So how is the crit damage cap most likely to be reached (or not) in PvE?

FrancisCrawford

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...You wouldn't use the best gear that you have because it is no longer the best gear for the new meta. Just like any meta shift, the 125% cap is going to require reworking gear and skills to find the new balance. This was the intent of them putting in the cap, to limit players stacking crit damage and provide avenues for other damage boosting sets/abilities to make it into builds.

that is not necessarily true. it is still the best gear for everyone who is not a Khajiit. you see, i shouldn't be punished because i want to play as a certain race when every other race is off the hook, so to speak. they (ZOS) are trying to promote the "play as you want" gameplay and i do want to play as i want. but introducing the cap at 125%, taking away critical chance and giving us critical damage as a medium armour passive just one patch ago, putting all the gear into the game that increases critical damage, someone at ZOS didn't think this through..

No racial passive should provide a benefit that is subject to an overall cap,

mzprx

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

...Then use it for the dot and not for the buff

sure thing. but, again, the critical damage increase is built in that ability. so i still get it. put a DK tank in my group and i am over the cap. so either the DK tank goes or i go..

jaws343 wrote: »

...But if the gear puts you over the cap, then it is not the best gear available for that build. So drop Sul Zan, drop Harpooner, drop trap beast. All are optional with the cap. Find damage elsewhere. It's not that difficult to adjust for this. And trying to force the same build from live into this is not really a valid strategy.

it's not just the gear. it's me being a Khajiit with 12% critical damage bonus built in my racial passive. so everyone else who isn't a Khajiit can freely use those gear sets but not me. with the cap at 125% i'm going to be punished because i want to be a Khajiit stamina Templar..

i also want to point out that who in their right mind would stop using their 8th most damaging ability (Trap), or the Kilt, or one of the best Trial sets available and start using other gear that is inferior? what is the point of having a Mythic item that everyone else can use but me? what is the point of doing Trials when i can't use the gear i get from there? you see, deliberately lowering my damage is not something that will make a Trial group want to take me for a ride. but i will have to do it because of the 125% cap..

jaws343

mzprx wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

...Then use it for the dot and not for the buff

sure thing. but, again, the critical damage increase is built in that ability. so i still get it. put a DK tank in my group and i am over the cap. so either the DK tank goes or i go..

jaws343 wrote: »

...But if the gear puts you over the cap, then it is not the best gear available for that build. So drop Sul Zan, drop Harpooner, drop trap beast. All are optional with the cap. Find damage elsewhere. It's not that difficult to adjust for this. And trying to force the same build from live into this is not really a valid strategy.

it's not just the gear. it's me being a Khajiit with 12% critical damage bonus built in my racial passive. so everyone else who isn't a Khajiit can freely use those gear sets but not me. with the cap at 125% i'm going to be punished because i want to be a Khajiit stamina Templar..

i also want to point out that who in their right mind would stop using their 8th most damaging ability (Trap), or the Kilt, or one of the best Trial sets available and start using other gear that is inferior? what is the point of having a Mythic item that everyone else can use but me? what is the point of doing Trials when i can't use the gear i get from there? you see, deliberately lowering my damage is not something that will make a Trial group want to take me for a ride. but i will have to do it because of the 125% cap..

If kilt puts you over the cap, then kilt is literally an inferior set compared to something else that provides more damage to your build. And 8th most damaging ability? If it's 8th, I am sure the 9th ability will be fine.

As to being a Khajiit. Having that base crit damage actually allows you to vary your build rather than running the same cookie cutter setup as every other class. I don't see the issue.

Sanguinor2

mzprx wrote: »

it's not just the gear. it's me being a Khajiit with 12% critical damage bonus built in my racial passive. so everyone else who isn't a Khajiit can freely use those gear sets but not me. with the cap at 125% i'm going to be punished because i want to be a Khajiit stamina Templar..

i also want to point out that who in their right mind would stop using their 8th most damaging ability (Trap), or the Kilt, or one of the best Trial sets available and start using other gear that is inferior? what is the point of having a Mythic item that everyone else can use but me? what is the point of doing Trials when i can't use the gear i get from there? you see, deliberately lowering my damage is not something that will make a Trial group want to take me for a ride. but i will have to do it because of the 125% cap..

Everyone goes through that depending on meta changes. Thats just what you will have to deal with if you really want to play the best you can. Thats why I had 12 chars ready when I still did trifecta runs. If you want to keep playing your khajit stamplar you will just have to find some way to adapt. You can complain about it but thats the way it has always been.

Trixterion

mzprx wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

...Then use it for the dot and not for the buff

sure thing. but, again, the critical damage increase is built in that ability. so i still get it. put a DK tank in my group and i am over the cap. so either the DK tank goes or i go..

jaws343 wrote: »

...But if the gear puts you over the cap, then it is not the best gear available for that build. So drop Sul Zan, drop Harpooner, drop trap beast. All are optional with the cap. Find damage elsewhere. It's not that difficult to adjust for this. And trying to force the same build from live into this is not really a valid strategy.

it's not just the gear. it's me being a Khajiit with 12% critical damage bonus built in my racial passive. so everyone else who isn't a Khajiit can freely use those gear sets but not me. with the cap at 125% i'm going to be punished because i want to be a Khajiit stamina Templar..

i also want to point out that who in their right mind would stop using their 8th most damaging ability (Trap), or the Kilt, or one of the best Trial sets available and start using other gear that is inferior? what is the point of having a Mythic item that everyone else can use but me? what is the point of doing Trials when i can't use the gear i get from there? you see, deliberately lowering my damage is not something that will make a Trial group want to take me for a ride. but i will have to do it because of the 125% cap..

Let me do the Math for you.
We need 75% extra therefore:
•Khajiit +12%=12%(no other option here).
•Templar +10%=22%(no other option here).
•7 medium +14%=36%(no other option here, however we still have 40% to go)
•Horn and trap +30%(we have to deal with it as horn won't be dropped at all, however it could be used as a resource buff with longer intervals for sure[though I'm not an Oracle therefore there will be 2 possible outcomes and calculations])=66%(further this option will be marked as●)
• Just trap if horn will be used only as resource buff +10%=46%(further this option will be marked as○)
●Now we have to get extra 10% via Kilt/Sul Zan/Fighting Finesse and we will be left with 1~3% OverCap. JUST LEAVE THIS FOR MIN-MAXERS, you can live with it because ZOS designed 12% and 14% bonuses and that is the flaw for sure.
○If horn will be left for the stats only, you can use Kilt & Sul Zan & Fighting Finesse with the same 3% OverCap, leave this as it is.
From now on we need Elemental Catalyst only for Mag Compositions as they don't wear full Medium and if they use Kilt, they go almost like you 2% OverCap, they can live with that, or alternatively noone needs Elemental Catalyst and Mag just go with backstabbing. Brittle will be present as an option for those who are not Templar/Warden/Nightblade/Khajiit.

twing1_

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...I don't think I understand this part. They put in a bunch of gear that increases crit damage to provide options, and different ways to approach crit damage. Obviously not for everyone to stack all of the sets as much as possible. Which is why they are doing the cap. They are still keeping the options in place though, because that is the point of having sets with different sources of crit damage, options. Not requirements.

