So how is the crit damage cap most likely to be reached (or not) in PvE?

Sordidfairytale

BattleAxe wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

...Your right only the dk gets the cap at 3% but it also provides a sizable shield to the group. Yes again 1 person can use the synergy but still that synergy could be proccing a dps in alkosh or give a person that small boost in resources to fire off a skill. Also likely warhorn will still be utilized because not everyone will necessarily be at the crit dmg cap so yes warhorn may be wasted on you but it also is giving you some added resources and would maybe allow you to change out a piece of gear for something else possibly.

do you mean the Igneous Shield skill? the one that gives members of your group around 3k shield? don't want to be rude, but that will not save anyone from dying to mechanics. it's nice to have, but you absolutely can't rely on it. it generally can't be activated on demand (with regards to other group members), the size is small and no group will bring a DK tank to Trials because of Igneous Shield..

and yes, synergies are great, but again - do you feel starved for synergies these days? there are more synergies flying around that you can actually use. so no DD wearing Alkosh will miss that one synergy which a DK tank can provide every couple of minutes. remember, 250 Ultimate for one single synergy is a bad trade if you can have a Necromancer tank giving you Major Vulnerability for 225 Ultimate..

Magma shell the ultimate reduces all incoming dmg to 3% and gives all allies a damage shield

The Damage shield is equal to the allies health as well.

pandazooka

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

...Your right only the dk gets the cap at 3% but it also provides a sizable shield to the group. Yes again 1 person can use the synergy but still that synergy could be proccing a dps in alkosh or give a person that small boost in resources to fire off a skill. Also likely warhorn will still be utilized because not everyone will necessarily be at the crit dmg cap so yes warhorn may be wasted on you but it also is giving you some added resources and would maybe allow you to change out a piece of gear for something else possibly.

do you mean the Igneous Shield skill? the one that gives members of your group around 3k shield? don't want to be rude, but that will not save anyone from dying to mechanics. it's nice to have, but you absolutely can't rely on it. it generally can't be activated on demand (with regards to other group members), the size is small and no group will bring a DK tank to Trials because of Igneous Shield..

and yes, synergies are great, but again - do you feel starved for synergies these days? there are more synergies flying around that you can actually use. so no DD wearing Alkosh will miss that one synergy which a DK tank can provide every couple of minutes. remember, 250 Ultimate for one single synergy is a bad trade if you can have a Necromancer tank giving you Major Vulnerability for 225 Ultimate..

Magma shell the ultimate reduces all incoming dmg to 3% and gives all allies a damage shield

The Damage shield is equal to the allies health as well.

Wouldn't DK tanks still be useful for their Stagger stacks and Engulfing Flames debuff?

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

• Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
• 10% from Minor Force Already mentioned earlier if you use Trap you still get damage from this skill
• 12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive Provides a degree of flex other races don't get
• 1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%) Also provides stacks of crit chance
• 12% from Sul-Xan's Torment Also provides a considerable crit chance bonus
• 2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%) Allows for more flex (e.g. penetration from light)
• 10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive Provides a degree of flex other classes don't get

NB also get 10% from one of their passives.

BattleAxe

pandazooka wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

...Your right only the dk gets the cap at 3% but it also provides a sizable shield to the group. Yes again 1 person can use the synergy but still that synergy could be proccing a dps in alkosh or give a person that small boost in resources to fire off a skill. Also likely warhorn will still be utilized because not everyone will necessarily be at the crit dmg cap so yes warhorn may be wasted on you but it also is giving you some added resources and would maybe allow you to change out a piece of gear for something else possibly.

do you mean the Igneous Shield skill? the one that gives members of your group around 3k shield? don't want to be rude, but that will not save anyone from dying to mechanics. it's nice to have, but you absolutely can't rely on it. it generally can't be activated on demand (with regards to other group members), the size is small and no group will bring a DK tank to Trials because of Igneous Shield..

and yes, synergies are great, but again - do you feel starved for synergies these days? there are more synergies flying around that you can actually use. so no DD wearing Alkosh will miss that one synergy which a DK tank can provide every couple of minutes. remember, 250 Ultimate for one single synergy is a bad trade if you can have a Necromancer tank giving you Major Vulnerability for 225 Ultimate..

Magma shell the ultimate reduces all incoming dmg to 3% and gives all allies a damage shield

The Damage shield is equal to the allies health as well.

Wouldn't DK tanks still be useful for their Stagger stacks and Engulfing Flames debuff?

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

• Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
• 10% from Minor Force Already mentioned earlier if you use Trap you still get damage from this skill
• 12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive Provides a degree of flex other races don't get
• 1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%) Also provides stacks of crit chance
• 12% from Sul-Xan's Torment Also provides a considerable crit chance bonus
• 2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%) Allows for more flex (e.g. penetration from light)
• 10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive Provides a degree of flex other classes don't get

NB also get 10% from one of their passives.

Yes more than likely dk will still remain go to tank even if warhorn is dropped

Sordidfairytale

pandazooka wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

...Your right only the dk gets the cap at 3% but it also provides a sizable shield to the group. Yes again 1 person can use the synergy but still that synergy could be proccing a dps in alkosh or give a person that small boost in resources to fire off a skill. Also likely warhorn will still be utilized because not everyone will necessarily be at the crit dmg cap so yes warhorn may be wasted on you but it also is giving you some added resources and would maybe allow you to change out a piece of gear for something else possibly.

do you mean the Igneous Shield skill? the one that gives members of your group around 3k shield? don't want to be rude, but that will not save anyone from dying to mechanics. it's nice to have, but you absolutely can't rely on it. it generally can't be activated on demand (with regards to other group members), the size is small and no group will bring a DK tank to Trials because of Igneous Shield..

and yes, synergies are great, but again - do you feel starved for synergies these days? there are more synergies flying around that you can actually use. so no DD wearing Alkosh will miss that one synergy which a DK tank can provide every couple of minutes. remember, 250 Ultimate for one single synergy is a bad trade if you can have a Necromancer tank giving you Major Vulnerability for 225 Ultimate..

