How badly will "joining encounter" be abused? Read for why

CaffeinatedMayhem

While running a random vet today, someone apparently thought the "joining encounter in progress" changes from PTS were on live, because when 3 out of 4 group members had trouble with the "skip" in CoA2, the tank ran ahead to a boss... leaving the group to die to mobs.

Which made me think: with the new changes, the group would get pulled out of that skip. Now, I'm not a fan of "skips" in dungeons BUT... it also occurred to me, what if I'm farming that dungeon on a tank? What if I'm looking for chests so I can get set pieces? Some DPS doesn't care, runs ahead and pulls the group. Now I want to go back at the end of the dungeon to find chests. Yeah, my tank won't be clearing those mobs by herself, or with Bastian. Neither will my healer.

Another scenario: Anyone remember when NB tanks were used in Sunspire farm runs to avoid mobs? Cloak through to the next boss and pull the group boss-to-boss? Don't tell me that won't happen in pledges.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, thinking that you should actually run the content in a game. Crazy, I know. But really, what's the point of dungeons when most groups (even skilled players with high DPS and fully geared supports) spend all their time trying to find a way around mobs.

Maybe the devs should put PvE transmute crystals behind daily crafting writs, because most people in dungeons just don't seem to want to run the content. Honestly, most people in guilds don't want to either, if the deafening silence to "anyone want to run pledges/randoms?" is any indicator.

ceiron

I am also intrigued by the feature.

Were discussing it last night.

Say you get coh1 or 2. The first boss is skippable. So what happens if 1 runs to the 2nd boss. Aggros while 1 aggros the first boss?

Does everyone go to boss 1 as it's chronologically where we should be. Or do we all jump to the second as it's further along now and 1st boss is deemed done by the coding.

Or does it just implode lol

Eormenric

Oh I would really not like it if I join a group and start clearing mobs only to have people go, "Bruh, just run to the first boss, hit it and we'll port in." Like I'm some kind of chauffeur...

But, I think 3/4 (or the majority) of players will need to be actively engaged in the boss in order to pull the last one. Check out their wording on the 7.2.0 patch notes: "You will now utilize “Joining Encounter in Progress” to travel to a dungeon boss when it is engaged by the group." If this stands correctly, then it would need to be a coordinated effort of 3 other party members to pull you to where you don't want to go.

A better alternative would be: Boss Engaged. Do you want to join the encounter in progress? X to join, F to hide this notice. But shortened to simply: "Join encounter in progress? X Join / F Dismiss"

AinSoph

Yeah, but then you realize that Curation won't apply to chests.

redspecter23

I had been thinking about the NB/cloak situation. I think it highlights more of an issue with cloak than with the pull in mechanic. There are A LOT of dungeons that can be cloaked through 90%+ of trash and bosses. Most of the earlier dungeons have 1, maybe 2 required fights with doors that must be completed then a free run to the end boss.

I feel like there will definitely be situations where trash is just plain skipped completely to speed things up. We've seen this in the past with players running and potentially taking an intentional death right before a boss to have the trash leash. Even better to just kill it all along with the boss if possible.

To your point, there is definitely room to use this mechanic "creatively". I'm positive ZOS doesn't intend for this sort of behavior, but they also don't intend for players to run past mobs whether they are cloaked or not. We'll see if they make any adjustments based on feedback after this goes live. I anticipate plenty of trolling, but those players would be trolling anyway. I'm very interested in playing around with this mechanic once it goes live, with a willing group of course. This could end up being a nightmare for pugs.

redspecter23

ceiron wrote: »

I am also intrigued by the feature.

Were discussing it last night.

Say you get coh1 or 2. The first boss is skippable. So what happens if 1 runs to the 2nd boss. Aggros while 1 aggros the first boss?

Does everyone go to boss 1 as it's chronologically where we should be. Or do we all jump to the second as it's further along now and 1st boss is deemed done by the coding.

Or does it just implode lol

As an extension to this point, if you engage a boss you could normally skip, will it follow you or will you be forced back to fight it? Take Spindle 1 (I don't think it's enabled for this one yet, but just an example) If you engage any optional boss in there, it will not naturally ever leash. It will follow you forever. What happens when you try to run past it? Will you have to finish it off in order to continue or can you keep running?

CaffeinatedMayhem

AinSoph wrote: »

Yeah, but then you realize that Curation won't apply to chests.