a couple of posts above i mentioned this -

Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
10% from Minor Force
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive

all this puts me at 118%, 7% below the cap without slotting Backstabber and Fighting Finesse. so if my group wants to use a DK tank, Catalyst Necromancer and/or Brittle Warden i will have to choose other gear that is not as strong as this one or i will go over the cap and that would be a waste. it's the same as penetration. let's say you have a couple of stamina DDs in your Trial group. you have to choose gear sets that provide more penetration because stamina DDs do not have penetration built in the armour passive. which means your magicka DDs are going to be over the cap. and you don't want that. so you have to choose - either kick all stamina DDs (which is, sadly, always the case nowadays, no one wants us in their Trial group) or your magicka DDs have to use weaker gear, literally deliberately gimp themselves so they don't get over the penetration cap. so here's me, sitting just below the critical damage cap. my group wants to use a DK tank plus Catalyst Necromancer for other players to reach the critical damage cap, as ther are magicka DDs (for example). i can then go home or start gimping meself in order to not go over the cap. so i have the best gear that i can have (or one of the best) but i can not use it and have to look for weaker gear sets if i want to participate in the group festivities, which also means i will do a lot less damage and they will ask me politely to buzz off. or i can use it, but it will be wasted on me 'cause i will be over the cap..

so it's not about certain gear sets being "meta". it's about me having the best gear available in my inventory and being forced to not use it..

It seems to me they finally found a way to make certain item sets not universally BiS, and added diversity so that different races/builds will benefit more from different item sets than other races or builds.

This is good for the health of the game.

No more are the days of grinding for one or two gear sets that can be used BiS with all of my different characters. Now I can finally branch out and experiment with different sets, and find the best combination for my particular class and race set up.

Because khajit have an inherent bonus to critical damage, they are actually the race with the most flexibility in terms of branching out of the critical damage stat, giving you more investment room into other stats.

Sure, if you value stacking critical damage over everything else, nothing is stopping you from doing so. It's a soft cap, not a hard cap. You can still equip the gear or cp stars that u want, it just won't be optimal. Similar to someone stacking penetration above the recommended 18.2k.

mzprx

jaws343 wrote: »

...If kilt puts you over the cap, then kilt is literally an inferior set compared to something else that provides more damage to your build. And 8th most damaging ability? If it's 8th, I am sure the 9th ability will be fine.

As to being a Khajiit. Having that base crit damage actually allows you to vary your build rather than running the same cookie cutter setup as every other class. I don't see the issue.

as i have mentioned before - what is the point of having a Mythic item when you can't use it? what is the point of running Trials when you can't use the gear you get from there? why is the gear BIS (or very close to it) for every other race/class but me? don't you see that this is not about varying my build or having other options, this is about deliberately using gear that is weaker for everyone else but me so i don't go over the critical damage cap?

twing1_ wrote: »

...It seems to me they finally found a way to make certain item sets not universally BiS, and added diversity so that different races/builds will benefit more from different item sets than other races or builds.

This is good for the health of the game.

No more are the days of grinding for one or two gear sets that can be used BiS with all of my different characters. Now I can finally branch out and experiment with different sets, and find the best combination for my particular class and race set up.

Because khajit have an inherent bonus to critical damage, they are actually the race with the most flexibility in terms of branching out of the critical damage stat, giving you more investment room into other stats.

Sure, if you value stacking critical damage over everything else, nothing is stopping you from doing so. It's a soft cap, not a hard cap. You can still equip the gear or cp stars that u want, it just won't be optimal. Similar to someone stacking penetration above the recommended 18.2k.

this is extremely bad for the game. this makes certain combinations of classes and races undesirable. i fail to see the positive in that. i have never heard of a game that would force this upon players. as a Khajiit i do not have more options in regard to CP slottables, i am forced to choose anything but Backstabber and Fighting Finesse. i am forced to use weaker gear that i'd like to use when there are certain classes wearing certain gear in my group. or they will have to use weaker gear. or one of us will have to leave/change character. this makes all the "play as you want" statement not really true..

the best damage i can do ATM is while using Sul-Xan and the Kilt. any other gear combination will do less damage than that. granted, there may be other sets i haven't farmed yet that could get me similar, or perhaps even better results. i will go and farm those after the patch (except Relequen, i despise that Trial with passion, so i will never get the full set). but, again, this is NOT "play how you want", this is "play how you're forced to play". which is the exact opposite what ZOS is trying to tell us..

Trixterion

"this is extremely bad for the game. this makes certain combinations of classes and races undesirable. i fail to see the positive in that. i have never heard of a game that would force this upon players. as a Khajiit i do not have more options in regard to CP slottables, i am forced to choose anything but Backstabber and Fighting Finesse. i am forced to use weaker gear that i'd like to use when there are certain classes wearing certain gear in my group. or they will have to use weaker gear. or one of us will have to leave/change character. this makes all the "play as you want" statement not really true..

the best damage i can do ATM is while using Sul-Xan and the Kilt. any other gear combination will do less damage than that. granted, there may be other sets i haven't farmed yet that could get me similar, or perhaps even better results. i will go and farm those after the patch (except Relequen, i despise that Trial with passion, so i will never get the full set). but, again, this is NOT "play how you want", this is "play how you're forced to play". which is the exact opposite what ZOS is trying to tell us.."
Have you read my calculations? Because all you have to sacrifice is Backstabber if horn will be used only for the resource buff, or you suppose that in Maelstrom, solo play, random Dungeons or PVP anyone will buff you with horn? As a Khajiit Templar YOU will be able to reach crit cap and play 80% of content with it, while 60% of players will have to ask for Elemental Catalyst, or try to backstabbing. The Elemental Catalyst will be forced to run in mag Compositions(just like alcosh in stam) and all YOU have to do differently from current build is to replace your Backstabber for something else and you are golden - is that too much for you?

jaws343

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...If kilt puts you over the cap, then kilt is literally an inferior set compared to something else that provides more damage to your build. And 8th most damaging ability? If it's 8th, I am sure the 9th ability will be fine.

As to being a Khajiit. Having that base crit damage actually allows you to vary your build rather than running the same cookie cutter setup as every other class. I don't see the issue.

as i have mentioned before - what is the point of having a Mythic item when you can't use it? what is the point of running Trials when you can't use the gear you get from there? why is the gear BIS (or very close to it) for every other race/class but me? don't you see that this is not about varying my build or having other options, this is about deliberately using gear that is weaker for everyone else but me so i don't go over the critical damage cap?

twing1_ wrote: »

...It seems to me they finally found a way to make certain item sets not universally BiS, and added diversity so that different races/builds will benefit more from different item sets than other races or builds.

This is good for the health of the game.

No more are the days of grinding for one or two gear sets that can be used BiS with all of my different characters. Now I can finally branch out and experiment with different sets, and find the best combination for my particular class and race set up.

Because khajit have an inherent bonus to critical damage, they are actually the race with the most flexibility in terms of branching out of the critical damage stat, giving you more investment room into other stats.

Sure, if you value stacking critical damage over everything else, nothing is stopping you from doing so. It's a soft cap, not a hard cap. You can still equip the gear or cp stars that u want, it just won't be optimal. Similar to someone stacking penetration above the recommended 18.2k.

this is extremely bad for the game. this makes certain combinations of classes and races undesirable. i fail to see the positive in that. i have never heard of a game that would force this upon players. as a Khajiit i do not have more options in regard to CP slottables, i am forced to choose anything but Backstabber and Fighting Finesse. i am forced to use weaker gear that i'd like to use when there are certain classes wearing certain gear in my group. or they will have to use weaker gear. or one of us will have to leave/change character. this makes all the "play as you want" statement not really true..

the best damage i can do ATM is while using Sul-Xan and the Kilt. any other gear combination will do less damage than that. granted, there may be other sets i haven't farmed yet that could get me similar, or perhaps even better results. i will go and farm those after the patch (except Relequen, i despise that Trial with passion, so i will never get the full set). but, again, this is NOT "play how you want", this is "play how you're forced to play". which is the exact opposite what ZOS is trying to tell us..

