Overland Content Feedback Thread

Heartrage

I think an optional veteran mode for overland could be great. I think the loot from this mode should only be boosted to cover the extra time it takes to clear mobs. (I.e. 20% more gold if it takes 20% more time to kill)

Sylvermynx

Araxyte wrote: »

Why are people against an optional difficulty toggle on your character? How does this affect your easy-mode experience in any way, shape or form? Why are you so against us all playing the game the way we want? I'm fully convinced now that the same people, that have been commenting on this thread every day for the past few months opposing an optional vet mode, are just commenting for fun. Everyone including zos can see this, it's the same few people. If you ignore these posts, you can clearly see that the majority want an optional vet mode as long as it doesn't affect those that want to continue with 1-hit mob easy mode.

I'm not now and haven't been against optional anything. I think the best thing is probably an optional vet overland instance, though a toggle could also work (similar to what LotRO has done). I'm not concerned about "splitting the playerbase" - I love landing in an instance without huge gobs of people personally....

And of course, the "majority" of posters in this thread may want harder overland, but we don't know what a majority of people who don't use this forum want.

ShalidorsHeir

An additional thing that would help making overland and dalies within more challanging without leaving everything to pure dps is certain repeatable quests like the heist and assasination dailies from dark brotherhood and theives guild. i really miss this kind of content in general thee days. Pretty sure this would make a great complementation to the usual "just kill things" stuff in a competetive way. (at least for future content)

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It is still hard for me to comprehend how some players are unhappy because they have gotten stronger and aren't struggling any more. This is so contradictaory to what progression is.

I accept that some players feel that way, and even support some of the ideas presented in this thread, but I will never understand it.

The idea for some is as you rise in power, the challenges you face rise with you. Sure, standard bandits shouldn't be an issue, but killing deadric princes, ancient vampire lords, things like that? That shouldn't be an encounter that leaves such a hollow impact, because I know as a player an oversized croc under wayrest is more threatening than they are, and knowing a world ending 'threat' is less of a danger than a random pest? Hard to say I feel invested in that.

I don't know where that idea comes from. Players level and grow stronger, but the mobs don't. How would they? It doesn't matter if it's a wolf or a Daedric prince, they are what they are and that doesn't change just because our character has progressed.

We can't say that a standard mob shouldn't be an issue but certain others should be more difficult because that is redefining what this game is. The developers decide which mobs are standard and which are stronger. They created this world and the story that we engage in. Why would we think we can tweak all the mobs and completely change the basic structure of the game to something we want it to be?

Every MMO I've played has had easy leveling zones with challenges in dungeons and trials. It's a formula that works and makes sense. Why would anyone come to this game and be surprised that they do it the same way here?

And as I've said many times I support a debuff and challenge banners for quest bosses because those don't change the basic structure of the basic game. But I believe that a separate veteran overland would be very harmful for the many reasons I've stated before.

Sylvermynx

@SilverBride - this is the only game I've ever played where game content (outside of vet content) never gets harder. I LIKE it that way, but for people who still play WoW or FFXIV or whichever other games, it's a very strange concept and they generally do NOT like it.

I would have found this game really odd and probably not stuck around had I played it 20 years ago when I had better younger reflexes.... though my ping would still cause issues of course.

Lysette

But having them all in the same instance will not be a good experience for them either - there are then debuffed vets and normal vets in the same environment - the debuffed one, seeking the challenge is fighting the boss, enjoying it - and a non-debuffed vet comes in, bang bash dead - like I said before - ruining the experience of the debuffed vet - they will experience then that what we casuals experience when a normal vet comes in and nukes our content - it will be the same bad experience - just that now it effects not just us casuals but those challenge seeking vets as well.

SilverBride

Sylvermynx wrote: »

@SilverBride - this is the only game I've ever played where game content (outside of vet content) never gets harder. I LIKE it that way, but for people who still play WoW or FFXIV or whichever other games, it's a very strange concept and they generally do NOT like it.

I would have found this game really odd and probably not stuck around had I played it 20 years ago when I had better younger reflexes.... though my ping would still cause issues of course.

