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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
Pvp build for a stamdk using whip
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Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There is no data here. Nothing for the devs to work with.
There is nothing to indicate anyone has logged onto the PTS and attempted a build with flamelash for either a duel or a mock fight in cyro or a bg or anything.
there isn't even a 3m parse or something comparing a good pvp setup to a build using whip.
there is literally nothing here to make the dev change their mind.
stop telling me how many hours you've played and put forward a data point, any data point, as to why this is bad.
You don't have to have tested it and be smart to figure out that this whip for a stamdk is completely useless.
It seems to me that some have already tested it (deltia for exemple) and don't want to play with it
No, sorry.
You have to test it.
You have to have something more solid than "but i want it" when the people you're arguing with HAVE tested it and say it's fine.
Ideally you need to try a few things, tweak some skills around, change some sets, see what works and what compromises are necessary, and then put forward and argument why that compromise is too much and it should be stamina because of reason X, Y and Z.0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »VarisVaris wrote: »@Vizirith out of curiosity why would flamelash / powerlash need a high mag pool?
if the idea is to get off balance and then powerlash, the cost reduction on powerlash is pretty big.
Yeah but for pvp you'd be unlikely to have all that much mag to spare. To break even in the hypothetical situation of 5x lashing every 22 secs (5x lashes in the 7 sec off balance window + 15 sec off balance cd) you'd need 523 mag recovery alone. And then what other mag skills do you use? Frag shield maj mending is a nice chunk of healing with the earthen heart passives in addition. You'd be hard pressed to be able to keep up everything for max effectiveness. Personally I use RAT, Volatile Armor, Cauterize, Frag Shield. Just between volatile armor and lashes I'd need 800 mag recovery to break even. Do you forgo frag shield to save mag? Maybe but the lack of min brut, ult gen and stam gen would hurt a bit; can't use fossilize because that's even more mag needed. RAT is borderline necessary.
When I say "not viable" I'm talking about would it be on par or better than mainstream stam builds. I guess you could just forgo frag shield and simply run a typical stamdk 2H/SnB build and whip spam in the off balance window. If you BB trickery the loss of frag shield wont be felt that hard and you'd basically trade some dmg (no min brut) for maybe slightly better healing (loss of on demand maj mending +min brutality (lower rally/vigor heal) vs healing from lash).
Volatile armor can be easily dropped and get your major resolve via other means perfect skill for mag sustain balance or utilize mighty chudan and well that’s one less mag skill RAT is unnecessary so there goes another mag skill. Cauterize sure gives a heal but that can be dropped for flame lash so basically drop all mag skills save for your shield for major mending and now mag sustain should be easier even more so considering the sustain dk passive changes.
1000 on burning proc off cool down is nothing to sneeze at plus all stats restored by x amount based on ultimate consumed that’s a huge burst heal. Without actually attempting to adjust or try to work it out it’s too early to say one can not make a viable stam dk pvp build utilizing flame lash.
This sounds like the worst advice anyone could give.
Dropping Hardened armor not only means that you have to waste a 2pc slot for chudan or another skill slot for skills like unstoppable (and morphs) or balance, you also give up on having 12% more healing received.
Dropping Cauterize means that you give up even more healing stamdk necessarily needs.
Same thing goes for dropping RaT, not only do you lack major expedition now you also have to drop Rally in favor of having a snare removal.
That build is so far off from being viable on way too many levels.
As I already run 5 medium on my stam dk shuffle is already in my buff bar balance is actually pretty decent for armor buff. Also roll dodge to avoid some damage. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat. To say stam dk running whip is either/or not passable or viable is a bit extreme. Been playing eso since launch and have always adapted to changes. Only mag skills I run on my pvp stam dk are fossilize and shield for major mending but have a build in mind that I’ll be able to drop shield.
No Burning Heart though, the 12% Healing Taken passive in Draconic Power? If you really prefer to use a different source of Major Resolve than Spiked Armor, you can at least slot GDB and altogether get 20% Healing Taken just from that skill.
That's more than twice the Passive Healing from Major Mending with a much more sustainable Mag cost - ignoring how you'd source your EH passives of course. Burning Heart and Minor Vitality are of course much better than Major Mending if you're not doing all of your own Healing.
Well a build I have in mind will use daedric trickery0 -
XiokroDarc✭✭✭I have the feeling that ZOS is going for more of a dual spammable concept for dragonknight with pooprocks and flame lash being alternated back and forth with the 3rd hit allowing you to stun and then dual whip to set them off balanced and then heal.
And with domihaus and ash storm both being updated, I feel like DK will be more of a choke point king in pvp, run people down a small corridor and trapping them.
This would allow the use of Noxious breath for Major Breach and Volatile Armor + Coagulating Blood which is normally a magdk thing, but would give stamdk a pretty decent heal and make the morph of Volatile Armor better with you being more close range now.
I was also thinking Rush of Agony with Chains to pull everyone into the circle and use deep breath and leap/standardEdited by XiokroDarc on October 19, 2021 1:48AM0 -
For those claimed that this change is good or somewhat acceptable, let me ask you is there already another stam spam skill in dk's class line, NO!
Then why shouldn't devs give us a stam cost spam skill and we can test about hybrid play style ? LOL
This is really simple concept, just make whip cost and damage according to your offensive stats.
Hybrid is ok or decent doesn't mean there's shouldn't be a stam cost option.
It's been long years that pvp just need to live with dizzy or dual dot skill alright, we need a actual stam spam class skill thats all.0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭JasonWangTaiwan wrote: »For those claimed that this change is good or somewhat acceptable, let me ask you is there already another stam spam skill in dk's class line, NO!
Then why shouldn't devs give us a stam cost spam skill and we can test about hybrid play style ? LOL
This is really simple concept, just make whip cost and damage according to your offensive stats.
Hybrid is ok or decent doesn't mean there's shouldn't be a stam cost option.
It's been long years that pvp just need to live with dizzy or dual dot skill alright, we need a actual stam spam class skill thats all.
ummm, yes? I know it's not fun to use but stonefist is a stam spammable.1 -
ummm, yes? I know it's not fun to use but stonefist is a stam spammable.
Stonefist has several issues:
1.Cast time which is weird and should be instant cast.
2.First hit is aoe then followed by 3 clunky range hit and doesn't do well in pvp(weaving).
3.Devs don't want to give stam whip so they twist stone titan to this weird form.
If you're referring PVE then of course it's a viable change but this change doesn't fix root issue of stam dk in PVP.
It's been least 4 years and they still won't fix this.
1 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭JasonWangTaiwan wrote: »ummm, yes? I know it's not fun to use but stonefist is a stam spammable.
Stonefist has several issues:
1.Cast time which is weird and should be instant cast.
2.First hit is aoe then followed by 3 clunky range hit and doesn't do well in pvp(weaving).
3.Devs don't want to give stam whip so they twist stone titan to this weird form.
If you're referring PVE then of course it's a viable change but this change doesn't fix root issue of stam dk in PVP.
It's been least 4 years and they still won't fix this.
just because it's not good doesn't mean you can claim it doesn't exist. maybe focus your stam spammable desires on fixing stone fist?0 -
VarisVaris✭✭✭✭✭JasonWangTaiwan wrote: »ummm, yes? I know it's not fun to use but stonefist is a stam spammable.
Stonefist has several issues:
1.Cast time which is weird and should be instant cast.
2.First hit is aoe then followed by 3 clunky range hit and doesn't do well in pvp(weaving).
3.Devs don't want to give stam whip so they twist stone titan to this weird form.
