Power Lash is too powerful

VarisVaris

jaws343 wrote: »

I think it would be better to show the skills damage potential on a magdk since spell pen is going to be important for damage. When it performs on par with a stam spammable, without the type of pen that a mag build would have, then yeah, I would be concerned that this is very overtunded.

You pop corrosive and end any hope people had.

Jodynn

Power lash is fine; DK waited for a buff for like two years and we haven't had a single significant one until now.

Aldoss

VarisVaris wrote: »

I have dueled over and over on PTS since it launched and I have been playing Magdk for long enough to know what is fine and what is too much.

All I'm saying is posting numbers would do a lot for your case. Right now your argument is "It's OP, trust me". Please demonstrate.

Vevvev

VarisVaris wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I think it would be better to show the skills damage potential on a magdk since spell pen is going to be important for damage. When it performs on par with a stam spammable, without the type of pen that a mag build would have, then yeah, I would be concerned that this is very overtunded.

You pop corrosive and end any hope people had.

Until you meet the man with the Draugrkin DoT stacking build. Corrosive armor doesn't protect against that kind of offensive punishment being strung out across multiple instances instead of a few massive blows. And as a magDK in light armor I know being over penned against isn't the end of the world if you got your dodge rolls, blocks, and counter stuns down pat.

universal_wrath

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I was going to agree with OP and it being problematic because I thought of what it'd be like to be hit by 7 instant crystal frags in a row and it doesn't seem as bad as I thought..

Using ESO Skillbook:

Crystal Frag

• 2483 damage
• 2700 cost
• 35% chance on magicka skills to get instant frags that does 66% more damage (4122) for half cost (1350).
• Blood Magic passive: 10% heal. 25k-30k hp = 2.5k-3k heal (before BS)

Flame Lash

• 2323 damage
• 2295 cost
• Offbalance/Immbolized target grants Power Lash for roughly 19% more damage (2760) and half cost (1148).
• Heal return: 4839 reduced by 43%, but instant 2081 (before BS)

Now the heal will obviously scale with your damage stats, so I imagine it's probably quadruple that amount, while crystal frags would be at it's best there. Insta Frags is RNG based and the heal is lesser, but it's ranged and does way more damage.

Flame Lash is melee so the lower base cost is 1:1 with frags when considering it's intentional (-15% cost), the damage bonus isn't very much which matches the idea that you'd cast it more than once in a row and the heal is much stronger, but you also need to be in melee so higher healing makes sense.

Offbalance/immbolize is easier to time for, but has a higher cooldown than the uptime you can get from RNG Insta Frags.

TLDR: They seem in the same ball park power level and have bonuses that match the classes archetype. Sorc being the ranged/elusive/glass cannon and DK being the stand your ground/brute strength/sustained pressure class.

So.. nahhh. Seems fine

In BGs, being a range charcter us only good when you attack from your base, it takes 2-3 secs max for melee classes to reach you and be in their melee range. Unless there is a cluster abd nobody is being you attention because your damage is low, most of the time you play in melee range is magsorc as most classes do. Also, integrating blood magic passive in the comparison while ignoring combustion, warmth, and world in ruin seems unfair to me.

Jodynn

universal_wrath wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I was going to agree with OP and it being problematic because I thought of what it'd be like to be hit by 7 instant crystal frags in a row and it doesn't seem as bad as I thought..

Using ESO Skillbook:

Crystal Frag

• 2483 damage
• 2700 cost
• 35% chance on magicka skills to get instant frags that does 66% more damage (4122) for half cost (1350).
• Blood Magic passive: 10% heal. 25k-30k hp = 2.5k-3k heal (before BS)

Flame Lash

• 2323 damage
• 2295 cost
• Offbalance/Immbolized target grants Power Lash for roughly 19% more damage (2760) and half cost (1148).
• Heal return: 4839 reduced by 43%, but instant 2081 (before BS)

Now the heal will obviously scale with your damage stats, so I imagine it's probably quadruple that amount, while crystal frags would be at it's best there. Insta Frags is RNG based and the heal is lesser, but it's ranged and does way more damage.

Flame Lash is melee so the lower base cost is 1:1 with frags when considering it's intentional (-15% cost), the damage bonus isn't very much which matches the idea that you'd cast it more than once in a row and the heal is much stronger, but you also need to be in melee so higher healing makes sense.

Offbalance/immbolize is easier to time for, but has a higher cooldown than the uptime you can get from RNG Insta Frags.

TLDR: They seem in the same ball park power level and have bonuses that match the classes archetype. Sorc being the ranged/elusive/glass cannon and DK being the stand your ground/brute strength/sustained pressure class.