Other games are set up differently in that their zones are different level ranges. Some games for example have zones for levels 1 to 10, zones for 10 to 20 etc. that the players go through in a linear fashion. ESO doesn't do it this way so that players have the freedom to play in any zone at any level.

But none of these zones get harder as the player progresses. A level 50 in one of these games can't go back to a level 1 to 10 zone and expect that it becomes harder so a level 50 player can be challenged.

SilverBride

Lysette wrote: »

But having them all in the same instance will not be a good experience for them either - there are then debuffed vets and normal vets in the same environment - the debuffed one, seeking the challenge is fighting the boss, enjoying it - and a non-debuffed vet comes in, bang bash dead - like I said before - ruining the experience of the debuffed vet - they will experience then that what we casuals experience when a normal vet comes in and nukes our content - it will be the same bad experience - just that now it effects not just us casuals but those challenge seeking vets as well.

We already have level 1 to level 50 players in the same zones and sometimes others come along and engage a mob that someone else is already fighting. This won't be any different with a debuff and the same thing can and will happen in a separate veteran overland. This is the nature of multiplayer games.

Lysette

SilverBride wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

But having them all in the same instance will not be a good experience for them either - there are then debuffed vets and normal vets in the same environment - the debuffed one, seeking the challenge is fighting the boss, enjoying it - and a non-debuffed vet comes in, bang bash dead - like I said before - ruining the experience of the debuffed vet - they will experience then that what we casuals experience when a normal vet comes in and nukes our content - it will be the same bad experience - just that now it effects not just us casuals but those challenge seeking vets as well.

We already have level 1 to level 50 players in the same zones and sometimes others come along and engage a mob that someone else is already fighting. This won't be any different with a debuff and the same thing can and will happen in a separate veteran overland. This is the nature of multiplayer games.

not if separate vet instance would just let vets in, which are as well debuffed and challenge seeking - then all have the same conditions and their abilities are much alike - not like it is normal instances, where the dps range from 2k to 125k dps - this is something what should not be like this - it is just not fun to find a quest area like a "heavily guarded" fortress - nearly empty, and this is already how it is more often than not - having even more vets in this content will just make it even worse. If those are not separated - and flooding in due to the new options, this will make the gameplay for a whole lot of people a much worse experience - all these nice quests are not nice at all, if the content, which one should encounter, is already dead.

summ0004

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This is why I asked for a debuff slider, which only changes my character. The same solo shortcut added later by another MMO with a similar problem. I recognize that they said a vet mode all was too much work, so I offered a solution a smaller MMO with less resources found doable.

I appreciate that you don't like this idea because then you'd have more players using Overland with you. But, I am not requesting all new mechanics for everything.

I don't see how it's unreasonable to ask for a feature added years after it's launch in one MMO to this one. They chose that solution presumably because it was more cost-effective timewise.

This^

Lysette

Now I just had an "aha" moment - my problem with quest content mostly being "no there" could be easily solved by letting the content respawn in a much short time span - raising the probability, that more will be alive and if I am really lucky, I might actually encounter a quest, where actually most is still alive - this did not happen once during the last month for me. And this is my main concern with the vet overland - that it will make this experience even more common and ruin my experience.

SilverBride

Lysette wrote: »

not if separate vet instance would just let vets in, which are as well debuffed and challenge seeking - then all have the same conditions and their abilities are much alike - not like it is normal instances, where the dps range from 2k to 125k dps - this is something what should not be like this - it is just not fun to find a quest area like a "heavily guarded" fortress - nearly empty, and this is already how it is more often than not - having even more vets in this content will just make it even worse. If those are not separated - and flooding in due to the new options, this will make the gameplay for a whole lot of people a much worse experience - all these nice quests are not nice at all, if the content, which one should encounter, is already dead.

What is a vet? Is it a player who has reached level 50? Is it someone who has played a long time? Or is it an end game player who does veteran content? How would they decide who is allowed in and who isn't?

There are many players who could be considered vets and these would have various levels of gear and skills and experience. Veteran overland would have just as varied a player population as overland does now.