Magma shell the ultimate reduces all incoming dmg to 3% and gives all allies a damage shield

The Damage shield is equal to the allies health as well.

Wouldn't DK tanks still be useful for their Stagger stacks and Engulfing Flames debuff?

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

• Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
• 10% from Minor Force Already mentioned earlier if you use Trap you still get damage from this skill
• 12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive Provides a degree of flex other races don't get
• 1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%) Also provides stacks of crit chance
• 12% from Sul-Xan's Torment Also provides a considerable crit chance bonus
• 2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%) Allows for more flex (e.g. penetration from light)
• 10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive Provides a degree of flex other classes don't get

NB also get 10% from one of their passives.

Yes, the Templar Piercing Spear Passive can be swapped out for Nightblade or Warden against a chilled target. Those three classes all have a degree of flexibility that other classes don't get.

YandereGirlfriend

I'm still not seeing a problem here - only people too stubborn to modestly adjust their builds.

Every patch creates winners and losers to varying degrees. One hasn't truly lived in ESO unless they've had a single patch require the complete rebuild of at least a large handful of characters (I primarily PvP so this happens to me basically every patch). Framed like that, I'm just not seeing the life-and-death drama created by the prospect of dropping Trap Beast from a build.

The cap is coming in the next patch so my advice to those whinging against it is to figure out how they are going to deal with it. The days of your Khajiiti StamPlar stacking all Critical Damage sets are done and that's okay. Slot different CP, use a different set, figure out whether or not you want to replace Trap Beast with something like Consuming Trap, etc. Everything will be fine, I promise.

twing1_

I for one am super happy about the crit cap at 125%. Many people are complaining that the addition of the crit cap is pigeon holing them into not using certain skills or barring them from using certain sets.

I feel the exact opposite.

Finally I dont feel like I need to slot the cp stars fighting finesse and back stabber. Finally I don't have to put trap on my bar. Finally I don't feel like I'm missing out too much by not wearing kilt.

ZOS's goal in adding the crit cap was to open up build diversity so that PvE isn't all about stacking crit and crit damage, and in that sense they've accomplished that mission. Now I finally feel free to experiment with stat bonuses other than crit damage after the cap has been hit.

On my redguard stamplar, here's what my crit damage is going to start looking like:

50% base
10% temp passive
14% medium armor
10% minor force
20% major force
10% fighting finesse
10% brittle

124% total

And now I have 2 whole 5 pc set bonuses available to choose from, where I'm not pigeonholed into using something like kilt or Sul xan because it's BiS. But, if I still want to use one of those I can of course put one or both of those on and drop probably fighting finesse or minor force to compensate, instead opting for another 10% dmg cp star or DoT other than trap.

Yes, the cap is limiting in that nobody can stack more than 125% crit damage anymore, but in terms of end game viability, I expect to see a massive increase in build diversity.

Trixterion

twing1_ wrote: »

I for one am super happy about the crit cap at 125%. Many people are complaining that the addition of the crit cap is pigeon holing them into not using certain skills or barring them from using certain sets.

I feel the exact opposite.

Finally I dont feel like I need to slot the cp stars fighting finesse and back stabber. Finally I don't have to put trap on my bar. Finally I don't feel like I'm missing out too much by not wearing kilt.

ZOS's goal in adding the crit cap was to open up build diversity so that PvE isn't all about stacking crit and crit damage, and in that sense they've accomplished that mission. Now I finally feel free to experiment with stat bonuses other than crit damage after the cap has been hit.

On my redguard stamplar, here's what my crit damage is going to start looking like:

50% base
10% temp passive
14% medium armor
10% minor force
20% major force
10% fighting finesse
10% brittle

124% total

And now I have 2 whole 5 pc set bonuses available to choose from, where I'm not pigeonholed into using something like kilt or Sul xan because it's BiS. But, if I still want to use one of those I can of course put one or both of those on and drop probably fighting finesse or minor force to compensate, instead opting for another 10% dmg cp star or DoT other than trap.

Yes, the cap is limiting in that nobody can stack more than 125% crit damage anymore, but in terms of end game viability, I expect to see a massive increase in build diversity.

And if the Raid leader will say that there will be Elemental Catalyst present, just switch 2 medium for light and fighting finesse for something. For every cat lover, just swap some medium armor for light.
I am 100% sure, that testers will find with all hybridization coming out what will be BiS and the ways you should approach it with each class and race. The meta will change dramatically and we all be counting our crit damage in our character sheets just like we do with pen

Grandchamp1989

Trixterion wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

I for one am super happy about the crit cap at 125%. Many people are complaining that the addition of the crit cap is pigeon holing them into not using certain skills or barring them from using certain sets.

I feel the exact opposite.

Finally I dont feel like I need to slot the cp stars fighting finesse and back stabber. Finally I don't have to put trap on my bar. Finally I don't feel like I'm missing out too much by not wearing kilt.

ZOS's goal in adding the crit cap was to open up build diversity so that PvE isn't all about stacking crit and crit damage, and in that sense they've accomplished that mission. Now I finally feel free to experiment with stat bonuses other than crit damage after the cap has been hit.

On my redguard stamplar, here's what my crit damage is going to start looking like:

50% base
10% temp passive
14% medium armor
10% minor force
20% major force
10% fighting finesse
10% brittle

124% total

And now I have 2 whole 5 pc set bonuses available to choose from, where I'm not pigeonholed into using something like kilt or Sul xan because it's BiS. But, if I still want to use one of those I can of course put one or both of those on and drop probably fighting finesse or minor force to compensate, instead opting for another 10% dmg cp star or DoT other than trap.