If you're referring PVE then of course it's a viable change but this change doesn't fix root issue of stam dk in PVP.
It's been least 4 years and they still won't fix this.
just because it's not good doesn't mean you can claim it doesn't exist. maybe focus your stam spammable desires on fixing stone fist?
No we have always asked for stamwhip and there's no reason to stop.1 -
Wellsley✭✭✭VarisVaris wrote: »JasonWangTaiwan wrote: »ummm, yes? I know it's not fun to use but stonefist is a stam spammable.
Stonefist has several issues:
1.Cast time which is weird and should be instant cast.
2.First hit is aoe then followed by 3 clunky range hit and doesn't do well in pvp(weaving).
3.Devs don't want to give stam whip so they twist stone titan to this weird form.
If you're referring PVE then of course it's a viable change but this change doesn't fix root issue of stam dk in PVP.
It's been least 4 years and they still won't fix this.
just because it's not good doesn't mean you can claim it doesn't exist. maybe focus your stam spammable desires on fixing stone fist?
No we have always asked for stamwhip and there's no reason to stop.
I wouldn't be against a new stone giant, but why get a fake stamwhip if that happens ? In the meantime, there is no reason to stop yes.0 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭There is no data here. Nothing for the devs to work with.
There is nothing to indicate anyone has logged onto the PTS and attempted a build with flamelash for either a duel or a mock fight in cyro or a bg or anything.
there isn't even a 3m parse or something comparing a good pvp setup to a build using whip.
there is literally nothing here to make the dev change their mind.
stop telling me how many hours you've played and put forward a data point, any data point, as to why this is bad.
You don't have to have tested it and be smart to figure out that this whip for a stamdk is completely useless.
It seems to me that some have already tested it (deltia for exemple) and don't want to play with it
No, sorry.
You have to test it.
You have to have something more solid than "but i want it" when the people you're arguing with HAVE tested it and say it's fine.
Ideally you need to try a few things, tweak some skills around, change some sets, see what works and what compromises are necessary, and then put forward and argument why that compromise is too much and it should be stamina because of reason X, Y and Z.
Most more experienced players don't test all that much. People know what sets and builds are viable for the content they are looking at. Some off meta stuff can crop up here and there but is usually so very niche, dcon magdk invis bomber for example. It all simply comes down to what content you are trying to do and how effective you need to be at it.
Is there a stamdk build that can use whip that is BETTER or EQUAL to a stamdk build that doesn't use it? Not afaik. But let's try.
Mech Acuity and Corrosive Armor:
Centered around Mech Acuity proc > Corrosive Armor> Dswing for off balance > flame lash spam.
- Pros: Equal to standard stamdk burst (corrosive armor buffs direct dmg only, effects both dswing and lash). But does have better healing while staying offensive, lower costs and less avoidable (dswing obvious>dodge/block)
- Cons: Relies heavily on lining mech acuity, ult, and dswing off balance. MAcuity 25 sec cd, off balance 21 sec cd. Awkwardly difficult playing around new MAcuity so can't just sit fb and then use it bb and proc light attack anymore. Best bet would be to bb it and spam LA's until it procs. Easily countered by a decent pvp'er when MAcuity glow hits most turtle or kite out. Also can't use malacath.
- Results: Better overall burst window than normal stamdk in corrosive, but easily countered (MAcuity), lower than normal dmg outside burst window, difficult to line up MAcuity and Dswing off balance for burst.
And that's all I've got. Dswing simply hits as hard as a buffed flame lash, just higher cost not to mention the cc/snare.
Edit: Could also use it to proc BSW which would give 66% uptime on 490 unbuffed weapon damage, not too bad I guess.Edited by Vizirith on October 19, 2021 2:43PM2 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭As I've stated many times, i'm just a pve scrub, but wouldn't armour of truth synergise perfectly well with flamelash?0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭VarisVaris wrote: »
but if your building a combo around off balance with powerlash isn't that perfect?0 -
VarisVaris✭✭✭✭✭VarisVaris wrote: »
but if your building a combo around off balance with powerlash isn't that perfect?
No there's still much better sets that don't rely on off balance.
Truth proccing on off balance doesn't help when other sets are flat out better.2 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dswing simply hits as hard as a buffed flame lash, just higher cost not to mention the cc/snare.
D Swing is channeled though. How does Whip compare with Power Bash? Maybe about the same damage, but Whip is much better to weave, and has secondary effects. How does Whip compare with Heroic Slash? About the same for weaving, maybe Heroic Slash's secondary effects are better, but Whip has much more damage. That's fair right?Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Dswing simply hits as hard as a buffed flame lash, just higher cost not to mention the cc/snare.
D Swing is channeled though. How does Whip compare with Power Bash? Maybe about the same damage, but Whip is much better to weave, and has secondary effects. How does Whip compare with Heroic Slash? About the same for weaving, maybe Heroic Slash's secondary effects are better, but Whip has much more damage. That's fair right?
Yes dswing is casted… you can get better at landing it with practice, if that is the problem. Has been one of the best stam spammables for quite awhile now.
I’m presuming you are talking about power slam as the other morph obviously isn’t a spammable. Yes lash is a bit better than one of the worst spammables. Although both are about the same to weave.
Heroic Slash isn’t a spammable, so I’m not sure why 2 very different skills used in very different builds are being compared. Was nerfed out of spamming a few years back with the SnB tank focus patch.
Whip’s secondary effects are obtained at best 7 secs out of every 22. If you have a viable build post it. Explaining things in a vacuum not factoring build/skills at all is not helpful at all. But yes if your current build is weak, a whip build might be slightly less weak.1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Dswing simply hits as hard as a buffed flame lash, just higher cost not to mention the cc/snare.
D Swing is channeled though. How does Whip compare with Power Bash? Maybe about the same damage, but Whip is much better to weave, and has secondary effects. How does Whip compare with Heroic Slash? About the same for weaving, maybe Heroic Slash's secondary effects are better, but Whip has much more damage. That's fair right?
Yes dswing is casted… you can get better at landing it with practice, if that is the problem. Has been one of the best stam spammables for quite awhile now.
I’m presuming you are talking about power slam as the other morph obviously isn’t a spammable. Yes lash is a bit better than one of the worst spammables. Although both are about the same to weave.
Heroic Slash isn’t a spammable, so I’m not sure why 2 very different skills used in very different builds are being compared. Was nerfed out of spamming a few years back with the SnB tank focus patch.
Whip’s secondary effects are obtained at best 7 secs out of every 22. If you have a viable build post it. Explaining things in a vacuum not factoring build/skills at all is not helpful at all. But yes if your current build is weak, a whip build might be slightly less weak.
I've landed several quadrillion D Swings.
If the Dark Convergence meta doesn't drive home the value of an instant melee spammable over a channeled one I don't what will.
Seething Fury is a constant secondary effect. Heroic Slash was our "other spammable" after the change to Empower and before its damage nerf as you say. The idea of StamWhip is more to replace this loss than to replace D Swing. If you didn't play the class in the early years of this game then this point may be overlooked.
I think Whip is a substantially more elegant weave than Power Slam, though that one is kind of funny because it's like you're playing drums on your opponent. Considerations about animations are fairly subjective however - as are builds and overall skill arrays. I personally would never put Mech Acuity on a class with no bonus to Crit Damage, but this is completely subjective and has no right answer.