I can just imagine the outrage if a player wanted to try veteran overland but was denied the opportunity because they didn't meet some other players' ideas of what a vet is. We could expect to see a lot of threads pop up about how unfair this is.

summ0004

Lysette wrote: »

But will such a slider be really more of a challenge, or not just prolong the fight with the same outcome - this is what I ask myself with it - if there would be slider to put a cap on my damage for example, would I use it?- What would it change in my gameplay - my characters would still be tanky and wouldn't have to fear a thing in most cases - and it would just be a longer fight than normal - not much more of a challenge, but much more of a tedious chore. At least I would see it as such.

The difference is it will allow your character to actually use the skills on the skill bar and see some of the animations. Using more abilities increases the engagement and makes things more fun. And as you level, seeing another ability become unlocked and can be used also makes things more fun and gives a sense of progression which is the whole point of RPGs.

Currently its is literally pointless using any skills other than a spammable ability and heavy/light attacks.

Lysette

summ0004 wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

But will such a slider be really more of a challenge, or not just prolong the fight with the same outcome - this is what I ask myself with it - if there would be slider to put a cap on my damage for example, would I use it?- What would it change in my gameplay - my characters would still be tanky and wouldn't have to fear a thing in most cases - and it would just be a longer fight than normal - not much more of a challenge, but much more of a tedious chore. At least I would see it as such.

The difference is it will allow your character to actually use the skills on the skill bar and see some of the animations. Using more abilities increases the engagement and makes things more fun. And as you level, seeing another ability become unlocked and can be used also makes things more fun and gives a sense of progression which is the whole point of RPGs.

Currently its is literally pointless using any skills other than a spammable ability and heavy/light attacks.

hm, yes, makes sense to me.

SilverBride

Most of the posters in this thread support a more difficult experience for those who want that. There seems to be a general concensus that debuffs and challenge banners would work very well to give these players the experience they are looking for.

The disagreement is almost exclusively centered around a separate veteran overland instance that many believe has way more cons than pros and would be harmful to the game.

spartaxoxo

I think the general consensus is that a way to increase difficulty is needed has generally been achieved. People vary on why they support such a thing, but that's the general consensus.

The debate in this thread is mostly centered around how to implement it. One side wants the game overhauled to include a vet and normal mode that are separate instances of the same zone and the other wants a debuff slider or some other method of implementing them (similar to LOTRO).

There is near universal agreement on adding challenge banners to the end story bosses.

There are also minority opinions floating around: new adventure zones, doing nothing, upgrading all of the existing maps to a harder difficulty and forcing everyone to use that, solo private instances where everyone can choose their own difficulty, having more stuff like the WWB bosses added to base game zones, having different difficulties on the map based on time of day and proximity to towns, etc. Wonder if I missed one...

Those who favor a separate instance are mixed opinion of whether or not new mechanics should be added, and also what difficult it should be tuned to. Though I believe the general consensus is that new mechs are not necessary and only a modest increase in difficulty is needed.

Those who favor debuffs largely don't favor new mechs being added for using those debuffs. A slider doesn’t need to be tuned to any particular difficulty and can provide multiple different levels inherently, so that has largely been undiscussed.

We are all wanting and waiting on a developer response soon.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It is still hard for me to comprehend how some players are unhappy because they have gotten stronger and aren't struggling any more. This is so contradictaory to what progression is.

I accept that some players feel that way, and even support some of the ideas presented in this thread, but I will never understand it.

The idea for some is as you rise in power, the challenges you face rise with you. Sure, standard bandits shouldn't be an issue, but killing deadric princes, ancient vampire lords, things like that? That shouldn't be an encounter that leaves such a hollow impact, because I know as a player an oversized croc under wayrest is more threatening than they are, and knowing a world ending 'threat' is less of a danger than a random pest? Hard to say I feel invested in that.

I don't know where that idea comes from. Players level and grow stronger, but the mobs don't. How would they? It doesn't matter if it's a wolf or a Daedric prince, they are what they are and that doesn't change just because our character has progressed.

We can't say that a standard mob shouldn't be an issue but certain others should be more difficult because that is redefining what this game is. The developers decide which mobs are standard and which are stronger. They created this world and the story that we engage in. Why would we think we can tweak all the mobs and completely change the basic structure of the game to something we want it to be?

