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I don't know whether I've ever seen a single set as mechanically toxic as Dark Convergence

taugrim
taugrim
✭✭✭
For perspective, I make that statement in the subject line after 15 years of playing MMORPGs and PVP in particular. And it's a long list of games.

Anyone who has played more than a handful of BGs the past several weeks can attest to what a bad experience it is playing with DCs procs going off regularly throughout a BG.

The problem with DC is it's faceroll easy to be effective with it, because it creates a 3-4 second window where
1. the affected players get pulled, which is disruptive in itself. Plus they get stunned and snared
2. the affected players have to stop whatever they're doing to get out of it, due to the proc's damage and other incoming enemy damage
3. the allies of the caster can free DPS on the affected targets or have a significant window to recover

Abilities or procs that AOE pull multiple targets are powerful in and of themselves. But to throw on any meaningful damage on top of that is simply unneeded. Back in WAR, the Magus / Engineer mirror class had an AOE pull. But it did no meaningful damage in itself, because that wasn't needed.

I just logged off after 2 consecutive BGs where a premade (from my guild) was using DC and wiping opposing teams, despite facing PUGs they would have easily beat. I was solo queued, and I watched multiple players in both games leave the BGs. I don't blame them. I don't blame my guild, either, since they don't control the game content. There is only 1 entity that is capable of fixing the problem, but it's taking way too long IMO.

I struggle to understand why it has not been patched yet. This is such a bad time to have such a frustrating PVP experience, especially when players are wondering whether the grass is greener in the other new game that has a combat style that is most similar to ESO, relative to other MMORPGs. I have been a diehard loyalist and advocate of ESO (and up until this morning was not meaningfully considering trying out the other option), but even I have my limits.

P.S. I absolutely love ESO's combat and build system. I just despise mechanically toxic sets. And it's immensely frustrating to watch this persist for 6 weeks.
Edited by taugrim on October 12, 2021 4:18AM
PC | NA | CP 12XX
• 50 Nord Stamina Warden - Taugrim the Warden (main)
• 50 Nord Stamina Nightblade - Taugrim the Nightblade (main alt) - still noob with this class, never played a "rogue" archetype in any game, but it's so well implemented in ESO
• 50 Nord Stamina Dragonknight - Taugrim the Dragonknight (shelved)
• 50 Orc Stamina Sorceror - Taugrim the Sorceror (shelved)
• 50 High Elf Magicka Templar - Taugrim the Templar (shelved)

Addons Authored
Armorskull: Resistance Meter (Physical and Spell)
  • taugrim
    taugrim
    ✭✭✭
    Faction stacks are still unstoppable, and proper ballgroups are still unkillable.

    In most games, this is true, and it's even moreso true in games where any player can meaningfully heal themselves, which is the case with ESO.

    The last game I played where a skilled, coordinated group could wipe 4 times their number was Warhammer Online (WAR). But that was because only some classes / builds could meaningfully self-heal. So if you took out the healers the rest would die to coordinated AOE.

    So in ESO, it's a hard problem to solve. Some games (IIRC WAR) put a buff on the losing World PVP faction. Many games try the 3-faction thing, which helps to a degree, but not when the faction zergs are avoiding one another.
    Edited by taugrim on October 10, 2021 4:42PM
    PC | NA | CP 12XX
    • 50 Nord Stamina Warden - Taugrim the Warden (main)
    • 50 Nord Stamina Nightblade - Taugrim the Nightblade (main alt) - still noob with this class, never played a "rogue" archetype in any game, but it's so well implemented in ESO
    • 50 Nord Stamina Dragonknight - Taugrim the Dragonknight (shelved)
    • 50 Orc Stamina Sorceror - Taugrim the Sorceror (shelved)
    • 50 High Elf Magicka Templar - Taugrim the Templar (shelved)

    Addons Authored
    Armorskull: Resistance Meter (Physical and Spell)
  • taugrim
    taugrim
    ✭✭✭
    I'm waiting for the next feature update when they nerf it, ain't gonna PvP until then.

    I think there are a meaningful number of people doing the same as you.