To clarify my biases about this skill and also to @JasonWangTaiwan - I want better access to Seething Fury more than I want to drop D Swing, so I'm ok with the Mag Cost versus possibly getting a Stam morph that doesn't have Seething Fury. That's reasonable no? 225 extra Weapon Damage is nothing to scoff at. More Weapon Damage for Leap, Whirlwind, Executioner, Brawler - way better than worrying about sustaining something I might need to hit once or twice when a target is above Execute. Like you guys are spamming the same skill 5 times in a row against a single opponent? Are you playing in 2019? Perhaps people on your server play more tanky than on mine.
Quite anecdotally and parochially - I played with Pelinal's on sDK for a few patches in BGs, back when the old Champion System meant that was a very bad choice for Champion Cyrodiil, strictly to combine Whip and Executioner in one build. There were glimmers of Power there, it was just never quite as good as running another 5 piece. I think that was before Seething Fury was added, but after Heroic Slash was nerfed.
Absolutely - I think that Seething Fury should be moved to the base ability and one of the morphs converted to Stam. That would be ideal, by far, but there are some niche advantages to having an off-resource instant melee spammable, and if you don't know what they are, perhaps you have never played DK in its strongest, purest form - a PvE tank.
Edited by Urzigurumash on October 20, 2021 2:06AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Dswing simply hits as hard as a buffed flame lash, just higher cost not to mention the cc/snare.
D Swing is channeled though. How does Whip compare with Power Bash? Maybe about the same damage, but Whip is much better to weave, and has secondary effects. How does Whip compare with Heroic Slash? About the same for weaving, maybe Heroic Slash's secondary effects are better, but Whip has much more damage. That's fair right?
Yes dswing is casted… you can get better at landing it with practice, if that is the problem. Has been one of the best stam spammables for quite awhile now.
I’m presuming you are talking about power slam as the other morph obviously isn’t a spammable. Yes lash is a bit better than one of the worst spammables. Although both are about the same to weave.
Heroic Slash isn’t a spammable, so I’m not sure why 2 very different skills used in very different builds are being compared. Was nerfed out of spamming a few years back with the SnB tank focus patch.
Whip’s secondary effects are obtained at best 7 secs out of every 22. If you have a viable build post it. Explaining things in a vacuum not factoring build/skills at all is not helpful at all. But yes if your current build is weak, a whip build might be slightly less weak.
I've landed several quadrillion D Swings.
If the Dark Convergence meta doesn't drive home the value of an instant melee spammable over a channeled one I don't what will.
Seething Fury is a constant secondary effect. Heroic Slash was our "other spammable" after the change to Empower and before its damage nerf as you say. The idea of StamWhip is more to replace this loss than to replace D Swing. If you didn't play the class in the early years of this game then this point may be overlooked.
I think Whip is a substantially more elegant weave than Power Slam, though that one is kind of funny because it's like you're playing drums on your opponent. Considerations about animations are fairly subjective however - as are builds and overall skill arrays. I personally would never put Mech Acuity on a class with no bonus to Crit Damage, but this is completely subjective and has no right answer.
To clarify my biases about this skill and also to @JasonWangTaiwan - I want better access to Seething Fury more than I want to drop D Swing, so I'm ok with the Mag Cost versus possibly getting a Stam morph that doesn't have Seething Fury. That's reasonable no? 225 extra Weapon Damage is nothing to scoff at. More Weapon Damage for Leap, Whirlwind, Executioner, Brawler - way better than worrying about sustaining something I might need to hit once or twice when a target is above Execute. Like you guys are spamming the same skill 5 times in a row against a single opponent? Are you playing in 2019? Perhaps people on your server play more tanky than on mine.
Quite anecdotally and parochially - I played with Pelinal's on sDK for a few patches in BGs, back when the old Champion System meant that was a very bad choice for Champion Cyrodiil, strictly to combine Whip and Executioner in one build. There were glimmers of Power there, it was just never quite as good as running another 5 piece. I think that was before Seething Fury was added, but after Heroic Slash was nerfed.
Good for you.
Dcon won’t be meta next patch.
The nerf to heroic slash was a few years ago, I’m aware as you literally responded to me saying that. You probably adapted since then if you still play stamdk, but if you haven’t then this point may be overlooked.
I was more focused on power lash than molten for the reduced cost at least some of the time. The issue with molten whip is that while the seething fury stacks are great for overall dmg if you aren’t using whip for a spammable just unexpected burst, it’s use as a spammable is much depreciated by the fact that it doesn’t hit all that hard outside of seething fury stacks, not to mention the mag cost. We won’t build seething fury stacks that much because ideally vclaw dmg ramps up and noxious isn’t meant to be spammed.
On PC NA alot of decent pvpers run tanky. Even in 1v1s good players will sometimes just stalemate out, or it drags for minutes. Ideally vclaw and noxious breath are refreshed every 14 seconds meaning that staying offensive is alot of using spammables, when not healing or buff upkeep.
The problem with going hybrid is that it often requires too much of a power loss. I tried it using NMA, dark elf, shacklebreaker. The issue was that the loss of wep dmg/ stam sustain to make up for the extra mag necessary simply wasn’t worth it. The only decent hybrid dk I’ve seen was drizzt d’liftin (something like that) from a few years back.1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Dswing simply hits as hard as a buffed flame lash, just higher cost not to mention the cc/snare.
D Swing is channeled though. How does Whip compare with Power Bash? Maybe about the same damage, but Whip is much better to weave, and has secondary effects. How does Whip compare with Heroic Slash? About the same for weaving, maybe Heroic Slash's secondary effects are better, but Whip has much more damage. That's fair right?
Yes dswing is casted… you can get better at landing it with practice, if that is the problem. Has been one of the best stam spammables for quite awhile now.
I’m presuming you are talking about power slam as the other morph obviously isn’t a spammable. Yes lash is a bit better than one of the worst spammables. Although both are about the same to weave.
Heroic Slash isn’t a spammable, so I’m not sure why 2 very different skills used in very different builds are being compared. Was nerfed out of spamming a few years back with the SnB tank focus patch.
Whip’s secondary effects are obtained at best 7 secs out of every 22. If you have a viable build post it. Explaining things in a vacuum not factoring build/skills at all is not helpful at all. But yes if your current build is weak, a whip build might be slightly less weak.
I've landed several quadrillion D Swings.
If the Dark Convergence meta doesn't drive home the value of an instant melee spammable over a channeled one I don't what will.
Seething Fury is a constant secondary effect. Heroic Slash was our "other spammable" after the change to Empower and before its damage nerf as you say. The idea of StamWhip is more to replace this loss than to replace D Swing. If you didn't play the class in the early years of this game then this point may be overlooked.
I think Whip is a substantially more elegant weave than Power Slam, though that one is kind of funny because it's like you're playing drums on your opponent. Considerations about animations are fairly subjective however - as are builds and overall skill arrays. I personally would never put Mech Acuity on a class with no bonus to Crit Damage, but this is completely subjective and has no right answer.
To clarify my biases about this skill and also to @JasonWangTaiwan - I want better access to Seething Fury more than I want to drop D Swing, so I'm ok with the Mag Cost versus possibly getting a Stam morph that doesn't have Seething Fury. That's reasonable no? 225 extra Weapon Damage is nothing to scoff at. More Weapon Damage for Leap, Whirlwind, Executioner, Brawler - way better than worrying about sustaining something I might need to hit once or twice when a target is above Execute. Like you guys are spamming the same skill 5 times in a row against a single opponent? Are you playing in 2019? Perhaps people on your server play more tanky than on mine.
