Plaguebreak should not punish self-cleanse

ealdwin

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Or you could just simply remove the auto cleanse from Netch? Watch where you're standing if you attempt to cleanse, the idea seems fine to me as you have time to manage the potential burst from Plaguebreaker. A lot more reasonable really.

Let use remove it from both PvP and PvE (yes, it's also usefull in PvE) just to counter a broken set.
What a brilliant idea!

People have been complaining about the free, spammable netch for a long time (rightfully so). I think it should lose the cleanse, too. It's still a crazy good skill without it.

That's a debate worth having, but if Netch is changed it should be based on the the skill's power relative to it's function within the Warden kit, not because of it's interaction with Plaguebreak. One set shouldn't be the cause of an ability being nerfed.

neferpitou73

Vaoh wrote: »

This set should only proc when purged by another player. This means Purge, Templar ritual, etc.

Furthermore, they should really adjust the Purge ability already:

PURGE
Cost: 11,745 Magicka
Cleanse yourself, removing up to 3 negative effects immediately.

EFFICIENT PURGE
Cost: 3915 Magicka
Cleanse yourself, removing up to 3 negative effects immediately.
Effect: Greatly reduces the cost.

CLEANSE
Cost: 11,745 Magicka
Cleanse yourself and your group, removing up to 3 negative effects immediately.
Effect: Cleanses you and your group.

These changes would make the set redundant. But I agree with the changes you posted. If you want to nerf purge that's how you do it, not by introducing a set.

DrSlaughtr

ealdwin wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Or you could just simply remove the auto cleanse from Netch? Watch where you're standing if you attempt to cleanse, the idea seems fine to me as you have time to manage the potential burst from Plaguebreaker. A lot more reasonable really.

Let use remove it from both PvP and PvE (yes, it's also usefull in PvE) just to counter a broken set.
What a brilliant idea!

People have been complaining about the free, spammable netch for a long time (rightfully so). I think it should lose the cleanse, too. It's still a crazy good skill without it.

That's a debate worth having, but if Netch is changed it should be based on the the skill's power relative to it's function within the Warden kit, not because of it's interaction with Plaguebreak. One set shouldn't be the cause of an ability being nerfed.

Point being that debate has been ongoing long before plague break.

kringled_1

Vaoh wrote: »

This set should only proc when purged by another player. This means Purge, Templar ritual, etc.

Furthermore, they should really adjust the Purge ability already:

PURGE
Cost: 11,745 Magicka
Cleanse yourself, removing up to 3 negative effects immediately.

EFFICIENT PURGE
Cost: 3915 Magicka
Cleanse yourself, removing up to 3 negative effects immediately.
Effect: Greatly reduces the cost.

CLEANSE
Cost: 11,745 Magicka
Cleanse yourself and your group, removing up to 3 negative effects immediately.
Effect: Cleanses you and your group.

Make that adjustment and vHoF completions will plummet to near zero. The first boss there is unusual in how many and how quickly purgable dots pile up on players, but there's several other pve encounters where purge is very common to run.

Greasytengu

The problem isnt that plaguebreak stops purge spamming, its that it stops all purges. Its no longer a skill than can be used, the risk is too great!

Its not even punishing the Ball groups, they just remove purge and heal more to compensate. They had that figure out within a day of the set being released.

divnyi

KingzZVI wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

A ramping cost on Purge (the Support skill) would be the most efficient way of addressing Purge-spamming. Give it the Streak treatment with a 33% cost increase if cast again within X seconds. A further step would be to change Efficient Purge to a self-only cleanse, so that Purge as a group cleanse remains with a high cost to cast.

Neither will help vs balls, they will allocate more than 1 person for purge spam if needed.

This set needs to be balanced to be ballbreaker, but not 1vs1 cleanse breaker.

As it stands now, it gives competitive proc DoT that has 0 CD on application but with extra utility.
And it would be sad if damage part of proc DoT was nerfed to tone it down, as it will make it unwanted in general.
Smart rules on when the explosion happens would help.

Depends on how much the cost ramps. If you decrease the number of effects cleansed and increase the cost cleansed, they won't be able to compensate no matter how many healers they have. I'll do the math later if I'm feeling motivated.