SO? If I'm farming a set, I want every chance at a piece I can get. Would have been a real shame to skip the SIMPLE chest on my 150th? run of Arx that gave my fire staff.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Eormenric wrote: »

A better alternative would be: Boss Engaged. Do you want to join the encounter in progress? X to join, F to hide this notice. But shortened to simply: "Join encounter in progress? X Join / F Dismiss"

I don't know, and i haven't had the chance to play with this on PTS. What's the point of "pulling that 1 person who likes to loot a bit too much" in a pug, if they can just say "no" and spend the next 10 mins opening crates?

Joining Encounter in trials is NOT optional, if you're close enough you get pulled. Had someone start a nAS+2 that way, when the group was already upstairs. Trolls be trolls yo.

I'd hoped someone had looked at this feature, but I'm not surprised no one can get a group together for PTS, especially with no trial or arena to write a guide for. Given that I can't get a guild group on live, there's no way I'll find one for PTS.

Austinseph1

Honestly anything more than simply completing a dungeon in group finder is more than you should expect. You're lucky to get a real tank and a group that knows their role well. If you want more than simple completion, like time to read story quests, search for chests, or a lot of the time just a pleasant experience, then you need to put your own group together. We forget that group finder isn't a catch all tool to for making groups that are there for the same interest as you, be it if you are there for the lore or a piece of gear to search for every chest spawn. 80-90% of people in the finder are there for a random dungeon completion or a pledge and could care less about anything but completion.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Honestly anything more than simply completing a dungeon in group finder is more than you should expect. You're lucky to get a real tank and a group that knows their role well. If you want more than simple completion, like time to read story quests, search for chests, or a lot of the time just a pleasant experience, then you need to put your own group together. We forget that group finder isn't a catch all tool to for making groups that are there for the same interest as you, be it if you are there for the lore or a piece of gear to search for every chest spawn. 80-90% of people in the finder are there for a random dungeon completion or a pledge and could care less about anything but completion.

Right, so let me ask: when was the last time you responded to someone asking in guild chat for a group? Because sure, I’d much rather run with a premade, if anyone ever responded. Which doesn’t happen very often. To get the gear I need to keep tanking vet trials, I have to run the dungeons I need 5-8 times on pledge days, IF i can get that many completes.

While I realize that telling someone “well don’t expect more than a clear” is the easy answer, do you realize how many groups fail because they skip simple basics like, making sure everyone is ready and knows mechanics? Probably 75% of the groups I’ve had to leave would have cleared, if people queued ready for that role and did the mechanics.

It’s not like I can go back for chests now, when I’m put into a half completed dungeon where the group skipped all the mobs.

But again, if all you want is to skip the content, why are you in a dungeon? Go PvP, way more transmutes there.

colossalvoids

Every change to the game might be abused negatively in pugs, I don't think any features like that should be balanced around random dungeon finder which will be always a mess because some impatient or too slow / weak players. Join encounter in progress is absolutely needed in both trials and dungeons, pugs were always a gamble and will stay that way regardless.

code65536

So, the main benefit for this feature is for trials where you can be locked out of a boss room. Triplets and final boss of HoF, Rakkhat in MoL, and the final boss in Sanctum are the main culprits. Right now, if you disconnect or crash on one of those boss fights, you can't get back in.

The benefits in dungeons are more limited. All the recent DLC dungeons already have this, and retrofitting this into some older DLC dungeons can prevent certain forms of cheese (e.g., PUGs that want to pull the third boss in March of Sacrifices out of the intended fight area).

I don't think it would enable anything that is not already possible. E.g., if someone wants to skip trash between two bosses, they can just run past them and die. Okay, this might make that a bit less messy, but I don't think it would enable anything that was not previously possible.

I am curious about how it would work with older base-game dungeons that don't have a linear path between bosses. E.g., CoA1, where you could choose to go right or left first after coming down the initial tree.

Xebov

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, thinking that you should actually run the content in a game.

The content is done. The goal is to kill the final boss to finish the dungeon. There is nothing saying how you have to get there. Stealth is a big part of TES games and as such if you can skip something you are free to do so.

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Honestly, most people in guilds don't want to either, if the deafening silence to "anyone want to run pledges/randoms?" is any indicator.

Thats an indicator that players organize themselves and use the ways the game offers them to do it when they want and dont wait for others.

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Yeah, but then you realize that Curation won't apply to chests.

SO? If I'm farming a set, I want every chance at a piece I can get. Would have been a real shame to skip the SIMPLE chest on my 150th? run of Arx that gave my fire staff.

Now its hard capped to 45 runs, for some dungeons even less.

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Right, so let me ask: when was the last time you responded to someone asking in guild chat for a group? Because sure, I’d much rather run with a premade, if anyone ever responded. Which doesn’t happen very often. To get the gear I need to keep tanking vet trials, I have to run the dungeons I need 5-8 times on pledge days, IF i can get that many completes.