Every MMO I've played has had easy leveling zones with challenges in dungeons and trials. It's a formula that works and makes sense. Why would anyone come to this game and be surprised that they do it the same way here?

And as I've said many times I support a debuff and challenge banners for quest bosses because those don't change the basic structure of the basic game. But I believe that a separate veteran overland would be very harmful for the many reasons I've stated before.

Most video games, rpgs included, start with players weak and with few abilities fighting weak enemies who have few abilities themselves. As you level you gain power but also move onto facing bigger challenges. In what other game would a level 1 player fight a dragon? In ESO though, every zone is a potential beginner zone, every story line is a potential first story line, and every big bad can be seen next to a level 10 character, still wearing the rags they start the game with, and having that player win. This isn't a bad thing, but it means that for those who are actually accustomed to facing increasing odds as their skills improve, this boss whose catered to giving the new player an engaging experience, they come off as painfully simple.

Because in most video games, again, particularly rpgs, the game starts simple and progresses into something more as players gain the tools needed to face more challenging foes and complex situations, but ESO has every zone built as a beginner zone as to not turn away new player, for which those new zones are their first.

The devs have decided this, curating each zone to be approachable to new players, but at the cost of having every enemy, even "end of the world threats" hold their punches and be intentionally designed to show rather than engagement, which, again, ESO is a video game, interactive media where most situations like this would demand more input on the players part, more of a sense of growth by learning how to play the game and how to use the tools they gain along the way.

Just use the random dungeon finder and keep an eye on the players who group with you. How many know what a buff skill is and use them? How many of them know how to interrupt an enemy who is channeling a skill or break free when stunned? How many know how to manage being attacked by a big enemy in any way other than running, or how to prioritize things that aren't the boss? An RPG should be encouraging players to look forward to their next unlocked skill, eagerly awaiting the chance to get it and try it out, but in ESO that is not the case, I even remember one player mentioning how their friend didn't unlock any skills until after level 50 because they didn't know, and they were able to get that far because they didn't even need them. Having players engage enough with the game to learn these things is important, and while it is good that people can enjoy the game as is (a point I won't change), if the overland fails to engage people so completely that they don't even learn the basics of the game, how engaging is it for people who already mastered these skills? No amount of self nerfing will fix this.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

Most video games, rpgs included, start with players weak and with few abilities fighting weak enemies who have few abilities themselves. As you level you gain power but also move onto facing bigger challenges. In what other game would a level 1 player fight a dragon? In ESO though, every zone is a potential beginner zone, every story line is a potential first story line, and every big bad can be seen next to a level 10 character, still wearing the rags they start the game with, and having that player win. This isn't a bad thing, but it means that for those who are actually accustomed to facing increasing odds as their skills improve, this boss whose catered to giving the new player an engaging experience, they come off as painfully simple.

It is true that other games have a linear path where the zones become more difficult as players level and move to more difficult areas, but ESO doesn't. They prefer to give the player more freedom in where they quest, but they didn't just make all zones level 1. From what I've read the mobs are all CP 160 and players are scaled to this. So the end result is that the mobs match the players' level.

Also in these other games high level characters can't go back to low level zones and expect the mobs to increase in difficulty and provide a challenge for them.

CP5 wrote: »

Just use the random dungeon finder and keep an eye on the players who group with you. How many know what a buff skill is and use them? How many of them know how to interrupt an enemy who is channeling a skill or break free when stunned? How many know how to manage being attacked by a big enemy in any way other than running, or how to prioritize things that aren't the boss?

The only way a player can learn the mechanics they will find in a dungeon is by doing dungeons. Overland is for questing and the story and is not a training ground for end game content. I don't know any game where the questing zones train players for this.

spartaxoxo

Most MMOs I have played the Overland is really easy once you're in vet gear, and then the true end game is PVP and Raiding. People click through quests as fast as possible and easily plow through it in their elite gear to get skill points, exp, etc. All the good gear was in the raids too and was sellable, so people would sell that gear to lower level players.

