Power Lash is too powerful

VarisVaris

Power Lash having no cooldown is really problematic in PvP.
If your target is off balanced you can unleash a 7 seconds lasting whip cascade which not only heals you every second but is also very, very cheap.

Power Lash should get a 2 seconds cooldown and the cost should only be reduced by 25% compared to flame lash.

This would still result in the ability being better than on the live servers but it would prevent it from being too strong in conjunction with off balance.

Vevvev

Hmmm, never thought of the cheaper cost side of it. In a duel I can totally see it being amazing but in group fights I hope my allies don't consume the off balance on my target... Which they usually do. And the healing thing was changed for the better. Nerfed in total healing per hit but instant instead of over 2 seconds. Makes it more snappy.

gariondavey

Seriously lol can we not ruin the love dk is getting

MashmalloMan

I was going to agree with OP and it being problematic because I thought of what it'd be like to be hit by 7 instant crystal frags in a row and it doesn't seem as bad as I thought..

Using ESO Skillbook:

Crystal Frag

• 2483 damage
• 2700 cost
• 35% chance on magicka skills to get instant frags that does 66% more damage (4122) for half cost (1350).
• Blood Magic passive: 10% heal. 25k-30k hp = 2.5k-3k heal (before BS)

Flame Lash

• 2323 damage
• 2295 cost
• Offbalance/Immbolized target grants Power Lash for roughly 19% more damage (2760) and half cost (1148).
• Heal return: 4839 reduced by 43%, but instant 2081 (before BS)

Now the heal will obviously scale with your damage stats, so I imagine it's probably quadruple that amount, while crystal frags would be at it's best there. Insta Frags is RNG based and the heal is lesser, but it's ranged and does way more damage.

Flame Lash is melee so the lower base cost is 1:1 with frags when considering it's intentional (-15% cost), the damage bonus isn't very much which matches the idea that you'd cast it more than once in a row and the heal is much stronger, but you also need to be in melee so higher healing makes sense.

Offbalance/immbolize is easier to time for, but has a higher cooldown than the uptime you can get from RNG Insta Frags.

TLDR: They seem in the same ball park power level and have bonuses that match the classes archetype. Sorc being the ranged/elusive/glass cannon and DK being the stand your ground/brute strength/sustained pressure class.

So.. nahhh. Seems fine

Dovahmiim

It is overtuned, OP's suggestion is probably the best middle ground. For the DK mains who disagree, do you really want to be on the ez mode cheese 1v1 class? I main magplar, when purifying was overbuffed last PTS cycle, I tried to warn of the same thing. Now a well built duels plar literally cannot lose. DKs you should be asking for skills that will enhance class survival in 1vX and general open world fights, like buffs to inhale or wings.

Trixterion

Dovahmiim wrote: »

It is overtuned, OP's suggestion is probably the best middle ground. For the DK mains who disagree, do you really want to be on the ez mode cheese 1v1 class? I main magplar, when purifying was overbuffed last PTS cycle, I tried to warn of the same thing. Now a well built duels plar literally cannot lose. DKs you should be asking for skills that will enhance class survival in 1vX and general open world fights, like buffs to inhale or wings.

I am not DK main and I am really bad with MagDK, but in order to sustain with the same food/glyphs and even sets, I have to run exactly that particular morph of whip, ElfBane and cost reduction glyphs and sustain still will be bad. In pvp scenario all our skills can be easily cleansed therefore the only reliable source of damage as MagDK will be whip combos. If next patch I will be able to take off ElfBane and glyphs and replace them with something that boosts my damage like I can do literally with any class but not MagDK, that's the buff for sustain and some damage all DK mains were asking for a really long time.
Dude just do some parses and if you will brake 130k DPS then scream about DK being OP or overturned, we need real proof that in spherical vacuum DK will output more than average DPS

Jamdarius

Sigh... so sad to see ppl already complain about 1v1 mag DK PvP when it is still PTS, and this game is not rly about 1vs1 PVP but 1vsX most of the time... Mag DK needs this skill, get over it. If you feel it's 2 OP take out sorcs streak, execution from 2h, bow range, crystal frags, unstable core, radiant glory/oppression, invisibility from the game bleh bleh bleh the list is long because every class has it's own thing in DK case it is 1vs1 damage and ability to heal and tank the shots aimed at him.