So.. nahhh. Seems fine

In BGs, being a range charcter us only good when you attack from your base, it takes 2-3 secs max for melee classes to reach you and be in their melee range. Unless there is a cluster abd nobody is being you attention because your damage is low, most of the time you play in melee range is magsorc as most classes do. Also, integrating blood magic passive in the comparison while ignoring combustion, warmth, and world in ruin seems unfair to me.

I've fought extremely good magsorcs, magcros, rangeplars, and magblades who kite me continually while fighting unleashing skill after skill while I have to run to them over and over and they get a huge mitigation of damage just from this.
If you are great at kiting while fighting, you can make range a lot more powerful than you are implying and undermining it; it's all about perspective, counterplay and skill.

universal_wrath

Jodynn wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I was going to agree with OP and it being problematic because I thought of what it'd be like to be hit by 7 instant crystal frags in a row and it doesn't seem as bad as I thought..

Using ESO Skillbook:

Crystal Frag

• 2483 damage
• 2700 cost
• 35% chance on magicka skills to get instant frags that does 66% more damage (4122) for half cost (1350).
• Blood Magic passive: 10% heal. 25k-30k hp = 2.5k-3k heal (before BS)

Flame Lash

• 2323 damage
• 2295 cost
• Offbalance/Immbolized target grants Power Lash for roughly 19% more damage (2760) and half cost (1148).
• Heal return: 4839 reduced by 43%, but instant 2081 (before BS)

Now the heal will obviously scale with your damage stats, so I imagine it's probably quadruple that amount, while crystal frags would be at it's best there. Insta Frags is RNG based and the heal is lesser, but it's ranged and does way more damage.

Flame Lash is melee so the lower base cost is 1:1 with frags when considering it's intentional (-15% cost), the damage bonus isn't very much which matches the idea that you'd cast it more than once in a row and the heal is much stronger, but you also need to be in melee so higher healing makes sense.

Offbalance/immbolize is easier to time for, but has a higher cooldown than the uptime you can get from RNG Insta Frags.

TLDR: They seem in the same ball park power level and have bonuses that match the classes archetype. Sorc being the ranged/elusive/glass cannon and DK being the stand your ground/brute strength/sustained pressure class.

So.. nahhh. Seems fine

In BGs, being a range charcter us only good when you attack from your base, it takes 2-3 secs max for melee classes to reach you and be in their melee range. Unless there is a cluster abd nobody is being you attention because your damage is low, most of the time you play in melee range is magsorc as most classes do. Also, integrating blood magic passive in the comparison while ignoring combustion, warmth, and world in ruin seems unfair to me.

I've fought extremely good magsorcs, magcros, rangeplars, and magblades who kite me continually while fighting unleashing skill after skill while I have to run to them over and over and they get a huge mitigation of damage just from this.
If you are great at kiting while fighting, you can make range a lot more powerful than you are implying and undermining it; it's all about perspective, counterplay and skill.

How many "etremely good" range users out their? It is like when you talk about the top elite trial player who get 100k+ dps while most players get qay less.

Skoomah

VarisVaris wrote: »

Power Lash having no cooldown is really problematic in PvP.
If your target is off balanced you can unleash a 7 seconds lasting whip cascade which not only heals you every second but is also very, very cheap.

Power Lash should get a 2 seconds cooldown and the cost should only be reduced by 25% compared to flame lash.

This would still result in the ability being better than on the live servers but it would prevent it from being too strong in conjunction with off balance.

Please... just stop. [snip]

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

Skoomah

ZOS gave DKs another half baked spammable and you still want to get it nerfed???

Come on... really???

BattleAxe

VarisVaris wrote: »

Power Lash having no cooldown is really problematic in PvP.
If your target is off balanced you can unleash a 7 seconds lasting whip cascade which not only heals you every second but is also very, very cheap.

Power Lash should get a 2 seconds cooldown and the cost should only be reduced by 25% compared to flame lash.

This would still result in the ability being better than on the live servers but it would prevent it from being too strong in conjunction with off balance.

The 7 second pummeling is intended when you also consider their is a cool down on proccing off balance on an enemy. Please keep in mind it seems this is the morph they are pushing towards stam dk to use. Dks have gone without any real significant buffs or changes in a few yrs now. Lastly dks in general must be in melee range if your worried about lash being op if a dk is at range they can’t hit you with it.

gariondavey

Skoomah wrote: »

ZOS gave DKs another half baked spammable and you still want to get it nerfed???

Come on... really???

This thread is an absolute farce

VarisVaris

BattleAxe wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Power Lash having no cooldown is really problematic in PvP.
If your target is off balanced you can unleash a 7 seconds lasting whip cascade which not only heals you every second but is also very, very cheap.