Yes, the cap is limiting in that nobody can stack more than 125% crit damage anymore, but in terms of end game viability, I expect to see a massive increase in build diversity.

And if the Raid leader will say that there will be Elemental Catalyst present, just switch 2 medium for light and fighting finesse for something. For every cat lover, just swap some medium armor for light.
I am 100% sure, that testers will find with all hybridization coming out what will be BiS and the ways you should approach it with each class and race. The meta will change dramatically and we all be counting our crit damage in our character sheets just like we do with pen

lolol just imagine being a new player trying to progress going forward 😂

>How can I raid?

-Well, Timmy
First you need to coordinate with the group to make sure you have 18300 total penetration.
This differs highly depending if you are Stamina or Magicka Based.

Then you need to go through your CP, buffs and sets to make sure you have 125 crit dmg which is cap.
This also differs depending on class/race/armor type, and you Will have to factor in expected group buffs.

Then you need to light attack weave ideally in a factor of 0.9+

>Timmy: o.O Cant I just heal?

-Well, yes you can but pick up a chair… this might take awhile because healing is one of the lesser used skillsets a healer must provide…

SaintSubwayy

twing1_ wrote: »

I for one am super happy about the crit cap at 125%. Many people are complaining that the addition of the crit cap is pigeon holing them into not using certain skills or barring them from using certain sets.

I feel the exact opposite.

Finally I dont feel like I need to slot the cp stars fighting finesse and back stabber. Finally I don't have to put trap on my bar. Finally I don't feel like I'm missing out too much by not wearing kilt.

ZOS's goal in adding the crit cap was to open up build diversity so that PvE isn't all about stacking crit and crit damage, and in that sense they've accomplished that mission. Now I finally feel free to experiment with stat bonuses other than crit damage after the cap has been hit.

On my redguard stamplar, here's what my crit damage is going to start looking like:

50% base
10% temp passive
14% medium armor
10% minor force
20% major force
10% fighting finesse
10% brittle

124% total

And now I have 2 whole 5 pc set bonuses available to choose from, where I'm not pigeonholed into using something like kilt or Sul xan because it's BiS. But, if I still want to use one of those I can of course put one or both of those on and drop probably fighting finesse or minor force to compensate, instead opting for another 10% dmg cp star or DoT other than trap.

Yes, the cap is limiting in that nobody can stack more than 125% crit damage anymore, but in terms of end game viability, I expect to see a massive increase in build diversity.

Exactly this

I've seen so many staminaplayers whine about the cap, however beeing stamina and playing in medium already gives them 14% Crit Dmg which means they can easily drop Backstabber and / or fithing finesse to equipp another CP Star
(and an additional 14% WD!! -> which is massive on stam)

Sure if you want to build a whole endgame PVE Trialgroup arround stamina, they need to run Alkosh via DD's to get the required penetration, but since they already have a WD buff in Med Armor and can easily frontbar 1 sharpened mace on offhand (with DW ofc) or a sharpened 2h, they will also reach the required penetration

Keep in mind that magicka groups still can run EC (dropp Backstabber for that if uptime is good) and Z'en (which is now also viable on stam) and MK (which is even more viable on stam now) and stamina also get Morag Tong as a supportset its pretty much even ground mow.

Mixed groups are a whole different beast from another dimension atm, but atleast more viable than before.

Trixterion

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

I for one am super happy about the crit cap at 125%. Many people are complaining that the addition of the crit cap is pigeon holing them into not using certain skills or barring them from using certain sets.

I feel the exact opposite.

Finally I dont feel like I need to slot the cp stars fighting finesse and back stabber. Finally I don't have to put trap on my bar. Finally I don't feel like I'm missing out too much by not wearing kilt.

ZOS's goal in adding the crit cap was to open up build diversity so that PvE isn't all about stacking crit and crit damage, and in that sense they've accomplished that mission. Now I finally feel free to experiment with stat bonuses other than crit damage after the cap has been hit.

On my redguard stamplar, here's what my crit damage is going to start looking like:

50% base
10% temp passive
14% medium armor
10% minor force
20% major force
10% fighting finesse
10% brittle

124% total

And now I have 2 whole 5 pc set bonuses available to choose from, where I'm not pigeonholed into using something like kilt or Sul xan because it's BiS. But, if I still want to use one of those I can of course put one or both of those on and drop probably fighting finesse or minor force to compensate, instead opting for another 10% dmg cp star or DoT other than trap.

Yes, the cap is limiting in that nobody can stack more than 125% crit damage anymore, but in terms of end game viability, I expect to see a massive increase in build diversity.

And if the Raid leader will say that there will be Elemental Catalyst present, just switch 2 medium for light and fighting finesse for something. For every cat lover, just swap some medium armor for light.
I am 100% sure, that testers will find with all hybridization coming out what will be BiS and the ways you should approach it with each class and race. The meta will change dramatically and we all be counting our crit damage in our character sheets just like we do with pen

lolol just imagine being a new player trying to progress going forward 😂

>How can I raid?

-Well, Timmy
First you need to coordinate with the group to make sure you have 18300 total penetration.
This differs highly depending if you are Stamina or Magicka Based.

Then you need to go through your CP, buffs and sets to make sure you have 125 crit dmg which is cap.
This also differs depending on class/race/armor type, and you Will have to factor in expected group buffs.

Then you need to light attack weave ideally in a factor of 0.9+

>Timmy: o.O Cant I just heal?

-Well, yes you can but pick up a chair… this might take awhile because healing is one of the lesser used skillsets a healer must provide…

Sure, but that doesn't change a lot and here is IRL example:
One of my guildmates asked in chat how to Stamplar in order to not get kicked from vet dungeon?(what can be more easy than that?)
I've bought him food, gear, enchanted everything by myself, forced him to get right mundus, tried to explain at least 1 bar rotation so that he will be able to at least kill 3mil dummy.
And you know what's happened? He said that this is already too much information, gone mad and left the house to questing for the rest of his life. Please share your wisdom of how to teach average Skyrim player "how to become at least not punishable"?

