Overland Content Feedback Thread

SilverBride

BroughBreaux wrote: »

Anyway, I just wanted to add that all ZOS would have to do is add a difficulty slider in the settings that buffs and/or debuffs your character depending on which point it's set to and this problem would be solved, for the most part.

Difficulty options would be as follows:

Novice > Apprentice > Adept > Expert > Master > Legendary

I like the concept, but feel there is too much micromanaging.

I like that those who want a challenge can choose from different levels of difficulty, although I would simplify that to 2 levels.

We don't need different levels of normal overland. Overland is very doable for new players and low levels just as it is and does not need an easier difficulty.

I would suggest that the slider look something like this:

Normal > Veteran > Master.

ShalidorsHeir

Again: debuffs are wasted development time and wont be used by anyone since they do not result in what was asked for. Optional vet instances is what we need and there it doesnt matter if player or NPC is scaled up and down.

One question: would you ever go into a dungeon, for monster helm, motif or whatever, with an option activated that is going to make you completely useless compared to the other guys around? Is that what you call character progression? I guess they'd vote kick you ... for good reason.
You like to have an epic fight while some other guy comes in and oneshot the boss you fought for minutes? To receive the same reward? Or the other way around: a group of 10 players. 9 of them activate challange mode. 1 guy kill it in 3 secs. 9 receive better reward cuz they had the banner activated... even better you dont need to be in a group - cast a light attack on some opponent to register yourself for loot. I dont think that you guys are aware of the problems these ideas would cause... and again: for nothing. Thats literally a template for exploits if not cast into different instances. Then we can leave it cause ZOS will just waste time with that. It does not do what we originally wanted to see, it offers alot of exploits and once these are fixed nobody will use it anyways.

We need a flag to separate instances when it comes to the difficulty. In your character menu there should be the same normal/vet buttons as in the group menu. You set one of 2 possible difficulty modi and the next time you port to a zone you will land in an instance of the selected difficulty. Together with other players that set the same level as you did. And in the end, ALL OF US, will end up in both versions of the same zone, one day here because even a competie players wants to chill some times, and one day there cuz even player who once were new will progress to a point were like to see more of challange even if its just once a week. We already have instances depending on the population, we already have difficultys modes, we already have the zones. Economically least effort: reuse what is already there + 2 different config files and a minimum of coding to add these flag to zones. And then ZOS can observe it for the duration of a patch or 2 and see whether it is worth to investigate or implement further in overland and difficulty topics.

SilverBride

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Again: debuffs are wasted development time and wont be used by anyone since they do not result in what was asked for. Optional vet instances is what we need and there it doesnt matter if player or NPC is scaled up and down.

Debuffs do result in what is asked for which has been stated as wanting more difficulty and not being able to one shot overland mobs. A debuff would provide this.

And many fully support difficulty sliders and debuffs, and would use them if they were implemented.

ShalidorsHeir

You missed the rest of what i wrote. The difficulty is not provided when you debuff youself to a point where you dont have any imapct anymore since the majority around is doing the same job (also for you) as always. It contradicts character progression if you simply reduce your own impact while fighting a world boss with others for example (which wont use it). You could simply stay there and do a light already now if you simply want to have less impact. The challange is not given. Period. Not going to mention the exploits again.

ShalidorsHeir

Also, you can already debuff youself - guess why nobody is doing it. I did this for one month for research regarding this thread, i even did it in craglorn which is considered "group" content. It simply feels wrong and i dont enjoy at all. Mates of my guilds feel the same and could not be arsed to even try it out.

SilverBride

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Also, you can already debuff youself - guess why nobody is doing it. I did this for one month for research regarding this thread, i even did it in craglorn which is considered "group" content. It simply feels wrong and i dont enjoy at all. Mates of my guilds feel the same and could not be arsed to even try it out.

Wearing white gear and disabling CP etc. will lower a character's damage and survivability, but not to the same degree as a true debuff would. A true debuff could make the player take more elemental damage for example, or have the damage sustain longer, like a damage over time skill. They could do a lot more with a true debuff to make the challenge more interesting to the player.

ShalidorsHeir

No they dont. It is not about the debuff itself as i already explained 100 times before and you still refuse to understand. It is not a challange if not everyone participating in the same battle fights equally. Overland is not for single players, it is made for a certain population. What lysette called an annoying interference for instance will stay like that. With optional instances where it is the same fgor everyone this could be welcome random encounter for a remarkable fight. However, im not here to convince you. You simply put phrases of mine out of context which is disrespectful already in my opinion and i really hope you feel well spamming the same stuff over and over again in here to distract potential readers from the information shared in here. Would just be nice if you try to understand it before you answer. Btw i weared nothing in my tests other than white weapons. 0 armor mitigation, minimum sustain and basically no damage as well. It is just an illusion you try to make me believe if i didnt know already . I mean more damage taken would already result in me getting oneshot by light attacks from usual mobs which you can not avoid every time in the way ESO works. This alone tells me that you did not do you own research but you claim to know everything it seems. Challange is at least good in craglorn that way but contradicts the baseline of RPG gameplay - character progression. it simply feels wrong and is not enjoyable.

spartaxoxo

LOTRO implemented debuff sliders and people are able to share the same server just fine and have fun. They actually pay money to use it.