    It's part of the active PVP population drain we're seeing over recent weeks.
    PC | NA | CP 12XX
    • 50 Nord Stamina Warden - Taugrim the Warden (main)
    • 50 Nord Stamina Nightblade - Taugrim the Nightblade (main alt) - still noob with this class, never played a "rogue" archetype in any game, but it's so well implemented in ESO
    • 50 Nord Stamina Dragonknight - Taugrim the Dragonknight (shelved)
    • 50 Orc Stamina Sorceror - Taugrim the Sorceror (shelved)
    • 50 High Elf Magicka Templar - Taugrim the Templar (shelved)

    Addons Authored
    Armorskull: Resistance Meter (Physical and Spell)
  • xylena_lazarow
    xylena_lazarow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    taugrim wrote: »
    In most games, this is true, and it's even moreso true in games where any player can meaningfully heal themselves, which is the case with ESO.
    After 7+ years of power creep, stacking healing simply breaks PvP. It wasn't always this bad.
    PC/NA || CP Cyro Stam || RIP 2014 SDK
  • Dojohoda
    Dojohoda
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I hate the set. I took a sniper into cyrodiil yesterday. DC users need to get range-ganked. Fight dirty.
    Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
    Might be joking in comments.
  • LarsS
    LarsS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is the the non-proc campaign. :)
    GM for The Daggerfall Authority EU PC
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    this thread has a toxic taste that is unfair and just plain not the truth of how the majority of eso pvp players feel.
    reading the comments and the thread title gives the impression that anyone using the set needs to be ashamed and feel bad, but that is just not the truth seen in pvp and pvp zone chat as well as the guilds im a member of.
    theres nothing wrong with using this set in both pvp and pve.
    the set was made because we asked for help to stop zergs and hoards of people blobbing together, the set works good and doing its job.
    the set was made to stop zergs and huge groups that are cause massive lagg, high ping, and destroying the pvp in cryodiil.
    the set needs buffed, not nerfed.
    it needs to stay.

    Absolute Best design ever made, Especially for an mmo that has horrible ball zerg groups like eso.
    its perfect for fighting the zergs here in eso.

    the dark convergence set needs to be buffed in damage as well as Grab ability to zergs to be stronger as we can see that many zergs are escaping it. they simply run through its grab somehow and that needs to be buffed to make sure it keeps working as was intended and spoken about it the patch notes.

    is it possible that the only people angry about this set are the ones in zergs and large groups that it is intended for?
    i dont know, but i can assure you that it does what we asked for when it works as it should.


    and again my comments and feedback here is only just that, my feedback, not intended to anger anyone.

    Edited by Gilvoth on October 10, 2021 6:25PM
    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement. and by the way, im sure someone wont like my wishes, or disagree with my wishes, all i can say to that is:
    i have no interest in debating i dont care i just giving my honest feedback.
  • taugrim
    taugrim
    ✭✭✭
    taugrim wrote: »
    In most games, this is true, and it's even moreso true in games where any player can meaningfully heal themselves, which is the case with ESO.
    After 7+ years of power creep, stacking healing simply breaks PvP. It wasn't always this bad.

    They could limit healing in AOE situations.

    I understand that would require computations, and the servers seem to struggle with it.
    PC | NA | CP 12XX
    • 50 Nord Stamina Warden - Taugrim the Warden (main)
    • 50 Nord Stamina Nightblade - Taugrim the Nightblade (main alt) - still noob with this class, never played a "rogue" archetype in any game, but it's so well implemented in ESO
    • 50 Nord Stamina Dragonknight - Taugrim the Dragonknight (shelved)
    • 50 Orc Stamina Sorceror - Taugrim the Sorceror (shelved)
    • 50 High Elf Magicka Templar - Taugrim the Templar (shelved)

    Addons Authored
    Armorskull: Resistance Meter (Physical and Spell)
  • taugrim
    taugrim
    ✭✭✭
    LarsS wrote: »
    There is the the non-proc campaign. :)

    Doesn't help for folks who enjoy BGs.
    PC | NA | CP 12XX
    • 50 Nord Stamina Warden - Taugrim the Warden (main)
    • 50 Nord Stamina Nightblade - Taugrim the Nightblade (main alt) - still noob with this class, never played a "rogue" archetype in any game, but it's so well implemented in ESO
    • 50 Nord Stamina Dragonknight - Taugrim the Dragonknight (shelved)
    • 50 Orc Stamina Sorceror - Taugrim the Sorceror (shelved)
    • 50 High Elf Magicka Templar - Taugrim the Templar (shelved)

    Addons Authored
    Armorskull: Resistance Meter (Physical and Spell)
  • Jameson18
    Jameson18
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    wazzz56 wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    this thread has a toxic taste that is unfair and just plain not the truth of how the majority of eso pvp players feel.
    reading the comments and the thread title gives the impression that anyone using the set needs to be ashamed and feel bad, but that is just not the truth seen in pvp and pvp zone chat as well as the guilds im a member of.
    theres nothing wrong with using this set in both pvp and pve.
    the set was made because we asked for help to stop zergs and hoards of people blobbing together, the set works good and doing its job.
    the set was made to stop zergs and huge groups that are cause massive lagg, high ping, and destroying the pvp in cryodiil.
    the set needs buffed, not nerfed.
    it needs to stay.