Dovahmiim

Trixterion wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

It is overtuned, OP's suggestion is probably the best middle ground. For the DK mains who disagree, do you really want to be on the ez mode cheese 1v1 class? I main magplar, when purifying was overbuffed last PTS cycle, I tried to warn of the same thing. Now a well built duels plar literally cannot lose. DKs you should be asking for skills that will enhance class survival in 1vX and general open world fights, like buffs to inhale or wings.

I am not DK main and I am really bad with MagDK, but in order to sustain with the same food/glyphs and even sets, I have to run exactly that particular morph of whip, ElfBane and cost reduction glyphs and sustain still will be bad. In pvp scenario all our skills can be easily cleansed therefore the only reliable source of damage as MagDK will be whip combos. If next patch I will be able to take off ElfBane and glyphs and replace them with something that boosts my damage like I can do literally with any class but not MagDK, that's the buff for sustain and some damage all DK mains were asking for a really long time.
Dude just do some parses and if you will brake 130k DPS then scream about DK being OP or overturned, we need real proof that in spherical vacuum DK will output more than average DPS

I'm talking strictly PvP, no idea about the PvE side.
The whole "it can be cleansed so easily" is only valid against one class (Templar) in PvP, and even that argument is no longer valid, as templar purify costs heaps, so you can force them to mag dump by reapplying embers. In 1v1 and 1vX DK is already nightmare tier to fight against, my point is that ZOS need to be careful not to overbuff DK in that department, while leaving them lacking in 1vX and smallscale play.

YandereGirlfriend

Dovahmiim wrote: »

It is overtuned, OP's suggestion is probably the best middle ground. For the DK mains who disagree, do you really want to be on the ez mode cheese 1v1 class? I main magplar, when purifying was overbuffed last PTS cycle, I tried to warn of the same thing. Now a well built duels plar literally cannot lose. DKs you should be asking for skills that will enhance class survival in 1vX and general open world fights, like buffs to inhale or wings.

The game should never be balanced around the incredibly (INCREDIBLY!) niche scenario of dueling. There are probably <100 players on the entirety of PC:NA who actually care about dueling and the game should 1000% not be balanced to suit their particular whims.

Most serious tournaments already ban particular classes, skills, and gear anyway so, if in this hypothetical duelist fever dream Power Lash was simply too powerful, you have a ready-made solution sitting in front of you.

Luke_Flamesword

Yeah, whole Cyrodiil is infested with sorcs with pets (we have even sorcs ballgroup) but let's nerf dk when they finally get some little buff after years of being just pathetic. And it's even nothing op compared to sorcs tools...

Griefclaw

Jamdarius wrote: »

Sigh... so sad to see ppl already complain about 1v1 mag DK PvP when it is still PTS, and this game is not rly about 1vs1 PVP but 1vsX most of the time... Mag DK needs this skill, get over it. If you feel it's 2 OP take out sorcs streak, execution from 2h, bow range, crystal frags, unstable core, radiant glory/oppression, invisibility from the game bleh bleh bleh the list is long because every class has it's own thing in DK case it is 1vs1 damage and ability to heal and tank the shots aimed at him.

I agree man, lot's of classes have a lot of very iconic and powerful abilities that you could say in different scenarios are "overtuned", its not always a reason to nerf them though. With DK's however, there's a reason ZOS is giving them some love, and if you have ever played a DK for long enough, you understand.