Then maybe you should ask members of your trial group(s) to assist you with gear farming. Or you should find some more players that either play like you or that you know good enought so they lend you a hand.

[snip] All you say is that you have a playstyle for dungeons and you complain that other players dont follow that playstyle and imply they are not interested in the content just because they do it different from you. At the same point you show that you didnt put much efford into finding likeminded players to play with and instead expect everyone else to change for you.

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

But again, if all you want is to skip the content, why are you in a dungeon? Go PvP, way more transmutes there.

Dungeons are about killing bosses and especially the end boss to beat it. Why should i go into PvP just because you dont like it that iam not doing any side boss or any add group in the dungeon?

[edited for baiting]

kojou

They will likely make updates to the dungeons that will block or punish us for trying to skip. They have made it so doors won't open until the boss is dead etc. We will likely see more of that if this gets abused. Hopefully groups will determine if everyone wants to skip before doing so, and not drag the poor player who wants to do the quest into the first fight because they are in a hurry so there isn't a bunch of forum posts about it. I have my doubts though...

CaffeinatedMayhem

Then maybe you should ask members of your trial group(s) to assist you with gear farming. Or you should find some more players that either play like you or that you know good enought so they lend you a hand.

What part of me saying "I ask in all 4 (5 now) of my guilds before running pledges or randoms and no one ever responds" means "I'm not trying?" YES I WANT TO RUN WITH GUILDIES NO ONE EVER DOES... even my trials groups who KNOW who is farming what for the next prog.

The "just find a group of friend" - yep, been looking for that for 8 YEARS. Never found it, well for more than a few months and then people get fed up with the game and leave.

It's great that so many people have such great luck, now if the rest of us could have that too.....

CaffeinatedMayhem

kojou wrote: »

They will likely make updates to the dungeons that will block or punish us for trying to skip. They have made it so doors won't open until the boss is dead etc. We will likely see more of that if this gets abused. Hopefully groups will determine if everyone wants to skip before doing so, and not drag the poor player who wants to do the quest into the first fight because they are in a hurry so there isn't a bunch of forum posts about it. I have my doubts though...

I agree with this, but we know pugs aren't going to ask. I can't remember the last time someone (besides myself) ASKED if the group wanted to do HM on anything. So used to someone triggering HM, and then it's usually that same person who fails HM.

I miss the early years when "horror story" pugs were rare, and most people followed basic dungeon etiquette (point out chests/hs, ask if everyone is ok with HM, came at least minimally prepared for the role, etc)

Amottica

Eormenric wrote: »

Oh I would really not like it if I join a group and start clearing mobs only to have people go, "Bruh, just run to the first boss, hit it and we'll port in." Like I'm some kind of chauffeur...

But, I think 3/4 (or the majority) of players will need to be actively engaged in the boss in order to pull the last one. Check out their wording on the 7.2.0 patch notes: "You will now utilize “Joining Encounter in Progress” to travel to a dungeon boss when it is engaged by the group." If this stands correctly, then it would need to be a coordinated effort of 3 other party members to pull you to where you don't want to go.

A better alternative would be: Boss Engaged. Do you want to join the encounter in progress? X to join, F to hide this notice. But shortened to simply: "Join encounter in progress? X Join / F Dismiss"

For GF groups I think the requirement that a majority being engaged with the boss is a sound idea. It prevents one person from causing problems with the boss or essentially controlling the group's progression.

I can see the forum threads now rightfully complaining because one person ran ahead and did this over and over. Granted, they should just kick the person but it might be the (real) tank.

karekiz

It won't change much other than people not getting locked outside of Darkshade 2 for instance.

You can in theory run ahead and pull the group, but it doesn't help/hurt much. Classic dungeons <Or at least Pre-Dragon Bones> speed runs aren't that difficult that it would make content easier, and more modern dungeons it requires you to kill all encounters.

Would be interesting to see Trifecta added to older content similar to Dragon bones. RoM skin require full clear would be probably make that rougher to randomly get.

Xebov

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Then maybe you should ask members of your trial group(s) to assist you with gear farming. Or you should find some more players that either play like you or that you know good enought so they lend you a hand.

What part of me saying "I ask in all 4 (5 now) of my guilds before running pledges or randoms and no one ever responds" means "I'm not trying?" YES I WANT TO RUN WITH GUILDIES NO ONE EVER DOES... even my trials groups who KNOW who is farming what for the next prog.

The "just find a group of friend" - yep, been looking for that for 8 YEARS. Never found it, well for more than a few months and then people get fed up with the game and leave.

