So how is the crit damage cap most likely to be reached (or not) in PvE?

karekiz · September 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

If you really want to keep running mostly what you are running now Take of Kilt and wear malacath and stack to 175%. Then you will be at the 125% cap after the Malacath penalty and you get 16% more damage. Win, win.

NOPE.

I WANNA WEAR THE SAME THING.

mzprx · September 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

...No, I get it. I just don't think anything you are saying is a problem. Yes, you have to change your build. Yes, that happens all the time. No you can't just keep running the same thing you are running in live and expect it to have the same level of performance in the next patch. And also, other players are going to have to make adjustments as well to account for staying at or under the cap. It isn't just a khajit thing. Everyone is going to have to adjust. Khajiits just have more flexibility to do so. More options to run other sets or skills. So no, I don't think your issues here are valid.

And again, I think this is a clear message that crit damage was too high. I highly doubt they walk this back just so players have to do less work avoiding stacking it. (I say work, but it is super easy to not run sets or skills that would put you over cap).

again, i don't mean to be condescending here, so please accept my apologies if i sound like it..

but you don't get it. you don't think anything i was talking about was a problem? i have zero issues with changing gear. have been doing that since i started playing this game. i don't mind that. i also don't expect everything to stay the same as it is now. you misunderstood me. the issue here is that if i wasn't a Khajiit i wouldn't have this problem. i could still happily use what i use now. that doesn't necessarily mean it would get me the same results in terms of damage, but at least i wouldn't have to worry about getting over the cap. do you see where i'm going with this? i will have to change my gear only because i am a Khajiit, not because there are better sets..

and yes, there is a way to keep using the gear i use ATM. but if i get into a group and they will want to use a DK tank it will provide another reason for the raid leader to tell me to buzz off. no one wants stamina DDs in Trials anyway. and getting over the cap just because our tank is a DK will just give them another valid reason to ask me politely to leave or change character..

so Khajiits actually have less flexibility to adjust. there are sets that we simply can't use. because we are Khajiits..

Trixterion · September 2021

divnyi wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

Poor Danmer MagDK cannot get above 130% by any means without medium armor

In above scenario, you need 30% to reach the cap.

Minor Force +10%, CP stars +25% - already 5% above cap, and can also go for Shadow mundus for +17%.

So much for "cannot get by any means".

Let me do the math:
Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
15% from Backstabber
10% from Fighting Finesse
20% from Major Force
10% from Minor Force
5% per Elemental Weakness from Elemental Catalyst (maximum 15%)
10% from Minor Brittle
Remember, I said WTHOUT medium armor(sure we can add both medium and Kilt[but Kilt is considered as medium, therefore it wasn't considered as a source), as well as Shadow is waisted without actual crit chance and we want to have at least 60% crit rate.

that is a total of 130% without medium armor, Kilt in particular and Shadow as a waist over Thief

jaws343 · September 2021

mzprx wrote: »

so Khajiits actually have less flexibility to adjust. there are sets that we simply can't use. because we are Khajiits..

There are sets that you are not forced to use now. And a whole game worth of sets that you now have available to you to optimize your build around.

muh · September 2021

So, some of the arguments for the 125% cap I have read here is that you can just run different gear or slot different CP and basically lose nothing in the process, you just gain flexibility.

CHAMPION POINTS
Looking at alternatives for CP first, currently the way to go is [Master-At-Arms], [Deadly or Biting Aura], [Fighting Finesse] and [Backstabber or Thaumaturge], should be good enough to go with. If you run a crit class, you might decide to drop Fighting Finesse and just slot Thaumaturge all the time. Fine, sounds great, right?

Maybe not though. For example, nightblade does around 70% of direct damage, if we assume that the remaining 30% is a DoT, we roughly get a 3% damage increase from Thaumaturge. If we would get the 10% crit damage from fighting finesse though, we probably look more at conservative ~70% crit chance, so 7% damage increase. Whoops, doesn't look that great anymore.

Now lets say we are a Khajiit NB and therefore have to drop Backstabber in all situations as well. What are the alternatives left? Biting Aura? NB only deal around 15% AoE damage in their regular setup. That's a 1.5% damage increase. Yea no.
What else? Wrathful Strikes or Untamed Aggression. Since we're talking DD setup, lets go with Wrathful strikes.

Sounds like a great trade, right? Some crit damage on the racial for some weapon/spell damage. But is it though?
Lets try to compare with ZOS' trusty Set Bonus Efficiency rules (SBE). From a recent patch we know that a Minor Buff is considered 2 SBE, so 1 SBE crit damage is 5%.
Khajiit's passive is worth 2.4 SBE, not terrible.
Orc/Dunmer/Altmer have 258, so that's 2 SBE.
Great, so seems like Khajiit's passive is already better (it wasn't that's why it got buffed from 10% to 12%, kek), or at least worth more than races with weapon/spell damage increases.

Well alright, now that we established a baseline for what we're looking at, Wrathful Strikes is worth 1.28 SBE, whereas Backstabber is worth 3 SBE. Do I have to mention that untamed aggression is worse?

Hmmm... interesting.

EQUIPMENT
What about equipment though? We can run something else than Kilt or Tzogvin, or Medusa, or Sul-Xan and it will be amazing! Maybe?

What all these sets have in common is crit rating though. Lets break down all of these bonuses into SBE for crit rating and damage. Then we look at why it maybe is not as easy as "you can use something else and not lose anything".
Kilt

Rating: 1250 (5.7%) -> 1.9 SBE
Damage: 10 -> 2 SBE
Total "5pc": 3.9 SBE

Tzogvin

Rating: 1770 (8.1%) -> 2.7 SBE
Damage: 10 -> 1.5 SBE (- 0.5 because can be sourced elsewhere)
Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE
potentially wasted 4pc bonus

Sul-Xan

Rating: 2160 (9.9%) -> 3.3 SBE
Damage: 12 -> 2.4 SBE
Total 5pc: 5.7 SBE

Alright, I guess we can work with that. Shouldn't be too hard to find a set that can provide similar amounts of crit, while still providing as much value in a secondary attribute that is more useful to us than Crit Damage which we have too much already.