Maybe you wouldn't use it, but it's already a concept that has proven successful for other game and there's no reason to think nobody would like it here. It is a popular method of adding difficulty in games, not the most popular but if a separate instance and debuffs were pizza...separate instance would be pepperoni and debuffs would be Hawaiian. There's no arguing one isn't more popular than the other, but there's also no arguing that this type of pizza isn't popular and successful in it's own right. And that lots of people do like it.

The slider would likely only work in Overland, so there's no worry about farming monster helms. And other people on the map of varying strength is already a thing.

This is not a single player game. Someone stronger than you being on the map is something that all solutions will have to contend with. The one and only solution to that is private instances, which the most important story beats are already privately instanced anyway.

SilverBride

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

It is not a challange if not everyone participating in the same battle fights equally.

Players are not participating in the same battle fights equally now.

Some are level 1 and some are level 50. Some are well geared and some are not. Some are experienced and some are new to ESO. And they are all fighting in the same world, sometimes side by side.

A level 50 fighting next to a debuffed player would be no different than a level 50 fighting next to a low level or a new to ESO player, as it is now.

tonyblack

BroughBreaux wrote: »

B'Vehk 87 pages of replies, that's a lot.

Anyway, I just wanted to add that all ZOS would have to do is add a difficulty slider in the settings that buffs and/or debuffs your character depending on which point it's set to and this problem would be solved, for the most part.

Difficulty options would be as follows:

Novice > Apprentice > Adept > Expert > Master > Legendary

These options would attach a Battle Spirit-like buff and debuff to your character that affects very general values and acts as a sort-of "post process" for the internal equations for how the game calculates things like damage done, taken, healing done, taken, etc. This buff would only apply if you're in an overland or delve instance of the game, and would toggle off when you enter group instanced content like Dungeons, Arenas, Trials, and PvP.

the following percentage values are based around the current damage and healing values in the overworld

Novice:
Damage Taken: 80%
Damage Done: 120%
Healing Taken: 120%

Apprentice:
Damage Taken: 100%
Damage Done: 100%
Healing Taken: 100%

Adept:
Damage Taken: 150%
Damage Done: 80%
Healing Taken: 80%

Expert:
Damage Taken: 200%
Damage Done: 60%
Healing Taken: 60%

Master:
Damage Taken: 250%
Damage Done: 50%
Healing Taken: 50%

Legendary:
Damage Taken: 300%
Damage Done: 30%
Healing Taken: 30%

I think this sort of system, that is completely optional and defaults to apprentice, would be unintrusive and the perfect solution to make everyone happy, and would not be difficult to implement at all, as it does not have to edit any worldspaces, any enemies, any instancing, anything at all, other than your specific character.

Personally, I would love to play on Legendary, to get a truly terrifying world that I have to prepare myself for, and I have to use things like block and roll dodge to succeed. That would be very fun to play in my opinion.

But if someone doesn't want to play on legendary, they don't have to and aren't obligated to, they can play on whichever difficulty they want to, and enjoy the game the way they want to.

This is all about player choice, and no amount of self-nerfs I inflict on myself can even come close to that legendary difficulty I described and still remain fun, as I'd have to just run in naked with no weapons, and that's not how I want to play.

Everything in that suggestion is already achievable in game. You can already self nerf to extremes of struggling against basic enemies in delves, customizing it to the point of your liking and saving it in armory for repeated use.

Just a heads up on what you currently can do in game to debuff yourself:

— remove combat focused CP.

— reset attributes to 0.

— remove all passives (class, weapon skills, armor, guild, etc.).

— craft lvl 1 white gear or unequip everything but weapon (lvl 1).

Those 4 combined would significantly reduce all your damage, healing and survivability on a max level character (160 CP) and it can be done in 5 seconds with armory. I tried it and it’s indeed add quite a bit of challenge even to the base game delves. If even that is not enough you can also:

— become stage 4 vampire to minimize your sustain even further and set your hp regeneration to 0 so you would need to use healing abilities more often. Additional fire damage as a bonus.

— use ravage health potions to put heavy dot, ensuring you’d need to be extra careful and use healing more frequently (and they have several levels with different intensity).

All these steps combined would make questing way more difficult, probably even more so than vet instances could.

Better question would be why advocating for something that is already available in game? What stopping you from using it now?

spartaxoxo

tonyblack wrote: »

Better question would be why advocating for something that is already available in game? What stopping you from using it now?

What he's suggesting is stronger than just taking off your gear and cp, and is not in the game.

Moreover, taking off your gear sacrifices your progression entirely. Debuffs don't.

