole point of such a system. I didn't want watered down stories with repeatable quests and quests being unrepeatable meant a lot of accounts would potentially have their achievement scores completely ruined because they did the quests on normal. Thus a lot of new players wouldn't be able to get all the achievements and a lot of hard fought and won high achievements older achievement accounts would be destroyed.

That didn't seem fair to me just because someone wanted a difficulty that should be optional.

But if you can earn the achievement and everything that comes with it for your main on your alt, then it's still a bit less immersive but not as bad as it would be turning into a daily quest. And nobody is permanently screwed out of achievements. So I guess how they ultimately implement account wide achievements determines my support of extra rewards.

Riptide

I just want Tamriel to be legitimately dangerous. Where I have to be on the balls of my feet. Where it is remotely possible to raise my heart rate in a massive open world of content that already exists.

Where I don’t have to go naked to do so.

Where I have to bring every ounce of my CP and gear to bear to be able live comfortably as a duo, or to manage to survive alone. Where hiding and stealth are truly meaningful. Where consumables matter under the open sky.

I don’t mind if the rewards for such a lifestyle choice is relatively trivial, so long as it is something, and so I can recognize my other comrades and we may put our backs together out in the wild against a dangerous world.

I am far from alone in this bent. We should not have to live alone the pits of vMA or vVH or be saddled with leading trials to find this challenge and all the herding cats it entails. Not when there is literally a world of content right there that we too may relish.

No one serious about it have I ever really seen asking others to sacrifice things to provide such a gameplay option, and we have accepted our lot in life that the wide world is doomed to feel anemic at best to us.

For years.

And I’m so very tired of nothing being done about it to the point I literally chuckle at myself for making yet another post. It seems so entirely reasonable and without malice, elitism or any of the other stuff that seems to be what folks are afraid of.

Just a desire for a genuine challenge, one that is not artificial.

It is downright inexplicable to me that nothing has been done to address it in so long, particularly after companions.

Ever since One Tamriel and factions combined hit it was pretty apparent whoever runs the shop was hyoerfocused on keeping the world as populated as possible, to avoid empty spaces at all costs - and I reckon this has roadblocked vet overland for years.

But folks like me generally plow through the open world questlines super fast and simply never return to it in its current state. The harder the world, the slower folks generally take the voiceover content, and that is measurable. Why? Catharsis. Trivial content? Clickety click click through.

Of course there are exceptions to that and no one need prove they are that, but it holds true for most of the folks I know.

Anyway, I never have got the sense anyone in the shop is looking at that kind of metrics. Whether because of lack of latitude, time, or vision I don’t know - because there have been less than 100 words from Zenimax about it in nine years.

And so we debate one another.

YellowFridge

I have been playing ESO off and on for a few years. I only have a single character around CP 200 so I'm by no means a vet or extremely knowledgeable in the game. However, every time I've quit the game has been for the same reason - the overland/solo portions of the game are mind-numbingly easy. I love the world, lore and questing (the story aspect), but the gameplay makes it all incredibly dull.

The last time I played was when Elsweyr launched. I remember playing through the story, getting to the last boss and just facerolling (as I did the whole story). I was so disappointed after that, I logged out and didn't touch the game again for a few years (until a week ago). The lack of difficulty makes it even harder to care about the story - it just wasn't very engaging.

When I started playing again recently, I had a friend join me this time. I just let him lead and I didn't reveal any negative opinions I had of the game. Even he said the game was too easy after only 2 days of playing. We were even able to 2-man some world bosses, completely faceroll public dungeons and 2-manned 4player group dungeons. We've never really come close to dying throughout 99.9% of the time we've played. My friend (playing a templar tank) was able to tank the last boss of Direfrost Keep indefinitely. I just sat back and we both laughed at how he could endlessly self heal and his Magicka would never fully deplete. The boss, and the adds, were hitting him like wet extra-fluffy toilet paper.