Power Lash should get a 2 seconds cooldown and the cost should only be reduced by 25% compared to flame lash.

This would still result in the ability being better than on the live servers but it would prevent it from being too strong in conjunction with off balance.

The 7 second pummeling is intended when you also consider their is a cool down on proccing off balance on an enemy. Please keep in mind it seems this is the morph they are pushing towards stam dk to use. Dks have gone without any real significant buffs or changes in a few yrs now. Lastly dks in general must be in melee range if your worried about lash being op if a dk is at range they can’t hit you with it.

Power Lash on Stamdk requires you to run Dizzy otherwise you won't get any OB procs against any player with two thumbs, which then means you either drop Fragmented or something else.

You get far more out if it on magdk as fossilize and talons allow for powerlash hits far more often as you aren't limited to stunned targets only due to having access to roots.

Class Balances have been pushed back since Dragonhold and they've only started again with Templars last patch, but that's not an argument to buff an ability into the overperforming regions.

As I said in another post above advising to simply stop fighting for X seconds is often an indicator that something is busted.

VarisVaris

Skoomah wrote: »

ZOS gave DKs another half baked spammable and you still want to get it nerfed???

Come on... really???

And your arguments are?
The ability to spam 7 power lashes back to back with a cost of 7k mag (which often is for less because you'll get at least 1-2 combustion procs from them) is too much.

I can see why people want it but they're not interested in balance in the slightest.

VarisVaris

gariondavey wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

ZOS gave DKs another half baked spammable and you still want to get it nerfed???

Come on... really???

This thread is an absolute farce

Yes there's too many people in here who haven't been on Pts or intentionally tell lies about the performance of their main class.

Volktair

Have you really tried on pts fight a magdk ? Have you really tried on pts fight as mgdk ?

And it's still pts.

So chill down and stop complaning and annoying everyone. We will see how it goes when ppl actually triyng it will give their feedbacks.

Skoomah

VarisVaris wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

ZOS gave DKs another half baked spammable and you still want to get it nerfed???

Come on... really???

And your arguments are?
The ability to spam 7 power lashes back to back with a cost of 7k mag (which often is for less because you'll get at least 1-2 combustion procs from them) is too much.

I can see why people want it but they're not interested in balance in the slightest.

What part of stamina DK putting all their points into stamina to max their stamina based skills damage don’t you get? How do you spam something if you don’t have the resource pool to keep it up????

ZOS still doesn’t freaking get it... one bad idea after another...

Do you play DK?

- first we battle mag DKs for years for a class based spammable
- then we watch ZOS erode the competitiveness and now even viability of dot based builds over the years... just try going up against any team with a half decent healer and see how well dots do against their layer upon layers of HOTs that negate your dots
- and now we have players that don’t even play the class cause us more grief
- poop rock was such a dumb skill, and now we get half baked whip

Now the only way to make a competitive DK is to zip around at 250 mph and heavy attacking instead of playing the class like an immovable rock that punishes you for engaging with us for too long as we retaliate with overwhelming force.

It’s like you made this badass knight into this ranger. It’s completely different archetype.

Come on ZOS?????????

VarisVaris

Skoomah wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

ZOS gave DKs another half baked spammable and you still want to get it nerfed???

Come on... really???

And your arguments are?
The ability to spam 7 power lashes back to back with a cost of 7k mag (which often is for less because you'll get at least 1-2 combustion procs from them) is too much.

I can see why people want it but they're not interested in balance in the slightest.

What part of stamina DK putting all their points into stamina to max their stamina based skills damage don’t you get? How do you spam something if you don’t have the resource pool to keep it up????

ZOS still doesn’t freaking get it... one bad idea after another...

Do you play DK?

- first we battle mag DKs for years for a class based spammable
- then we watch ZOS erode the competitiveness and now even viability of dot based builds over the years... just try going up against any team with a half decent healer and see how well dots do against their layer upon layers of HOTs that negate your dots
- and now we have players that don’t even play the class cause us more grief
- poop rock was such a dumb skill, and now we get half baked whip

Now the only way to make a competitive DK is to zip around at 250 mph and heavy attacking instead of playing the class like an immovable rock that punishes you for engaging with us for too long as we retaliate with overwhelming force.

It’s like you made this badass knight into this ranger. It’s completely different archetype.

Come on ZOS?????????

Stamdk has nothing to do in this discussion, additionally power lash is sustainable in duels on pts with only fire glyph FB as mag sustain and dropping fragmented, which is due to the lack of options to apply OB without dizzy and bar space.