I really don't understand your logic here.

You say that if you don't run these sets you will be weaker.

Well, that is true ON LIVE. Not in the next patch.

On live you have to wear those to get the most damage from your build.

Next patch, you don't have to wear those to get the most damage from your build. You can replace those with other sets that will add more damage.

In fact, I'd wager you would actually be stronger than all of the builds forced to run all of the the things that push them to 125%.

For real, even 100 weapon damage from CP slottable instead of running the crit damage slottable would literally be more damage than all of the people who had to stack everything to get to 125%. You will be stronger than them because you have flexibility to run more sets/CP/skill combinations beyond the 125% cap of crit damage, while they still may need to run more of what is already being run to reach it.

Think of it this way with a visual of sorts:

Current Patch: Everyone is running the same setup with the following components all the same for every build:
A, B, C, D, E

Next patch, everyone is capped at crit damage. But Khajiit's get a boost up on crit damage with their passive.

So, everyone else has to run A, B, C, D still from the previous patch to reach the cap. They have a small option to change E up to have more damage that isn't crit damage.

But the Khajiit only has to run A,B, and C from the previous patch. Which leaves them with D and E where they can do more for damage.

The base crit damage that Khajiit get provides them with extra room to tailor the build to be stronger, while everyone else has less to work with after reach the crit damage cap.

jaws343

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...If kilt puts you over the cap, then kilt is literally an inferior set compared to something else that provides more damage to your build. And 8th most damaging ability? If it's 8th, I am sure the 9th ability will be fine.

As to being a Khajiit. Having that base crit damage actually allows you to vary your build rather than running the same cookie cutter setup as every other class. I don't see the issue.

as i have mentioned before - what is the point of having a Mythic item when you can't use it? what is the point of running Trials when you can't use the gear you get from there? why is the gear BIS (or very close to it) for every other race/class but me? don't you see that this is not about varying my build or having other options, this is about deliberately using gear that is weaker for everyone else but me so i don't go over the critical damage cap?

twing1_ wrote: »

...It seems to me they finally found a way to make certain item sets not universally BiS, and added diversity so that different races/builds will benefit more from different item sets than other races or builds.

This is good for the health of the game.

No more are the days of grinding for one or two gear sets that can be used BiS with all of my different characters. Now I can finally branch out and experiment with different sets, and find the best combination for my particular class and race set up.

Because khajit have an inherent bonus to critical damage, they are actually the race with the most flexibility in terms of branching out of the critical damage stat, giving you more investment room into other stats.

Sure, if you value stacking critical damage over everything else, nothing is stopping you from doing so. It's a soft cap, not a hard cap. You can still equip the gear or cp stars that u want, it just won't be optimal. Similar to someone stacking penetration above the recommended 18.2k.

this is extremely bad for the game. this makes certain combinations of classes and races undesirable. i fail to see the positive in that. i have never heard of a game that would force this upon players. as a Khajiit i do not have more options in regard to CP slottables, i am forced to choose anything but Backstabber and Fighting Finesse. i am forced to use weaker gear that i'd like to use when there are certain classes wearing certain gear in my group. or they will have to use weaker gear. or one of us will have to leave/change character. this makes all the "play as you want" statement not really true..

the best damage i can do ATM is while using Sul-Xan and the Kilt. any other gear combination will do less damage than that. granted, there may be other sets i haven't farmed yet that could get me similar, or perhaps even better results. i will go and farm those after the patch (except Relequen, i despise that Trial with passion, so i will never get the full set). but, again, this is NOT "play how you want", this is "play how you're forced to play". which is the exact opposite what ZOS is trying to tell us..

Also, if you are chasing the meta, it will always be "play the best combination of gear/skills possible to reach the absolute best dps you can." The meta changes regularly. You can chase it, or not. That is play how you want. Zos isn't forcing you to change your build, they are just making less optimal. Which is literally what they do every time they shake up the meta. And you can adapt, or just run Mothers Sorrow and False God for like 7 straight patches like I do because I am not bothered by eeking out the perfect amount of DPS every patch as long as I am still viable.

mzprx

Trixterion wrote: »

...Have you read my calculations? Because all you have to sacrifice is Backstabber if horn will be used only for the resource buff, or you suppose that in Maelstrom, solo play, random Dungeons or PVP anyone will buff you with horn? As a Khajiit Templar YOU will be able to reach crit cap and play 80% of content with it, while 60% of players will have to ask for Elemental Catalyst, or try to backstabbing. The Elemental Catalyst will be forced to run in mag Compositions(just like alcosh in stam) and all YOU have to do differently from current build is to replace your Backstabber for something else and you are golden - is that too much for you?

yes, i did read your calculations. have you read mine? i shall repeat -

Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
10% from Minor Force
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive

all this is 118% without slotting Backstabber or Fighting Finesse. which means that if i want to use the same gear after the cap introduction and, Akatosh forbid, i get a DK tank, Catalyst Necromancer or Brittle Warden in my group i will be over the cap. in which case i will be forced to use different, weaker gear, go home/change character or they will have to do the same (DK tanks, Catalyst Necromancers, Brittle Wardens). so i don't have to sacrifice just Backstabber. i have to sacrifice much more than that..

jaws343 wrote: »

...I really don't understand your logic here.

You say that if you don't run these sets you will be weaker.

Well, that is true ON LIVE. Not in the next patch.

On live you have to wear those to get the most damage from your build.

Next patch, you don't have to wear those to get the most damage from your build. You can replace those with other sets that will add more damage....

this is only partially true. let me try to be clearer, sometimes i don't fully explain my train of thoughts, my apologies..

the sets that i'm wearing provide me with the most damage. me and me only. other players can achieve different results using different gear but this is what does it for me. which means that any other set i will try to use will be worse than my current setup. at the moment. now, after the next patch i could just slot different CP nodes. or try different gear. the issue i have with all this is - just because i am a Khajiit stamina Templar i will be forced to use different sets. other races/classes can use the same gear that i am using ATM and not be forced to use different sets. simply because i have 12% critical damage built in my racial passive and i'm a stamina Templar. that will actually prevent me from using the gear i want to use, because if i'll be in a group with certain other classes using certain other gear sets it will put me over the cap. but not other players using the very same gear. looking at the sets that are already available, or the ones coming with the next patch, i don't really see stronger or similar alternative to Sul-Xan+the Kilt. maybe Relequen, but as i've mentioned before i will never do the Sunspire as i hate that Trial with all my heart. so unless i'm very much mistaken any other gear sets i'll try to use instead of Sul-Xan+the Kilt will be weaker, meaning i will simply do less damage. again, any other race or class can freely use this combination without any fear of going over the cap except me (and other Khajiit stamina Templars/NBs). that is what i have an issue with..

and i am not chasing the meta. never have been. it's simply a matter of having the best (or very close to the best) gear readily available and not being able to use it..