The lack of overland/delve/public dungeon difficulty (and IMO even "normal" instanced dungeons) needs to be addressed. It has been a common complaint from the playerbase for years now and ZOS has done nothing about it. Not even on these forums mind you. I have also seen this complaint on Reddit and the Steam community forums.

It seems that a complete global difficulty retuning is out of the question, since about 50% of this forum react with extreme virulence whenever somebody dares mention an overland difficulty increase. Perhaps thats just a reflection of today's "ME ME ME ME ME" mentality where everyone needs to get a participation trophy and the idea of hard work to achieve something is going down the toilet.

So why not something that you are able to opt-in to? A toggle that would make the world more dangerous and therefore more engaging. This is not about making mobs damage sponges, but perhaps mechanically more complex and/or with more abilities along with hitting harder. I and many others feel something along these lines would be a great addition to the game. This should also come with greater rewards, whether its better loot in general or maybe a "hard mode" currency of some sort. You could also tie achievements in to this. I believe there are many possibilities.

So both sides can get what they want. The people who "just want to enjoy the story", 1-2 shot everything and not be affected by increased difficulty can stay in story/easy mode instances of the world. Both sides win, no?

EDIT: Here's how long it takes a mob to kill a naked player, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLYwxXFqEZk

summ0004

That video sums up just how boring the combat has become in the open world against normal mobs. When or if ZOS sort out the problem I return to the game, but until then I will not subscribe or purchase any chapters as there is nothing for me to enjoy in the zone parts of the game at the moment.

SilverBride

I don't find overland combat the least bit boring.

Sylvermynx

Eh, I don't either. I'm lucky to live over 3 mobs.... I'm old, my reflexes are crap, and combat in this game is - not friendly with 750 ms ping. Love this game, but harder overland will mean I will have to leave.

I guess some will think that's just fine. I'll be very very sad. I don't believe the devs think a toggle is "doable" for whatever reasons. I'd like to see that at least, or perhaps a vet overland for those who are much younger/much better/have "real" broadband - but they don't seem to think that's doable either.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't find overland combat the least bit boring.

That's fine 'you' don't. But 'some' people do. You said in the past "fun is subjective" and you being fine with it does nothing to invalidate others experiences.

spartaxoxo

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't find overland combat the least bit boring.

That's fine 'you' don't. But 'some' people do. You said in the past "fun is subjective" and you being fine with it does nothing to invalidate others experiences.

I mean, she also didn't say that it did. Or even act like it. She said she personally doesn't find it boring. I think it's good to remember that some people in this game enjoy it as it is, and that just because we find it boring doesn't mean everyone does. I personally find it boring sometimes and relaxing on others. It depends on my mood really.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't find overland combat the least bit boring.

That's fine 'you' don't. But 'some' people do. You said in the past "fun is subjective" and you being fine with it does nothing to invalidate others experiences.

I wasn't invalidating others' opinions. I was just reminding that there are others with the opposite opinion.

Also, the video of a player standing and letting a bear hit him that someone else posted really isn't representative of overland combat, because that's not how anyone plays.

And just to reinforce, I am very supportive of a toggle or debuffs and challenge banners and even a new adventure zone even though I probably would never use them myself.

FeedbackOnly

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Scale mobs to cp 1200

That would force the entire player base to deal with them instead of making it an option. Not everyone can handle veteran content, especially new or casual players, but also some people with disabilities or bad internet as well. Therefore, I think that it should not be forced. Beyond that, it's just not good for business. Most likely a lot of people would just leave, as they already like the game the way it is.

Mobs scale to cp 300. Yet here we are in this thread

FeedbackOnly

Overland is easy because self healing is a joke in this game.

Unite weapon damage and spell damage from healing power

spartaxoxo

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Overland is easy because self healing is a joke in this game.

Unite weapon damage and spell damage from healing power

Even if you stand there and do nothing it can take a while to die. It's really got nothing to do with that. I barely heal in Overland and on boss fights only heal if my health gets low and purposefully stand in stupid just to see their attacks.