If you have gear that gives you 30k hp and you lose half of it, that would leave you with 15k. If you have gear that gives you 20k hp and you lose half of it, that is 10k. The gear that increased your hp still made a difference, just less than if you weren't debuffed.

ShalidorsHeir

1. We are talking about the higher end of difficulty. Lv 10 to CP 160 is much more difference than CP 160 to CP 1600 in terms of what you character can do by then.
2. we are not fighting side by side and not in the same instance. competetive players are not playing there at all. I dont go into the latest vet dungeon with lv 30 guy when i try to get Hard mode. You are simply wrong since you dont have the experience on what competive players actually want. Dont pretend to do so.
3. They fight equally according to their general progression.
4. @spartaxoxo it might work for instances but without instances it does won't work in ESO. And i am not talking about private instances at all. In fact, im pointing to the exact opposite. Again: people in ESO are not even trying to debuff themselves right now even if they can. If you do not understand why they do not simply do it - stop arguing about this please. It is fine to not understand it as i can not really understand on how you feel fine in current overland. There is nothing wrong about having different opinions on that. The debuff options we have right now are not just 5 - they are basically endless in terms of sclaing. Nobody uses it.

spartaxoxo

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

@spartaxoxo it might work for instances but without instances it does won't work in ESO. And i am not talking about private instances at all. In fact, im pointing to the exact opposite.

I didn't say you were. I stated that what you did complain about is only solvable with private instances. It already works in another game with debuffed players and not debuffed players playing alongside of each other because it's functionally no different from a gameplay standpoint than two people being of unequal build. Which is a weakness of coopertative multiplayer gaming period, not just debuffs.

There is one and only one solution that does not have players of different strengths fighting against the same enemies sometimes. And that is private instances.

ShalidorsHeir

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

@spartaxoxo it might work for instances but without instances it does won't work in ESO. And i am not talking about private instances at all. In fact, im pointing to the exact opposite.

I didn't say you were. I stated that what you did complain about is only solvable with private instances. It already works in another game with debuffed players and not debuffed players playing alongside of each other because it's functionally no different from a gameplay standpoint than two people being of unequal build. Which is a weakness of coopertative multiplayer gaming period, not just debuffs.

There is one and only one solution that does not have players of different strengths fighting against the same enemies sometimes. And that is private instances.

No i dont, i said 2 different instance types. You will be in that instance with other players that chose the same type. Please have a look at my comment again since i edited it afterwards a bit.
Anyways thats completely different from private instances... like in dungeons - you say normal youll port to normal; you set vet, youll get to vet. always along with ALL other players that set the difficulty modes for their own character.
Other th
AGAIN: read my comments about the possible exploits of buffs/debuffs in the same overland - THAT IS MUCH MORE EFFORT FOR ZOS AT ALL TO TAKE CARE OF EVERYTHING DEBUFFING WOULD MEAN!

spartaxoxo

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

@spartaxoxo it might work for instances but without instances it does won't work in ESO. And i am not talking about private instances at all. In fact, im pointing to the exact opposite.

I didn't say you were. I stated that what you did complain about is only solvable with private instances. It already works in another game with debuffed players and not debuffed players playing alongside of each other because it's functionally no different from a gameplay standpoint than two people being of unequal build. Which is a weakness of coopertative multiplayer gaming period, not just debuffs.

There is one and only one solution that does not have players of different strengths fighting against the same enemies sometimes. And that is private instances.

No i dont, i said 2 different instance types. You will be in that instance with other players that chose the same type. Please have a look at my comment again since i edited it afterwards a bit.
Anyways thats completely different from private instances... like in dungeons - you say normal youll port to normal; you set vet, youll get to vet. always along with ALL other players that set the difficulty modes for their own character.
AGAIN: read my comments about the possible exploits of buffs/debuffs in the same overland - THAT IS MUCH MORE EFFORT FOR ZOS AT ALL TO TAKE CARE OF EVERYTHING DEBUFFING WOULD MEAN!

I don't think you understood my comment.

I am not saying you are suggesting private instances. I, me, myself brought up private instances because it is the only solution to the issue that you did lay out.

You said that high level players don't fight alongside regular players currently. That is completely incorrect. This is overland we are talking about, not VKA. All players in Overland are mixed together and do not have separate instance based on level.

It is already the case that I fight in a story area next to players that I greatly surpass in power. It is also sometimes the case that I run into people doing world bosses that significantly surpass me in power. This is how every MMO works.

It is not a unique problem caused by debuffs. It is the reality of multiplayer gaming.

Even if they made a separate vet mode, you will have people with 35k dps playing in the overland alongside someone with 100k dps.

There is no difference between that and a debuffed player playing near one that is not debuffed.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back-and-forth in addition to some flaming comments from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive.

• Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.

Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

ShalidorsHeir

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

@spartaxoxo it might work for instances but without instances it does won't work in ESO. And i am not talking about private instances at all. In fact, im pointing to the exact opposite.