The most elite players also could beat those pretty quickly as well, at least compared to the rest of the playerbase.

But, the rest of the playerbase could get decently skilled just by playing the game. They didn't need to practice a rotation or anything like that. So the gap between the top and the middle was large, but not nearly as big as the gap in ESO. A lot of players of mid-tiers players would then spend a LOT of their time doing group content but not in something as easy as the normal mode dungeons in this game. I remember spending hours in raids late at night in college, drinking a ton of red bull, and then going to class in the Morning bleary eyed but happy.

The PUG vet scene, the mid-game scene in this game is totally dead. It sucks. Even if you're one of the ones both skilled and fortunate enough to get into doing the trials, you have to do them at very specific times and dates. It's you can do this "Thursday at 9pm," so it's hard to just go and find a challenge.

You could try to PUG a vet DLC dungeon for a skin, but the odds of you finding a group in GF that's at all capable of even attempting a clear let alone an achievement is low. And even these tend to be something premades schedule with guilds rather than just pick up an do, albeit they do pug those a lot more often than the vet trials. So even you could do vet dungeons or trials, you're probably not going to find the kind of challenge you want there. You could do VVH or VMA again, but overall there is a total lack of things to do once you reach even a slight above average power level.

I think this is a big reason that the idea of being able to increase difficulty in vet overland is so appealing. Because other games that get away with easy overland quests (which I agree has generally been my experience, I've personally not run across very many MMOs with a challenging overland once you're high level) also have a lot more ability to go and do other challenging content to supplement it.

In this game, PVP is busted and vet content is sparse. So you're naturally going to turn your sites to what works and is abundant, but unfortunately that content has no option to give you what you want either.

CP5

"The only way a player can learn the mechanics they will find in a dungeon is by doing dungeons. Overland is for questing and the story and is not a training ground for end game content. I don't know any game where the questing zones train players for this."

No, Silver, basics of gameplay are things players should be able to learn from interacting with the game. Literally in the first 5s of playing the original mario, if you don't jump, you die. No if ands or buts, you need that skill to succeed and if you don't show the ability to time a jump to get over one enemy you won't progress. Nothing in ESO needs to be that serious, but if people can't even get a basic understanding of the game from putting dozens of hours between multiple zones, it only goes to say just how little the designers expect players to do.

This means if players need to do something like "interrupt the boss," they have no clue what "interrupting" them means. If that is tied to a "do this or wipe" mechanic, then those players leave feeling cheated because the game expected them to do something they never learned to do. If, say, healer mobs were strong enough to out heal a lot of damage, but interrupting them shut them down entirely, players could actually learn this skill outside of group content. It isn't hard to imagine many players are hesitant to join groups because they feel they would be judged, so they should be able to actually have a chance to learn the skills they need to succeed without having to group up with others.

These players never learn the basics, see anything beyond overland as too hard, and see those who have progressed to that point as elitist trying to lord their play style over them. This causes some people to leave before they really see what ESO can offer, and creates an environment where those who know how to play really have to stretch their patience to enjoy the content. And it hurts when that content is literally the world.

spartaxoxo

CP5 wrote: »

"The only way a player can learn the mechanics they will find in a dungeon is by doing dungeons. Overland is for questing and the story and is not a training ground for end game content. I don't know any game where the questing zones train players for this."

No, Silver, basics of gameplay are things players should be able to learn from interacting with the game. Literally in the first 5s of playing the original mario, if you don't jump, you die. No if ands or buts, you need that skill to succeed and if you don't show the ability to time a jump to get over one enemy you won't progress. Nothing in ESO needs to be that serious, but if people can't even get a basic understanding of the game from putting dozens of hours between multiple zones, it only goes to say just how little the designers expect players to do.

This means if players need to do something like "interrupt the boss," they have no clue what "interrupting" them means. If that is tied to a "do this or wipe" mechanic, then those players leave feeling cheated because the game expected them to do something they never learned to do. If, say, healer mobs were strong enough to out heal a lot of damage, but interrupting them shut them down entirely, players could actually learn this skill outside of group content. It isn't hard to imagine many players are hesitant to join groups because they feel they would be judged, so they should be able to actually have a chance to learn the skills they need to succeed without having to group up with others.