Berserking Warrior (AY)

Rating: 2410 (11.1%) -> 3.7 SBE
Total 5pc: 3.7 SBE
Requires melee

Dragonguard Elite (DE)

Rating: 2750 (12.6%) -> 4.2 SBE
Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE
requires front or flanking
wasted 4pc bonus

Mother's Sorrow / Leviathan

Rating: 1528 (6.6%) -> 2.3 SBE
Total 5pc: 2.3 SBE
kinda bad 2pc

Of those sets, I suppose Berserking Warrior and Dragonguard elite could be alternatives, Medusa provides more crit than MS/Levi, sooo... Mkay.

Well, just not bring a crit set then and bring something else entirely, right? No, crit is what enables us to make use of crit damage in the first place. Every % of crit chance more increases our damage on average by 1.25% at crit cap.
When the set provides some crit damage as well though, that is attributed to the damage increase through that set as well, right?

Tzogvin: 8.1% * 10% = ~8.9% damage increase
Sul-Xan: 9.9% * 12% = ~11.1% damage increase
Kilt: 5.7% * 10% = ~6.3% damage increase

These are all contributing to a nicer damage multiplier for your crits and basically affect all of your damage.

That obviously is true for spell/weapon damage as well. So lets just quickly look at a few options.
Yandir

Damage: 410 -> 3.7 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~533)
pontentially wasted perfected bonus on mag

Diamond's Victory (on that one class that still can easily use it)

Damage: 437 -> 3.4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~568)
since Waking Flame it is not really usable by majority mag classes anymore, have not looked at stam myself

Siroria

Damage: 520 -> 4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~676)
max mag lines are pretty bad, so not even an option for stam.

Given that 6.5k spell/weapon damage is a conservative estimate in a trial group, we're looking at following generous damage increase:

Yandir: (533 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.2% damage increase
DV: (568 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.7% damage increase
Siroria: (676 + 6500) / 6500 = 10.4 % damage increase

TL;DR / CONCLUSION
It is true that it provides flexibility, the issue is that some of the sources for crit damage are some of the best sources of crit chance at the same time, which make them so freaking strong that alternatives struggle to come close. CP's alternatives are garbage for the most part, which makes not taking them a damage loss by themselves. Of course, stubbornly taking them is worse. But it gives a disadvantage to crit classes or khajiit that might be forced to move off of them to not vastly over crit.

Too lazy too proof read, take it as is, I put too much, but not enough time into it and things could totally be wrong.

thadjarvis · September 2021

A few commenters have said that DK tank's sole purpose is warhorn. That is just plain not correct:

1) Warhorn without major force is still good and you need two supports to run it

2) Stonefist: this is the number 1 reason DK tanks are beneficial to groups

3) Igneous weapons gives the group much more build flexibility to run minor heroism

4) Minor Brtualiy for stam groups

5) Engulfing for mag groups

Groups can just run 2 horns and no Sax and build for 125 without major force or use a combo of more horns and sax and build for 105. Either way two supports can be non-necros running horn.

thadjarvis · September 2021

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

No racial passive should provide a benefit that is subject to an overall cap,[/b]

Nord, Breton do.

Just like if you choose Nord on a class that already has resists (DK/Templar) you often will see some/all of the racial passive go to waste.

Likewise Cat passive has mixed best with classes with crit chance passive not crit damage. Just drop cat if you're on a crit damage class (and also want to run multiple crit damage sets).

Trixterion · September 2021

muh wrote: »

So, some of the arguments for the 125% cap I have read here is that you can just run different gear or slot different CP and basically lose nothing in the process, you just gain flexibility.

CHAMPION POINTS
Looking at alternatives for CP first, currently the way to go is [Master-At-Arms], [Deadly or Biting Aura], [Fighting Finesse] and [Backstabber or Thaumaturge], should be good enough to go with. If you run a crit class, you might decide to drop Fighting Finesse and just slot Thaumaturge all the time. Fine, sounds great, right?

Maybe not though. For example, nightblade does around 70% of direct damage, if we assume that the remaining 30% is a DoT, we roughly get a 3% damage increase from Thaumaturge. If we would get the 10% crit damage from fighting finesse though, we probably look more at conservative ~70% crit chance, so 7% damage increase. Whoops, doesn't look that great anymore.

Now lets say we are a Khajiit NB and therefore have to drop Backstabber in all situations as well. What are the alternatives left? Biting Aura? NB only deal around 15% AoE damage in their regular setup. That's a 1.5% damage increase. Yea no.
What else? Wrathful Strikes or Untamed Aggression. Since we're talking DD setup, lets go with Wrathful strikes.

Sounds like a great trade, right? Some crit damage on the racial for some weapon/spell damage. But is it though?
Lets try to compare with ZOS' trusty Set Bonus Efficiency rules (SBE). From a recent patch we know that a Minor Buff is considered 2 SBE, so 1 SBE crit damage is 5%.
Khajiit's passive is worth 2.4 SBE, not terrible.
Orc/Dunmer/Altmer have 258, so that's 2 SBE.
Great, so seems like Khajiit's passive is already better (it wasn't that's why it got buffed from 10% to 12%, kek), or at least worth more than races with weapon/spell damage increases.

Well alright, now that we established a baseline for what we're looking at, Wrathful Strikes is worth 1.28 SBE, whereas Backstabber is worth 3 SBE. Do I have to mention that untamed aggression is worse?

Hmmm... interesting.

EQUIPMENT
What about equipment though? We can run something else than Kilt or Tzogvin, or Medusa, or Sul-Xan and it will be amazing! Maybe?

What all these sets have in common is crit rating though. Lets break down all of these bonuses into SBE for crit rating and damage. Then we look at why it maybe is not as easy as "you can use something else and not lose anything".
Kilt
Rating: 1250 (5.7%) -> 1.9 SBE

Damage: 10 -> 2 SBE

Total "5pc": 3.9 SBE

Tzogvin
Rating: 1770 (8.1%) -> 2.7 SBE

Damage: 10 -> 1.5 SBE (- 0.5 because can be sourced elsewhere)

Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE

potentially wasted 4pc bonus

Sul-Xan
Rating: 2160 (9.9%) -> 3.3 SBE

Damage: 12 -> 2.4 SBE

Total 5pc: 5.7 SBE

Alright, I guess we can work with that. Shouldn't be too hard to find a set that can provide similar amounts of crit, while still providing as much value in a secondary attribute that is more useful to us than Crit Damage which we have too much already.