I didn't say you were. I stated that what you did complain about is only solvable with private instances. It already works in another game with debuffed players and not debuffed players playing alongside of each other because it's functionally no different from a gameplay standpoint than two people being of unequal build. Which is a weakness of coopertative multiplayer gaming period, not just debuffs.

There is one and only one solution that does not have players of different strengths fighting against the same enemies sometimes. And that is private instances.

No i dont, i said 2 different instance types. You will be in that instance with other players that chose the same type. Please have a look at my comment again since i edited it afterwards a bit.
Anyways thats completely different from private instances... like in dungeons - you say normal youll port to normal; you set vet, youll get to vet. always along with ALL other players that set the difficulty modes for their own character.
AGAIN: read my comments about the possible exploits of buffs/debuffs in the same overland - THAT IS MUCH MORE EFFORT FOR ZOS AT ALL TO TAKE CARE OF EVERYTHING DEBUFFING WOULD MEAN!

I don't think you understood my comment.

I am not saying you are suggesting private instances. I, me, myself brought up private instances because it is the only solution to the issue that you did lay out.

You said that high level players don't fight alongside regular players currently. That is completely incorrect. This is overland we are talking about, not VKA. All players in Overland are mixed together and do not have separate instance based on level.

It is already the case that I fight in a story area next to players that I greatly surpass in power. It is also sometimes the case that I run into people doing world bosses that significantly surpass me in power. This is how every MMO works.

It is not a unique problem caused by debuffs. It is the reality of multiplayer gaming.

Even if they made a separate vet mode, you will have people with 35k dps playing in the overland alongside someone with 100k dps.

There is no difference between that and a debuffed player playing near one that is not debuffed.

Player like me are not there at all - in overland. its solveable by how i said - not how YOU lay it out. Debuffing does still contradict character progress and allows the exploits i mentioned. That is my point, i hope finally you understand it. Because im pretty sure i understood yours already weeks ago. And last but not least: There is a difference, otherwise we would debuff ourself already. because the debuff system we have right now is better than any opinion in this thread so far.

spartaxoxo

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

@spartaxoxo it might work for instances but without instances it does won't work in ESO. And i am not talking about private instances at all. In fact, im pointing to the exact opposite.

I didn't say you were. I stated that what you did complain about is only solvable with private instances. It already works in another game with debuffed players and not debuffed players playing alongside of each other because it's functionally no different from a gameplay standpoint than two people being of unequal build. Which is a weakness of coopertative multiplayer gaming period, not just debuffs.

There is one and only one solution that does not have players of different strengths fighting against the same enemies sometimes. And that is private instances.

No i dont, i said 2 different instance types. You will be in that instance with other players that chose the same type. Please have a look at my comment again since i edited it afterwards a bit.
Anyways thats completely different from private instances... like in dungeons - you say normal youll port to normal; you set vet, youll get to vet. always along with ALL other players that set the difficulty modes for their own character.
AGAIN: read my comments about the possible exploits of buffs/debuffs in the same overland - THAT IS MUCH MORE EFFORT FOR ZOS AT ALL TO TAKE CARE OF EVERYTHING DEBUFFING WOULD MEAN!

I don't think you understood my comment.

I am not saying you are suggesting private instances. I, me, myself brought up private instances because it is the only solution to the issue that you did lay out.

You said that high level players don't fight alongside regular players currently. That is completely incorrect. This is overland we are talking about, not VKA. All players in Overland are mixed together and do not have separate instance based on level.

It is already the case that I fight in a story area next to players that I greatly surpass in power. It is also sometimes the case that I run into people doing world bosses that significantly surpass me in power. This is how every MMO works.

It is not a unique problem caused by debuffs. It is the reality of multiplayer gaming.

Even if they made a separate vet mode, you will have people with 35k dps playing in the overland alongside someone with 100k dps.

There is no difference between that and a debuffed player playing near one that is not debuffed.

Player like me are not there at all - in overland. its solveable by how i said - not how YOU lay it out. Debuffing does still contradict character progress and allows the exploits i mentioned. That is my point, i hope finally you understand it. Because im pretty sure i understood yours already weeks ago. And last but not least: There is a difference, otherwise we would debuff ourself already. because the debuff system we have right now is better than any opinion in this thread so far.

You aren’t there but others are. I am out there and also a vet player. I have met plenty of others too. Debuffing to the degree being recommended is not possible in this game and has been implemented to solve exactly this issue in other games. Your solution is not the only solution used in an mmo to success.

It did not remove character progression because gear still mattered. It did not cause a ton of issues with people playing multiplayer because people already are used to playing multiplayer. Running into someone stronger than you is a normal part of multiplayer.

ETA

Also I am NOT fine with current Overland difficult. I have many detailed posts about why.

ShalidorsHeir

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

@spartaxoxo it might work for instances but without instances it does won't work in ESO. And i am not talking about private instances at all. In fact, im pointing to the exact opposite.

I didn't say you were. I stated that what you did complain about is only solvable with private instances. It already works in another game with debuffed players and not debuffed players playing alongside of each other because it's functionally no different from a gameplay standpoint than two people being of unequal build. Which is a weakness of coopertative multiplayer gaming period, not just debuffs.