Noldornir

mzprx wrote: »

DK tanks and Warhorn will become obsolete overnight if the 125% cap goes live. i am sitting at 126% without Fighting Finesse and Backstabber only because i am a Khajiit stamina Templar. and i had to take off Sul-Xan, or it would take me to 138%, which will do me no good. so i 100% do NOT want to see a DK tank using Warhorn in my group. and this is not only problem for stamina groups. people don't really have to try hard to get to the cap even with all magicka setup, so DKs (until now arguably the best tanks) will be sent packing, as they have no other usable Ultimate that would give anything to the group..

some people have suggested raising the cap to 150%. that would actually be a solution, as it would allow certain builds to use their gear to it's full potential and also use DKs as tanks with Warhorn. poor Catalyst Necromancers and Brittle Wardens. no one will ever want them in their group any more. even with the cap raised to 150%. someone at ZOS didn't think this through..

If everyone drops the horn then all DD will have ~5k less resources= less damage. Horn will not be dropped IMHO, in case we won't need the major force buff then we'll just use 2 horns instead of 4 and cast those every 30 secs instead of every 10 to keep up the boosted stats.

Also in case major force won't be required also saxhleel will become a worthless set but, imho, it will be better to keep up major force and drop something else (like minor force or swap CP to get all damage boosts).

This would be particularly good on some class, take the magplar as an example:

Jabs= AOE+Direct Damage
Barrage= AOE+Direct
Jesus= Single Target+DOT
Purifying Light= Single target+Direct

These are the two "spammable" of plar, one used early on while the other in execute but, if you want to boost them all you'll need 4 slotted CP. Now you can most likely use 2 only as the other two are most likely backstabber and finesse.

mzprx

twing1_ wrote: »

...On my redguard stamplar, here's what my crit damage is going to start looking like:

50% base
10% temp passive
14% medium armor
10% minor force
20% major force
10% fighting finesse
10% brittle

124% total

And now I have 2 whole 5 pc set bonuses available to choose from, where I'm not pigeonholed into using something like kilt or Sul xan because it's BiS. But, if I still want to use one of those I can of course put one or both of those on and drop probably fighting finesse or minor force to compensate, instead opting for another 10% dmg cp star or DoT other than trap...

well, this is exactly where the problem lies. you are fine. me, not so much. if i want to usethe skills and gear that i want to use (and have spent time to farm and gold mats to upgrade) the bare minimum it puts me at is 118%. i have not slotted any critical damage CP slottables, there are no Catalyst Necromancers, Brittle Wardens in my group, or DK tanks with their Warhorns. any of those will put me over the cap. so i am going to be "punished" just because i am a Khajiit. and it's not about "just farm or get another gear or don't use the Kilt". why would i not use the best gear that i have? why should i deliberately gimp meself just to not go over some cap?..

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

...Exactly this

I've seen so many staminaplayers whine about the cap, however beeing stamina and playing in medium already gives them 14% Crit Dmg which means they can easily drop Backstabber and / or fithing finesse to equipp another CP Star
(and an additional 14% WD!! -> which is massive on stam)

Sure if you want to build a whole endgame PVE Trialgroup arround stamina, they need to run Alkosh via DD's to get the required penetration, but since they already have a WD buff in Med Armor and can easily frontbar 1 sharpened mace on offhand (with DW ofc) or a sharpened 2h, they will also reach the required penetration...

thing is, you will now have two caps you have to take into consideration. you will never go above the penetration cap just by having certain classes or gear sets in your group. but you can go over the critical damage bonus cap extremely easy even before you have those classes or gear sets present. some people say "just drop the medium armour and use light". but why? to start having issues with sustain instead of critical damage cap? just this last patch we lost critical chance and got critical damage on our passives. which now makes stamina players, who are already not really desirable in Trials even more unusable. because now we have to look out for one more cap..

raising this cap to 150% would at least provide much needed breathing space for us. and lower the critical damage ZOS is so worried about at the same time. 125% is way too punishing..

mzprx

BattleAxe wrote: »

...Magma shell the ultimate reduces all incoming dmg to 3% and gives all allies a damage shield

eh, my apologies, i forgot about that one. you are right. but still. 250 Ultimate for a synergy for one player and a shield is not a good trade. IMO..

Trixterion

There is only one thing that I want to be changed: exclude the critical damage taken from the cap, please. Frost Wardens will be punished the most:
•10% critical damage taken from Brittle;
•10% critical damage and healing taken from Glacial Presence;
•15% critical damage taken from Elemental Catalyst.
Therefore, in order to reach the cap we have to get 125%-10%-10%-15%-50%(base modifier)= 40%.
That means we have to use Fighting Finesse with Major and Minor Force therefore we do not have almost no room to change anything. Why would ZOS changes NB spectral bow with intention to not waist any crit damage NB has (as it has double 10% crit damage integrated) while Warden technically also has double 10% critical damage as debuffs and we do not have other damage related options to invest in(unlike NB, SORC, TEMLAR)

Saieden

twing1_ wrote: »

I for one am super happy about the crit cap at 125%. Many people are complaining that the addition of the crit cap is pigeon holing them into not using certain skills or barring them from using certain sets.

I feel the exact opposite.

Finally I dont feel like I need to slot the cp stars fighting finesse and back stabber. Finally I don't have to put trap on my bar. Finally I don't feel like I'm missing out too much by not wearing kilt.

ZOS's goal in adding the crit cap was to open up build diversity so that PvE isn't all about stacking crit and crit damage, and in that sense they've accomplished that mission. Now I finally feel free to experiment with stat bonuses other than crit damage after the cap has been hit.