It doesn't matter. Ball would run cleanse on every char and rotate that if needed.

Adjusting to the game is how ballgroups play lol. Your arguing against players who take there time and prefect there styles or play whether you agree with there play or not. I dont agree with people with 40-60k health on seige but here we are.

Cool, ball groups are strong, who argues? How this adds to the discussion?

Any cost changes on purges will not stop ball groups using purges. Plaguebreak did stop purges.
Did ballgroups adapt? Yes, but now they are less cancerous. And it's good.

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Dude, I design the ball group comps.

neferpitou73 wrote: »

The goal is to reduce the number of purges cast, not eliminate it entirely.

I see the conflict of interests here

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Besides, the complaint about ball groups is that they are invulnerable to siege damage

That is an issue that needs to address separately: make siege effects unpurgeable.

neferpitou73

divnyi wrote: »

KingzZVI wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

ealdwin wrote: »

A ramping cost on Purge (the Support skill) would be the most efficient way of addressing Purge-spamming. Give it the Streak treatment with a 33% cost increase if cast again within X seconds. A further step would be to change Efficient Purge to a self-only cleanse, so that Purge as a group cleanse remains with a high cost to cast.

Neither will help vs balls, they will allocate more than 1 person for purge spam if needed.

This set needs to be balanced to be ballbreaker, but not 1vs1 cleanse breaker.

As it stands now, it gives competitive proc DoT that has 0 CD on application but with extra utility.
And it would be sad if damage part of proc DoT was nerfed to tone it down, as it will make it unwanted in general.
Smart rules on when the explosion happens would help.

Depends on how much the cost ramps. If you decrease the number of effects cleansed and increase the cost cleansed, they won't be able to compensate no matter how many healers they have. I'll do the math later if I'm feeling motivated.

It doesn't matter. Ball would run cleanse on every char and rotate that if needed.

Adjusting to the game is how ballgroups play lol. Your arguing against players who take there time and prefect there styles or play whether you agree with there play or not. I dont agree with people with 40-60k health on seige but here we are.

Cool, ball groups are strong, who argues? How this adds to the discussion?

Any cost changes on purges will not stop ball groups using purges. Plaguebreak did stop purges.
Did ballgroups adapt? Yes, but now they are less cancerous. And it's good.

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Dude, I design the ball group comps.

neferpitou73 wrote: »

The goal is to reduce the number of purges cast, not eliminate it entirely.

I see the conflict of interests here

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Besides, the complaint about ball groups is that they are invulnerable to siege damage

That is an issue that needs to address separately: make siege effects unpurgeable.

Because of course, when you're trying to fix a mechanic, you shouldn't talk to the people who are using it to its fullest extent to try to figure out how to balance it. I'm sure they have no idea what they're talking about You guys need to think past your hatred of ball groups for a second and think about how the changes you propose would affect the game in general. You're basically saying here that you want purge eliminated from the game. Purge isn't just something used by ball groups.

Making siege effects unpurgeable is going to destroy pugs as well because they won't have the healing to overcome the damage. Since they can no longer purge it.

Greasytengu wrote: »

The problem isnt that plaguebreak stops purge spamming, its that it stops all purges. Its no longer a skill than can be used, the risk is too great!

Its not even punishing the Ball groups, they just remove purge and heal more to compensate. They had that figure out within a day of the set being released.

Exactly. This guy gets it.

divnyi

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Making siege effects unpurgeable is going to destroy pugs as well because they won't have the healing to overcome the damage. Since they can no longer purge it.

And you have zero knowledge of zergs if you think they were using purges in, like, ever

Zergs will be fine. No ram? Cool, hundreds trebuchets will do the trick. Nobody stands under oil anyway, this is ridiculous and only balls do this.

neferpitou73 wrote: »

You're basically saying here that you want purge eliminated from the game.

I want AoE purge to be dangerous game that would require team coordination to stop purging when you see plague.

I don't like current mechanics that oneshot the group with AoE damage. It should be single-target damage, painful but not oneshottable, and purging plaguebreak shouldn't remove plaguebreak, but just spread it again. Something like 15k damage per cleanse will do just fine.

Saying that, I run purge and I use purge when I lead guild runs.