There is one and only one solution that does not have players of different strengths fighting against the same enemies sometimes. And that is private instances.

No i dont, i said 2 different instance types. You will be in that instance with other players that chose the same type. Please have a look at my comment again since i edited it afterwards a bit.
Anyways thats completely different from private instances... like in dungeons - you say normal youll port to normal; you set vet, youll get to vet. always along with ALL other players that set the difficulty modes for their own character.
AGAIN: read my comments about the possible exploits of buffs/debuffs in the same overland - THAT IS MUCH MORE EFFORT FOR ZOS AT ALL TO TAKE CARE OF EVERYTHING DEBUFFING WOULD MEAN!

I don't think you understood my comment.

I am not saying you are suggesting private instances. I, me, myself brought up private instances because it is the only solution to the issue that you did lay out.

You said that high level players don't fight alongside regular players currently. That is completely incorrect. This is overland we are talking about, not VKA. All players in Overland are mixed together and do not have separate instance based on level.

It is already the case that I fight in a story area next to players that I greatly surpass in power. It is also sometimes the case that I run into people doing world bosses that significantly surpass me in power. This is how every MMO works.

It is not a unique problem caused by debuffs. It is the reality of multiplayer gaming.

Even if they made a separate vet mode, you will have people with 35k dps playing in the overland alongside someone with 100k dps.

There is no difference between that and a debuffed player playing near one that is not debuffed.

Player like me are not there at all - in overland. its solveable by how i said - not how YOU lay it out. Debuffing does still contradict character progress and allows the exploits i mentioned. That is my point, i hope finally you understand it. Because im pretty sure i understood yours already weeks ago. And last but not least: There is a difference, otherwise we would debuff ourself already. because the debuff system we have right now is better than any opinion in this thread so far.

You aren’t there but others are. I am out there and also a vet player. I have met plenty of others too. Debuffing to the degree being recommended is not possible in this game and has been implemented to solve exactly this issue. Your solution is not the only solution used in an mmo to success.

It did not remove character progression because gear still mattered. It did not cause a ton of issues with people playing multiplayer because people already are used to playing multiplayer. Running into someone stronger than you is a normal part of multiplayer.

not saying it is a bad idea - but in ESO it simply wont work and people dont want it that way. If they did they would debuff themselves and claim that the debuff is not strong enough, but nobody is arguing about that in here because they dont want to it. my argument is still valid as far as i understand your point. It does not feel right to debuff yourself. We want more challange and somewhat more remarkable - i can easily outtake 20 targets in 3 secs. Now i debuff myself to have more immersion but it doesn help since the guy next to me does in 3 secs before i started buffing up. I dont know how that is so hard to understand. Now if the mobs would be simply stronger for both of us (or x amount of players, amybe at a worldboss) this would not happen. So it does not satisfy my needs at all or 95% of my friends and guild members who are not playing overland for the same reason. Ofc you meet some of them - it would be more beneficial for ESO and ZOS to adress this issue for a wider audience tho.

spartaxoxo

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

@spartaxoxo it might work for instances but without instances it does won't work in ESO. And i am not talking about private instances at all. In fact, im pointing to the exact opposite.

I didn't say you were. I stated that what you did complain about is only solvable with private instances. It already works in another game with debuffed players and not debuffed players playing alongside of each other because it's functionally no different from a gameplay standpoint than two people being of unequal build. Which is a weakness of coopertative multiplayer gaming period, not just debuffs.

There is one and only one solution that does not have players of different strengths fighting against the same enemies sometimes. And that is private instances.

No i dont, i said 2 different instance types. You will be in that instance with other players that chose the same type. Please have a look at my comment again since i edited it afterwards a bit.
Anyways thats completely different from private instances... like in dungeons - you say normal youll port to normal; you set vet, youll get to vet. always along with ALL other players that set the difficulty modes for their own character.
AGAIN: read my comments about the possible exploits of buffs/debuffs in the same overland - THAT IS MUCH MORE EFFORT FOR ZOS AT ALL TO TAKE CARE OF EVERYTHING DEBUFFING WOULD MEAN!

I don't think you understood my comment.

I am not saying you are suggesting private instances. I, me, myself brought up private instances because it is the only solution to the issue that you did lay out.

You said that high level players don't fight alongside regular players currently. That is completely incorrect. This is overland we are talking about, not VKA. All players in Overland are mixed together and do not have separate instance based on level.

It is already the case that I fight in a story area next to players that I greatly surpass in power. It is also sometimes the case that I run into people doing world bosses that significantly surpass me in power. This is how every MMO works.

It is not a unique problem caused by debuffs. It is the reality of multiplayer gaming.

Even if they made a separate vet mode, you will have people with 35k dps playing in the overland alongside someone with 100k dps.

There is no difference between that and a debuffed player playing near one that is not debuffed.