It's great that so many people have such great luck, now if the rest of us could have that too.....

Then you should try and talk to these ppl directly. I can only tell you this: Iam in a single trade guild and ppl regularly find each otehr to do stuff with. I dont always react directly to the guild chat if iam occupied, but i react to tells. Whenever i need something i simply talk to ppl i know directly and ask for help or if they want to join in and this has worked for me for years.

Amottica wrote: »

Eormenric wrote: »

Oh I would really not like it if I join a group and start clearing mobs only to have people go, "Bruh, just run to the first boss, hit it and we'll port in." Like I'm some kind of chauffeur...

But, I think 3/4 (or the majority) of players will need to be actively engaged in the boss in order to pull the last one. Check out their wording on the 7.2.0 patch notes: "You will now utilize “Joining Encounter in Progress” to travel to a dungeon boss when it is engaged by the group." If this stands correctly, then it would need to be a coordinated effort of 3 other party members to pull you to where you don't want to go.

A better alternative would be: Boss Engaged. Do you want to join the encounter in progress? X to join, F to hide this notice. But shortened to simply: "Join encounter in progress? X Join / F Dismiss"

For GF groups I think the requirement that a majority being engaged with the boss is a sound idea. It prevents one person from causing problems with the boss or essentially controlling the group's progression.

I can see the forum threads now rightfully complaining because one person ran ahead and did this over and over. Granted, they should just kick the person but it might be the (real) tank.

This would not work out, if you have a door then you would end up with half of the group still outside because not enought players where present.

I honestly dont see what ppl complain about. I do alot of dungeons, but the case that someone simply runs through everything and skips everything is extremely rare, especially given that some dungeons even have doors that you cant open if you dont kill the stuff. As such it shouldnt be used as the norm when deciding about the feature. It will help pull the group together when someone decides that he rather wants to loot all the wooden boxes instead of doing the actual dungeon. More importantly it will streamline the pug dungeon progress because the only goal that unites a pug group is getting the dungeon done.

Disturbed_One

Find a group to run with that meets your needs...

If you can't, and you've been trying, maybe alter your approach.

If you're anything like you are here (combative, argumentative, demanding people play YOUR way), I would avoid grouping with you too, but that's just my opinion.

Phaedryn

Honestly, I assume, in a pug, all bosses/content are going to be done. Skipping and similar is for a premade or where everyone agreed to it before hand.

Austinseph1

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Honestly anything more than simply completing a dungeon in group finder is more than you should expect. You're lucky to get a real tank and a group that knows their role well. If you want more than simple completion, like time to read story quests, search for chests, or a lot of the time just a pleasant experience, then you need to put your own group together. We forget that group finder isn't a catch all tool to for making groups that are there for the same interest as you, be it if you are there for the lore or a piece of gear to search for every chest spawn. 80-90% of people in the finder are there for a random dungeon completion or a pledge and could care less about anything but completion.

Right, so let me ask: when was the last time you responded to someone asking in guild chat for a group? Because sure, I’d much rather run with a premade, if anyone ever responded. Which doesn’t happen very often. To get the gear I need to keep tanking vet trials, I have to run the dungeons I need 5-8 times on pledge days, IF i can get that many completes.

While I realize that telling someone “well don’t expect more than a clear” is the easy answer, do you realize how many groups fail because they skip simple basics like, making sure everyone is ready and knows mechanics? Probably 75% of the groups I’ve had to leave would have cleared, if people queued ready for that role and did the mechanics.

It’s not like I can go back for chests now, when I’m put into a half completed dungeon where the group skipped all the mobs.

But again, if all you want is to skip the content, why are you in a dungeon? Go PvP, way more transmutes there.

I do pledges daily with people in my guild, I have 5 and 3 are for PvE related content so its pretty easy to get a group of people that know what they are doing together. I also have friends on my list particularly for higher level dungeon content so we can do vet HM for the worst DLC dungeons. When I do go into group finder I have very low expectations, like having 300-400 cp players thrown into the newest vet content blind, If i see a chest I'll call it out but I wouldn't spend a lot of time making others wait so I could search the chest spawns even though by know i know many of them. The problem is that now PvE has a better source of transmutes and a more consistent supply. You can blow through each random normal on a dozen characters and get 120 a day, every day. That is 3,600 transmutes a month compared to what you can get In pvp... I would recommend getting into an LFG guild for pve content. Your experience will be so much better if you want to expand what you do in the dungeons past getting a clear with constant fake tanks and skipping content.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Your experience will be so much better if you want to expand what you do in the dungeons past getting a clear with constant fake tanks and skipping content.