Trixterion

mzprx wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

...Have you read my calculations? Because all you have to sacrifice is Backstabber if horn will be used only for the resource buff, or you suppose that in Maelstrom, solo play, random Dungeons or PVP anyone will buff you with horn? As a Khajiit Templar YOU will be able to reach crit cap and play 80% of content with it, while 60% of players will have to ask for Elemental Catalyst, or try to backstabbing. The Elemental Catalyst will be forced to run in mag Compositions(just like alcosh in stam) and all YOU have to do differently from current build is to replace your Backstabber for something else and you are golden - is that too much for you?

yes, i did read your calculations. have you read mine? i shall repeat -

Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
10% from Minor Force
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive

all this is 118% without slotting Backstabber or Fighting Finesse. which means that if i want to use the same gear after the cap introduction and, Akatosh forbid, i get a DK tank, Catalyst Necromancer or Brittle Warden in my group i will be over the cap. in which case i will be forced to use different, weaker gear, go home/change character or they will have to do the same (DK tanks, Catalyst Necromancers, Brittle Wardens). so i don't have to sacrifice just Backstabber. i have to sacrifice much more than that..

jaws343 wrote: »

...I really don't understand your logic here.

You say that if you don't run these sets you will be weaker.

Well, that is true ON LIVE. Not in the next patch.

On live you have to wear those to get the most damage from your build.

Next patch, you don't have to wear those to get the most damage from your build. You can replace those with other sets that will add more damage....

this is only partially true. let me try to be clearer, sometimes i don't fully explain my train of thoughts, my apologies..

the sets that i'm wearing provide me with the most damage. me and me only. other players can achieve different results using different gear but this is what does it for me. which means that any other set i will try to use will be worse than my current setup. at the moment. now, after the next patch i could just slot different CP nodes. or try different gear. the issue i have with all this is - just because i am a Khajiit stamina Templar i will be forced to use different sets. other races/classes can use the same gear that i am using ATM and not be forced to use different sets. simply because i have 12% critical damage built in my racial passive and i'm a stamina Templar. that will actually prevent me from using the gear i want to use, because if i'll be in a group with certain other classes using certain other gear sets it will put me over the cap. but not other players using the very same gear. looking at the sets that are already available, or the ones coming with the next patch, i don't really see stronger or similar alternative to Sul-Xan+the Kilt. maybe Relequen, but as i've mentioned before i will never do the Sunspire as i hate that Trial with all my heart. so unless i'm very much mistaken any other gear sets i'll try to use instead of Sul-Xan+the Kilt will be weaker, meaning i will simply do less damage. again, any other race or class can freely use this combination without any fear of going over the cap except me (and other Khajiit stamina Templars/NBs). that is what i have an issue with..

and i am not chasing the meta. never have been. it's simply a matter of having the best (or very close to the best) gear readily available and not being able to use it..

Let me put it this way, selfbuffed:
1)Your Kitty-Templar=118% (without CP)
2.1)Any Other Kitty stamina user=108% (without CP)
2.2)Any Other non-Kitty stamina user=96% (without CP)
3)Kitty-Magplar/MagNB/Magden=121% (with CP and Kilt and medium Slimecraw)
4.1)Any Other Kitty magica user=111% (with CP and Kilt and medium Slimecraw)
4.2)Any Other non-Kitty magica user=99%(with CP and Kilt and medium Slimecraw)
Now let's imagine that in Ideal circumstances groups are formed in such different setups:
•1&2.1&2.2 create stamina group
•3&4.1&4.2 create magica group
•1&2.1&2.2&3 create mixed group
Stamina group CAN AND WILL cover everything they need with just CP and Brittle, no Elemental Catalyst/Warhorns are needed to cover the crit cap.
Magica group WILL BE FORCED TO USE ELEMENTAL CATALYST with some tweaks in CP and Brittle and Warhorns aren't needed to cover the crit cap.
Mixed group CAN AND WILL cover everything they need with just CP(only in cases of 2.2&3 we need Brittle), Brittle and Warhorns aren't needed to cover the crit cap.
And what do we have here in conclusion:
•In top-end scenarios noone needs Warhorn for crit damage boost, more uptime on the Colossus!
•Only pure Magica group needs Elemental Catalyst
•Brittle exists only for the lowest member of the group in terms of crit damage

I dare you to name any reason why if cap will be 150% instead of 125% we should segregate into only 2 groups:
•Stam Catplars, Catblades & Cat-warden. With introduction of 150% crit cap they will have more room to breathe.
•Literally everyone else who won't change their build at all because they are below crit cap at any circumstances. With introduction of 150% cap they will be FORCED to reach IT therefore they will run exactly the same build and will be choked to death if they aren't at the cap.
However with crit cap at 125% literally everyone besides Stam Catplars, Catblades & Cat-warden will have a room to breathe because as soon as they reach crit and pen caps and their dps is decent they are FINE, while Stam Catplars, Catblades & Cat-warden should be able to reach crit cap faster therefore they can do 2 possible things:
●the first thing they can do is to become top 1% of scorepushing groups if united;
●the second thing they can do is to decent to us, mere mortals, lower their crit damage and invest in something else therefore they will output 10% more dps then anyone(or alternatively they still CAN use their top 1% build and do exactly the same amount of damage as everyone else in their group).
What path do you neglect?

SaintSubwayy

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...I don't think I understand this part. They put in a bunch of gear that increases crit damage to provide options, and different ways to approach crit damage. Obviously not for everyone to stack all of the sets as much as possible. Which is why they are doing the cap. They are still keeping the options in place though, because that is the point of having sets with different sources of crit damage, options. Not requirements.

a couple of posts above i mentioned this -

Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
10% from Minor Force
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive

all this puts me at 118%, 7% below the cap without slotting Backstabber and Fighting Finesse. so if my group wants to use a DK tank, Catalyst Necromancer and/or Brittle Warden i will have to choose other gear that is not as strong as this one or i will go over the cap and that would be a waste. it's the same as penetration. let's say you have a couple of stamina DDs in your Trial group. you have to choose gear sets that provide more penetration because stamina DDs do not have penetration built in the armour passive. which means your magicka DDs are going to be over the cap. and you don't want that. so you have to choose - either kick all stamina DDs (which is, sadly, always the case nowadays, no one wants us in their Trial group) or your magicka DDs have to use weaker gear, literally deliberately gimp themselves so they don't get over the penetration cap. so here's me, sitting just below the critical damage cap. my group wants to use a DK tank plus Catalyst Necromancer for other players to reach the critical damage cap, as ther are magicka DDs (for example). i can then go home or start gimping meself in order to not go over the cap. so i have the best gear that i can have (or one of the best) but i can not use it and have to look for weaker gear sets if i want to participate in the group festivities, which also means i will do a lot less damage and they will ask me politely to buzz off. or i can use it, but it will be wasted on me 'cause i will be over the cap..

so it's not about certain gear sets being "meta". it's about me having the best gear available in my inventory and being forced to not use it..

Well here are some suggestions to fix your issue with going over the critcap in your group.

Dropp Sul-Xan in favour or other Sets like AY, Relequen, Deadly Strikes etc. -12%
Dropp Minor Force and just slot any other Fightersguild ability you wont use, just for the pure passive stats (+3% WD). -10%
Dropp Kilt for a full Monsterset or 2x1pcs bonis -10%
Change Race to litteraly anything else then Khajiit -12%

You can dropp up to 42% of your Critdmg modifiers (but you'd have to change your setup ofc)

As I said mixed groups atm arent the meta, if you dont want to stick to the meta, which ofc is fine, you may end up having to sacrifice some stats or sets to get the best performance possible.