Berserking Warrior (AY)
Rating: 2410 (11.1%) -> 3.7 SBE

Total 5pc: 3.7 SBE

Requires melee

Dragonguard Elite (DE)
Rating: 2750 (12.6%) -> 4.2 SBE

Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE

requires front or flanking

wasted 4pc bonus

Mother's Sorrow / Leviathan
Rating: 1528 (6.6%) -> 2.3 SBE

Total 5pc: 2.3 SBE

kinda bad 2pc

Of those sets, I suppose Berserking Warrior and Dragonguard elite could be alternatives, Medusa provides more crit than MS/Levi, sooo... Mkay.

Well, just not bring a crit set then and bring something else entirely, right? No, crit is what enables us to make use of crit damage in the first place. Every % of crit chance more increases our damage on average by 1.25% at crit cap.
When the set provides some crit damage as well though, that is attributed to the damage increase through that set as well, right?
Tzogvin: 8.1% * 10% = ~8.9% damage increase

Sul-Xan: 9.9% * 12% = ~11.1% damage increase

Kilt: 5.7% * 10% = ~6.3% damage increase

These are all contributing to a nicer damage multiplier for your crits and basically affect all of your damage.

That obviously is true for spell/weapon damage as well. So lets just quickly look at a few options.
Yandir
Damage: 410 -> 3.7 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~533)

pontentially wasted perfected bonus on mag

Diamond's Victory (on that one class that still can easily use it)
Damage: 437 -> 3.4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~568)

since Waking Flame it is not really usable by majority mag classes anymore, have not looked at stam myself

Siroria
Damage: 520 -> 4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~676)

max mag lines are pretty bad, so not even an option for stam.

Given that 6.5k spell/weapon damage is a conservative estimate in a trial group, we're looking at following generous damage increase:
Yandir: (533 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.2% damage increase

DV: (568 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.7% damage increase

Siroria: (676 + 6500) / 6500 = 10.4 % damage increase

TL;DR / CONCLUSION
It is true that it provides flexibility, the issue is that some of the sources for crit damage are some of the best sources of crit chance at the same time, which make them so freaking strong that alternatives struggle to come close. CP's alternatives are garbage for the most part, which makes not taking them a damage loss by themselves. Of course, stubbornly taking them is worse. But it gives a disadvantage to crit classes or khajiit that might be forced to move off of them to not vastly over crit.

Too lazy too proof read, take it as is, I put too much, but not enough time into it and things could totally be wrong.

Honorable mention:
Kinras's Wrath
•~3% crit chance
•258 wpd and spd
•Major Force
That's like 5 points, yeah 5pc can be a waist if Group has that buff though It would be 3 points
And you have forgotten that both Mother Sorrow & Leviathan have 2 extra crit lines so total crit ratings should be 2842 therefore they will have 4.3 points, not 2.3

muh · September 2021

Trixterion wrote: »

muh wrote: »

So, some of the arguments for the 125% cap I have read here is that you can just run different gear or slot different CP and basically lose nothing in the process, you just gain flexibility.

CHAMPION POINTS
Looking at alternatives for CP first, currently the way to go is [Master-At-Arms], [Deadly or Biting Aura], [Fighting Finesse] and [Backstabber or Thaumaturge], should be good enough to go with. If you run a crit class, you might decide to drop Fighting Finesse and just slot Thaumaturge all the time. Fine, sounds great, right?

Maybe not though. For example, nightblade does around 70% of direct damage, if we assume that the remaining 30% is a DoT, we roughly get a 3% damage increase from Thaumaturge. If we would get the 10% crit damage from fighting finesse though, we probably look more at conservative ~70% crit chance, so 7% damage increase. Whoops, doesn't look that great anymore.

Now lets say we are a Khajiit NB and therefore have to drop Backstabber in all situations as well. What are the alternatives left? Biting Aura? NB only deal around 15% AoE damage in their regular setup. That's a 1.5% damage increase. Yea no.
What else? Wrathful Strikes or Untamed Aggression. Since we're talking DD setup, lets go with Wrathful strikes.

Sounds like a great trade, right? Some crit damage on the racial for some weapon/spell damage. But is it though?
Lets try to compare with ZOS' trusty Set Bonus Efficiency rules (SBE). From a recent patch we know that a Minor Buff is considered 2 SBE, so 1 SBE crit damage is 5%.
Khajiit's passive is worth 2.4 SBE, not terrible.
Orc/Dunmer/Altmer have 258, so that's 2 SBE.
Great, so seems like Khajiit's passive is already better (it wasn't that's why it got buffed from 10% to 12%, kek), or at least worth more than races with weapon/spell damage increases.

Well alright, now that we established a baseline for what we're looking at, Wrathful Strikes is worth 1.28 SBE, whereas Backstabber is worth 3 SBE. Do I have to mention that untamed aggression is worse?

Hmmm... interesting.

EQUIPMENT
What about equipment though? We can run something else than Kilt or Tzogvin, or Medusa, or Sul-Xan and it will be amazing! Maybe?

What all these sets have in common is crit rating though. Lets break down all of these bonuses into SBE for crit rating and damage. Then we look at why it maybe is not as easy as "you can use something else and not lose anything".
Kilt
Rating: 1250 (5.7%) -> 1.9 SBE

Damage: 10 -> 2 SBE

Total "5pc": 3.9 SBE

Tzogvin
Rating: 1770 (8.1%) -> 2.7 SBE

Damage: 10 -> 1.5 SBE (- 0.5 because can be sourced elsewhere)

Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE

potentially wasted 4pc bonus

Sul-Xan
Rating: 2160 (9.9%) -> 3.3 SBE

Damage: 12 -> 2.4 SBE

Total 5pc: 5.7 SBE

Alright, I guess we can work with that. Shouldn't be too hard to find a set that can provide similar amounts of crit, while still providing as much value in a secondary attribute that is more useful to us than Crit Damage which we have too much already.