Player like me are not there at all - in overland. its solveable by how i said - not how YOU lay it out. Debuffing does still contradict character progress and allows the exploits i mentioned. That is my point, i hope finally you understand it. Because im pretty sure i understood yours already weeks ago. And last but not least: There is a difference, otherwise we would debuff ourself already. because the debuff system we have right now is better than any opinion in this thread so far.

You aren’t there but others are. I am out there and also a vet player. I have met plenty of others too. Debuffing to the degree being recommended is not possible in this game and has been implemented to solve exactly this issue. Your solution is not the only solution used in an mmo to success.

It did not remove character progression because gear still mattered. It did not cause a ton of issues with people playing multiplayer because people already are used to playing multiplayer. Running into someone stronger than you is a normal part of multiplayer.

not saying it is a bad idea - but in ESO it simply wont work and people dont want it that way. If they did they would debuff themselves and claim that the debuff is not strong enough, but nobody is arguing about that in here because they dont want to it. my argument is still valid as far as i understand your point. It does not feel right to debuff yourself. We want more challange and somewhat more remarkable - i can easily outtake 20 targets in 3 secs. Now i debuff myself to have more immersion but it doesn help since the guy next to me does in 3 secs before i started buffing up. I dont know how that is so hard to understand. Now if the mobs would be simply stronger for both of us (or x amount of players, amybe at a worldboss) this would not happen. So it does not satisfy my needs at all or 95% of my friends and guild members who are not playing overland for the same reason. Ofc you meet some of them - it would be more beneficial for ESO and ZOS to adress this issue for a wider audience tho.

They can't debuff themselves in this game. Removing your gear is not the same thing. And if there was one thing I think everyone here should be able to agree on is that "just remove your gear" is at this point an irritating suggestion that does not work.

I agree that it's less a less immersive idea than a separate instance but it's definitely better than what we have now.

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

Now i debuff myself to have more immersion but it doesn help since the guy next to me does in 3 secs before i started buffing up. I dont know how that is so hard to understand.

What is hard to understand isn't that you personally wouldn't like it. What is hard to understand is why you think everyone would feel the same way. Or why you don't get that from a pure gameplay perspective this is functionally not at all different than a 20k player fighting in the same instance as a 100k player in vet mode. It's like you're conflating your personal immersion with gameplay mechanics and then telling me I need to feel the same way about it or that everyone does.

Even when I point to it being a massive success in other games because there's a lot of people that would either like this better than nothing, don't mind, and even some that see that as a positive. I know someone IRL that I could quest alongside for example if I was debuffed and they were not. They could never follow me into vet mode. So being able to play alongside them would actually be a good thing for me.

It's okay for us to like different solutions. And both of those solutions are proven successful in other mmos. They are both valid.

ShalidorsHeir

I just look at it from a point of view that is representive for myself and, as mentioned, 90%+ of the players, i am surrounded with. While you seem to enjoy overland already as well as those who came up with that debuff idea i try to get a voice for those who do not play overland at all because of how it is. I am simply sure of 2 things: a) it is more effort for ZOS to do it like this, since i am a dev and dev archtiect myself and b) it should aim for the widest audience as possible where this debuff solution does not appeal to players like me, not only talking about myself as already mentioned. But im pretty sure the vet instance would be appealing to "us" as well as to you.

spartaxoxo

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

I just look at it from a point of view that is representive for myself and, as mentioned, 90%+ of the players, i am surrounded with. While you seem to enjoy overland already as well as those who came up with that debuff idea i try to get a voice for those who do not play overland at all because of how it is. I am simply sure of 2 things: a) it is more effort for ZOS to do it like this, since i am a dev and dev archtiect myself and b) it should aim for the widest audience as possible where this debuff solution does not appeal to players like me, not only talking about myself as already mentioned.

I actually very much doubt that it is less work to overhaul the entire game than to give players a debuff slider. That's actually the reason that LOTRO for example scrapped the idea of a different server and instead implemented a debuff slider.

In fact those developers described it as a "cheat" because of how much easier it was.

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

But im pretty sure the vet instance would be appealing to "us" as well as to you.

I would be way less happy with a separate instance than a debuff slider. I have explained why before. I would use anything they gave us because I want to be able to increase difficulty. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be happier with a debuff slider.

ShalidorsHeir

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

I just look at it from a point of view that is representive for myself and, as mentioned, 90%+ of the players, i am surrounded with. While you seem to enjoy overland already as well as those who came up with that debuff idea i try to get a voice for those who do not play overland at all because of how it is. I am simply sure of 2 things: a) it is more effort for ZOS to do it like this, since i am a dev and dev archtiect myself and b) it should aim for the widest audience as possible where this debuff solution does not appeal to players like me, not only talking about myself as already mentioned.

I actually very much doubt that it is less work to overhaul the entire game than to give players a debuff slider. That's actually the reason that LOTRO for example scrapped the idea of a different server and instead implemented a debuff slider.

In fact those developers described it as a "cheat" because of how much easier it was.