You could even try to build your own raidgroup with full staminas, there wont be any issue with that. Z'en and MK can now be easily worn by stams (Z'en on Stam DK, since it also provides Magreg for spamming whip)

I kinda see the "problem" you have, but change is part of any MMO, and so is Meta sets and gearchanges with Metashifts
This time it hit your build and you have potential to adjust your build, noone is forcing you to adjust to the changes rather than you yourself.
Keep in mind that relequen and many monstersets can now again crit, which is a nice change and makes them more viable again.

On a Personal note:
I'd love to see a Flat Pen CP slottable so Staminas chars could slot this CP, when the group cannot provide enough Penetration, and wearing a Penset isnt an option, or even a massive DMG loss.

Xebov

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...You wouldn't use the best gear that you have because it is no longer the best gear for the new meta. Just like any meta shift, the 125% cap is going to require reworking gear and skills to find the new balance. This was the intent of them putting in the cap, to limit players stacking crit damage and provide avenues for other damage boosting sets/abilities to make it into builds.

that is not necessarily true. it is still the best gear for everyone who is not a Khajiit. you see, i shouldn't be punished because i want to play as a certain race when every other race is off the hook, so to speak. they (ZOS) are trying to promote the "play as you want" gameplay and i do want to play as i want. but introducing the cap at 125%, taking away critical chance and giving us critical damage as a medium armour passive just one patch ago, putting all the gear into the game that increases critical damage, someone at ZOS didn't think this through..

No racial passive should provide a benefit that is subject to an overall cap,

This doesnt seem to be bother anyone when we have movement speed or armor bonuses, which both have hard caps, so why should it be a problem here?

mzprx

Trixterion wrote: »

...I dare you to name any reason why if cap will be 150% instead of 125% we should segregate into only 2 groups:
•Stam Catplars, Catblades & Cat-warden. With introduction of 150% crit cap they will have more room to breathe.
•Literally everyone else who won't change their build at all because they are below crit cap at any circumstances. With introduction of 150% cap they will be FORCED to reach IT therefore they will run exactly the same build and will be choked to death if they aren't at the cap.
However with crit cap at 125% literally everyone besides Stam Catplars, Catblades & Cat-warden will have a room to breathe because as soon as they reach crit and pen caps and their dps is decent they are FINE, while Stam Catplars, Catblades & Cat-warden should be able to reach crit cap faster therefore they can do 2 possible things:
●the first thing they can do is to become top 1% of scorepushing groups if united;
●the second thing they can do is to decent to us, mere mortals, lower their crit damage and invest in something else therefore they will output 10% more dps then anyone(or alternatively they still CAN use their top 1% build and do exactly the same amount of damage as everyone else in their group).
What path do you neglect?

i don't mean to sound condescending here, so please do accept my apologies if i sound like that. but no one is FORCING anyone to reach the critical damage cap. but if you don't get to it you'll do less damage. it's the same as with penetration. no one is FORCING anyone to reach the pen cap, but if you don't you'll do less damage. and that is fine. this allows for diversity in builds, classes and races. that is exactly what this game needs. players working together to improve their performance. but with the 125% critical damage cap certain players (and there's a lot of them) and certain classes will be excluded from working together under ideal conditions. if you go over the penetration cap it is a wasted stat. but you can't go over it just by being a certain race or class. you have to specifically build your character to reach and then get over the pen cap. if you go over the critical damage cap it's the same situation. a waste of stat. but being a certain race or class you actually have to watch out to not go over it if there are other certain classes or gear sets present in your group. meaning the gear i have ATM is the best i can have (IMO). after the next patch it can still be the best. but only for some races and/or classes. a Dumner stamina Templar can still use the gear. a Redguard can still use the gear. an Imperial, Nord, Orc can still use the gear and be under the cap. a Khajiit can not. if there are certain other classes or gear sets present in the group a Khajiit will be forced to use inferior gear just to be under or at the critical damage cap. remember, i am sitting at 118% with just the gear. no other critical damage buffs are present. which prevents me to play with DK tanks, Catalyst Necromancers and Brittle Wardens..

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

...Dropp Sul-Xan in favour or other Sets like AY, Relequen, Deadly Strikes etc. -12%
Dropp Minor Force and just slot any other Fightersguild ability you wont use, just for the pure passive stats (+3% WD). -10%
Dropp Kilt for a full Monsterset or 2x1pcs bonis -10%
Change Race to litteraly anything else then Khajiit -12%

You can dropp up to 42% of your Critdmg modifiers (but you'd have to change your setup ofc)

As I said mixed groups atm arent the meta, if you dont want to stick to the meta, which ofc is fine, you may end up having to sacrifice some stats or sets to get the best performance possible.

You could even try to build your own raidgroup with full staminas, there wont be any issue with that. Z'en and MK can now be easily worn by stams (Z'en on Stam DK, since it also provides Magreg for spamming whip)

I kinda see the "problem" you have, but change is part of any MMO, and so is Meta sets and gearchanges with Metashifts
This time it hit your build and you have potential to adjust your build, noone is forcing you to adjust to the changes rather than you yourself.
Keep in mind that relequen and many monstersets can now again crit, which is a nice change and makes them more viable again.

On a Personal note:
I'd love to see a Flat Pen CP slottable so Staminas chars could slot this CP, when the group cannot provide enough Penetration, and wearing a Penset isnt an option, or even a massive DMG loss.

- Sul-Xan is better than AY, Deadly Strikes, Kinra's or other sets. Minor Slayer is an extremely powerful attribute. plus Sul-Xan gives me a ton of critical chance, an attribute we desperately need now as stamina DDs since they took that away from us in the last patch (medium armour change) and gave us critical damage instead. something we now have to desperately try to avoid (125% cap)
- the Kilt and Slimecraw is better combination than any monster set. that is why it's used on all builds
- i have to spend money to change my race. and i don't want to (change my race). i do want to be a Khajiit

all this means i am going to use weaker gear sets only because i am a Khajiit stamina Templar. the best gear that i already have is going to put me very close to the cap, so close that i am unable to play with several other classes if i don't want to go over that cap..

Relequen can not critically strike (to quote the developers - Item sets that scale in order of magnitude, or based on additional modifiers such as Relequen or Zaan, will not critically strike)..

and you're 100% right about the penetration CP node. i'd love to see that too..

so raising the cap to 150% would provide a breathing space to everyone regardless fo their race or gear. and still lower the amount of critical damage boost by 55%, which is still a lot. so there will be no more critical damage stacking but everyone could still enjoy the game..