On my redguard stamplar, here's what my crit damage is going to start looking like:

50% base
10% temp passive
14% medium armor
10% minor force
20% major force
10% fighting finesse
10% brittle

124% total

And now I have 2 whole 5 pc set bonuses available to choose from, where I'm not pigeonholed into using something like kilt or Sul xan because it's BiS. But, if I still want to use one of those I can of course put one or both of those on and drop probably fighting finesse or minor force to compensate, instead opting for another 10% dmg cp star or DoT other than trap.

Yes, the cap is limiting in that nobody can stack more than 125% crit damage anymore, but in terms of end game viability, I expect to see a massive increase in build diversity.

I agree, I will be only too happy to drop barbed and backstabber for other options, and in fact might go out of my way to do so. They're nice for parsing (and probably should be used there still in many cases) but in actual content both can be an absolute pain to manage, especially in pugs with tanks that can't stand still for 3 seconds.

SaintSubwayy

mzprx wrote: »

thing is, you will now have two caps you have to take into consideration. you will never go above the penetration cap just by having certain classes or gear sets in your group. but you can go over the critical damage bonus cap extremely easy even before you have those classes or gear sets present. some people say "just drop the medium armour and use light". but why? to start having issues with sustain instead of critical damage cap? just this last patch we lost critical chance and got critical damage on our passives. which now makes stamina players, who are already not really desirable in Trials even more unusable. because now we have to look out for one more cap..

raising this cap to 150% would at least provide much needed breathing space for us. and lower the critical damage ZOS is so worried about at the same time. 125% is way too punishing..

you certainly can go over the pen Cap just by using certain sets in your group like Alkosh and/or Crimson Oath
And both sets can be used in stamina groups, just like Magicka groups play EC, your can use Alkosh on a DD so I dont see the problem here.

And Stamina isnt ba dina trail, but you need to adjust the whole group to stamina, mixed groups atm are garbage, since each style needs their own buffsets, which need to buff alot of other players to compensate the DMG loss for the DD wearing them.

By running a Mixed group you'll end up with overpenn for magicka players, since stams need the extra pen from alkosh and stams will end up over the critcap form magickas wanting EC.

On STam you can easily consider dropping Backstabber and / or Fithig finesse and switch in a WD CP (Which will be buffed another 14% from your med armor) or any other blue slottable of your liking

mzprx

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

...you certainly can go over the pen Cap just by using certain sets in your group like Alkosh and/or Crimson Oath
And both sets can be used in stamina groups, just like Magicka groups play EC, your can use Alkosh on a DD so I dont see the problem here.

And Stamina isnt ba dina trail, but you need to adjust the whole group to stamina, mixed groups atm are garbage, since each style needs their own buffsets, which need to buff alot of other players to compensate the DMG loss for the DD wearing them.

By running a Mixed group you'll end up with overpenn for magicka players, since stams need the extra pen from alkosh and stams will end up over the critcap form magickas wanting EC.

On STam you can easily consider dropping Backstabber and / or Fithig finesse and switch in a WD CP (Which will be buffed another 14% from your med armor) or any other blue slottable of your liking

yes, you can go over the penetration cap, but you have to build for it. you don't go over just for using the best sets available to you (Sul-Xan and Kilt in my case). you specifically need to wear certain sets and use certain traits to get to or over the penetration cap. and here i am, sitting at the critical damage bonus cap (or slightly below) without using the best sets available to me and without slotting Backstabber and Fighting Finesse. that is what i am trying to say. i have to dumb down my gear and use worse setup just so i don't go over the cap. and all this is without DK tank using Warhorn, Catalyst Necromancer or Brittle Warden. if i have them in my group i have to go even lower and use gear that is simply way too weak..

running mixed group is exactly what is wrong with the game ATM. nobody wants any stamina DDs in a Trial group if they can help it, because they will have to cater towards them with more penetration debuffs instead of boosting the damage overall for everyone. taking away the critical chance from Medium armour and giving it critical damage is making our life as stamina DDs even worse, because we have to watch out so we don't cross over another cap. so i either have to stop using my 8th most damaging ability (Trap) or i can't be in a group with a DK tank, Brittle Warden or Catalyst Necromancer. i am repeating myself here, but that is how it is ATM..

Sanguinor2

mzprx wrote: »

yes, you can go over the penetration cap, but you have to build for it. you don't go over just for using the best sets available to you (Sul-Xan and Kilt in my case). you specifically need to wear certain sets and use certain traits to get to or over the penetration cap. and here i am, sitting at the critical damage bonus cap (or slightly below) without using the best sets available to me and without slotting Backstabber and Fighting Finesse. that is what i am trying to say. i have to dumb down my gear and use worse setup just so i don't go over the cap. and all this is without DK tank using Warhorn, Catalyst Necromancer or Brittle Warden. if i have them in my group i have to go even lower and use gear that is simply way too weak..

running mixed group is exactly what is wrong with the game ATM. nobody wants any stamina DDs in a Trial group if they can help it, because they will have to cater towards them with more penetration debuffs instead of boosting the damage overall for everyone. taking away the critical chance from Medium armour and giving it critical damage is making our life as stamina DDs even worse, because we have to watch out so we don't cross over another cap. so i either have to stop using my 8th most damaging ability (Trap) or i can't be in a group with a DK tank, Brittle Warden or Catalyst Necromancer. i am repeating myself here, but that is how it is ATM..

If you have access to the pts you could test how the crit damage cap works with malacath. Aka if you are at 175% crit damage do you still reach the crit damage cap while getting malacaths 16% damage done bonus. Might be worth a try if you are crit stacking anyway.

kojou

Trixterion wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

I for one am super happy about the crit cap at 125%. Many people are complaining that the addition of the crit cap is pigeon holing them into not using certain skills or barring them from using certain sets.

I feel the exact opposite.