These players never learn the basics, see anything beyond overland as too hard, and see those who have progressed to that point as elitist trying to lord their play style over them. This causes some people to leave before they really see what ESO can offer, and creates an environment where those who know how to play really have to stretch their patience to enjoy the content. And it hurts when that content is literally the world.

Overland prepares people pretty adequately for normal base game dungeons, and those normal base game dungeons do a good job of teaching people those very basic skills when they aren't being plowed through by vet players.

The progression arc isn't supposed to be Overland > vet dungeons.

It's supposed to be Overland > normal base game dungeons > vet base game dungeons/normal DLC dungeons > vet DLC dungeons. And it's pretty doubtful that any vet overland version would change that loop.

Araxyte

wrote:

[Quoted Post Removed]

[snip]

Having an optional overland veteran mode would make the game more inclusive and possibly bring in more players. Considering it is the largest part of the game, everyone should be able to play it the way they want. Dungeons and trials have normal, veteran and hard mode, and this is a relatively small portion of the game - I wish overland also had this.

[Edited for Baiting]

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

No, Silver, basics of gameplay are things players should be able to learn from interacting with the game. Literally in the first 5s of playing the original mario, if you don't jump, you die. No if ands or buts, you need that skill to succeed and if you don't show the ability to time a jump to get over one enemy you won't progress. Nothing in ESO needs to be that serious, but if people can't even get a basic understanding of the game from putting dozens of hours between multiple zones, it only goes to say just how little the designers expect players to do.

Players learn overland skills by interacting with overland. They learn dungeon skills by interacting with dungeons. Your example of Mario proves that point.

In Mario you have to jump and if you don't jump you die. That is a skill that is necessary in Mario so that makes sense. That skill doesn't however train you to do dungeons or other more difficult content because that isn't something Mario even has (as far as I know, it's been years since I played Mario.).

In ESO a player does get a basic understanding of the game by playing overland. They learn everything they need to know about questing and doing the story from overland.

They do not need to learn dungeon mechanics from the base game. Those are learned in dungeons. Overland does not need to play like a dungeon to train these things to players who may never step foot in one.

CP5

Overland doesn't require player skills though, so people learn nothing. When I was in cloudrest once, there is a part in one of the fights where a few players need to disengage from the boss and kill multiple stationary targets. This player I was with cast volley on every single one, without knowing either that you can only have 1 aoe active of each skill at a time, and that volley doesn't deal its damage until a few seconds after you cast it. They never needed to pay attention to their skills long enough to learn this.

When I was fighting the hunger world boss in vvardenfel, the one that hard cc's one player and someone else has to interrupt it? Was duoing it easily with a low level player, but every time I got pinned I died because this player, even when mentioning it in chat, didn't understand what to do and what to look for. Thankfully, they had pets that held the boss long enough for me to rez each time, but all it required was 2 keys to be pressed to meaningfully engage with the fight.

Or how about the poster who mentioned one player was stuck on a quest boss for hours, but all it turned out they needed to do was turn their attention away from the boss, likely toward some glowing mcguffin, for only a moment, to progress the fight and not die?

If I'm in the dungeon finder and a player cast any buff skill, especially if they do so before a fight, they're instantly in the top 10% of players. Why wouldn't people, in an RPG, be eager to use their cool skills that they've been unlocking, especially if they make the fights easier as well?

Players aren't paying attention to what their skills do because they don't need to. Players aren't learning core combat principles that are applicable everywhere in the game, like interrupting, because enemies do that outside of dungeons. Players aren't used to doing anything more than mindlessly attacking the boss, so in fights where you need to do anything else, they're overwhelmed. And players aren't even interested in utilizing the cool skills they're gaining in an RPG because the energy required to intentionally use these skills is more than just clearing most fights without them. That is what I mean, these aren't "Dungeon specific mechanics," they're the heart of what makes ESO's gameplay different than other mmo's.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

Overland doesn't require player skills though, so people learn nothing. When I was in cloudrest once, there is a part in one of the fights where a few players need to disengage from the boss and kill multiple stationary targets. This player I was with cast volley on every single one, without knowing either that you can only have 1 aoe active of each skill at a time, and that volley doesn't deal its damage until a few seconds after you cast it. They never needed to pay attention to their skills long enough to learn this.