Sombren

and Mehrunes Dagon would have been such a cool fight if their attacks actually hurt.

spartaxoxo

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Thanks for tagging me, SilverBride.

Several of us have been keeping tabs on and reading this forum post over the last several weeks since starting it up. We will be going through this thread to build out a report specifically on this topic and sharing that with the team at large for their consideration in the future. We think this thread will be helpful to get to the root of player concern on various sides of this conversation of overland difficulty. So thank you all of the time put into having lively discourse around the topic.

Beyond that, nothing to report now, but we will be working toward having a more detailed answer regarding overland content in the future.

@ZOS_Kevin

I was curious if you have a follow up on this yet?

Sylvermynx

spartaxoxo wrote: »

[snip]

I hope so. I think it's time. I just want whatever to be optional....

[edited to remove quote]

Riptide

Yeah, the bit I’m getting at is that for years the same pattern has been running.

Folks ask for optional harder mode

ZOS stays silent

Silence is filled by opposition saying it would ruin their game to make it harder

Folks point out the word optional

Opposition looks so very very hard to find a way to make it a personal insult

ZOS releases reskins of aesthetic items at a higher price and remains silent

Folks who asked for optional harder mode shrug and give up on the forums

Those steps have played out here so many times that I have seen, and I generally only drop in for 2-3 week stretches.

It would all be genuinely funny if it weren’t such a genuine waste, in multiple ways

spartaxoxo

Riptide wrote: »

Yeah, the bit I’m getting at is that for years the same pattern has been running.

Folks ask for optional harder mode

ZOS stays silent

Silence is filled by opposition saying it would ruin their game to make it harder

Folks point out the word optional

Opposition looks so very very hard to find a way to make it a personal insult

ZOS releases reskins of aesthetic items at a higher price and remains silent

Folks who asked for optional harder mode shrug and give up on the forums

Those steps have played out here so many times that I have seen, and I generally only drop in for 2-3 week stretches.

It would all be genuinely funny if it weren’t such a genuine waste, in multiple ways

Considering that there has been basically no one who has opposed an optional increase in this thread, and ZOS has said that they actually give us an update on this thread this time, I think you're extremely off base. -self snip-

Sylvermynx

Well, there have been a few people (not naming here, don't want to upset the mods) who have just said "increase the difficulty overall" (with the obvious corollary "devil take the hindmost, if you can't stand the heat get out") it's a bit of a stretch to say "basically no one".

But yes, mostly people have been on the side of "optional".

Leftover_Pizza

I'm totally fine with the difficulty. It allows me to play the way I want, without struggling much and need help from other players. Perhaps I'd have a different opinion 35 years ago, when my reflexes were at their prime. But those days are gone long as is the wish for tougher content.

Sylvermynx

Leftover_Pizza wrote: »

I'm totally fine with the difficulty. It allows me to play the way I want, without struggling much and need help from other players. Perhaps I'd have a different opinion 35 years ago, when my reflexes were at their prime. But those days are gone long as is the wish for tougher content.

Yeah. I hear that. Even 20 years ago I'd have managed better. But.... that ship has definitely sailed....

Riptide

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Considering that there has been basically no one who has opposed an optional increase in this thread, and ZOS has said that they actually give us an update on this thread this time, I think you're extremely off base. I wonder how much of this opposition is actual, and how much of it is people just wanting a different solution than you.

Hehehe, extremely, huh

Anyway, when folks ignore that pretty well everything proposed has been of an optional nature and make arguments against increasing difficulty across the board - that…

Ah, well, never mind. Why get into the weeds about fallacies and whatnot. I am sure you are right, I’m extremely off base and this will all be substantively addressed.

I’ll check back and see about a month before the expansion comes out.

spartaxoxo

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Well, there have been a few people (not naming here, don't want to upset the mods) who have just said "increase the difficulty overall" (with the obvious corollary "devil take the hindmost, if you can't stand the heat get out") it's a bit of a stretch to say "basically no one".

But yes, mostly people have been on the side of "optional".