Finally I dont feel like I need to slot the cp stars fighting finesse and back stabber. Finally I don't have to put trap on my bar. Finally I don't feel like I'm missing out too much by not wearing kilt.

ZOS's goal in adding the crit cap was to open up build diversity so that PvE isn't all about stacking crit and crit damage, and in that sense they've accomplished that mission. Now I finally feel free to experiment with stat bonuses other than crit damage after the cap has been hit.

On my redguard stamplar, here's what my crit damage is going to start looking like:

50% base
10% temp passive
14% medium armor
10% minor force
20% major force
10% fighting finesse
10% brittle

124% total

And now I have 2 whole 5 pc set bonuses available to choose from, where I'm not pigeonholed into using something like kilt or Sul xan because it's BiS. But, if I still want to use one of those I can of course put one or both of those on and drop probably fighting finesse or minor force to compensate, instead opting for another 10% dmg cp star or DoT other than trap.

Yes, the cap is limiting in that nobody can stack more than 125% crit damage anymore, but in terms of end game viability, I expect to see a massive increase in build diversity.

And if the Raid leader will say that there will be Elemental Catalyst present, just switch 2 medium for light and fighting finesse for something. For every cat lover, just swap some medium armor for light.
I am 100% sure, that testers will find with all hybridization coming out what will be BiS and the ways you should approach it with each class and race. The meta will change dramatically and we all be counting our crit damage in our character sheets just like we do with pen

lolol just imagine being a new player trying to progress going forward 😂

>How can I raid?

-Well, Timmy
First you need to coordinate with the group to make sure you have 18300 total penetration.
This differs highly depending if you are Stamina or Magicka Based.

Then you need to go through your CP, buffs and sets to make sure you have 125 crit dmg which is cap.
This also differs depending on class/race/armor type, and you Will have to factor in expected group buffs.

Then you need to light attack weave ideally in a factor of 0.9+

>Timmy: o.O Cant I just heal?

-Well, yes you can but pick up a chair… this might take awhile because healing is one of the lesser used skillsets a healer must provide…

Sure, but that doesn't change a lot and here is IRL example:
One of my guildmates asked in chat how to Stamplar in order to not get kicked from vet dungeon?(what can be more easy than that?)
I've bought him food, gear, enchanted everything by myself, forced him to get right mundus, tried to explain at least 1 bar rotation so that he will be able to at least kill 3mil dummy.
And you know what's happened? He said that this is already too much information, gone mad and left the house to questing for the rest of his life. Please share your wisdom of how to teach average Skyrim player "how to become at least not punishable"?

There are people that are willing to optimize and learn to improve their combat skills and there are those that just want to read stories, dress up their characters, decorate their houses, and occasionally kill something. This isn't anything new.

I like the cap and fully support it. I don't think it would be necessary if the combat team hadn't introduced so many sources of crit damage, but that is a different discussion...

Give it a couple weeks. Teams will figure out how to hit the 125% and then add more damage other ways to optimize the groups.

jaws343

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

yes, you can go over the penetration cap, but you have to build for it. you don't go over just for using the best sets available to you (Sul-Xan and Kilt in my case). you specifically need to wear certain sets and use certain traits to get to or over the penetration cap. and here i am, sitting at the critical damage bonus cap (or slightly below) without using the best sets available to me and without slotting Backstabber and Fighting Finesse. that is what i am trying to say. i have to dumb down my gear and use worse setup just so i don't go over the cap. and all this is without DK tank using Warhorn, Catalyst Necromancer or Brittle Warden. if i have them in my group i have to go even lower and use gear that is simply way too weak..

running mixed group is exactly what is wrong with the game ATM. nobody wants any stamina DDs in a Trial group if they can help it, because they will have to cater towards them with more penetration debuffs instead of boosting the damage overall for everyone. taking away the critical chance from Medium armour and giving it critical damage is making our life as stamina DDs even worse, because we have to watch out so we don't cross over another cap. so i either have to stop using my 8th most damaging ability (Trap) or i can't be in a group with a DK tank, Brittle Warden or Catalyst Necromancer. i am repeating myself here, but that is how it is ATM..

If you have access to the pts you could test how the crit damage cap works with malacath. Aka if you are at 175% crit damage do you still reach the crit damage cap while getting malacaths 16% damage done bonus. Might be worth a try if you are crit stacking anyway.

I just posted something similar and then saw this. Yeah, it will be interesting to see how Malacath might work with this cap.

mzprx

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

...If you have access to the pts you could test how the crit damage cap works with malacath. Aka if you are at 175% crit damage do you still reach the crit damage cap while getting malacaths 16% damage done bonus. Might be worth a try if you are crit stacking anyway.

Malacath is weaker in PvE than the Kilt. and that is exactly what i was talking about. in order to not go over the cap i have to use weaker gear than that i would like to use and have available. so everyone who is NOT a Khajiit is already at an advantage, as they can still use that better gear and not be punished for it. increasing the cap to 150% would mitigate this issue and still provide some room for DK tanks, Catalyst Necromancers or Brittle Wardens. and it would be 55% lowe than what you can achieve ATM, so that would also solve their (ZOS') issue with too much critical damage bonuses..

jaws343

mzprx wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

...On my redguard stamplar, here's what my crit damage is going to start looking like:

50% base
10% temp passive
14% medium armor
10% minor force
20% major force
10% fighting finesse
10% brittle

124% total

And now I have 2 whole 5 pc set bonuses available to choose from, where I'm not pigeonholed into using something like kilt or Sul xan because it's BiS. But, if I still want to use one of those I can of course put one or both of those on and drop probably fighting finesse or minor force to compensate, instead opting for another 10% dmg cp star or DoT other than trap...

well, this is exactly where the problem lies. you are fine. me, not so much. if i want to usethe skills and gear that i want to use (and have spent time to farm and gold mats to upgrade) the bare minimum it puts me at is 118%. i have not slotted any critical damage CP slottables, there are no Catalyst Necromancers, Brittle Wardens in my group, or DK tanks with their Warhorns. any of those will put me over the cap. so i am going to be "punished" just because i am a Khajiit. and it's not about "just farm or get another gear or don't use the Kilt". why would i not use the best gear that i have? why should i deliberately gimp meself just to not go over some cap?..