When I was fighting the hunger world boss in vvardenfel, the one that hard cc's one player and someone else has to interrupt it? Was duoing it easily with a low level player, but every time I got pinned I died because this player, even when mentioning it in chat, didn't understand what to do and what to look for. Thankfully, they had pets that held the boss long enough for me to rez each time, but all it required was 2 keys to be pressed to meaningfully engage with the fight.

Or how about the poster who mentioned one player was stuck on a quest boss for hours, but all it turned out they needed to do was turn their attention away from the boss, likely toward some glowing mcguffin, for only a moment, to progress the fight and not die?

If I'm in the dungeon finder and a player cast any buff skill, especially if they do so before a fight, they're instantly in the top 10% of players. Why wouldn't people, in an RPG, be eager to use their cool skills that they've been unlocking, especially if they make the fights easier as well?

Players aren't paying attention to what their skills do because they don't need to. Players aren't learning core combat principles that are applicable everywhere in the game, like interrupting, because enemies do that outside of dungeons. Players aren't used to doing anything more than mindlessly attacking the boss, so in fights where you need to do anything else, they're overwhelmed. And players aren't even interested in utilizing the cool skills they're gaining in an RPG because the energy required to intentionally use these skills is more than just clearing most fights without them. That is what I mean, these aren't "Dungeon specific mechanics," they're the heart of what makes ESO's gameplay different than other mmo's.

Some players never learn anything no matter if it's in the tutorial or a veteran trial. But overland is for questing and the story. It does not require critical thinking. It does not require mechanics. And it is not a training ground for dungeons or other end game content.

Historically in every game I have ever played... and I was an end game raider up until I came to ESO because been there done that... end game skills are learned by doing end game content. Why should ESO be different?

AlexanderDeLarge

Couldn't agree more with @CP5's post. Why would players bother to learn mechanics when it practically takes falling asleep at the keyboard to be punished for not following mechanics? Being staggered for two seconds isn't really a punishment and clearly based on the number of players I see standing in AoE ignoring the red indicators on the ground in normal dungeons and just observing overland encounters, the overland experience is reinforcing unintended behaviors.
The overland isn't doing the PvP/dungeon/trial experience any favors. The difficulty curve is incredibly ineffective and frankly the amount of players that have somehow amassed hundreds of Champion Points without understanding the fundamentals of combat, food buffs, potions and gearing is mindboggling. This is only exacerbated by the fact that as you get more champion points, the game which has already been established as easy and 'casual friendly' becomes even easier.

wazbaumukerb14_ESO

The original Guild Wars was actually pretty good about teaching some things. You could easily run into mobs who would just outheal your damage forever if you didn't have interrupts. And so on.

But that game is also 15 years old, and it's pretty hard to find an equivalent to that in the MMO space now. Josh Strife Hayes has a pretty good video on this, but among the "I quit" moments for players, one of them is just "I failed at something." One of the main reasons FTP games shovel consumables and gear at you is so that you never fail and therefore never quit.

SWTOR did add veteran/master mode challenge for some old story chapters at one, but I would be shocked if more than low single digit % of paying customers ever actually did them.

It's really unfortunate, because I am not a good player and using a stupid build with crafted gear and I still kill delve bosses in 5 seconds.

CP5

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Overland doesn't require player skills though, so people learn nothing. When I was in cloudrest once, there is a part in one of the fights where a few players need to disengage from the boss and kill multiple stationary targets. This player I was with cast volley on every single one, without knowing either that you can only have 1 aoe active of each skill at a time, and that volley doesn't deal its damage until a few seconds after you cast it. They never needed to pay attention to their skills long enough to learn this.