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

But im pretty sure the vet instance would be appealing to "us" as well as to you.

I would be way less happy with a separate instance than a debuff slider. I have explained why before. I would use anything they gave us because I want to be able to increase difficulty. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be happier with a debuff slider.

ye but you would enjoy this as well. taken the exploits i mentioned into account it is more effort. It's not rewritting the whole overland content - i explained and CP5 already explained kinda of how it works. It is code for a flag instance creation, not ver much effort and a config for that so ti can be adjusted, even less work.

spartaxoxo

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

I just look at it from a point of view that is representive for myself and, as mentioned, 90%+ of the players, i am surrounded with. While you seem to enjoy overland already as well as those who came up with that debuff idea i try to get a voice for those who do not play overland at all because of how it is. I am simply sure of 2 things: a) it is more effort for ZOS to do it like this, since i am a dev and dev archtiect myself and b) it should aim for the widest audience as possible where this debuff solution does not appeal to players like me, not only talking about myself as already mentioned.

I actually very much doubt that it is less work to overhaul the entire game than to give players a debuff slider. That's actually the reason that LOTRO for example scrapped the idea of a different server and instead implemented a debuff slider.

In fact those developers described it as a "cheat" because of how much easier it was.

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

But im pretty sure the vet instance would be appealing to "us" as well as to you.

I would be way less happy with a separate instance than a debuff slider. I have explained why before. I would use anything they gave us because I want to be able to increase difficulty. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be happier with a debuff slider.

ye but you would enjoy this as well. taken the exploits i mentioned into account it is more effort. It's not rewritting the whole overland content - i explained and CP5 already explained kinda of how it works. It is code for a flag instance creation, not ver much effort and a config for that so ti can be adjusted, even less work.

I didn't say it was rewriting all the code. I actually didn't hazard a guess to what overhauling it would involve at all. And it isn't a simple process. The themselves have flat out said it would be a ton of work to do what you want them to do. They may be in a similar situation as LOTRO devs were or whatever.

Regardless it is not a simple adjustment. You don't work for Zenimax. Rich does and Rich is also someone who loves difficulty. He flat-out stated that this was a barrier as to why they haven't done.

I personally think that if it was as simple as that, they'd have done it already.

Anyway every other video game developer I have ever seen has described debuffing the player character as the cheaper method, and LOTRO devs flat out called it cheating. So I'm inclinded to believe it is generally less work than changing each of the mob types.

tonyblack

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Better question would be why advocating for something that is already available in game? What stopping you from using it now?

What he's suggesting is stronger than just taking off your gear and cp, and is not in the game.

Moreover, taking off your gear sacrifices your progression entirely. Debuffs don't.

If you have gear that gives you 30k hp and you lose half of it, that would leave you with 15k. If you have gear that gives you 20k hp and you lose half of it, that is 10k. The gear that increased your hp still made a difference, just less than if you weren't debuffed.

Stronger how? Using blank armory slot + equipping lvl 1 weapon would reduce damage by much more than any debuff would. From my little experiment it dropped from 60k on 3kk skeleton to less then 1k. Healing obviously become weak as well and damage received was also noticeable. Killing 1 mob was ok, but from group of 3 i had to run away and make some adjustments, because it was too much damage and not enough sustain. Facing boss was even harder.

I see little difference between self nerf and debuff. In both cases you sacrificed or erased your progression. What different about using your perfected gold gear that supposed to buff damage you nerfed with debuff and unequipping it? (or if talking about hp bonus from your example which is nullified by damage received)

Sylvermynx

The disconnect here is that this game doesn't add content with "ramped levels". So the issue is that in ESO, no zone is ever going to be more difficult - and that's a choice the developers have made.

I've played WoW and RIFT - both released expacs where the difficulty was increased, as did the levels the characters on one's account attained. But because of those mechanics, in those games, one had to chase gear, gain levels, deal with (sometimes agonizingly annoying) mechanics if one wanted to "progress".

I found ESO - and for me it was a breath of fresh air. I could get to CP 160 - and I never had to chase gear, chase levels, ever again.... To me that's freedom. Personally I love it.

I also understand that there are many who would really prefer that "ramped levels" expac release situation. I'm wondering if at this point in the game's life, a huge change of that sort is even possible.

mocap

I did all that self debufs mentioned above like year ago: vamp 4, white lvl 1 gear, only QoL CP passives like horse speed. I even equiped Thrassian Stranglers (sadly debuf turns off apon entering delvs etc). Debufing yourself feels just wrong. We need personal difficulty slider which will.

And pls, stop messing that slider with dungeons/trials content. Obviously it must affect only and only overland and delves.

colossalvoids

Sylvermynx wrote: »

The disconnect here is that this game doesn't add content with "ramped levels". So the issue is that in ESO, no zone is ever going to be more difficult - and that's a choice the developers have made.

I've played WoW and RIFT - both released expacs where the difficulty was increased, as did the levels the characters on one's account attained. But because of those mechanics, in those games, one had to chase gear, gain levels, deal with (sometimes agonizingly annoying) mechanics if one wanted to "progress".