    Absolute Best design ever made, Especially for an mmo that has horrible ball zerg groups like eso.
    its perfect for fighting the zergs here in eso.

    the dark convergence set needs to be buffed in damage as well as Grab ability to zergs to be stronger as we can see that many zergs are escaping it. they simply run through its grab somehow and that needs to be buffed to make sure it keeps working as was intended and spoken about it the patch notes.

    is it possible that the only people angry about this set are the ones in zergs and large groups that it is intended for?
    i dont know, but i can assure you that it does what we asked for when it works as it should.


    and again my comments and feedback here is only just that, my feedback, not intended to anger anyone.

    Is this a satirical comment?

    It has to be. [snip]

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_SarahF on October 11, 2021 4:37PM
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    wazzz56 wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    this thread has a toxic taste that is unfair and just plain not the truth of how the majority of eso pvp players feel.
    reading the comments and the thread title gives the impression that anyone using the set needs to be ashamed and feel bad, but that is just not the truth seen in pvp and pvp zone chat as well as the guilds im a member of.
    theres nothing wrong with using this set in both pvp and pve.
    the set was made because we asked for help to stop zergs and hoards of people blobbing together, the set works good and doing its job.
    the set was made to stop zergs and huge groups that are cause massive lagg, high ping, and destroying the pvp in cryodiil.
    the set needs buffed, not nerfed.
    it needs to stay.

    Absolute Best design ever made, Especially for an mmo that has horrible ball zerg groups like eso.
    its perfect for fighting the zergs here in eso.

    the dark convergence set needs to be buffed in damage as well as Grab ability to zergs to be stronger as we can see that many zergs are escaping it. they simply run through its grab somehow and that needs to be buffed to make sure it keeps working as was intended and spoken about it the patch notes.

    is it possible that the only people angry about this set are the ones in zergs and large groups that it is intended for?
    i dont know, but i can assure you that it does what we asked for when it works as it should.


    and again my comments and feedback here is only just that, my feedback, not intended to anger anyone.

    Is this a satirical comment? There has been a lot of horrible ideas released in eso, and this is the worse ever set forth onto live servers...the set is a crutch, a one button carry that though it may be effective against zergs, it is also employed by zergs to chase and group down solo and small groups with the simplicity of one click each.....want to make fighting faction stacks and ball groups easier? bring back no out of group healing and limit group sizes even further.....or just keep on introducing sets that are game breakers and cause an already dwindling population of pvpers to leave the game.....I will end by saying it is ok if you want to use the set, it is your game play as you will.....but to ignore the reality of what that set is and to actually call for it to be buffed is pretty wild.....

    its not satire, its not a sarcasm, its not funny, infact it is very embarrassing that new people come to eso and find massive groups destroying the pvp and game.
    we asked for help in stopping the zergs, we got help with this set "dark convergence"
    However, they leaders of these groups has found a way around the set and the set is no longer stoping them, they just run right through it and are not being effected by the set now.

    the. set. needs. its radius increased and the damage increased to help stop the zergs. thats not a joke, its not satire.
    its just plain honest truth and honest feedback.
    rest assured, that i did read your response to my feedback comment(s), i always do. and unless i respond back to your comment directly, then i will always stand by my original feedback statement. and by the way, im sure someone wont like my wishes, or disagree with my wishes, all i can say to that is:
    i have no interest in debating i dont care i just giving my honest feedback.
  • Larcomar
    Larcomar
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, you haven't....
  • taugrim
    taugrim
    ✭✭✭
    Thread on the ESO sub-Reddit entitled "Just played a BG without anyone running Dark convergence and actually had an enjoyable PVP experience"

    https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/q5wr8j/just_played_a_bg_without_anyone_running_dark/
    PC | NA | CP 12XX
    • 50 Nord Stamina Warden - Taugrim the Warden (main)
    • 50 Nord Stamina Nightblade - Taugrim the Nightblade (main alt) - still noob with this class, never played a "rogue" archetype in any game, but it's so well implemented in ESO
    • 50 Nord Stamina Dragonknight - Taugrim the Dragonknight (shelved)
    • 50 Orc Stamina Sorceror - Taugrim the Sorceror (shelved)
    • 50 High Elf Magicka Templar - Taugrim the Templar (shelved)

    Addons Authored
    Armorskull: Resistance Meter (Physical and Spell)
  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    taugrim wrote: »
    Thread on the ESO sub-Reddit entitled "Just played a BG without anyone running Dark convergence and actually had an enjoyable PVP experience"

    https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/q5wr8j/just_played_a_bg_without_anyone_running_dark/
    Wow lucky you 2 days after this set was released, I have not been in an BG without it on at least one person if not more. Dark Convergence should not be allowed in BG’s if it was designed to stop ball groups in Cyrodill what it is doing in BG’s anyway.