Quite anecdotally and parochially - I played with Pelinal's on sDK for a few patches in BGs, back when the old Champion System meant that was a very bad choice for Champion Cyrodiil, strictly to combine Whip and Executioner in one build. There were glimmers of Power there, it was just never quite as good as running another 5 piece. I think that was before Seething Fury was added, but after Heroic Slash was nerfed.
Good for you.
Dcon won’t be meta next patch.
The nerf to heroic slash was a few years ago, I’m aware as you literally responded to me saying that. You probably adapted since then if you still play stamdk, but if you haven’t then this point may be overlooked.
I was more focused on power lash than molten for the reduced cost at least some of the time. The issue with molten whip is that while the seething fury stacks are great for overall dmg if you aren’t using whip for a spammable just unexpected burst, it’s use as a spammable is much depreciated by the fact that it doesn’t hit all that hard outside of seething fury stacks, not to mention the mag cost. We won’t build seething fury stacks that much because ideally vclaw dmg ramps up and noxious isn’t meant to be spammed.
On PC NA alot of decent pvpers run tanky. Even in 1v1s good players will sometimes just stalemate out, or it drags for minutes. Ideally vclaw and noxious breath are refreshed every 14 seconds meaning that staying offensive is alot of using spammables, when not healing or buff upkeep.
The problem with going hybrid is that it often requires too much of a power loss. I tried it using NMA, dark elf, shacklebreaker. The issue was that the loss of wep dmg/ stam sustain to make up for the extra mag necessary simply wasn’t worth it. The only decent hybrid dk I’ve seen was drizzt d’liftin (something like that) from a few years back.
Yeah you implied my issues with the cast time are that it's hard to land. I've been using D Swing or W Blow every single patch of this game on console. The cast time exposes you. You know that, we all know that.
You're not wrong about anything regarding the sustain issues. It's an obvious problem. But, if your damage is high enough, sustain, and healing, are both completely irrelevant.
I trust somebody else in these threads has an ounce of experience using Pelinal's and knows what was good and bad about it?
Edited by Urzigurumash on October 20, 2021 2:55AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Dswing simply hits as hard as a buffed flame lash, just higher cost not to mention the cc/snare.
D Swing is channeled though. How does Whip compare with Power Bash? Maybe about the same damage, but Whip is much better to weave, and has secondary effects. How does Whip compare with Heroic Slash? About the same for weaving, maybe Heroic Slash's secondary effects are better, but Whip has much more damage. That's fair right?
Yes dswing is casted… you can get better at landing it with practice, if that is the problem. Has been one of the best stam spammables for quite awhile now.
I’m presuming you are talking about power slam as the other morph obviously isn’t a spammable. Yes lash is a bit better than one of the worst spammables. Although both are about the same to weave.
Heroic Slash isn’t a spammable, so I’m not sure why 2 very different skills used in very different builds are being compared. Was nerfed out of spamming a few years back with the SnB tank focus patch.
Whip’s secondary effects are obtained at best 7 secs out of every 22. If you have a viable build post it. Explaining things in a vacuum not factoring build/skills at all is not helpful at all. But yes if your current build is weak, a whip build might be slightly less weak.
I've landed several quadrillion D Swings.
If the Dark Convergence meta doesn't drive home the value of an instant melee spammable over a channeled one I don't what will.
Seething Fury is a constant secondary effect. Heroic Slash was our "other spammable" after the change to Empower and before its damage nerf as you say. The idea of StamWhip is more to replace this loss than to replace D Swing. If you didn't play the class in the early years of this game then this point may be overlooked.
I think Whip is a substantially more elegant weave than Power Slam, though that one is kind of funny because it's like you're playing drums on your opponent. Considerations about animations are fairly subjective however - as are builds and overall skill arrays. I personally would never put Mech Acuity on a class with no bonus to Crit Damage, but this is completely subjective and has no right answer.
To clarify my biases about this skill and also to @JasonWangTaiwan - I want better access to Seething Fury more than I want to drop D Swing, so I'm ok with the Mag Cost versus possibly getting a Stam morph that doesn't have Seething Fury. That's reasonable no? 225 extra Weapon Damage is nothing to scoff at. More Weapon Damage for Leap, Whirlwind, Executioner, Brawler - way better than worrying about sustaining something I might need to hit once or twice when a target is above Execute. Like you guys are spamming the same skill 5 times in a row against a single opponent? Are you playing in 2019? Perhaps people on your server play more tanky than on mine.
Quite anecdotally and parochially - I played with Pelinal's on sDK for a few patches in BGs, back when the old Champion System meant that was a very bad choice for Champion Cyrodiil, strictly to combine Whip and Executioner in one build. There were glimmers of Power there, it was just never quite as good as running another 5 piece. I think that was before Seething Fury was added, but after Heroic Slash was nerfed.
Good for you.
Dcon won’t be meta next patch.
The nerf to heroic slash was a few years ago, I’m aware as you literally responded to me saying that. You probably adapted since then if you still play stamdk, but if you haven’t then this point may be overlooked.
I was more focused on power lash than molten for the reduced cost at least some of the time. The issue with molten whip is that while the seething fury stacks are great for overall dmg if you aren’t using whip for a spammable just unexpected burst, it’s use as a spammable is much depreciated by the fact that it doesn’t hit all that hard outside of seething fury stacks, not to mention the mag cost. We won’t build seething fury stacks that much because ideally vclaw dmg ramps up and noxious isn’t meant to be spammed.
On PC NA alot of decent pvpers run tanky. Even in 1v1s good players will sometimes just stalemate out, or it drags for minutes. Ideally vclaw and noxious breath are refreshed every 14 seconds meaning that staying offensive is alot of using spammables, when not healing or buff upkeep.
The problem with going hybrid is that it often requires too much of a power loss. I tried it using NMA, dark elf, shacklebreaker. The issue was that the loss of wep dmg/ stam sustain to make up for the extra mag necessary simply wasn’t worth it. The only decent hybrid dk I’ve seen was drizzt d’liftin (something like that) from a few years back.
Yeah you implied my issues with the cast time are that it's hard to land. I've been using D Swing or W Blow every single patch of this game on console. The cast time exposes you. You know that, we all know that.
You're not wrong about anything regarding the sustain issues. It's an obvious problem. But, if your damage is high enough, sustain, and healing, are both completely irrelevant.
I trust somebody else in these threads has an ounce of experience using Pelinal's and knows what was good and bad about it?
And there is a reason dswing is still the go to for most good all-around stamsorc, stamdk, stamcro and stamden builds.
… I guess the meta is wildly different on whatever server you play, because on PC NA that wouldn’t end up well, you’d kill potatoes and then die to the pvpers. I guess if you run max speed or sprint vamp invis you’d stand a chance.
… wut.
Okay how about we go back to talking about using whip on a stamdk in pvp.2 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Dswing simply hits as hard as a buffed flame lash, just higher cost not to mention the cc/snare.
D Swing is channeled though. How does Whip compare with Power Bash? Maybe about the same damage, but Whip is much better to weave, and has secondary effects. How does Whip compare with Heroic Slash? About the same for weaving, maybe Heroic Slash's secondary effects are better, but Whip has much more damage. That's fair right?
Yes dswing is casted… you can get better at landing it with practice, if that is the problem. Has been one of the best stam spammables for quite awhile now.
I’m presuming you are talking about power slam as the other morph obviously isn’t a spammable. Yes lash is a bit better than one of the worst spammables. Although both are about the same to weave.
Heroic Slash isn’t a spammable, so I’m not sure why 2 very different skills used in very different builds are being compared. Was nerfed out of spamming a few years back with the SnB tank focus patch.