I found ESO - and for me it was a breath of fresh air. I could get to CP 160 - and I never had to chase gear, chase levels, ever again.... To me that's freedom. Personally I love it.

I also understand that there are many who would really prefer that "ramped levels" expac release situation. I'm wondering if at this point in the game's life, a huge change of that sort is even possible.

I'm pretty sure majority of people advocating for vet aren't in favour of just copying other MMOs experience here. Some are but you can get bitter and salty enough after years of being ignored, no wonder.

I personally see it like we're getting 4 coins a year. Two of them are double sided and two are just tails with no other option so we're buying it only for the wrapping of sorts, or trying to enjoy one side as much as we can before getting multi sided one again. Pretty stupid analogy but okay for my English level lol.

If I'll be able to experience main quest lines in a solo-arena way going forward it would do for me personally and would make a wait for another proper one less daunting as we're only having two now after all the years.

ShalidorsHeir

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

I just look at it from a point of view that is representive for myself and, as mentioned, 90%+ of the players, i am surrounded with. While you seem to enjoy overland already as well as those who came up with that debuff idea i try to get a voice for those who do not play overland at all because of how it is. I am simply sure of 2 things: a) it is more effort for ZOS to do it like this, since i am a dev and dev archtiect myself and b) it should aim for the widest audience as possible where this debuff solution does not appeal to players like me, not only talking about myself as already mentioned.

I actually very much doubt that it is less work to overhaul the entire game than to give players a debuff slider. That's actually the reason that LOTRO for example scrapped the idea of a different server and instead implemented a debuff slider.

In fact those developers described it as a "cheat" because of how much easier it was.

ShalidorsHeir wrote: »

But im pretty sure the vet instance would be appealing to "us" as well as to you.

I would be way less happy with a separate instance than a debuff slider. I have explained why before. I would use anything they gave us because I want to be able to increase difficulty. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be happier with a debuff slider.

ye but you would enjoy this as well. taken the exploits i mentioned into account it is more effort. It's not rewritting the whole overland content - i explained and CP5 already explained kinda of how it works. It is code for a flag instance creation, not ver much effort and a config for that so ti can be adjusted, even less work.

I didn't say it was rewriting all the code. I actually didn't hazard a guess to what overhauling it would involve at all. And it isn't a simple process. The themselves have flat out said it would be a ton of work to do what you want them to do. They may be in a similar situation as LOTRO devs were or whatever.

Regardless it is not a simple adjustment. You don't work for Zenimax. Rich does and Rich is also someone who loves difficulty. He flat-out stated that this was a barrier as to why they haven't done.

I personally think that if it was as simple as that, they'd have done it already.

Anyway every other video game developer I have ever seen has described debuffing the player character as the cheaper method, and LOTRO devs flat out called it cheating. So I'm inclinded to believe it is generally less work than changing each of the mob types.

Any dev ever says: this is going to take some time ... i dont believe rich, i have too much experiences in that business, sorry, Experience on how you present things to public or in front of a stack holder, even if you already know what to do - sure things have to be done but a barrier? You are pretty light minded at this point. Its only re-usage and linking of code that has been implemented already. They developed a card game and the companion system. Like it or not, but THAT was 500000% more effort than both of our solutions would be.

... inbetween i just saw more people who dont agree to debuffs btw. for the reasons i already called, just saying.

Riptide

I was unaware this thread was ongoing, and while I hope thoughts get filtered through to decision makers - well, I have been posting and asking for this for so many years that it kind of makes me sad.

I was among the very first of the testers for this game. I was certainly one of the first 2-3 people outside of friends and family to walk up and behold the Elden Tree for the first time.

I don’t mention this to say my opinion is better than others but to try to relay my perspective.

That moment of walking up and seeing the majestic tree still stands as one of the most memorable in all of gaming, and I have been doing that since 300 baud.

It was hard to get there, at the time. You had to overcome not just all the glitches in the early early early bits of the game, which is lateral.

You had to fight to get there. It wasn’t a cakewalk, and it had a catharsis that outside of veteran content I haven’t experienced in ESO for years. It needs it, to enhance the content.

For years it has felt as if the internal, winning argument has been that it would divide the playerbase. Someone with decision making power has been convinced that that is just too dangerous to seriously contemplate.

And it is wrong. There are any number of solutions. From making cities overlap modes to debuff approaches to any number of ideas put forward.

There are also limitless rewards to provide that do not break the game mechanically or edge out the crown store. Skins, mounts, houses, furniture and all manner of cosmetic options have been leveraged to the bleeding edge for revenue, to provide some of these for difficult gameplay is a reinvestment in the game. A long overdue investment.

Seriously a veteran overland mode would mean the difference in ESO being something I actively played as my main game and a sort of sad nostalgia occasional drop in. And there are many like me.

Please, please front burner it. It was past time before companions. After companions it is negligent not to.