Berserking Warrior (AY)
Rating: 2410 (11.1%) -> 3.7 SBE

Total 5pc: 3.7 SBE

Requires melee

Dragonguard Elite (DE)
Rating: 2750 (12.6%) -> 4.2 SBE

Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE

requires front or flanking

wasted 4pc bonus

Mother's Sorrow / Leviathan
Rating: 1528 (6.6%) -> 2.3 SBE

Total 5pc: 2.3 SBE

kinda bad 2pc

Of those sets, I suppose Berserking Warrior and Dragonguard elite could be alternatives, Medusa provides more crit than MS/Levi, sooo... Mkay.

Well, just not bring a crit set then and bring something else entirely, right? No, crit is what enables us to make use of crit damage in the first place. Every % of crit chance more increases our damage on average by 1.25% at crit cap.
When the set provides some crit damage as well though, that is attributed to the damage increase through that set as well, right?
Tzogvin: 8.1% * 10% = ~8.9% damage increase

Sul-Xan: 9.9% * 12% = ~11.1% damage increase

Kilt: 5.7% * 10% = ~6.3% damage increase

These are all contributing to a nicer damage multiplier for your crits and basically affect all of your damage.

That obviously is true for spell/weapon damage as well. So lets just quickly look at a few options.
Yandir
Damage: 410 -> 3.7 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~533)

pontentially wasted perfected bonus on mag

Diamond's Victory (on that one class that still can easily use it)
Damage: 437 -> 3.4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~568)

since Waking Flame it is not really usable by majority mag classes anymore, have not looked at stam myself

Siroria
Damage: 520 -> 4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~676)

max mag lines are pretty bad, so not even an option for stam.

Given that 6.5k spell/weapon damage is a conservative estimate in a trial group, we're looking at following generous damage increase:
Yandir: (533 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.2% damage increase

DV: (568 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.7% damage increase

Siroria: (676 + 6500) / 6500 = 10.4 % damage increase

TL;DR / CONCLUSION
It is true that it provides flexibility, the issue is that some of the sources for crit damage are some of the best sources of crit chance at the same time, which make them so freaking strong that alternatives struggle to come close. CP's alternatives are garbage for the most part, which makes not taking them a damage loss by themselves. Of course, stubbornly taking them is worse. But it gives a disadvantage to crit classes or khajiit that might be forced to move off of them to not vastly over crit.

Too lazy too proof read, take it as is, I put too much, but not enough time into it and things could totally be wrong.

Honorable mention:
Kinras's Wrath
•~3% crit chance
•258 wpd and spd
•Major Force
That's like 5 points, yeah 5pc can be a waist if Group has that buff though It would be 3 points
And you have forgotten that both Mother Sorrow & Leviathan have 2 extra crit lines so total crit ratings should be 2842 therefore they will have 4.3 points, not 2.3

I did not include any 2-4pc bonuses.

YandereGirlfriend · September 2021

muh wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

muh wrote: »

So, some of the arguments for the 125% cap I have read here is that you can just run different gear or slot different CP and basically lose nothing in the process, you just gain flexibility.

CHAMPION POINTS
Looking at alternatives for CP first, currently the way to go is [Master-At-Arms], [Deadly or Biting Aura], [Fighting Finesse] and [Backstabber or Thaumaturge], should be good enough to go with. If you run a crit class, you might decide to drop Fighting Finesse and just slot Thaumaturge all the time. Fine, sounds great, right?

Maybe not though. For example, nightblade does around 70% of direct damage, if we assume that the remaining 30% is a DoT, we roughly get a 3% damage increase from Thaumaturge. If we would get the 10% crit damage from fighting finesse though, we probably look more at conservative ~70% crit chance, so 7% damage increase. Whoops, doesn't look that great anymore.

Now lets say we are a Khajiit NB and therefore have to drop Backstabber in all situations as well. What are the alternatives left? Biting Aura? NB only deal around 15% AoE damage in their regular setup. That's a 1.5% damage increase. Yea no.
What else? Wrathful Strikes or Untamed Aggression. Since we're talking DD setup, lets go with Wrathful strikes.

Sounds like a great trade, right? Some crit damage on the racial for some weapon/spell damage. But is it though?
Lets try to compare with ZOS' trusty Set Bonus Efficiency rules (SBE). From a recent patch we know that a Minor Buff is considered 2 SBE, so 1 SBE crit damage is 5%.
Khajiit's passive is worth 2.4 SBE, not terrible.
Orc/Dunmer/Altmer have 258, so that's 2 SBE.
Great, so seems like Khajiit's passive is already better (it wasn't that's why it got buffed from 10% to 12%, kek), or at least worth more than races with weapon/spell damage increases.

Well alright, now that we established a baseline for what we're looking at, Wrathful Strikes is worth 1.28 SBE, whereas Backstabber is worth 3 SBE. Do I have to mention that untamed aggression is worse?

Hmmm... interesting.

EQUIPMENT
What about equipment though? We can run something else than Kilt or Tzogvin, or Medusa, or Sul-Xan and it will be amazing! Maybe?

What all these sets have in common is crit rating though. Lets break down all of these bonuses into SBE for crit rating and damage. Then we look at why it maybe is not as easy as "you can use something else and not lose anything".
Kilt
Rating: 1250 (5.7%) -> 1.9 SBE

Damage: 10 -> 2 SBE

Total "5pc": 3.9 SBE

Tzogvin
Rating: 1770 (8.1%) -> 2.7 SBE

Damage: 10 -> 1.5 SBE (- 0.5 because can be sourced elsewhere)

Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE

potentially wasted 4pc bonus

Sul-Xan
Rating: 2160 (9.9%) -> 3.3 SBE

Damage: 12 -> 2.4 SBE

Total 5pc: 5.7 SBE

Alright, I guess we can work with that. Shouldn't be too hard to find a set that can provide similar amounts of crit, while still providing as much value in a secondary attribute that is more useful to us than Crit Damage which we have too much already.

Berserking Warrior (AY)
Rating: 2410 (11.1%) -> 3.7 SBE

Total 5pc: 3.7 SBE

Requires melee

Dragonguard Elite (DE)
Rating: 2750 (12.6%) -> 4.2 SBE

Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE

requires front or flanking

wasted 4pc bonus

Mother's Sorrow / Leviathan
Rating: 1528 (6.6%) -> 2.3 SBE

Total 5pc: 2.3 SBE

kinda bad 2pc

Of those sets, I suppose Berserking Warrior and Dragonguard elite could be alternatives, Medusa provides more crit than MS/Levi, sooo... Mkay.