Whip’s secondary effects are obtained at best 7 secs out of every 22. If you have a viable build post it. Explaining things in a vacuum not factoring build/skills at all is not helpful at all. But yes if your current build is weak, a whip build might be slightly less weak.
I've landed several quadrillion D Swings.
If the Dark Convergence meta doesn't drive home the value of an instant melee spammable over a channeled one I don't what will.
Seething Fury is a constant secondary effect. Heroic Slash was our "other spammable" after the change to Empower and before its damage nerf as you say. The idea of StamWhip is more to replace this loss than to replace D Swing. If you didn't play the class in the early years of this game then this point may be overlooked.
I think Whip is a substantially more elegant weave than Power Slam, though that one is kind of funny because it's like you're playing drums on your opponent. Considerations about animations are fairly subjective however - as are builds and overall skill arrays. I personally would never put Mech Acuity on a class with no bonus to Crit Damage, but this is completely subjective and has no right answer.
To clarify my biases about this skill and also to @JasonWangTaiwan - I want better access to Seething Fury more than I want to drop D Swing, so I'm ok with the Mag Cost versus possibly getting a Stam morph that doesn't have Seething Fury. That's reasonable no? 225 extra Weapon Damage is nothing to scoff at. More Weapon Damage for Leap, Whirlwind, Executioner, Brawler - way better than worrying about sustaining something I might need to hit once or twice when a target is above Execute. Like you guys are spamming the same skill 5 times in a row against a single opponent? Are you playing in 2019? Perhaps people on your server play more tanky than on mine.
Quite anecdotally and parochially - I played with Pelinal's on sDK for a few patches in BGs, back when the old Champion System meant that was a very bad choice for Champion Cyrodiil, strictly to combine Whip and Executioner in one build. There were glimmers of Power there, it was just never quite as good as running another 5 piece. I think that was before Seething Fury was added, but after Heroic Slash was nerfed.
Good for you.
Dcon won’t be meta next patch.
The nerf to heroic slash was a few years ago, I’m aware as you literally responded to me saying that. You probably adapted since then if you still play stamdk, but if you haven’t then this point may be overlooked.
I was more focused on power lash than molten for the reduced cost at least some of the time. The issue with molten whip is that while the seething fury stacks are great for overall dmg if you aren’t using whip for a spammable just unexpected burst, it’s use as a spammable is much depreciated by the fact that it doesn’t hit all that hard outside of seething fury stacks, not to mention the mag cost. We won’t build seething fury stacks that much because ideally vclaw dmg ramps up and noxious isn’t meant to be spammed.
On PC NA alot of decent pvpers run tanky. Even in 1v1s good players will sometimes just stalemate out, or it drags for minutes. Ideally vclaw and noxious breath are refreshed every 14 seconds meaning that staying offensive is alot of using spammables, when not healing or buff upkeep.
The problem with going hybrid is that it often requires too much of a power loss. I tried it using NMA, dark elf, shacklebreaker. The issue was that the loss of wep dmg/ stam sustain to make up for the extra mag necessary simply wasn’t worth it. The only decent hybrid dk I’ve seen was drizzt d’liftin (something like that) from a few years back.
Yeah you implied my issues with the cast time are that it's hard to land. I've been using D Swing or W Blow every single patch of this game on console. The cast time exposes you. You know that, we all know that.
You're not wrong about anything regarding the sustain issues. It's an obvious problem. But, if your damage is high enough, sustain, and healing, are both completely irrelevant.
I trust somebody else in these threads has an ounce of experience using Pelinal's and knows what was good and bad about it?
And there is a reason dswing is still the go to for most good all-around stamsorc, stamdk, stamcro and stamden builds.
… I guess the meta is wildly different on whatever server you play, because on PC NA that wouldn’t end up well, you’d kill potatoes and then die to the pvpers. I guess if you run max speed or sprint vamp invis you’d stand a chance.
… wut.
Okay how about we go back to talking about using whip on a stamdk in pvp.
I play on Xbox NA. The metas must be quite different because nobody is standing around spamming single target abilities on each other for 20 minutes on Xbox NA anymore, that is thankfully a thing of the past.
Whip doesn't replace D Swing, and it's not supposed to. It replaces the memory of a Heroic Slash which did appreciable damage. D Swing will not be dropped. Few of us have been running Slash for years, if we have it's mostly for the Heroism, but many of us have been running a stun of some sort on the SnB bar. Likely for many of us who mostly run 2h/SnB, we will choose to drop this stun and replace it with Whip, leaving D Swing and Leap as our only stuns. Maybe not, but that's my expectation.
Wearing Pelinal's any time from its introduction in Dark Brotherhood to its recent rework was like travelling into the future and seeing what this Mag-Weapon Damage-Whip would be like, more or less. Except it still scaled off Max Mag, and you lost a 5 piece set bonus strictly for the sort of scaling that Whip will soon have on live.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Daffen✭✭✭✭This will breathe life in old stamdk players, who used to play SnB frontbar, too bad we all playing some other game.
This is from a couple days of testing only:
With the excact same setup i use on live (pariah, powerful assault/clever, bloodspawn); I was able to change from dizzy swing to whip as main spammable with the SnB beeing my frontbar. The healing whip can easily be procced by using immobilizing poisons and snb stun which weaves nicely. The damage from the procced whip is the same as dizzy swing + 500-900 damage from bash which results in an overall dps increase (no cast time, increased bash damage). Mag sustain when spamming the procced whip is not a problem as long as you dont spam frag shield or unprocced whip. Ive been used to play with 0 extra mag sustain on live other than CP (sustained by suffering, 660 mag rec) no pots or enchants. The only change i had to do was swap from cc immunity pots to tri-pots to be able to sustain just fine. Bar space became a problem as i was not able to slot all desired abilities (major prot).
Tankiness while kiting is slightly worse than with typical dizzy swing setup as there is not enough space for major protection, however the healing from the procced whip makes you near immortal while on the offense.3 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Dswing simply hits as hard as a buffed flame lash, just higher cost not to mention the cc/snare.
D Swing is channeled though. How does Whip compare with Power Bash? Maybe about the same damage, but Whip is much better to weave, and has secondary effects. How does Whip compare with Heroic Slash? About the same for weaving, maybe Heroic Slash's secondary effects are better, but Whip has much more damage. That's fair right?
Yes dswing is casted… you can get better at landing it with practice, if that is the problem. Has been one of the best stam spammables for quite awhile now.
I’m presuming you are talking about power slam as the other morph obviously isn’t a spammable. Yes lash is a bit better than one of the worst spammables. Although both are about the same to weave.
Heroic Slash isn’t a spammable, so I’m not sure why 2 very different skills used in very different builds are being compared. Was nerfed out of spamming a few years back with the SnB tank focus patch.
Whip’s secondary effects are obtained at best 7 secs out of every 22. If you have a viable build post it. Explaining things in a vacuum not factoring build/skills at all is not helpful at all. But yes if your current build is weak, a whip build might be slightly less weak.
I've landed several quadrillion D Swings.
If the Dark Convergence meta doesn't drive home the value of an instant melee spammable over a channeled one I don't what will.
Seething Fury is a constant secondary effect. Heroic Slash was our "other spammable" after the change to Empower and before its damage nerf as you say. The idea of StamWhip is more to replace this loss than to replace D Swing. If you didn't play the class in the early years of this game then this point may be overlooked.