Yes, I've been searching for one of those "LFG" guilds for PvE... the only guild that says they are deciated to dungeon content is a TRIFECTAS SUPER HM guild, which while I enjoy those, isn't what I"m looking for. Yes, most guilds have people that advertisze for groups, usually not at times when I'm free. I haven't seen a dedicated dungeons guild for several years now. So you know, it's not like I'm not trying, but most "PvE" guilds in the guild finder are trade guilds or trials guilds (and I have plenty of trials discords, but again, everyone is always grinding something different and if I'm off cycle in getting gear, I'm out of luck for a group)

Honestly, thyis topic isn't about my inability to find groups in my guilds (you know, guilds full of people I like), because my topic on that got closed in General. I just wish everyone saying that I HAVE to do whatever realizes that not everyone gets lucky in finding the right group. And it's not that we don't try, but sometimes, when you have a free guild slot, that guild is full, etc. I get it, but please, stop with the "well it's your fault. you don't spend all day pugging your guilds for 1 random normal."

SickDuck

AinSoph wrote: »

Yeah, but then you realize that Curation won't apply to chests.

More than half of the set items only drop from the last boss OR chests. So chests are pretty useful, especially in hard dungeons or trials.

Xebov

SickDuck wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Yeah, but then you realize that Curation won't apply to chests.

More than half of the set items only drop from the last boss OR chests. So chests are pretty useful, especially in hard dungeons or trials.

For dungeons difficulty makes no difference. Vet only adds the benefit of all chests having a set piece, but then again you might be faster running it twice on normal.
For trials chests are always in the same areas and difficulty plays no role there because perfected items dont come from chests anyways. So you end up either doing it normal and taking all chests anyways or doing it vet and ignore the chests because you are after perfected gear.

AinSoph

SickDuck wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Yeah, but then you realize that Curation won't apply to chests.

More than half of the set items only drop from the last boss OR chests. So chests are pretty useful, especially in hard dungeons or trials.

So you would still do chests despite having everything in the dungeon's drop table applied as well as wasting time instead of speedrunning normal with boosted drop rates?

NettleCarrier

I haven't seen anything that said this was added to dungeons, only some older trials. Am I missing something?

Xebov

NettleCarrier wrote: »

I haven't seen anything that said this was added to dungeons, only some older trials. Am I missing something?

From the Patch Notes:

You will now utilize “Joining Encounter in Progress” to travel to a dungeon boss when it is engaged by the group. This will eventually roll out to all existing dungeons, but below is a list of the dungeons that currently have this functionality added:

Bloodroot Forge
City of Ash II
Cradle of Shadows
Crypt of Hearts II
Darkshade Caverns II
Elden Hollow II
Falkreath Hold
Fang Lair
Imperial City Prison
March of Sacrifices
Moon Hunter Keep
Ruins of Mazzatun
Scalecaller Peak
Spindleclutch II
Wayrest Sewers II
White-Gold Tower

redspecter23

AinSoph wrote: »

SickDuck wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Yeah, but then you realize that Curation won't apply to chests.

More than half of the set items only drop from the last boss OR chests. So chests are pretty useful, especially in hard dungeons or trials.

So you would still do chests despite having everything in the dungeon's drop table applied as well as wasting time instead of speedrunning normal with boosted drop rates?

Depends on the situation. I would generally go for chests if I still need anything or if anyone in my group does. If it's an out of the way location, I probably won't search it, but I will definitely force lock a chest along the way. Even if I have absolutely everything from the dungeon, I would still loot a chest if it's relatively quick in case someone else needs the item.

Any chest that drops a weapon that someone needs means one less full run for that player overall. It seems like solid potential time savings if the chest itself takes less than 5 seconds overall many times.

DrSlaughtr

You can't stop people from burning through dungeons. This will stop those who get left behind from missing loot

Xebov

redspecter23 wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

SickDuck wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Yeah, but then you realize that Curation won't apply to chests.

More than half of the set items only drop from the last boss OR chests. So chests are pretty useful, especially in hard dungeons or trials.

So you would still do chests despite having everything in the dungeon's drop table applied as well as wasting time instead of speedrunning normal with boosted drop rates?

Depends on the situation. I would generally go for chests if I still need anything or if anyone in my group does. If it's an out of the way location, I probably won't search it, but I will definitely force lock a chest along the way. Even if I have absolutely everything from the dungeon, I would still loot a chest if it's relatively quick in case someone else needs the item.

Any chest that drops a weapon that someone needs means one less full run for that player overall. It seems like solid potential time savings if the chest itself takes less than 5 seconds overall many times.

Thats hugely different from OP who sounds like he still wants to crawl into every hole.