I indeed play DK it's the class I have probably played most of in pvp when combining playtimes across my stamdk and magdk.

Anything you've said afterwards also has nothing to do with the balance problems I have described tied to powerlash having no cooldown.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

gariondavey

Please just stop, varis. Nobody else holds your belief, this thread is indicative of that.

VarisVaris

gariondavey wrote: »

Please just stop, varis. Nobody else holds your belief, this thread is indicative of that.

That's not indicative at all, people defended Hrothgar's and Dark Convergence last pts, people defended Crimson, people defended rune cage, people defended sloads, people defend necro....

The amount of people who are honest on the forums is low and the amount of honest people who test stuff on pts is even lower, this is what this thread proves.

jaws343

VarisVaris wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

ZOS gave DKs another half baked spammable and you still want to get it nerfed???

Come on... really???

And your arguments are?
The ability to spam 7 power lashes back to back with a cost of 7k mag (which often is for less because you'll get at least 1-2 combustion procs from them) is too much.

I can see why people want it but they're not interested in balance in the slightest.

What part of stamina DK putting all their points into stamina to max their stamina based skills damage don’t you get? How do you spam something if you don’t have the resource pool to keep it up????

ZOS still doesn’t freaking get it... one bad idea after another...

Do you play DK?

- first we battle mag DKs for years for a class based spammable
- then we watch ZOS erode the competitiveness and now even viability of dot based builds over the years... just try going up against any team with a half decent healer and see how well dots do against their layer upon layers of HOTs that negate your dots
- and now we have players that don’t even play the class cause us more grief
- poop rock was such a dumb skill, and now we get half baked whip

Now the only way to make a competitive DK is to zip around at 250 mph and heavy attacking instead of playing the class like an immovable rock that punishes you for engaging with us for too long as we retaliate with overwhelming force.

It’s like you made this badass knight into this ranger. It’s completely different archetype.

Come on ZOS?????????

Stamdk has nothing to do in this discussion, additionally power lash is sustainable in duels on pts with only fire glyph FB as mag sustain and dropping fragmented, which is due to the lack of options to apply OB without dizzy and bar space.

I indeed play DK it's the class I have probably played most of in pvp when combining playtimes across my stamdk and magdk.

Anything you've said afterwards also has nothing to do with the balance problems I have described tied to powerlash having no cooldown.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

People keep trying to bring this as a stam issue. But the problem is, when the skill is hitting comparable numbers to a stamina spammable on a stam setup and that skill is a mag skill, there is a problem. Once you take in spell pen on a mag build, the skill is going to be crazy strong.

VarisVaris

jaws343 wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

ZOS gave DKs another half baked spammable and you still want to get it nerfed???

Come on... really???

And your arguments are?
The ability to spam 7 power lashes back to back with a cost of 7k mag (which often is for less because you'll get at least 1-2 combustion procs from them) is too much.

I can see why people want it but they're not interested in balance in the slightest.

What part of stamina DK putting all their points into stamina to max their stamina based skills damage don’t you get? How do you spam something if you don’t have the resource pool to keep it up????

ZOS still doesn’t freaking get it... one bad idea after another...

Do you play DK?

- first we battle mag DKs for years for a class based spammable
- then we watch ZOS erode the competitiveness and now even viability of dot based builds over the years... just try going up against any team with a half decent healer and see how well dots do against their layer upon layers of HOTs that negate your dots
- and now we have players that don’t even play the class cause us more grief
- poop rock was such a dumb skill, and now we get half baked whip

Now the only way to make a competitive DK is to zip around at 250 mph and heavy attacking instead of playing the class like an immovable rock that punishes you for engaging with us for too long as we retaliate with overwhelming force.

It’s like you made this badass knight into this ranger. It’s completely different archetype.

Come on ZOS?????????

Stamdk has nothing to do in this discussion, additionally power lash is sustainable in duels on pts with only fire glyph FB as mag sustain and dropping fragmented, which is due to the lack of options to apply OB without dizzy and bar space.

I indeed play DK it's the class I have probably played most of in pvp when combining playtimes across my stamdk and magdk.

Anything you've said afterwards also has nothing to do with the balance problems I have described tied to powerlash having no cooldown.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

People keep trying to bring this as a stam issue. But the problem is, when the skill is hitting comparable numbers to a stamina spammable on a stam setup and that skill is a mag skill, there is a problem. Once you take in spell pen on a mag build, the skill is going to be crazy strong.

There is no issue with Molten Whip or Regular Flame Lash or even Power Whip if the target isn't set off balance.

Also penetration isn't something to care about as you'll want to pop corrosive on both stamdk and magdk before you start your whipping bombardment.