I think Whip is a substantially more elegant weave than Power Slam, though that one is kind of funny because it's like you're playing drums on your opponent. Considerations about animations are fairly subjective however - as are builds and overall skill arrays. I personally would never put Mech Acuity on a class with no bonus to Crit Damage, but this is completely subjective and has no right answer.
To clarify my biases about this skill and also to @JasonWangTaiwan - I want better access to Seething Fury more than I want to drop D Swing, so I'm ok with the Mag Cost versus possibly getting a Stam morph that doesn't have Seething Fury. That's reasonable no? 225 extra Weapon Damage is nothing to scoff at. More Weapon Damage for Leap, Whirlwind, Executioner, Brawler - way better than worrying about sustaining something I might need to hit once or twice when a target is above Execute. Like you guys are spamming the same skill 5 times in a row against a single opponent? Are you playing in 2019? Perhaps people on your server play more tanky than on mine.
Quite anecdotally and parochially - I played with Pelinal's on sDK for a few patches in BGs, back when the old Champion System meant that was a very bad choice for Champion Cyrodiil, strictly to combine Whip and Executioner in one build. There were glimmers of Power there, it was just never quite as good as running another 5 piece. I think that was before Seething Fury was added, but after Heroic Slash was nerfed.
Good for you.
Dcon won’t be meta next patch.
The nerf to heroic slash was a few years ago, I’m aware as you literally responded to me saying that. You probably adapted since then if you still play stamdk, but if you haven’t then this point may be overlooked.
I was more focused on power lash than molten for the reduced cost at least some of the time. The issue with molten whip is that while the seething fury stacks are great for overall dmg if you aren’t using whip for a spammable just unexpected burst, it’s use as a spammable is much depreciated by the fact that it doesn’t hit all that hard outside of seething fury stacks, not to mention the mag cost. We won’t build seething fury stacks that much because ideally vclaw dmg ramps up and noxious isn’t meant to be spammed.
On PC NA alot of decent pvpers run tanky. Even in 1v1s good players will sometimes just stalemate out, or it drags for minutes. Ideally vclaw and noxious breath are refreshed every 14 seconds meaning that staying offensive is alot of using spammables, when not healing or buff upkeep.
The problem with going hybrid is that it often requires too much of a power loss. I tried it using NMA, dark elf, shacklebreaker. The issue was that the loss of wep dmg/ stam sustain to make up for the extra mag necessary simply wasn’t worth it. The only decent hybrid dk I’ve seen was drizzt d’liftin (something like that) from a few years back.
Yeah you implied my issues with the cast time are that it's hard to land. I've been using D Swing or W Blow every single patch of this game on console. The cast time exposes you. You know that, we all know that.
You're not wrong about anything regarding the sustain issues. It's an obvious problem. But, if your damage is high enough, sustain, and healing, are both completely irrelevant.
I trust somebody else in these threads has an ounce of experience using Pelinal's and knows what was good and bad about it?
And there is a reason dswing is still the go to for most good all-around stamsorc, stamdk, stamcro and stamden builds.
… I guess the meta is wildly different on whatever server you play, because on PC NA that wouldn’t end up well, you’d kill potatoes and then die to the pvpers. I guess if you run max speed or sprint vamp invis you’d stand a chance.
… wut.
Okay how about we go back to talking about using whip on a stamdk in pvp.
I play on Xbox NA. The metas must be quite different because nobody is standing around spamming single target abilities on each other for 20 minutes on Xbox NA anymore, that is thankfully a thing of the past.
Whip doesn't replace D Swing, and it's not supposed to. It replaces the memory of a Heroic Slash which did appreciable damage. D Swing will not be dropped. Few of us have been running Slash for years, if we have it's mostly for the Heroism, but many of us have been running a stun of some sort on the SnB bar. Likely for many of us who mostly run 2h/SnB, we will choose to drop this stun and replace it with Whip, leaving D Swing and Leap as our only stuns. Maybe not, but that's my expectation.
Wearing Pelinal's any time from its introduction in Dark Brotherhood to its recent rework was like travelling into the future and seeing what this Mag-Weapon Damage-Whip would be like, more or less. Except it still scaled off Max Mag, and you lost a 5 piece set bonus strictly for the sort of scaling that Whip will soon have on live.
What exactly is your problem? Chill.
Okay then show your build using whip. The problem is again what do you have to give up in order to build around whip. You are kind of just listing random skill combos without any build or "rotation". You're not refuting any actual build issues and just strawmanning very specific issues.
As I said earlier, "the issue with molten whip is that while the seething fury stacks are great for overall dmg if you aren’t using whip for a spammable just unexpected burst, it’s use as a spammable is much depreciated by the fact that it doesn’t hit all that hard outside of seething fury stacks, not to mention the mag cost. We won’t build seething fury stacks that much because ideally vclaw dmg ramps up and noxious isn’t meant to be spammed".
Again so you're combo is what exactly? List all skills and build.2 -
Tiphis✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Dswing simply hits as hard as a buffed flame lash, just higher cost not to mention the cc/snare.
D Swing is channeled though. How does Whip compare with Power Bash? Maybe about the same damage, but Whip is much better to weave, and has secondary effects. How does Whip compare with Heroic Slash? About the same for weaving, maybe Heroic Slash's secondary effects are better, but Whip has much more damage. That's fair right?
Yes dswing is casted… you can get better at landing it with practice, if that is the problem. Has been one of the best stam spammables for quite awhile now.
I’m presuming you are talking about power slam as the other morph obviously isn’t a spammable. Yes lash is a bit better than one of the worst spammables. Although both are about the same to weave.
Heroic Slash isn’t a spammable, so I’m not sure why 2 very different skills used in very different builds are being compared. Was nerfed out of spamming a few years back with the SnB tank focus patch.
Whip’s secondary effects are obtained at best 7 secs out of every 22. If you have a viable build post it. Explaining things in a vacuum not factoring build/skills at all is not helpful at all. But yes if your current build is weak, a whip build might be slightly less weak.
I've landed several quadrillion D Swings.
If the Dark Convergence meta doesn't drive home the value of an instant melee spammable over a channeled one I don't what will.
Seething Fury is a constant secondary effect. Heroic Slash was our "other spammable" after the change to Empower and before its damage nerf as you say. The idea of StamWhip is more to replace this loss than to replace D Swing. If you didn't play the class in the early years of this game then this point may be overlooked.
I think Whip is a substantially more elegant weave than Power Slam, though that one is kind of funny because it's like you're playing drums on your opponent. Considerations about animations are fairly subjective however - as are builds and overall skill arrays. I personally would never put Mech Acuity on a class with no bonus to Crit Damage, but this is completely subjective and has no right answer.
To clarify my biases about this skill and also to @JasonWangTaiwan - I want better access to Seething Fury more than I want to drop D Swing, so I'm ok with the Mag Cost versus possibly getting a Stam morph that doesn't have Seething Fury. That's reasonable no? 225 extra Weapon Damage is nothing to scoff at. More Weapon Damage for Leap, Whirlwind, Executioner, Brawler - way better than worrying about sustaining something I might need to hit once or twice when a target is above Execute. Like you guys are spamming the same skill 5 times in a row against a single opponent? Are you playing in 2019? Perhaps people on your server play more tanky than on mine.
Quite anecdotally and parochially - I played with Pelinal's on sDK for a few patches in BGs, back when the old Champion System meant that was a very bad choice for Champion Cyrodiil, strictly to combine Whip and Executioner in one build. There were glimmers of Power there, it was just never quite as good as running another 5 piece. I think that was before Seething Fury was added, but after Heroic Slash was nerfed.