Well, just not bring a crit set then and bring something else entirely, right? No, crit is what enables us to make use of crit damage in the first place. Every % of crit chance more increases our damage on average by 1.25% at crit cap.
When the set provides some crit damage as well though, that is attributed to the damage increase through that set as well, right?
Tzogvin: 8.1% * 10% = ~8.9% damage increase

Sul-Xan: 9.9% * 12% = ~11.1% damage increase

Kilt: 5.7% * 10% = ~6.3% damage increase

These are all contributing to a nicer damage multiplier for your crits and basically affect all of your damage.

That obviously is true for spell/weapon damage as well. So lets just quickly look at a few options.
Yandir
Damage: 410 -> 3.7 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~533)

pontentially wasted perfected bonus on mag

Diamond's Victory (on that one class that still can easily use it)
Damage: 437 -> 3.4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~568)

since Waking Flame it is not really usable by majority mag classes anymore, have not looked at stam myself

Siroria
Damage: 520 -> 4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~676)

max mag lines are pretty bad, so not even an option for stam.

Given that 6.5k spell/weapon damage is a conservative estimate in a trial group, we're looking at following generous damage increase:
Yandir: (533 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.2% damage increase

DV: (568 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.7% damage increase

Siroria: (676 + 6500) / 6500 = 10.4 % damage increase

TL;DR / CONCLUSION
It is true that it provides flexibility, the issue is that some of the sources for crit damage are some of the best sources of crit chance at the same time, which make them so freaking strong that alternatives struggle to come close. CP's alternatives are garbage for the most part, which makes not taking them a damage loss by themselves. Of course, stubbornly taking them is worse. But it gives a disadvantage to crit classes or khajiit that might be forced to move off of them to not vastly over crit.

Too lazy too proof read, take it as is, I put too much, but not enough time into it and things could totally be wrong.

Honorable mention:
Kinras's Wrath
•~3% crit chance
•258 wpd and spd
•Major Force
That's like 5 points, yeah 5pc can be a waist if Group has that buff though It would be 3 points
And you have forgotten that both Mother Sorrow & Leviathan have 2 extra crit lines so total crit ratings should be 2842 therefore they will have 4.3 points, not 2.3

I did not include any 2-4pc bonuses.

I've long contended that they need to reign in Critical Damage (check) but also buff the competing damage stats up to levels that would allow them to compete directly with Critical Chance sets. That would include adding in more %-based group buffs to Weapon/Spell Damage and then also probably increasing the "power budget" for each unit bonus by ~25% or so.

hcbigdogdoghc · September 2021

My most used characters are a EC necro, a brittle warden, and a necro tank using sax

This stupid change just put all my favorite characters to the trash bin, making them utterly worthless, this is making me just want to quit like seriously

muh · September 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

muh wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

muh wrote: »

So, some of the arguments for the 125% cap I have read here is that you can just run different gear or slot different CP and basically lose nothing in the process, you just gain flexibility.

CHAMPION POINTS
Looking at alternatives for CP first, currently the way to go is [Master-At-Arms], [Deadly or Biting Aura], [Fighting Finesse] and [Backstabber or Thaumaturge], should be good enough to go with. If you run a crit class, you might decide to drop Fighting Finesse and just slot Thaumaturge all the time. Fine, sounds great, right?

Maybe not though. For example, nightblade does around 70% of direct damage, if we assume that the remaining 30% is a DoT, we roughly get a 3% damage increase from Thaumaturge. If we would get the 10% crit damage from fighting finesse though, we probably look more at conservative ~70% crit chance, so 7% damage increase. Whoops, doesn't look that great anymore.

Now lets say we are a Khajiit NB and therefore have to drop Backstabber in all situations as well. What are the alternatives left? Biting Aura? NB only deal around 15% AoE damage in their regular setup. That's a 1.5% damage increase. Yea no.
What else? Wrathful Strikes or Untamed Aggression. Since we're talking DD setup, lets go with Wrathful strikes.

Sounds like a great trade, right? Some crit damage on the racial for some weapon/spell damage. But is it though?
Lets try to compare with ZOS' trusty Set Bonus Efficiency rules (SBE). From a recent patch we know that a Minor Buff is considered 2 SBE, so 1 SBE crit damage is 5%.
Khajiit's passive is worth 2.4 SBE, not terrible.
Orc/Dunmer/Altmer have 258, so that's 2 SBE.
Great, so seems like Khajiit's passive is already better (it wasn't that's why it got buffed from 10% to 12%, kek), or at least worth more than races with weapon/spell damage increases.

Well alright, now that we established a baseline for what we're looking at, Wrathful Strikes is worth 1.28 SBE, whereas Backstabber is worth 3 SBE. Do I have to mention that untamed aggression is worse?

Hmmm... interesting.

EQUIPMENT
What about equipment though? We can run something else than Kilt or Tzogvin, or Medusa, or Sul-Xan and it will be amazing! Maybe?

What all these sets have in common is crit rating though. Lets break down all of these bonuses into SBE for crit rating and damage. Then we look at why it maybe is not as easy as "you can use something else and not lose anything".
Kilt
Rating: 1250 (5.7%) -> 1.9 SBE

Damage: 10 -> 2 SBE

Total "5pc": 3.9 SBE

Tzogvin
Rating: 1770 (8.1%) -> 2.7 SBE

Damage: 10 -> 1.5 SBE (- 0.5 because can be sourced elsewhere)

Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE

potentially wasted 4pc bonus

Sul-Xan
Rating: 2160 (9.9%) -> 3.3 SBE

Damage: 12 -> 2.4 SBE

Total 5pc: 5.7 SBE

Alright, I guess we can work with that. Shouldn't be too hard to find a set that can provide similar amounts of crit, while still providing as much value in a secondary attribute that is more useful to us than Crit Damage which we have too much already.

Berserking Warrior (AY)
Rating: 2410 (11.1%) -> 3.7 SBE

Total 5pc: 3.7 SBE

Requires melee

Dragonguard Elite (DE)
Rating: 2750 (12.6%) -> 4.2 SBE

Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE

requires front or flanking

wasted 4pc bonus

Mother's Sorrow / Leviathan
Rating: 1528 (6.6%) -> 2.3 SBE

Total 5pc: 2.3 SBE

kinda bad 2pc

Of those sets, I suppose Berserking Warrior and Dragonguard elite could be alternatives, Medusa provides more crit than MS/Levi, sooo... Mkay.