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

...Exactly this

I've seen so many staminaplayers whine about the cap, however beeing stamina and playing in medium already gives them 14% Crit Dmg which means they can easily drop Backstabber and / or fithing finesse to equipp another CP Star
(and an additional 14% WD!! -> which is massive on stam)

Sure if you want to build a whole endgame PVE Trialgroup arround stamina, they need to run Alkosh via DD's to get the required penetration, but since they already have a WD buff in Med Armor and can easily frontbar 1 sharpened mace on offhand (with DW ofc) or a sharpened 2h, they will also reach the required penetration...

thing is, you will now have two caps you have to take into consideration. you will never go above the penetration cap just by having certain classes or gear sets in your group. but you can go over the critical damage bonus cap extremely easy even before you have those classes or gear sets present. some people say "just drop the medium armour and use light". but why? to start having issues with sustain instead of critical damage cap? just this last patch we lost critical chance and got critical damage on our passives. which now makes stamina players, who are already not really desirable in Trials even more unusable. because now we have to look out for one more cap..

raising this cap to 150% would at least provide much needed breathing space for us. and lower the critical damage ZOS is so worried about at the same time. 125% is way too punishing..

You wouldn't use the best gear that you have because it is no longer the best gear for the new meta. Just like any meta shift, the 125% cap is going to require reworking gear and skills to find the new balance. This was the intent of them putting in the cap, to limit players stacking crit damage and provide avenues for other damage boosting sets/abilities to make it into builds.

jaws343

mzprx wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

...If you have access to the pts you could test how the crit damage cap works with malacath. Aka if you are at 175% crit damage do you still reach the crit damage cap while getting malacaths 16% damage done bonus. Might be worth a try if you are crit stacking anyway.

Malacath is weaker in PvE than the Kilt. and that is exactly what i was talking about. in order to not go over the cap i have to use weaker gear than that i would like to use and have available. so everyone who is NOT a Khajiit is already at an advantage, as they can still use that better gear and not be punished for it. increasing the cap to 150% would mitigate this issue and still provide some room for DK tanks, Catalyst Necromancers or Brittle Wardens. and it would be 55% lowe than what you can achieve ATM, so that would also solve their (ZOS') issue with too much critical damage bonuses..

Weaker in the current patch. Who cares about how strong or weak something is now. What is important is how it will perform after the crit cap changes.

Sanguinor2

mzprx wrote: »

Malacath is weaker in PvE than the Kilt. and that is exactly what i was talking about. in order to not go over the cap i have to use weaker gear than that i would like to use and have available. so everyone who is NOT a Khajiit is already at an advantage, as they can still use that better gear and not be punished for it. increasing the cap to 150% would mitigate this issue and still provide some room for DK tanks, Catalyst Necromancers or Brittle Wardens. and it would be 55% lowe than what you can achieve ATM, so that would also solve their (ZOS') issue with too much critical damage bonuses..

Malacath was weaker when there was no crit damage cap. If you can reach the crit damage cap now while having malacath on I would assume that even with diminishing returns of % damage increases malacath will be better than kilt for the medium armor khajit nightblades people are concerned about. So yeah just try it out if you can, if it doesnt achieve anything you can still complain but you should test alternatives first.

mzprx

jaws343 wrote: »

...You wouldn't use the best gear that you have because it is no longer the best gear for the new meta. Just like any meta shift, the 125% cap is going to require reworking gear and skills to find the new balance. This was the intent of them putting in the cap, to limit players stacking crit damage and provide avenues for other damage boosting sets/abilities to make it into builds.

that is not necessarily true. it is still the best gear for everyone who is not a Khajiit. you see, i shouldn't be punished because i want to play as a certain race when every other race is off the hook, so to speak. they (ZOS) are trying to promote the "play as you want" gameplay and i do want to play as i want. but introducing the cap at 125%, taking away critical chance and giving us critical damage as a medium armour passive just one patch ago, putting all the gear into the game that increases critical damage, someone at ZOS didn't think this through..

jaws343

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...You wouldn't use the best gear that you have because it is no longer the best gear for the new meta. Just like any meta shift, the 125% cap is going to require reworking gear and skills to find the new balance. This was the intent of them putting in the cap, to limit players stacking crit damage and provide avenues for other damage boosting sets/abilities to make it into builds.

that is not necessarily true. it is still the best gear for everyone who is not a Khajiit. you see, i shouldn't be punished because i want to play as a certain race when every other race is off the hook, so to speak. they (ZOS) are trying to promote the "play as you want" gameplay and i do want to play as i want. but introducing the cap at 125%, taking away critical chance and giving us critical damage as a medium armour passive just one patch ago, putting all the gear into the game that increases critical damage, someone at ZOS didn't think this through..