    Stay safe and enjoy the journey :)
  • xDeusEJRx
    xDeusEJRx
    ✭✭✭
    I feel like all 3 rewards sets are all fundamentally toxic.
    Dark convergence is the yo-yo set
    Plaguebreak is the troll and kill your entire faction with a defensive ability set
    Hrothgar was the get bursted down because a tank was in your vicinity (pre-nerf) set
    Solo PvP'er, GM of Holy Grail Seekers. PS4 NA player
  • taugrim
    taugrim
    ✭✭✭
    Hotdog_23 wrote: »
    taugrim wrote: »
    Thread on the ESO sub-Reddit entitled "Just played a BG without anyone running Dark convergence and actually had an enjoyable PVP experience"

    https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/q5wr8j/just_played_a_bg_without_anyone_running_dark/
    Wow lucky you 2 days after this set was released, I have not been in an BG without it on at least one person if not more. Dark Convergence should not be allowed in BG’s if it was designed to stop ball groups in Cyrodill what it is doing in BG’s anyway.

    Stay safe and enjoy the journey :)

    To me the issue isn't just not having it in BGs. It's TOTALLY toxic for Cyro / IC as well.

    The set is way too faceroll effective in any group context.
    PC | NA | CP 12XX
    • 50 Nord Stamina Warden - Taugrim the Warden (main)
    • 50 Nord Stamina Nightblade - Taugrim the Nightblade (main alt) - still noob with this class, never played a "rogue" archetype in any game, but it's so well implemented in ESO
    • 50 Nord Stamina Dragonknight - Taugrim the Dragonknight (shelved)
    • 50 Orc Stamina Sorceror - Taugrim the Sorceror (shelved)
    • 50 High Elf Magicka Templar - Taugrim the Templar (shelved)

    Addons Authored
    Armorskull: Resistance Meter (Physical and Spell)
  • neferpitou73
    neferpitou73
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vevvev wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    wazzz56 wrote: »
    Gilvoth wrote: »
    this thread has a toxic taste that is unfair and just plain not the truth of how the majority of eso pvp players feel.
    reading the comments and the thread title gives the impression that anyone using the set needs to be ashamed and feel bad, but that is just not the truth seen in pvp and pvp zone chat as well as the guilds im a member of.
    theres nothing wrong with using this set in both pvp and pve.
    the set was made because we asked for help to stop zergs and hoards of people blobbing together, the set works good and doing its job.
    the set was made to stop zergs and huge groups that are cause massive lagg, high ping, and destroying the pvp in cryodiil.
    the set needs buffed, not nerfed.
    it needs to stay.

    Absolute Best design ever made, Especially for an mmo that has horrible ball zerg groups like eso.
    its perfect for fighting the zergs here in eso.

    the dark convergence set needs to be buffed in damage as well as Grab ability to zergs to be stronger as we can see that many zergs are escaping it. they simply run through its grab somehow and that needs to be buffed to make sure it keeps working as was intended and spoken about it the patch notes.

    is it possible that the only people angry about this set are the ones in zergs and large groups that it is intended for?
    i dont know, but i can assure you that it does what we asked for when it works as it should.


    and again my comments and feedback here is only just that, my feedback, not intended to anger anyone.

    Is this a satirical comment? There has been a lot of horrible ideas released in eso, and this is the worse ever set forth onto live servers...the set is a crutch, a one button carry that though it may be effective against zergs, it is also employed by zergs to chase and group down solo and small groups with the simplicity of one click each.....want to make fighting faction stacks and ball groups easier? bring back no out of group healing and limit group sizes even further.....or just keep on introducing sets that are game breakers and cause an already dwindling population of pvpers to leave the game.....I will end by saying it is ok if you want to use the set, it is your game play as you will.....but to ignore the reality of what that set is and to actually call for it to be buffed is pretty wild.....

    its not satire, its not a sarcasm, its not funny, infact it is very embarrassing that new people come to eso and find massive groups destroying the pvp and game.
    we asked for help in stopping the zergs, we got help with this set "dark convergence"
    However, they leaders of these groups has found a way around the set and the set is no longer stoping them, they just run right through it and are not being effected by the set now.

    the. set. needs. its radius increased and the damage increased to help stop the zergs. thats not a joke, its not satire.
    its just plain honest truth and honest feedback.

    I'm sorry but whatever you're given, whatever things are buffed, a ball group will be able to use 12 times more effectively due to numbers. And the day it is no longer profitable to group up for whatever reason the ball groups won't give a [snip]. They'll just continue coordinating in voice chat and stay together like they always do. Numbers and coordination mean everything in this game, and sets like Dark Convergence have only made the situation worse for the people the devs designed the set for.

    Yep. My group doesn't play in Proc for a variety of reasons. But if we did I wouldn't hesitate to put DC on as many builds as possible. I saw this set on the PTS and laughed when they said it was going to stop ball groups.
    President and CEO of NefStones Inc
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