Eh. I think the people who want to force it to be harder, or force it to remain exactly the same, have been mostly quiet. If I had to guess, I would say it was probably like 90% of the posts have been supportive of something optional. The disagreement largely seems to mostly revolve around how to increase the difficulty, rather than whether or not players should be forced into any type of gameplay.

Sylvermynx

@Riptide - you need to realize that nothing about this thread is going to show up in this year or probably next year. The production schedule is such that 2022 is already set in stone, and most of 2023 is already solid as well.

IF anything changes so that you are happy, you're looking at 2024 or 2025.

Riptide

So as a reminder of last page or so in case it was lost in the mix, I was an alpha tester here. I spent a career as a developer and managing developers in Fortune 500 companies and in gaming. I mean I’ve got a vaugue idea of the development process and of the challenges

Anyway, 2024 and 2025, while both the sky that was pulled from and the tone make me chuckle, I do agree with the likely timeline.

Which is why I will stop back before the next expansion to see if it has at least been added to the list in a non ambiguous way.

I certainly won’t be supporting the game financially until it is. That was the put a cover on it behind the garage and buy and drive something else bit of the analogy.

I only harp on this because the game is important to me, and because I would in fact invest in it again if it was substantively addressed.

By ZOS.

One last thing I’ll say - while their neglect of this issue has indeed lost them my business as it is, anyone, anyone who has worked retention knows that former adopters are the lowest hanging fruit there ever is. It is three times as easy to snag a former adopter as convert a new user.

If anyone with snap comes along and wades through this, thats the angle to come at it to the budget folks.

Sylvermynx

*shrug* Good luck with that. ZOS doesn't post anything substantive.

spartaxoxo

Riptide wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Considering that there has been basically no one who has opposed an optional increase in this thread, and ZOS has said that they actually give us an update on this thread this time, I think you're extremely off base. I wonder how much of this opposition is actual, and how much of it is people just wanting a different solution than you.

Hehehe, extremely, huh

Anyway, when folks ignore that pretty well everything proposed has been of an optional nature and make arguments against increasing difficulty across the board - that…

Ah, well, never mind. Why get into the weeds about fallacies and whatnot. I am sure you are right, I’m extremely off base and this will all be substantively addressed.

I’ll check back and see about a month before the expansion comes out.

No. Not all the suggestions have been optional. Just a little while ago there was a suggestion that mobs scale automatically on your cp or something like that, which would be a forced suggestion.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, I don't either. I'm lucky to live over 3 mobs.... I'm old, my reflexes are crap, and combat in this game is - not friendly with 750 ms ping. Love this game, but harder overland will mean I will have to leave.

I guess some will think that's just fine. I'll be very very sad. I don't believe the devs think a toggle is "doable" for whatever reasons. I'd like to see that at least, or perhaps a vet overland for those who are much younger/much better/have "real" broadband - but they don't seem to think that's doable either.

There seems to be many statements like these being ignored.

There has been very few people in this thread that suggested nothing be done. It's like 90% on favor of an optional vet overland, and like most of the posts that haven't been in favor of it being optional have been in favor of a forced experience. There are a couple of people who don't want anything done at all, sure. But a lot of these comments keep being made after someone says something like "I support this as long as it's not forced. I don't want it to be harder because reasons," which as far as I can tell is also what prompted this car analogy.

I cannot understand how someone saying they support a vet overland as long as it's not forced could be objectionable to someone who doesn't want it to be forced, tbh. This thread has been extremely overwhelmingly in favor of an optional vet overland and finally got a green post committing to get a new response. It's been a rocky road but it's been a net positive towards maybe someday getting something done.

YellowFridge

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't find overland combat the least bit boring.

That's fine 'you' don't. But 'some' people do. You said in the past "fun is subjective" and you being fine with it does nothing to invalidate others experiences.

I wasn't invalidating others' opinions. I was just reminding that there are others with the opposite opinion.