Trixterion

mzprx wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

...I dare you to name any reason why if cap will be 150% instead of 125% we should segregate into only 2 groups:
•Stam Catplars, Catblades & Cat-warden. With introduction of 150% crit cap they will have more room to breathe.
•Literally everyone else who won't change their build at all because they are below crit cap at any circumstances. With introduction of 150% cap they will be FORCED to reach IT therefore they will run exactly the same build and will be choked to death if they aren't at the cap.
However with crit cap at 125% literally everyone besides Stam Catplars, Catblades & Cat-warden will have a room to breathe because as soon as they reach crit and pen caps and their dps is decent they are FINE, while Stam Catplars, Catblades & Cat-warden should be able to reach crit cap faster therefore they can do 2 possible things:
●the first thing they can do is to become top 1% of scorepushing groups if united;
●the second thing they can do is to decent to us, mere mortals, lower their crit damage and invest in something else therefore they will output 10% more dps then anyone(or alternatively they still CAN use their top 1% build and do exactly the same amount of damage as everyone else in their group).
What path do you neglect?

i don't mean to sound condescending here, so please do accept my apologies if i sound like that. but no one is FORCING anyone to reach the critical damage cap. but if you don't get to it you'll do less damage. it's the same as with penetration. no one is FORCING anyone to reach the pen cap, but if you don't you'll do less damage. and that is fine. this allows for diversity in builds, classes and races. that is exactly what this game needs. players working together to improve their performance. but with the 125% critical damage cap certain players (and there's a lot of them) and certain classes will be excluded from working together under ideal conditions. if you go over the penetration cap it is a wasted stat. but you can't go over it just by being a certain race or class. you have to specifically build your character to reach and then get over the pen cap. if you go over the critical damage cap it's the same situation. a waste of stat. but being a certain race or class you actually have to watch out to not go over it if there are other certain classes or gear sets present in your group. meaning the gear i have ATM is the best i can have (IMO). after the next patch it can still be the best. but only for some races and/or classes. a Dumner stamina Templar can still use the gear. a Redguard can still use the gear. an Imperial, Nord, Orc can still use the gear and be under the cap. a Khajiit can not. if there are certain other classes or gear sets present in the group a Khajiit will be forced to use inferior gear just to be under or at the critical damage cap. remember, i am sitting at 118% with just the gear. no other critical damage buffs are present. which prevents me to play with DK tanks, Catalyst Necromancers and Brittle Wardens..

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

...Dropp Sul-Xan in favour or other Sets like AY, Relequen, Deadly Strikes etc. -12%
Dropp Minor Force and just slot any other Fightersguild ability you wont use, just for the pure passive stats (+3% WD). -10%
Dropp Kilt for a full Monsterset or 2x1pcs bonis -10%
Change Race to litteraly anything else then Khajiit -12%

You can dropp up to 42% of your Critdmg modifiers (but you'd have to change your setup ofc)

As I said mixed groups atm arent the meta, if you dont want to stick to the meta, which ofc is fine, you may end up having to sacrifice some stats or sets to get the best performance possible.

You could even try to build your own raidgroup with full staminas, there wont be any issue with that. Z'en and MK can now be easily worn by stams (Z'en on Stam DK, since it also provides Magreg for spamming whip)

I kinda see the "problem" you have, but change is part of any MMO, and so is Meta sets and gearchanges with Metashifts
This time it hit your build and you have potential to adjust your build, noone is forcing you to adjust to the changes rather than you yourself.
Keep in mind that relequen and many monstersets can now again crit, which is a nice change and makes them more viable again.

On a Personal note:
I'd love to see a Flat Pen CP slottable so Staminas chars could slot this CP, when the group cannot provide enough Penetration, and wearing a Penset isnt an option, or even a massive DMG loss.

- Sul-Xan is better than AY, Deadly Strikes, Kinra's or other sets. Minor Slayer is an extremely powerful attribute. plus Sul-Xan gives me a ton of critical chance, an attribute we desperately need now as stamina DDs since they took that away from us in the last patch (medium armour change) and gave us critical damage instead. something we now have to desperately try to avoid (125% cap)
- the Kilt and Slimecraw is better combination than any monster set. that is why it's used on all builds
- i have to spend money to change my race. and i don't want to (change my race). i do want to be a Khajiit

all this means i am going to use weaker gear sets only because i am a Khajiit stamina Templar. the best gear that i already have is going to put me very close to the cap, so close that i am unable to play with several other classes if i don't want to go over that cap..

Relequen can not critically strike (to quote the developers - Item sets that scale in order of magnitude, or based on additional modifiers such as Relequen or Zaan, will not critically strike)..

and you're 100% right about the penetration CP node. i'd love to see that too..

so raising the cap to 150% would provide a breathing space to everyone regardless fo their race or gear. and still lower the amount of critical damage boost by 55%, which is still a lot. so there will be no more critical damage stacking but everyone could still enjoy the game..

Do you understand that only with Khajiit stamina Templar, NB, Warden it will be possible to reach the 150% cap because groups won't use buffs that could be waisted and exactly the same situation will appear: you build those combinations in order to reach the 150% cap, however Raid Leader would imply on using Warhorn, Brittle, Elemental Catalyst so that others can reach cap, but you will have to build yourself for 150%-20%-15%-10%=105% crit in order to utilize the same buffs.
While with 125% cap Raid Leader will ask only for one of those or none of them thought we are running in Circles, whether they are small or medium because there is no such situation where crit cap can be introduced and everyone will be able to reach it through various means equally with group buffs. If you are really bothered, please calculate exact percentage where Raid leader would ask the same buffs he ask now and simultaneously you with your highest crit can tune it down without being oppressed and everyone can even in light armor without being Khajiit, Templar and whatever else with group buffs will have the same crit damage as you're by any means if they want to build for it.
After you can give us exact %, we can proof it being more fair if it is.
As for now: for 125% Raid Leader would stop using some group buffs; while with 150% group buffs will stay as they are right now

SaintSubwayy

mzprx wrote: »

- Sul-Xan is better than AY, Deadly Strikes, Kinra's or other sets. Minor Slayer is an extremely powerful attribute. plus Sul-Xan gives me a ton of critical chance, an attribute we desperately need now as stamina DDs since they took that away from us in the last patch (medium armour change) and gave us critical damage instead. something we now have to desperately try to avoid (125% cap)
- the Kilt and Slimecraw is better combination than any monster set. that is why it's used on all builds
- i have to spend money to change my race. and i don't want to (change my race). i do want to be a Khajiit

all this means i am going to use weaker gear sets only because i am a Khajiit stamina Templar. the best gear that i already have is going to put me very close to the cap, so close that i am unable to play with several other classes if i don't want to go over that cap..

Relequen can not critically strike (to quote the developers - Item sets that scale in order of magnitude, or based on additional modifiers such as Relequen or Zaan, will not critically strike)..

and you're 100% right about the penetration CP node. i'd love to see that too..

so raising the cap to 150% would provide a breathing space to everyone regardless fo their race or gear. and still lower the amount of critical damage boost by 55%, which is still a lot. so there will be no more critical damage stacking but everyone could still enjoy the game..

Sul Xan might be better on live now, however after the patch it most likely wont be BiS anymore, since as you said it will end up to be too much Crit Dmg modifiers, ergo another Set will be BiS. (maybe Sul Xan remains BiS for Solo play)

Also it should be kept in Mind, that with the Cap on Crit DMG, Crit Rating is also decreasing in value, since your crits hit weaker anyways, so WD/SD become more viable. -> Maybe you'll play Siroria, on stamina after U32

raising the Cap to 150% wouldnt change anything for Magicka groups other than sets like Tzogvins and AY becoming BiS on frontbar, as magicka build (except maybe NB, Temp and Warden as Khajiits) barely reach 150% even with Backstabber and Fithing Finesse and EC.