The advantages magdk when it comes to power lash is:
+10% damage done with engulfing
more frequent Power Lash procs between OB due to roots from talons and fossilize (although shattering is still the better choice for OW)

I can't Stress it enough the only issue is the lack of a cooldown on power lash in conjunction with OB

Jodynn

universal_wrath wrote: »

Jodynn wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I was going to agree with OP and it being problematic because I thought of what it'd be like to be hit by 7 instant crystal frags in a row and it doesn't seem as bad as I thought..

Using ESO Skillbook:

Crystal Frag

• 2483 damage
• 2700 cost
• 35% chance on magicka skills to get instant frags that does 66% more damage (4122) for half cost (1350).
• Blood Magic passive: 10% heal. 25k-30k hp = 2.5k-3k heal (before BS)

Flame Lash

• 2323 damage
• 2295 cost
• Offbalance/Immbolized target grants Power Lash for roughly 19% more damage (2760) and half cost (1148).
• Heal return: 4839 reduced by 43%, but instant 2081 (before BS)

Now the heal will obviously scale with your damage stats, so I imagine it's probably quadruple that amount, while crystal frags would be at it's best there. Insta Frags is RNG based and the heal is lesser, but it's ranged and does way more damage.

Flame Lash is melee so the lower base cost is 1:1 with frags when considering it's intentional (-15% cost), the damage bonus isn't very much which matches the idea that you'd cast it more than once in a row and the heal is much stronger, but you also need to be in melee so higher healing makes sense.

Offbalance/immbolize is easier to time for, but has a higher cooldown than the uptime you can get from RNG Insta Frags.

TLDR: They seem in the same ball park power level and have bonuses that match the classes archetype. Sorc being the ranged/elusive/glass cannon and DK being the stand your ground/brute strength/sustained pressure class.

So.. nahhh. Seems fine

In BGs, being a range charcter us only good when you attack from your base, it takes 2-3 secs max for melee classes to reach you and be in their melee range. Unless there is a cluster abd nobody is being you attention because your damage is low, most of the time you play in melee range is magsorc as most classes do. Also, integrating blood magic passive in the comparison while ignoring combustion, warmth, and world in ruin seems unfair to me.

I've fought extremely good magsorcs, magcros, rangeplars, and magblades who kite me continually while fighting unleashing skill after skill while I have to run to them over and over and they get a huge mitigation of damage just from this.
If you are great at kiting while fighting, you can make range a lot more powerful than you are implying and undermining it; it's all about perspective, counterplay and skill.

How many "etremely good" range users out their? It is like when you talk about the top elite trial player who get 100k+ dps while most players get qay less.

Does it matter how many?
You can't compare skill when making gameplay choices, you have to balance it around an equilibrium and the changes are exactly just that.

BattleAxe

VarisVaris wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

ZOS gave DKs another half baked spammable and you still want to get it nerfed???

Come on... really???

This thread is an absolute farce

Yes there's too many people in here who haven't been on Pts or intentionally tell lies about the performance of their main class.

Is this telling lies on performance of a players main class exclusive to dk because every other class that received questionable buffs in the past never had a claim like you are making by stating what you did above.

VarisVaris wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Power Lash having no cooldown is really problematic in PvP.
If your target is off balanced you can unleash a 7 seconds lasting whip cascade which not only heals you every second but is also very, very cheap.

Power Lash should get a 2 seconds cooldown and the cost should only be reduced by 25% compared to flame lash.

This would still result in the ability being better than on the live servers but it would prevent it from being too strong in conjunction with off balance.

The 7 second pummeling is intended when you also consider their is a cool down on proccing off balance on an enemy. Please keep in mind it seems this is the morph they are pushing towards stam dk to use. Dks have gone without any real significant buffs or changes in a few yrs now. Lastly dks in general must be in melee range if your worried about lash being op if a dk is at range they can’t hit you with it.

Power Lash on Stamdk requires you to run Dizzy otherwise you won't get any OB procs against any player with two thumbs, which then means you either drop Fragmented or something else.

You get far more out if it on magdk as fossilize and talons allow for powerlash hits far more often as you aren't limited to stunned targets only due to having access to roots.

Class Balances have been pushed back since Dragonhold and they've only started again with Templars last patch, but that's not an argument to buff an ability into the overperforming regions.

As I said in another post above advising to simply stop fighting for X seconds is often an indicator that something is busted.

Where did I state to stop fighting? What I said was a dk must be in melee range to do the 7 second pummeling so effectively if you keep a dk at range they can’t pummel you down. Also those 7 seconds on power lash fit in the dk theme of being a high pressure build.