Also, the video of a player standing and letting a bear hit him that someone else posted really isn't representative of overland combat, because that's not how anyone plays.

snipped

Right... because it was representative of how easy and non-threatening mobs are. Not representative of someone playing the game normally. A player can stand and do nothing, but still take nearly two minutes to die - while being naked. Whereas if the player were to attack the mob, the encounter would be over in 5 seconds or less. This example permeates 99.9% of the overland content (delves and public dungeons included) and some find it extremely boring and unengaging. Just because others find overland "fine how it is" isn't a valid argument against an increased (optional) difficulty.

It seems most are in agreement that this should be some sort of toggle. I think something along the lines of a "story", normal and veteran overland difficulty would be great. This would allow players to solely experience the story without having to worry about anything else. While at the same time allowing other players to have a challenge AND experience the story. Though as I mentioned, increasing the reward for playing on the harder difficulty/difficulties should come as well.

To an extent I even believe dungeons should see a re-tuning, maybe with the same difficulties applied. A common complaint I had when I first started playing was people rushing through RNDs. It gave me no time to explore or take in the story and I'd sometimes lag behind the group. Seeing something along the lines of a story mode for dungeons would be great for newer players.

Parasaurolophus

Well, since this topic has come alive again, I would like to share a recent interview with Matt Firor, in which he said that ZoS plans to continue making walking world bosses. Okay, but that's not enough. From the same interview, it's clear that this is just an idea from IC, and not some kind of vet.overland attempt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqU7KjfGNsw&t=1s&ab_channel=Desastre
Such an interview is good and only about 2.500 views. And then ZoS wonders why the community thinks communication is bad.

tonyblack

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Well, since this topic has come alive again, I would like to share a recent interview with Matt Firor, in which he said that ZoS plans to continue making walking world bosses. Okay, but that's not enough. From the same interview, it's clear that this is just an idea from IC, and not some kind of vet.overland attempt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqU7KjfGNsw&t=1s&ab_channel=Desastre
Such an interview is good and only about 2.500 views. And then ZoS wonders why the community thinks communication is bad.

Yep, watched it as well. The sad part out of it is that he said they wouldn’t add new arenas this year, which leaves us with just 4 dungeons and 1 trial. It’s hard to look forward to new DLCs, when they offer so little for veteran players. Majority of the content would be once again super easy quests you can breeze through in one or two evenings with nothing interesting or engaging to spice things up.
Also, wandering bosses, dragons or harrowstorms are not what i would call a “challenging content”. It’s designed for large group of players with mixed level and experience. They usually end up swarmed with people and drop dead as fast as delve boss. Soloing 10 million bosses in weird (read inconvenient for most) hours is boring slog and have nothing to do with what was asked for in this thread. It’s guild event, nothing more.

Parasaurolophus

tonyblack wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Well, since this topic has come alive again, I would like to share a recent interview with Matt Firor, in which he said that ZoS plans to continue making walking world bosses. Okay, but that's not enough. From the same interview, it's clear that this is just an idea from IC, and not some kind of vet.overland attempt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqU7KjfGNsw&t=1s&ab_channel=Desastre
Such an interview is good and only about 2.500 views. And then ZoS wonders why the community thinks communication is bad.

Yep, watched it as well. The sad part out of it is that he said they wouldn’t add new arenas this year, which leaves us with just 4 dungeons and 1 trial. It’s hard to look forward to new DLCs, when they offer so little for veteran players. Majority of the content would be once again super easy quests you can breeze through in one or two evenings with nothing interesting or engaging to spice things up.
Also, wandering bosses, dragons or harrowstorms are not what i would call a “challenging content”. It’s designed for large group of players with mixed level and experience. They usually end up swarmed with people and drop dead as fast as delve boss. Soloing 10 million bosses in weird (read inconvenient for most) hours is boring slog and have nothing to do with what was asked for in this thread. It’s guild event, nothing more.

Shouldn't there be a new arena in 2022? He didn't talk about it. There was no new arena in the Deadlands.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings all,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.