I myself play MagDk and reach on the Dummy 127% with Kilt, BS, FF, Minor Force on my side, and gaining Horn and Brittle for the Dummy. So adding EC on that would end up with 142% which would still be under your suggested Cap of 150%

So if I would want to hit a Cap of 150% I'd be forced to play Khajiit and then have 4% overcap (which isnt a big deal since EC isnt used in Trash fights and can have downtime if EC player is dead or other mechanics are played)

Ergo a Cap of 150%(if you play progress and Scorepush) would force DK, Sorc and Necro to become Khajiit and slot Backstabber and Fighting Finesse, while a Mag Blade could either have 258 more SD form Race like Dunmer, or unslot FF in favour of even more SD throuh CP's. While keeping the Crit Cap, which would quite massivly buff their DMG compared to non Crit Classes (DK, Sorc, Necro).

IMO 125% is too low, but going to 150% is too high aswell. Maybe 135% or 140% would be an overall best, but I can adapt and live with 125% even if it means ditching Backstabber (which isnt always a usable CP anyways)

divnyi

My issue with cap is that every group will now dictate how to play the game, or else people would lose DPS.

People say that this change won't affect low-level players, and will only affect high-tier trial groups.

I say it will hit mid-tier trial groups the most, that only start progressions and don't enforce gear choices.

Because how much crit damage you get from group only depends on the group layout itself. So you either *force* players to go for, say, horn+sax+catalyst+brittle and force the rest to fill only 30% crit damage, or you go with *anything goes* and players will be consistently below cap and above cap, resulting in group DPS.

Trixterion

divnyi wrote: »

My issue with cap is that every group will now dictate how to play the game, or else people would lose DPS.

People say that this change won't affect low-level players, and will only affect high-tier trial groups.

I say it will hit mid-tier trial groups the most, that only start progressions and don't enforce gear choices.

Because how much crit damage you get from group only depends on the group layout itself. So you either *force* players to go for, say, horn+sax+catalyst+brittle and force the rest to fill only 30% crit damage, or you go with *anything goes* and players will be consistently below cap and above cap, resulting in group DPS.

What's the difference from Life Server?
now *anything goes* and only some setups go above 150%, so if they drop their CP they will be equally above 125%. Poor Danmer MagDK cannot get above 130% by any means without medium armor
As I've already asked "find the exact % that will please the most of our playerbase"
Crit cap for sure overcomplicates the whole source of damage as it could possibly just by its existence and if ZOS decided to cap it so that it will be nerfed, all we can ask for is the exact number we can live with.

BejaProphet

ZOS: Play how you want.

Player: I want the sum of all my particular choices which I refuse to budge on to be best in slot not matter the composition of the rest of my group.

ZOS: wait…that’s not what we mean…

Player: So much for “play how I want”!


This is how some of the argumentation in this thread is going. I could make the same dilemma about my twice fang serpent set, plus maul, plus precise trait. Pair that with major and minor breach plus crimson oath and infused crusher.

I could lay out all the math showing how it puts me over the cap if the tank also fully debuffs mobs armor.

I then show how I would be over penetrating and therefore waisting power. Groups will not want me, the tank stops debuffing or I am being forced to change my sets…

So much for playing how I want!

We could do the exact same argument for resistance caps. Or any cap.


TLDR: reaching a cap when you stack every source of something in the game is not ZOS bullying anybody.

divnyi

Trixterion wrote: »

Poor Danmer MagDK cannot get above 130% by any means without medium armor

In above scenario, you need 30% to reach the cap.

Minor Force +10%, CP stars +25% - already 5% above cap, and can also go for Shadow mundus for +17%.

So much for "cannot get by any means".

Dark_Lord_Kuro

mzprx wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

...Then use it for the dot and not for the buff

sure thing. but, again, the critical damage increase is built in that ability. so i still get it. put a DK tank in my group and i am over the cap. so either the DK tank goes or i go..

That change absolutly nothing
You still get the dot wich is the important part
If it was a non damage ability you woud be right as there would be no use to have the trap but it is a damaging ability so there is still some use to trap, overcap or not
Also warhorn most of the time wont have 100% uptime so trap will give that uptime to you, and warhorn will still give you max resources wich still increase your damage

mzprx

BejaProphet wrote: »

ZOS: Play how you want.

Player: I want the sum of all my particular choices which I refuse to budge on to be best in slot not matter the composition of the rest of my group.

ZOS: wait…that’s not what we mean…

Player: So much for “play how I want”!

This is how some of the argumentation in this thread is going. I could make the same dilemma about my twice fang serpent set, plus maul, plus precise trait. Pair that with major and minor breach plus crimson oath and infused crusher.

I could lay out all the math showing how it puts me over the cap if the tank also fully debuffs mobs armor.

I then show how I would be over penetrating and therefore waisting power. Groups will not want me, the tank stops debuffing or I am being forced to change my sets…

So much for playing how I want!

We could do the exact same argument for resistance caps. Or any cap.


TLDR: reaching a cap when you stack every source of something in the game is not ZOS bullying anybody.

you are quite wrong here. let me explain why..

your scenario is deliberately building up towards and over the penetration cap. your TLDR summed it up exactly - when you stack every source of something in the game. what i am talking about is simply using the gear that is available in the game alongside certain classes puts me over the critical damage cap without me actually wanting to get there. to get over the penetration cap you must build up, to not get over the critical damage cap i must dumb down. building up and optimizing the group is fine, making yourself weaker on purpose just because of your race choice isn't..

mzprx

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

...Sul Xan might be better on live now, however after the patch it most likely wont be BiS anymore, since as you said it will end up to be too much Crit Dmg modifiers, ergo another Set will be BiS. (maybe Sul Xan remains BiS for Solo play)

Also it should be kept in Mind, that with the Cap on Crit DMG, Crit Rating is also decreasing in value, since your crits hit weaker anyways, so WD/SD become more viable. -> Maybe you'll play Siroria, on stamina after U32

raising the Cap to 150% wouldnt change anything for Magicka groups other than sets like Tzogvins and AY becoming BiS on frontbar, as magicka build (except maybe NB, Temp and Warden as Khajiits) barely reach 150% even with Backstabber and Fithing Finesse and EC....

Sul-Xan can still be one of the very best sets even after the patch. for Dunmers, Redguards, Orcs, Imperials... do you see where i am going with this? all those races can simply unslot Backstabber and Fighting Finesse and can have a DK tank in their group. or Catalyst Necromancer. or Brittle Warden. just because i am a Khajiit i can not. the gear is the same, the group composition is the same, the class is the same, the CPs are the same. but because of my race choice i am at a disadvantage and can not use the gear every other race can. i don't know how better to explain this. the cap at 125% puts certain races and classes combinations into a no-go zone..

Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
15% from Backstabber
10% from Fighting Finesse
20% from Major Force
10% from Minor Force
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
17% from Shadow with all divines
5% per Elemental Weakness from Elemental Catalyst (maximum 15%)
10% from Minor Brittle
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
10% from Nightblade Hemorrhaging passive/10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive/10% from Warden's Glacial Presence passive (if the enemy has recently been Chilled)

that is a total of 205%. if you take away -

12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
17% from Shadow with all divines
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)

which are things that magicka players that aren't Khajiits don't use you get to 150%. which is exactly at the cap that i (and several other players) have proposed. yes, you will have to build up to it and optimize your group, but that is the same as with penetration. this gives certain players (like meself) room to breathe while still allowing the rest ot the playerbase to optimize their groups. so, do you see now how 150% is more beneficial for everyone?

jaws343

mzprx wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

...Sul Xan might be better on live now, however after the patch it most likely wont be BiS anymore, since as you said it will end up to be too much Crit Dmg modifiers, ergo another Set will be BiS. (maybe Sul Xan remains BiS for Solo play)

Also it should be kept in Mind, that with the Cap on Crit DMG, Crit Rating is also decreasing in value, since your crits hit weaker anyways, so WD/SD become more viable. -> Maybe you'll play Siroria, on stamina after U32

raising the Cap to 150% wouldnt change anything for Magicka groups other than sets like Tzogvins and AY becoming BiS on frontbar, as magicka build (except maybe NB, Temp and Warden as Khajiits) barely reach 150% even with Backstabber and Fithing Finesse and EC....