Good for you.
Dcon won’t be meta next patch.
The nerf to heroic slash was a few years ago, I’m aware as you literally responded to me saying that. You probably adapted since then if you still play stamdk, but if you haven’t then this point may be overlooked.
I was more focused on power lash than molten for the reduced cost at least some of the time. The issue with molten whip is that while the seething fury stacks are great for overall dmg if you aren’t using whip for a spammable just unexpected burst, it’s use as a spammable is much depreciated by the fact that it doesn’t hit all that hard outside of seething fury stacks, not to mention the mag cost. We won’t build seething fury stacks that much because ideally vclaw dmg ramps up and noxious isn’t meant to be spammed.
On PC NA alot of decent pvpers run tanky. Even in 1v1s good players will sometimes just stalemate out, or it drags for minutes. Ideally vclaw and noxious breath are refreshed every 14 seconds meaning that staying offensive is alot of using spammables, when not healing or buff upkeep.
The problem with going hybrid is that it often requires too much of a power loss. I tried it using NMA, dark elf, shacklebreaker. The issue was that the loss of wep dmg/ stam sustain to make up for the extra mag necessary simply wasn’t worth it. The only decent hybrid dk I’ve seen was drizzt d’liftin (something like that) from a few years back.
Yeah you implied my issues with the cast time are that it's hard to land. I've been using D Swing or W Blow every single patch of this game on console. The cast time exposes you. You know that, we all know that.
You're not wrong about anything regarding the sustain issues. It's an obvious problem. But, if your damage is high enough, sustain, and healing, are both completely irrelevant.
I trust somebody else in these threads has an ounce of experience using Pelinal's and knows what was good and bad about it?
And there is a reason dswing is still the go to for most good all-around stamsorc, stamdk, stamcro and stamden builds.
… I guess the meta is wildly different on whatever server you play, because on PC NA that wouldn’t end up well, you’d kill potatoes and then die to the pvpers. I guess if you run max speed or sprint vamp invis you’d stand a chance.
… wut.
Okay how about we go back to talking about using whip on a stamdk in pvp.
I play on Xbox NA. The metas must be quite different because nobody is standing around spamming single target abilities on each other for 20 minutes on Xbox NA anymore, that is thankfully a thing of the past.
Wait you mean you kill actual pvpers with a single vclaw, single noxious breath, single dswing single executioner combo? Man that's amazing, haven't fought an actual good pvper and been able to kill them easily for I don't know how many years.2 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭This will breathe life in old stamdk players, who used to play SnB frontbar, too bad we all playing some other game.
This is from a couple days of testing only:
With the excact same setup i use on live (pariah, powerful assault/clever, bloodspawn); I was able to change from dizzy swing to whip as main spammable with the SnB beeing my frontbar. The healing whip can easily be procced by using immobilizing poisons and snb stun which weaves nicely. The damage from the procced whip is the same as dizzy swing + 500-900 damage from bash which results in an overall dps increase (no cast time, increased bash damage). Mag sustain when spamming the procced whip is not a problem as long as you dont spam frag shield or unprocced whip. Ive been used to play with 0 extra mag sustain on live other than CP (sustained by suffering, 660 mag rec) no pots or enchants. The only change i had to do was swap from cc immunity pots to tri-pots to be able to sustain just fine. Bar space became a problem as i was not able to slot all desired abilities (major prot).
Tankiness while kiting is slightly worse than with typical dizzy swing setup as there is not enough space for major protection, however the healing from the procced whip makes you near immortal while on the offense.
What is your "rotation" outside lash off balance though, the other 15/22 secs. Immob poisons are always nice but can be somewhat unreliable curtesy of the 20% proc chance and chance the enemy dodges after the root, or has snare/root immunity going in which case the poison is negated. We have no real other source of immob discounting the 1 whip landing during fossilize root.1 -
Daffen✭✭✭✭This will breathe life in old stamdk players, who used to play SnB frontbar, too bad we all playing some other game.
This is from a couple days of testing only:
With the excact same setup i use on live (pariah, powerful assault/clever, bloodspawn); I was able to change from dizzy swing to whip as main spammable with the SnB beeing my frontbar. The healing whip can easily be procced by using immobilizing poisons and snb stun which weaves nicely. The damage from the procced whip is the same as dizzy swing + 500-900 damage from bash which results in an overall dps increase (no cast time, increased bash damage). Mag sustain when spamming the procced whip is not a problem as long as you dont spam frag shield or unprocced whip. Ive been used to play with 0 extra mag sustain on live other than CP (sustained by suffering, 660 mag rec) no pots or enchants. The only change i had to do was swap from cc immunity pots to tri-pots to be able to sustain just fine. Bar space became a problem as i was not able to slot all desired abilities (major prot).
Tankiness while kiting is slightly worse than with typical dizzy swing setup as there is not enough space for major protection, however the healing from the procced whip makes you near immortal while on the offense.
What is your "rotation" outside lash off balance though, the other 15/22 secs. Immob poisons are always nice but can be somewhat unreliable curtesy of the 20% proc chance and chance the enemy dodges after the root, or has snare/root immunity going in which case the poison is negated. We have no real other source of immob discounting the 1 whip landing during fossilize root.
I started testing with only reverb bash as my source for off balance, however it was obvious that people would break free before you hit them with the whip. The reason the immobilize poison is good is because it has 20% chance on light attacks, weapon abilities and the most recent change: bash. So you light attack, reverb, bash cancel, light attack whip which gives 4 opportunities to proc poison. This gives you a 59% chance to proc it.
As for rotation, there is never one. Only combos for killing: usually just keep dots up and wait for opportunity. Best way is to not follow a rhythm of when you are going offensive. To catch them off-guard. Usually it is: refresh dots, corrosive, vigor (depends), reverb and whip till dead, if i proc poison early i might whip a couple times before stunning. It depends alot.
The other 15 seconds is spent accordingly: after ur combo they will recover and start to go offensive, which also usually lasts 7-10 seconds where you are only defensive. Then you spend a couple seconds to recover and go for another combo.
If i was unlucky and did not proc off-balance in my offensive window, i know for a fact that i can outdamage their offensive window. Because the burst heal from my whip and their frontbar is squishier than their backbar. (always vigor before this) Get a couple hits in because they wont expect it and then stun them to turn it around.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wait you mean you kill actual pvpers with a single vclaw, single noxious breath, single dswing single executioner combo? Man that's amazing, haven't fought an actual good pvper and been able to kill them easily for I don't know how many years.
Don't take my word for it - look at this past month's StamDK videos on YouTube and see how many times they hit their spammables per target, how many times per Leap, per Potion, etc. It seems most PvP clips are one of the two Consoles? Perhaps there really is a big difference in TTK between PC and Consoles, I don't know.What exactly is your problem? Chill.
Okay then show your build using whip. The problem is again what do you have to give up in order to build around whip. You are kind of just listing random skill combos without any build or "rotation". You're not refuting any actual build issues and just strawmanning very specific issues.
As I said earlier, "the issue with molten whip is that while the seething fury stacks are great for overall dmg if you aren’t using whip for a spammable just unexpected burst, it’s use as a spammable is much depreciated by the fact that it doesn’t hit all that hard outside of seething fury stacks, not to mention the mag cost. We won’t build seething fury stacks that much because ideally vclaw dmg ramps up and noxious isn’t meant to be spammed".
Again so you're combo is what exactly? List all skills and build.