Well, just not bring a crit set then and bring something else entirely, right? No, crit is what enables us to make use of crit damage in the first place. Every % of crit chance more increases our damage on average by 1.25% at crit cap.
When the set provides some crit damage as well though, that is attributed to the damage increase through that set as well, right?
Tzogvin: 8.1% * 10% = ~8.9% damage increase

Sul-Xan: 9.9% * 12% = ~11.1% damage increase

Kilt: 5.7% * 10% = ~6.3% damage increase

These are all contributing to a nicer damage multiplier for your crits and basically affect all of your damage.

That obviously is true for spell/weapon damage as well. So lets just quickly look at a few options.
Yandir
Damage: 410 -> 3.7 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~533)

pontentially wasted perfected bonus on mag

Diamond's Victory (on that one class that still can easily use it)
Damage: 437 -> 3.4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~568)

since Waking Flame it is not really usable by majority mag classes anymore, have not looked at stam myself

Siroria
Damage: 520 -> 4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~676)

max mag lines are pretty bad, so not even an option for stam.

Given that 6.5k spell/weapon damage is a conservative estimate in a trial group, we're looking at following generous damage increase:
Yandir: (533 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.2% damage increase

DV: (568 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.7% damage increase

Siroria: (676 + 6500) / 6500 = 10.4 % damage increase

TL;DR / CONCLUSION
It is true that it provides flexibility, the issue is that some of the sources for crit damage are some of the best sources of crit chance at the same time, which make them so freaking strong that alternatives struggle to come close. CP's alternatives are garbage for the most part, which makes not taking them a damage loss by themselves. Of course, stubbornly taking them is worse. But it gives a disadvantage to crit classes or khajiit that might be forced to move off of them to not vastly over crit.

Too lazy too proof read, take it as is, I put too much, but not enough time into it and things could totally be wrong.

Honorable mention:
Kinras's Wrath
•~3% crit chance
•258 wpd and spd
•Major Force
That's like 5 points, yeah 5pc can be a waist if Group has that buff though It would be 3 points
And you have forgotten that both Mother Sorrow & Leviathan have 2 extra crit lines so total crit ratings should be 2842 therefore they will have 4.3 points, not 2.3

I did not include any 2-4pc bonuses.

I've long contended that they need to reign in Critical Damage (check) but also buff the competing damage stats up to levels that would allow them to compete directly with Critical Chance sets. That would include adding in more %-based group buffs to Weapon/Spell Damage and then also probably increasing the "power budget" for each unit bonus by ~25% or so.

I am not so sure about that and not about the crit damage cap either. First of all, they kept adding more and more sources for critical damage into the game. Why are they surprised players are using it?

Secondly, it has already been the case that spell/weapon damage is a valid choice, you need to have a base to multiply with your critical hits to begin with.
For example, if a skill would deal 5000 base damage and increase 1:1 with spell/weapon damage, we have 50% crit chance and 100% critical damage.

A Dunmer/Altmer/Orc would deal on average 5258 * (1 + 50% * 100%) = 7887 damage.
A Khajiit would deal on average 5000 * (1 + 50% * 112%) = 7800 damage.

Until Waking Flame, Bahsei + Diamond's Victory + Kilt was pretty much best choice to run on almost every mag class if you were comfortable with bash weaving or were using dual wield, neither of which are crit sets. Kilt obviously only where it was possible to use.

About your last point of support sets with multiplier for spell/weapon damage. ZOS intentionally made the decision some patches ago to move away from % modifier because it was benefiting the higher end groups more than lower end groups. Which to be honest, everything does.

Introducing a cap isn't solving anything, I don't even believe that introducing a crit cap is nerfing anything. It will just cause people to build differently and spent their power budget on different things. With the 125% cap as it is, it is punishing some classes and Khajiit though. Which is a shame.
The cap in its current state is way to narrow and their idea to add more options to build for it in the future is laughable (I assume Major Brittle might be on the table). Currently it is deleting critical damage from anyone's mind when thinking about how to build their character, except for if they can or can not use a piece of gear to stay below the cap.
Currently it is doing the exact opposite of what they are supposedly trying to achieve, it does not open up build diversity, it is restricting it. At least in my opinion.

BattleAxe · September 2021

karekiz wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

If you really want to keep running mostly what you are running now Take of Kilt and wear malacath and stack to 175%. Then you will be at the 125% cap after the Malacath penalty and you get 16% more damage. Win, win.

NOPE.

I WANNA WEAR THE SAME THING.

So you are unwilling to adapt your build to the latest patch and basically wanting things catered to you and your specific build? The whole point of the cap is to make investing in other offensive stats viable. You are at 118% crit damage ok now invest in weapon damage or raising critical strike chance. I’m not a fan of a meta but it’s a fact of mmorpg life so will I go 100% in on meta? To a point yes but I will still tweak the builds specifically for my play style

mzprx · September 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

so Khajiits actually have less flexibility to adjust. there are sets that we simply can't use. because we are Khajiits..

There are sets that you are not forced to use now. And a whole game worth of sets that you now have available to you to optimize your build around.

yes, sure, plenty of sets. but being restricted just because of my race choice in what i actually can wear or not is ridiculous. imagine if they capped weapon or spell damage and all High Elves or Dark Elves would have to drop Siroria, Bahsei or even Julianos because that would put them over the cap. but, you can argue, there are tons of other sets, rejoice! you can start building your character in a different way! use Seducer instead of Bahsei and you'll be fine! every other race can still use what they're using except you, but that is OK, right?

Trixterion · September 2021

muh wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

muh wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

muh wrote: »

So, some of the arguments for the 125% cap I have read here is that you can just run different gear or slot different CP and basically lose nothing in the process, you just gain flexibility.

CHAMPION POINTS
Looking at alternatives for CP first, currently the way to go is [Master-At-Arms], [Deadly or Biting Aura], [Fighting Finesse] and [Backstabber or Thaumaturge], should be good enough to go with. If you run a crit class, you might decide to drop Fighting Finesse and just slot Thaumaturge all the time. Fine, sounds great, right?