I don't think I understand this part. They put in a bunch of gear that increases crit damage to provide options, and different ways to approach crit damage. Obviously not for everyone to stack all of the sets as much as possible. Which is why they are doing the cap. They are still keeping the options in place though, because that is the point of having sets with different sources of crit damage, options. Not requirements.

mzprx

jaws343 wrote: »

...I don't think I understand this part. They put in a bunch of gear that increases crit damage to provide options, and different ways to approach crit damage. Obviously not for everyone to stack all of the sets as much as possible. Which is why they are doing the cap. They are still keeping the options in place though, because that is the point of having sets with different sources of crit damage, options. Not requirements.

a couple of posts above i mentioned this -

Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
10% from Minor Force
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive

all this puts me at 118%, 7% below the cap without slotting Backstabber and Fighting Finesse. so if my group wants to use a DK tank, Catalyst Necromancer and/or Brittle Warden i will have to choose other gear that is not as strong as this one or i will go over the cap and that would be a waste. it's the same as penetration. let's say you have a couple of stamina DDs in your Trial group. you have to choose gear sets that provide more penetration because stamina DDs do not have penetration built in the armour passive. which means your magicka DDs are going to be over the cap. and you don't want that. so you have to choose - either kick all stamina DDs (which is, sadly, always the case nowadays, no one wants us in their Trial group) or your magicka DDs have to use weaker gear, literally deliberately gimp themselves so they don't get over the penetration cap. so here's me, sitting just below the critical damage cap. my group wants to use a DK tank plus Catalyst Necromancer for other players to reach the critical damage cap, as ther are magicka DDs (for example). i can then go home or start gimping meself in order to not go over the cap. so i have the best gear that i can have (or one of the best) but i can not use it and have to look for weaker gear sets if i want to participate in the group festivities, which also means i will do a lot less damage and they will ask me politely to buzz off. or i can use it, but it will be wasted on me 'cause i will be over the cap..

so it's not about certain gear sets being "meta". it's about me having the best gear available in my inventory and being forced to not use it..

Dark_Lord_Kuro

mzprx wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

...yeah you can drop optional stuff like minor force, kilt backstabber and fighting finesse...

this i have an issue with. not you or your point. ZOS is changing all sets to have hybrid stats because "play how you want". but forcing me to not use the Trap that actually deals pretty good damage just so i don't get over the cap is exactly the opposite of "play how you want". i want to use it. but i will have to drop it for the sake of "cap". that is not how i imagine "how you want"..

Then use it for the dot and not for the buff

FrancisCrawford

pandazooka wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

...Your right only the dk gets the cap at 3% but it also provides a sizable shield to the group. Yes again 1 person can use the synergy but still that synergy could be proccing a dps in alkosh or give a person that small boost in resources to fire off a skill. Also likely warhorn will still be utilized because not everyone will necessarily be at the crit dmg cap so yes warhorn may be wasted on you but it also is giving you some added resources and would maybe allow you to change out a piece of gear for something else possibly.

do you mean the Igneous Shield skill? the one that gives members of your group around 3k shield? don't want to be rude, but that will not save anyone from dying to mechanics. it's nice to have, but you absolutely can't rely on it. it generally can't be activated on demand (with regards to other group members), the size is small and no group will bring a DK tank to Trials because of Igneous Shield..

and yes, synergies are great, but again - do you feel starved for synergies these days? there are more synergies flying around that you can actually use. so no DD wearing Alkosh will miss that one synergy which a DK tank can provide every couple of minutes. remember, 250 Ultimate for one single synergy is a bad trade if you can have a Necromancer tank giving you Major Vulnerability for 225 Ultimate..

Magma shell the ultimate reduces all incoming dmg to 3% and gives all allies a damage shield

The Damage shield is equal to the allies health as well.

Wouldn't DK tanks still be useful for their Stagger stacks and Engulfing Flames debuff?

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

• Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
• 10% from Minor Force Already mentioned earlier if you use Trap you still get damage from this skill
• 12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive Provides a degree of flex other races don't get
• 1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%) Also provides stacks of crit chance
• 12% from Sul-Xan's Torment Also provides a considerable crit chance bonus
• 2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%) Allows for more flex (e.g. penetration from light)
• 10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive Provides a degree of flex other classes don't get

NB also get 10% from one of their passives.

Correct. But obviously, no one character gets both the Templar and Nightblade class bonuses.

jaws343

mzprx wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...I don't think I understand this part. They put in a bunch of gear that increases crit damage to provide options, and different ways to approach crit damage. Obviously not for everyone to stack all of the sets as much as possible. Which is why they are doing the cap. They are still keeping the options in place though, because that is the point of having sets with different sources of crit damage, options. Not requirements.

a couple of posts above i mentioned this -

Base 50% increase in damage with a critical hit
10% from Minor Force
12% from Khajiit Feline Ambush passive
1% per stack of Hunter's Focus from Harpooner's Wading Kilt (maximum 10%)
12% from Sul-Xan's Torment
2% per piece from Medium Armor Dexterity passive (maximum 14%)
10% from Templar's Piercing Spear passive

all this puts me at 118%, 7% below the cap without slotting Backstabber and Fighting Finesse. so if my group wants to use a DK tank, Catalyst Necromancer and/or Brittle Warden i will have to choose other gear that is not as strong as this one or i will go over the cap and that would be a waste. it's the same as penetration. let's say you have a couple of stamina DDs in your Trial group. you have to choose gear sets that provide more penetration because stamina DDs do not have penetration built in the armour passive. which means your magicka DDs are going to be over the cap. and you don't want that. so you have to choose - either kick all stamina DDs (which is, sadly, always the case nowadays, no one wants us in their Trial group) or your magicka DDs have to use weaker gear, literally deliberately gimp themselves so they don't get over the penetration cap. so here's me, sitting just below the critical damage cap. my group wants to use a DK tank plus Catalyst Necromancer for other players to reach the critical damage cap, as ther are magicka DDs (for example). i can then go home or start gimping meself in order to not go over the cap. so i have the best gear that i can have (or one of the best) but i can not use it and have to look for weaker gear sets if i want to participate in the group festivities, which also means i will do a lot less damage and they will ask me politely to buzz off. or i can use it, but it will be wasted on me 'cause i will be over the cap..

so it's not about certain gear sets being "meta". it's about me having the best gear available in my inventory and being forced to not use it..

But if the gear puts you over the cap, then it is not the best gear available for that build. So drop Sul Zan, drop Harpooner, drop trap beast. All are optional with the cap. Find damage elsewhere. It's not that difficult to adjust for this. And trying to force the same build from live into this is not really a valid strategy.