Telling an Orc he needs to learn to land his D Swings is the complete opposite of being chill. That was not at all the point I was trying to make. So let's start over - the only point of yours I meant to refute is that we shouldn't compare Channeled Skills with Instant Skills, because there's a big mechanical difference.
Otherwise I trust your point about Molten Whip and Seething Fury is accurate, but, does that necessarily mean any build using Molten Whip in this intermittent way has no advantages over a build which doesn't use it?
Just because something is spam-able doesn't mean it should only be slotted for repeated spamming. I would prefer both the cast time and the tooltip for D Swing were increased so that it was more of a "combo component" as it was up until 2019 or whenever the knockback was removed and the cast time was reduced.
Build is irrelevant, rotations are irrelevant, like you said about testing we're all experienced enough to contextualize ideas so that we don't need to describe every detail. In general I just stack Weapon Damage, nothing new or interesting.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Vizirith✭✭✭✭This will breathe life in old stamdk players, who used to play SnB frontbar, too bad we all playing some other game.
This is from a couple days of testing only:
With the excact same setup i use on live (pariah, powerful assault/clever, bloodspawn); I was able to change from dizzy swing to whip as main spammable with the SnB beeing my frontbar. The healing whip can easily be procced by using immobilizing poisons and snb stun which weaves nicely. The damage from the procced whip is the same as dizzy swing + 500-900 damage from bash which results in an overall dps increase (no cast time, increased bash damage). Mag sustain when spamming the procced whip is not a problem as long as you dont spam frag shield or unprocced whip. Ive been used to play with 0 extra mag sustain on live other than CP (sustained by suffering, 660 mag rec) no pots or enchants. The only change i had to do was swap from cc immunity pots to tri-pots to be able to sustain just fine. Bar space became a problem as i was not able to slot all desired abilities (major prot).
Tankiness while kiting is slightly worse than with typical dizzy swing setup as there is not enough space for major protection, however the healing from the procced whip makes you near immortal while on the offense.
What is your "rotation" outside lash off balance though, the other 15/22 secs. Immob poisons are always nice but can be somewhat unreliable curtesy of the 20% proc chance and chance the enemy dodges after the root, or has snare/root immunity going in which case the poison is negated. We have no real other source of immob discounting the 1 whip landing during fossilize root.
I started testing with only reverb bash as my source for off balance, however it was obvious that people would break free before you hit them with the whip. The reason the immobilize poison is good is because it has 20% chance on light attacks, weapon abilities and the most recent change: bash. So you light attack, reverb, bash cancel, light attack whip which gives 4 opportunities to proc poison. This gives you a 59% chance to proc it.
As for rotation, there is never one. Only combos for killing: usually just keep dots up and wait for opportunity. Best way is to not follow a rhythm of when you are going offensive. To catch them off-guard. Usually it is: refresh dots, corrosive, vigor (depends), reverb and whip till dead, if i proc poison early i might whip a couple times before stunning. It depends alot.
The other 15 seconds is spent accordingly: after ur combo they will recover and start to go offensive, which also usually lasts 7-10 seconds where you are only defensive. Then you spend a couple seconds to recover and go for another combo.
If i was unlucky and did not proc off-balance in my offensive window, i know for a fact that i can outdamage their offensive window. Because the burst heal from my whip and their frontbar is squishier than their backbar. (always vigor before this) Get a couple hits in because they wont expect it and then stun them to turn it around.
My issues with waiting for the dot dmg is that against classes that can cleanse your dps falls away rapidly. I've ran basically the same bar setup just without whip and found that I could kill lesser players well but then really struggled against people with healers/solid survivability even with plaguebreak against cleanse.Urzigurumash wrote: »Wait you mean you kill actual pvpers with a single vclaw, single noxious breath, single dswing single executioner combo? Man that's amazing, haven't fought an actual good pvper and been able to kill them easily for I don't know how many years.
Don't take my word for it - look at this past month's StamDK videos on YouTube and see how many times they hit their spammables per target, how many times per Leap, per Potion, etc. It seems most PvP clips are one of the two Consoles? Perhaps there really is a big difference in TTK between PC and Consoles, I don't know.What exactly is your problem? Chill.
Okay then show your build using whip. The problem is again what do you have to give up in order to build around whip. You are kind of just listing random skill combos without any build or "rotation". You're not refuting any actual build issues and just strawmanning very specific issues.
As I said earlier, "the issue with molten whip is that while the seething fury stacks are great for overall dmg if you aren’t using whip for a spammable just unexpected burst, it’s use as a spammable is much depreciated by the fact that it doesn’t hit all that hard outside of seething fury stacks, not to mention the mag cost. We won’t build seething fury stacks that much because ideally vclaw dmg ramps up and noxious isn’t meant to be spammed".
Again so you're combo is what exactly? List all skills and build.
Telling an Orc he needs to learn to land his D Swings is the complete opposite of being chill. That was not at all the point I was trying to make. So let's start over - the only point of yours I meant to refute is that we shouldn't compare Channeled Skills with Instant Skills, because there's a big mechanical difference.
Otherwise I trust your point about Molten Whip and Seething Fury is accurate, but, does that necessarily mean any build using Molten Whip in this intermittent way has no advantages over a build which doesn't use it?
Just because something is spam-able doesn't mean it should only be slotted for repeated spamming. I would prefer both the cast time and the tooltip for D Swing were increased so that it was more of a "combo component" as it was up until 2019 or whenever the knockback was removed and the cast time was reduced.
Build is irrelevant, rotations are irrelevant, like you said about testing we're all experienced enough to contextualize ideas so that we don't need to describe every detail. In general I just stack Weapon Damage, nothing new or interesting.
Just to jump on the reply to Tiphs real quick, 1vx videos often are with less skilled players and will be a much harder fight against skilled pvpers. Isthereno1else said it best: "you can't 1vx yourself" (or players of your equal skill/build).
I just don't know if the sacrifice is worth it. Lash is used best in the aforementioned post by Daffen, but the issue with whip is that there's no cost reduction like lash, and can be building seething fury stacks. You dot somebody up with claw and breath, then have to either use one of those again if you bb cauterize or don't have it, or use FOO fb. Now you can use it for 3 stack whip, but they heal up. Do you use claw, breath and FOO again?
It would work great if you can just breath>claw>FOO>cc>3 stack whip and they die. But healers/solid survival would put a quite a dent in your sustain, even with the new buffs to it.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just to jump on the reply to Tiphs real quick, 1vx videos often are with less skilled players and will be a much harder fight against skilled pvpers. Isthereno1else said it best: "you can't 1vx yourself" (or players of your equal skill/build).
I just don't know if the sacrifice is worth it. Lash is used best in the aforementioned post by Daffen, but the issue with whip is that there's no cost reduction like lash, and can be building seething fury stacks. You dot somebody up with claw and breath, then have to either use one of those again if you bb cauterize or don't have it, or use FOO fb. Now you can use it for 3 stack whip, but they heal up. Do you use claw, breath and FOO again?
It would work great if you can just breath>claw>FOO>cc>3 stack whip and they die. But healers/solid survival would put a quite a dent in your sustain, even with the new buffs to it.
True about the 1vX videos - but, best available information.
Whatever the limitations of Seething Fury:
Does access to both morphs of Whip give StamDK a unique advantage over a Power Slam Necro?
What advantage would a StamWhip with no secondary effects give StamDK over a Power Slam Necro?
Is there any skill in this game which has Dynamic Resource Cost?Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you're about to say - how is a Power Slam Necro relevant - just wait a few weeks? I could be wrong, but it's looking strong.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0