Sul-Xan can still be one of the very best sets even after the patch. for Dunmers, Redguards, Orcs, Imperials... do you see where i am going with this? all those races can simply unslot Backstabber and Fighting Finesse and can have a DK tank in their group. or Catalyst Necromancer. or Brittle Warden. just because i am a Khajiit i can not. the gear is the same, the group composition is the same, the class is the same, the CPs are the same. but because of my race choice i am at a disadvantage and can not use the gear every other race can. i don't know how better to explain this. the cap at 125% puts certain races and classes combinations into a no-go zone..

Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
15% from Backstabber
10% from Fighting Finesse
20% from Major Force
10% from Minor Force
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
17% from Shadow with all divines
5% per Elemental Weakness from Elemental Catalyst (maximum 15%)
10% from Minor Brittle
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
10% from Nightblade Hemorrhaging passive/10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive/10% from Warden's Glacial Presence passive (if the enemy has recently been Chilled)

that is a total of 205%. if you take away -

12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
17% from Shadow with all divines
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)

which are things that magicka players that aren't Khajiits don't use you get to 150%. which is exactly at the cap that i (and several other players) have proposed. yes, you will have to build up to it and optimize your group, but that is the same as with penetration. this gives certain players (like meself) room to breathe while still allowing the rest ot the playerbase to optimize their groups. so, do you see now how 150% is more beneficial for everyone?

I think you are too hung up on running specific sets to understand that you don't actually need to run them now to maximize damage. You want to run them. But you don't need to and will be better off for not running them.

A cap at 150 doesn't really meet intention of lowering damage from crit. Which is the whole point of this. They literally don't want you stacking 20+ crit damage modifiers. So of course you need to make sacrifices and and change things. Being a khajiit just means you have more room to be flexible and add other elements into the build. You can do it or not, but it isn't a problem with the cap or with Khajiit.

BejaProphet

mzprx wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

ZOS: Play how you want.

Player: I want the sum of all my particular choices which I refuse to budge on to be best in slot not matter the composition of the rest of my group.

ZOS: wait…that’s not what we mean…

Player: So much for “play how I want”!

This is how some of the argumentation in this thread is going. I could make the same dilemma about my twice fang serpent set, plus maul, plus precise trait. Pair that with major and minor breach plus crimson oath and infused crusher.

I could lay out all the math showing how it puts me over the cap if the tank also fully debuffs mobs armor.

I then show how I would be over penetrating and therefore waisting power. Groups will not want me, the tank stops debuffing or I am being forced to change my sets…

So much for playing how I want!

We could do the exact same argument for resistance caps. Or any cap.


TLDR: reaching a cap when you stack every source of something in the game is not ZOS bullying anybody.

you are quite wrong here. let me explain why..

your scenario is deliberately building up towards and over the penetration cap. your TLDR summed it up exactly - when you stack every source of something in the game. what i am talking about is simply using the gear that is available in the game alongside certain classes puts me over the critical damage cap without me actually wanting to get there. to get over the penetration cap you must build up, to not get over the critical damage cap i must dumb down. building up and optimizing the group is fine, making yourself weaker on purpose just because of your race choice isn't..

You are assigning my motives on why I wear twice fang?

The situation is exactly applicable. I just don’t want to weaken myself. If I loose 5,400 penetration then I am weaker.

But then I come to an organized group and with all their buffs, my choice to not gimp myself is waisted. Therefore my choices are being robbed from me. Ones that I had to do trials for no less!

It is exactly your logic. I stand by my post.

mzprx

jaws343 wrote: »

...I think you are too hung up on running specific sets to understand that you don't actually need to run them now to maximize damage. You want to run them. But you don't need to and will be better off for not running them.

A cap at 150 doesn't really meet intention of lowering damage from crit. Which is the whole point of this. They literally don't want you stacking 20+ crit damage modifiers. So of course you need to make sacrifices and and change things. Being a khajiit just means you have more room to be flexible and add other elements into the build. You can do it or not, but it isn't a problem with the cap or with Khajiit.

i do not know how to better explain meself. sets that i use ATM are providing me with the best performance. after the next patch everyone else but me (and other Khajiits) are going to be able to happily use those sets without ever worrying about going over the cap. me (and other Khajiits) will have to look elsewhere. do you not see the problem here? a race choice defining the gear you are able to use? i can go and farm other gear. if it isn't going to be the BIS Trial gear it will be weaker than what i currently use. so to keep my current performance level i will have to change my race or farm weaker gear, while other races can keep using the same gear that i am using currently without any issues..

and 150% is 55% lower than what you can reach ATM with an optimized group. which is a huge decrease in power. so it does solve the issue of "too much critical damage" while also providing everyone with a room to breathe..

jaws343

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...I think you are too hung up on running specific sets to understand that you don't actually need to run them now to maximize damage. You want to run them. But you don't need to and will be better off for not running them.

A cap at 150 doesn't really meet intention of lowering damage from crit. Which is the whole point of this. They literally don't want you stacking 20+ crit damage modifiers. So of course you need to make sacrifices and and change things. Being a khajiit just means you have more room to be flexible and add other elements into the build. You can do it or not, but it isn't a problem with the cap or with Khajiit.

i do not know how to better explain meself. sets that i use ATM are providing me with the best performance. after the next patch everyone else but me (and other Khajiits) are going to be able to happily use those sets without ever worrying about going over the cap. me (and other Khajiits) will have to look elsewhere. do you not see the problem here? a race choice defining the gear you are able to use? i can go and farm other gear. if it isn't going to be the BIS Trial gear it will be weaker than what i currently use. so to keep my current performance level i will have to change my race or farm weaker gear, while other races can keep using the same gear that i am using currently without any issues..

and 150% is 55% lower than what you can reach ATM with an optimized group. which is a huge decrease in power. so it does solve the issue of "too much critical damage" while also providing everyone with a room to breathe..

No, I get it. I just don't think anything you are saying is a problem. Yes, you have to change your build. Yes, that happens all the time. No you can't just keep running the same thing you are running in live and expect it to have the same level of performance in the next patch. And also, other players are going to have to make adjustments as well to account for staying at or under the cap. It isn't just a khajit thing. Everyone is going to have to adjust. Khajiits just have more flexibility to do so. More options to run other sets or skills. So no, I don't think your issues here are valid.

And again, I think this is a clear message that crit damage was too high. I highly doubt they walk this back just so players have to do less work avoiding stacking it. (I say work, but it is super easy to not run sets or skills that would put you over cap).

jaws343

To expand on the cap comment.

They do not want players to have room to breath. They want players to stop stacking crit damage. Suggesting that they allow more crit damage runs counter to that intention.

jaws343

If you really want to keep running mostly what you are running now Take of Kilt and wear malacath and stack to 175%. Then you will be at the 125% cap after the Malacath penalty and you get 16% more damage. Win, win.