Maybe not though. For example, nightblade does around 70% of direct damage, if we assume that the remaining 30% is a DoT, we roughly get a 3% damage increase from Thaumaturge. If we would get the 10% crit damage from fighting finesse though, we probably look more at conservative ~70% crit chance, so 7% damage increase. Whoops, doesn't look that great anymore.

Now lets say we are a Khajiit NB and therefore have to drop Backstabber in all situations as well. What are the alternatives left? Biting Aura? NB only deal around 15% AoE damage in their regular setup. That's a 1.5% damage increase. Yea no.
What else? Wrathful Strikes or Untamed Aggression. Since we're talking DD setup, lets go with Wrathful strikes.

Sounds like a great trade, right? Some crit damage on the racial for some weapon/spell damage. But is it though?
Lets try to compare with ZOS' trusty Set Bonus Efficiency rules (SBE). From a recent patch we know that a Minor Buff is considered 2 SBE, so 1 SBE crit damage is 5%.
Khajiit's passive is worth 2.4 SBE, not terrible.
Orc/Dunmer/Altmer have 258, so that's 2 SBE.
Great, so seems like Khajiit's passive is already better (it wasn't that's why it got buffed from 10% to 12%, kek), or at least worth more than races with weapon/spell damage increases.

Well alright, now that we established a baseline for what we're looking at, Wrathful Strikes is worth 1.28 SBE, whereas Backstabber is worth 3 SBE. Do I have to mention that untamed aggression is worse?

Hmmm... interesting.

EQUIPMENT
What about equipment though? We can run something else than Kilt or Tzogvin, or Medusa, or Sul-Xan and it will be amazing! Maybe?

What all these sets have in common is crit rating though. Lets break down all of these bonuses into SBE for crit rating and damage. Then we look at why it maybe is not as easy as "you can use something else and not lose anything".
Kilt
Rating: 1250 (5.7%) -> 1.9 SBE

Damage: 10 -> 2 SBE

Total "5pc": 3.9 SBE

Tzogvin
Rating: 1770 (8.1%) -> 2.7 SBE

Damage: 10 -> 1.5 SBE (- 0.5 because can be sourced elsewhere)

Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE

potentially wasted 4pc bonus

Sul-Xan
Rating: 2160 (9.9%) -> 3.3 SBE

Damage: 12 -> 2.4 SBE

Total 5pc: 5.7 SBE

Alright, I guess we can work with that. Shouldn't be too hard to find a set that can provide similar amounts of crit, while still providing as much value in a secondary attribute that is more useful to us than Crit Damage which we have too much already.

Berserking Warrior (AY)
Rating: 2410 (11.1%) -> 3.7 SBE

Total 5pc: 3.7 SBE

Requires melee

Dragonguard Elite (DE)
Rating: 2750 (12.6%) -> 4.2 SBE

Total 5pc: 4.2 SBE

requires front or flanking

wasted 4pc bonus

Mother's Sorrow / Leviathan
Rating: 1528 (6.6%) -> 2.3 SBE

Total 5pc: 2.3 SBE

kinda bad 2pc

Of those sets, I suppose Berserking Warrior and Dragonguard elite could be alternatives, Medusa provides more crit than MS/Levi, sooo... Mkay.

Well, just not bring a crit set then and bring something else entirely, right? No, crit is what enables us to make use of crit damage in the first place. Every % of crit chance more increases our damage on average by 1.25% at crit cap.
When the set provides some crit damage as well though, that is attributed to the damage increase through that set as well, right?
Tzogvin: 8.1% * 10% = ~8.9% damage increase

Sul-Xan: 9.9% * 12% = ~11.1% damage increase

Kilt: 5.7% * 10% = ~6.3% damage increase

These are all contributing to a nicer damage multiplier for your crits and basically affect all of your damage.

That obviously is true for spell/weapon damage as well. So lets just quickly look at a few options.
Yandir
Damage: 410 -> 3.7 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~533)

pontentially wasted perfected bonus on mag

Diamond's Victory (on that one class that still can easily use it)
Damage: 437 -> 3.4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~568)

since Waking Flame it is not really usable by majority mag classes anymore, have not looked at stam myself

Siroria
Damage: 520 -> 4 SBE (w/ maj/minor buff ~676)

max mag lines are pretty bad, so not even an option for stam.

Given that 6.5k spell/weapon damage is a conservative estimate in a trial group, we're looking at following generous damage increase:
Yandir: (533 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.2% damage increase

DV: (568 + 6500) / 6500 = 8.7% damage increase

Siroria: (676 + 6500) / 6500 = 10.4 % damage increase

TL;DR / CONCLUSION
It is true that it provides flexibility, the issue is that some of the sources for crit damage are some of the best sources of crit chance at the same time, which make them so freaking strong that alternatives struggle to come close. CP's alternatives are garbage for the most part, which makes not taking them a damage loss by themselves. Of course, stubbornly taking them is worse. But it gives a disadvantage to crit classes or khajiit that might be forced to move off of them to not vastly over crit.

Too lazy too proof read, take it as is, I put too much, but not enough time into it and things could totally be wrong.

Honorable mention:
Kinras's Wrath
•~3% crit chance
•258 wpd and spd
•Major Force
That's like 5 points, yeah 5pc can be a waist if Group has that buff though It would be 3 points
And you have forgotten that both Mother Sorrow & Leviathan have 2 extra crit lines so total crit ratings should be 2842 therefore they will have 4.3 points, not 2.3

I did not include any 2-4pc bonuses.

I've long contended that they need to reign in Critical Damage (check) but also buff the competing damage stats up to levels that would allow them to compete directly with Critical Chance sets. That would include adding in more %-based group buffs to Weapon/Spell Damage and then also probably increasing the "power budget" for each unit bonus by ~25% or so.

I am not so sure about that and not about the crit damage cap either. First of all, they kept adding more and more sources for critical damage into the game. Why are they surprised players are using it?

Secondly, it has already been the case that spell/weapon damage is a valid choice, you need to have a base to multiply with your critical hits to begin with.
For example, if a skill would deal 5000 base damage and increase 1:1 with spell/weapon damage, we have 50% crit chance and 100% critical damage.
A Dunmer/Altmer/Orc would deal on average 5258 * (1 + 50% * 100%) = 7887 damage.