When I was fighting the hunger world boss in vvardenfel, the one that hard cc's one player and someone else has to interrupt it? Was duoing it easily with a low level player, but every time I got pinned I died because this player, even when mentioning it in chat, didn't understand what to do and what to look for. Thankfully, they had pets that held the boss long enough for me to rez each time, but all it required was 2 keys to be pressed to meaningfully engage with the fight.

Or how about the poster who mentioned one player was stuck on a quest boss for hours, but all it turned out they needed to do was turn their attention away from the boss, likely toward some glowing mcguffin, for only a moment, to progress the fight and not die?

If I'm in the dungeon finder and a player cast any buff skill, especially if they do so before a fight, they're instantly in the top 10% of players. Why wouldn't people, in an RPG, be eager to use their cool skills that they've been unlocking, especially if they make the fights easier as well?

Players aren't paying attention to what their skills do because they don't need to. Players aren't learning core combat principles that are applicable everywhere in the game, like interrupting, because enemies do that outside of dungeons. Players aren't used to doing anything more than mindlessly attacking the boss, so in fights where you need to do anything else, they're overwhelmed. And players aren't even interested in utilizing the cool skills they're gaining in an RPG because the energy required to intentionally use these skills is more than just clearing most fights without them. That is what I mean, these aren't "Dungeon specific mechanics," they're the heart of what makes ESO's gameplay different than other mmo's.

Some players never learn anything no matter if it's in the tutorial or a veteran trial. But overland is for questing and the story. It does not require critical thinking. It does not require mechanics. And it is not a training ground for dungeons or other end game content.

Historically in every game I have ever played... and I was an end game raider up until I came to ESO because been there done that... end game skills are learned by doing end game content. Why should ESO be different?

Why does "questing and story" only mean "to a degree that a new player can complete it without issue?" Why can't a story have actual stakes for more experienced players, so that when an npc says "we can't face the enemy now! we need to collect some powerful artifact to stand a chance" that I would actually be bothered to believe them? Again, it ins't about being a training ground, it is about what the designers expect players to do to complete the content. If there is nothing to learn, there is nothing expected, and some players can't enjoy content that expects nothing of them.

And how about this. Companions, in some interview, were cited to help newer players get comfortable grouping with others, just replacing the npc follower with a player. Sounds easy enough, except for the fact that with a companion covering for their weaknesses, this player will never learn where they're lacking. Take away a dps companion and other players will notice their lack of damage. Take away their pocket healer or tank and watch them fold to even light pressure. Many players are hesitant to join groups because they doubt they're ready, so where then should they go to learn how to play the game, if only group content is expected to be challenging enough to give them a place to learn?

And thank you wazbaumukerb14_ESO for bringing the original guild wars back up. I remember watching the video and being tempted to try the game out myself, the idea that there are so many abilities, and enemies have access to all of them, really makes it, so encounters are more about working around the abilities your enemies put forward rather than just working around obstructions put in front of the player, and it is the main reason why I feel enemies having so few, and so weak abilities that makes them so forgettable.

SilverBride

CP5 wrote: »

Why does "questing and story" only mean "to a degree that a new player can complete it without issue?"

Because if it's not easy enough to complete without issue players will quit, like they did before One Tamriel.

And yes I quit because of the difficulty. It wasn't just the split playerbase, although that definitely was an issue, but I was tired of never being able to just quest and relax when playing. And being stuck literally for days on story boss fights and unable to progress. Then Craglorn with it's extreme difficulty and forced grouping was the final straw for me. And yes it may have been easy for some but it sure wasn't for me and my friends who also left.

But we have already established that some players want more difficulty and most agree that debuffs and challenge banners are good ideas, so that is a moot point.

CP5

And what if, for some points, the bar to entry is just having a decent understanding of your skills and how to best use them? Using an aoe skill when attacked by multiple enemies? A buff that causes you to out heal incoming damage by casting it once every 30s? It is elitist of me to say perhaps, but in an rpg, it isn't "parsing and rotation and super optimal gear" but just an understanding of what skills you have and how to use them. For me, a clear sign of an inexperienced player is one who just backs away, doing heavy attacks, with full resources and a bar full of skills they don't use. As someone who has been in that design space before, the answer to why players aren't using their skills is because they never need to, and don't.