FairUmbrella

Using potions for buffs can counter PB for wardens pretty well.
Now ppl are dying because healers dont watch debuffs
Increasing healing power and using hots should be enough to avoid most dots

peacenote

divnyi wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

The point of it is to punish cleanses full stop, whether self cleanse or cleanse others.

Allow me to disagree. This sets were designed to counter ball groups.

Hrothgar to counter tankiness of stacked group.
Dank Conversion to screw up their coordinated movement.
Plaguebreak to counter cleanse spam.

It wasn't intended to be single-player destroyer. And also it packs OP dot anyways, so it's not like it's useless - Plaguebreak stamsorcs are literally high MMR cancerous meta in BGs because they can dot the whole group and you can't catch them.

Agreed. This is my stance / concern with all these sets. They seem to be massively disruptive beyond ball groups at the moment.

And wow, some of these suggestions. Never should a balancing act for sets that were released to address ONE SPECIFIC PLAYSTYLE in PvP be a change to abilities that are used across PvP and PvE. Also, it sure seems like regular healers who are just trying to heal are again collateral damage in all of this. I have a templar, warden, and necro healer. I definitely, as a non-ball-group (usually solo or duo) healer. want to be able to purge teammates without being punished to this extreme. I also definitely do NOT want purges removed from my skills across the entire game because of a set.

So many unintended consequences will come from going down that road. The sets need to be adjusted or more sets need to be introduced, or maybe some specific PvP CP slottables created to help counter. Anything else is pure madness, imo.

FairUmbrella

Best counter to PB is simply having situational awereness. Healing in eso pvp was close to being an npc before PB was released.
I play magplar and I just smile to dks etc trying to pressure me with it plus bunch of dotts in bgs. I still use purge because I know when to hit it and when not to.
It just kills the blind purge spammers and those around which is good mechanic. Any experienced healer knows how to navigate around it that I know off

Grandchamp1989

Here is another idea...

Zos could do like PvE and make most effects unpurgeable...

The nasty fire DOT you get in HM Stone Garden and Dread Cellar you can't purge... Have to outheal it.

Only older content such as Blackrose Prison and HOF trial really require purge.

If they made more stuff unpurgeable.. It would level the playing field.

GRXRG

KingzZVI wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

People who defend these sets just have grudges against large groups.

There is no scenario where a 40k+ proc is balanced. None. Its completely broken, and anyone who cares even a little about game balance knows this.

Plaguebreak is a really cool set, it reminds me of unstable affliction from wow. But it's so broken right now it's hilarious.

People are trying to argue for it cause they hate ballgroups, its busted needs fixed just like hrothgar and dc nerf.

If you are getting hit by those numbers you are playing poorly and with a trash build and you are a little zergling packed up with tons of people.

I barely hit plaguebreaker for 4-5k burst, sometimes 7-8k if the enemy forget to keep armor buff up, on good players with good pvp builds, and I have almost 7k wd and 15k pen, so my plaguebreaker tooltip is really high.

Probably a Vicious Death can hit you for 100k damage if you receive those plague numbers.

And by the way you really want a FREE cast skill that gives recoveries, major sorcery/brutality, a cleanse that can be spammed if needed, to have zero drawbacks? I would love to have that free button on my magdk jesus.

Stop complaing and change build/learn to play.

ealdwin

GRXRG wrote: »

KingzZVI wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

People who defend these sets just have grudges against large groups.

There is no scenario where a 40k+ proc is balanced. None. Its completely broken, and anyone who cares even a little about game balance knows this.

Plaguebreak is a really cool set, it reminds me of unstable affliction from wow. But it's so broken right now it's hilarious.

People are trying to argue for it cause they hate ballgroups, its busted needs fixed just like hrothgar and dc nerf.

And by the way you really want a FREE cast skill that gives recoveries, major sorcery/brutality, a cleanse that can be spammed if needed, to have zero drawbacks? I would love to have that free button on my magdk jesus.

A discussion about the power budget given to Netch and how it fits within the Warden kit may very well be one worth having. But, it should be a separate discussion outside of the context of Plaguebreak. Netch shouldn't be nerfed because of the problems regarding Plaguebreak.

Sets shouldn't cause skills to be nerfed.