A Khajiit would deal on average 5000 * (1 + 50% * 112%) = 7800 damage.

Until Waking Flame, Bahsei + Diamond's Victory + Kilt was pretty much best choice to run on almost every mag class if you were comfortable with bash weaving or were using dual wield, neither of which are crit sets. Kilt obviously only where it was possible to use.

About your last point of support sets with multiplier for spell/weapon damage. ZOS intentionally made the decision some patches ago to move away from % modifier because it was benefiting the higher end groups more than lower end groups. Which to be honest, everything does.

Introducing a cap isn't solving anything, I don't even believe that introducing a crit cap is nerfing anything. It will just cause people to build differently and spent their power budget on different things. With the 125% cap as it is, it is punishing some classes and Khajiit though. Which is a shame.
The cap in its current state is way to narrow and their idea to add more options to build for it in the future is laughable (I assume Major Brittle might be on the table). Currently it is deleting critical damage from anyone's mind when thinking about how to build their character, except for if they can or can not use a piece of gear to stay below the cap.
Currently it is doing the exact opposite of what they are supposedly trying to achieve, it does not open up build diversity, it is restricting it. At least in my opinion.

I don't know if it's punishing my Brittle Frostden enough:
•with my live build cmx on parse with trial dummy says that I have 100 crit damage(however it doesn't count my class passive for some reason so technically I have 110%)
•in scenario where EC is present I will reach the cap, and if it isn't - just slot Backstabber
•moreover I can drop trap for Tzogvin and yeah, I will lose some pen, like 1% of crit, some sustain(I have plenty of it, since I run poison Shalks), however in return I will get 4% of wpd and spd, if I'd wish of course.
•I cannot wear anything but Frostbite(IMHO the whole reason this build even exists), Ice staves from Dragonstar and Maelstrom; that limits me to one 5-piece bonus and I am limited to something that will boost my crit, ideally I need at least 60% crit chance and I potentially have a room for 10% crit damage.
As you can see, I haven't had any room besides 1 5-piece to flex and I won't after the crit cap, moreover the room is gonna stay the same. Yeah, you can say that with 125% cap I could have gone over 150% with ease, or even 166%(if I'll race change), or even 171%(if I'll use shadow), or even 183% (with full dedication). However that will be a straight line without any branches, I will have only ONE way to build my Frostden and it's gonna be a meta for my build and anything besides it will result in potential dps loss. I would prefer a crit cap in any form so that I'll know when should I stop investing and start building up

Trixterion · September 2021

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

so Khajiits actually have less flexibility to adjust. there are sets that we simply can't use. because we are Khajiits..

There are sets that you are not forced to use now. And a whole game worth of sets that you now have available to you to optimize your build around.

yes, sure, plenty of sets. but being restricted just because of my race choice in what i actually can wear or not is ridiculous. imagine if they capped weapon or spell damage and all High Elves or Dark Elves would have to drop Siroria, Bahsei or even Julianos because that would put them over the cap. but, you can argue, there are tons of other sets, rejoice! you can start building your character in a different way! use Seducer instead of Bahsei and you'll be fine! every other race can still use what they're using except you, but that is OK, right?

Perfected Bahsey has 258 spd, if that's too much they have to drop it ,they WON'T, because unique extra 15% damage done is nuts in comparison with waisted 258 spd

BejaProphet · September 2021

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

so Khajiits actually have less flexibility to adjust. there are sets that we simply can't use. because we are Khajiits..

There are sets that you are not forced to use now. And a whole game worth of sets that you now have available to you to optimize your build around.

yes, sure, plenty of sets. but being restricted just because of my race choice in what i actually can wear or not is ridiculous. imagine if they capped weapon or spell damage and all High Elves or Dark Elves would have to drop Siroria, Bahsei or even Julianos because that would put them over the cap. but, you can argue, there are tons of other sets, rejoice! you can start building your character in a different way! use Seducer instead of Bahsei and you'll be fine! every other race can still use what they're using except you, but that is OK, right?

So like capping armor resistances and giving Nords resistances in their passives?

jaws343 · September 2021

BejaProphet wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

so Khajiits actually have less flexibility to adjust. there are sets that we simply can't use. because we are Khajiits..

There are sets that you are not forced to use now. And a whole game worth of sets that you now have available to you to optimize your build around.

yes, sure, plenty of sets. but being restricted just because of my race choice in what i actually can wear or not is ridiculous. imagine if they capped weapon or spell damage and all High Elves or Dark Elves would have to drop Siroria, Bahsei or even Julianos because that would put them over the cap. but, you can argue, there are tons of other sets, rejoice! you can start building your character in a different way! use Seducer instead of Bahsei and you'll be fine! every other race can still use what they're using except you, but that is OK, right?

So like capping armor resistances and giving Nords resistances in their passives?

Seriously.

And honestly, if they did cap spell damage, and seducer was a viable alternative for those specific races, yeah, absolutely I would run it because it would boost my sustain. And because running spell damage over the cap would be dumb.

Rebiludo · September 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

If you really want to keep running mostly what you are running now Take of Kilt and wear malacath and stack to 175%. Then you will be at the 125% cap after the Malacath penalty and you get 16% more damage. Win, win.

I had the same idea and wondered if it works. Is the malacath penalty additive or multiplicative with the damage crit bonus ?

jaws343 · September 2021

Rebiludo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

If you really want to keep running mostly what you are running now Take of Kilt and wear malacath and stack to 175%. Then you will be at the 125% cap after the Malacath penalty and you get 16% more damage. Win, win.

I had the same idea and wondered if it works. Is the malacath penalty additive or multiplicative with the damage crit bonus ?

As far as it seems, it just directly subtracts 50% from your final crit damage %.

divnyi · September 2021

Rebiludo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

If you really want to keep running mostly what you are running now Take of Kilt and wear malacath and stack to 175%. Then you will be at the 125% cap after the Malacath penalty and you get 16% more damage. Win, win.

I had the same idea and wondered if it works. Is the malacath penalty additive or multiplicative with the damage crit bonus ?

2.25*0.7+0.3 = 1.875
2.75*0.7+0.3 = 2.225
2.225/1.875 = 1.18666666667

Fun thing, this is pretty close. Might be viable substitute, at least before you gather new build.