There is already a lot of counter to the playstyle of a Mag DK but the main thing it should excel at in PvP is prolonged 1v1s / 1vX's in a small radius around the player as a result of the lack of ranged abilities and executions in the class, which definitely isn't always the case when looking at players of equal skill level on different classes vs Mag DK currently.

jan.denaanb16_ESO

Oh [snip]... Stap it already!! 1 day of pts. 1 day of buffs for DK since years and we already have complainers. This is by no means op

[edited for profanity bypass]

VarisVaris

I highly doubt that anyone who doesn't thinks lash is op has been on PTS or is free of bias.

Those Flame Lash changes are too much, there's no sugar coating this.

With OB being applied to the target you have 7 seconds of hammering them with a 14k+ spammable and thanks to the attached heal you don't have to worry at all about it.
If you pop a corrosive on top of it things become memeworthy.

The only result this change going through will have is DK nerfs afterwards because this is just ridiculously overperforming.

VarisVaris

Vevvev wrote: »

Hmmm, never thought of the cheaper cost side of it. In a duel I can totally see it being amazing but in group fights I hope my allies don't consume the off balance on my target... Which they usually do. And the healing thing was changed for the better. Nerfed in total healing per hit but instant instead of over 2 seconds. Makes it more snappy.

You can't consume off balance anymore.

Trixterion

VarisVaris wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Hmmm, never thought of the cheaper cost side of it. In a duel I can totally see it being amazing but in group fights I hope my allies don't consume the off balance on my target... Which they usually do. And the healing thing was changed for the better. Nerfed in total healing per hit but instant instead of over 2 seconds. Makes it more snappy.

You can't consume off balance anymore.

Heavy attack should consume it, isn't it?

VarisVaris

Trixterion wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Hmmm, never thought of the cheaper cost side of it. In a duel I can totally see it being amazing but in group fights I hope my allies don't consume the off balance on my target... Which they usually do. And the healing thing was changed for the better. Nerfed in total healing per hit but instant instead of over 2 seconds. Makes it more snappy.

You can't consume off balance anymore.

Heavy attack should consume it, isn't it?

No this has been removed when it was changed in Harrowstorm.

"Off Balance is no longer consumed on targets from Heavy Attacks or abilities."

divnyi

What if it were powerlashed attacking stunned or immobilized enemies, instead of Off-Balanced? That way you punish opponents for not breaking CC too fast, but counterplay is here.

oscarovegren

VarisVaris wrote: »

Power Lash having no cooldown is really problematic in PvP.
If your target is off balanced you can unleash a 7 seconds lasting whip cascade which not only heals you every second but is also very, very cheap.

Power Lash should get a 2 seconds cooldown and the cost should only be reduced by 25% compared to flame lash.

This would still result in the ability being better than on the live servers but it would prevent it from being too strong in conjunction with off balance.

It´s not a problem if U adjust your playstyle while facing a magDK. Don´t fight a magdk melee while being off-balanced (fight him melee within the off-balance cooldown), stay ranged and harass the magdk with it´s abysmal mobility or pop an immovable when engaging a magdk. There are a lot of counterplay against this but brawling a magdk should ALWAYS be a challenge.

You can´t base an ability on duels only. And even there there are plenty of time when you can´t use power lash due to off-balance cooldown. Adjust your playstyle and you will be fine!

VarisVaris

oscarovegren wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Power Lash having no cooldown is really problematic in PvP.
If your target is off balanced you can unleash a 7 seconds lasting whip cascade which not only heals you every second but is also very, very cheap.

Power Lash should get a 2 seconds cooldown and the cost should only be reduced by 25% compared to flame lash.

This would still result in the ability being better than on the live servers but it would prevent it from being too strong in conjunction with off balance.

It´s not a problem if U adjust your playstyle while facing a magDK. Don´t fight a magdk melee while being off-balanced (fight him melee within the off-balance cooldown), stay ranged and harass the magdk with it´s abysmal mobility or pop an immovable when engaging a magdk. There are a lot of counterplay against this but brawling a magdk should ALWAYS be a challenge.

You can´t base an ability on duels only. And even there there are plenty of time when you can´t use power lash due to off-balance cooldown. Adjust your playstyle and you will be fine!

Not fighting for X seconds has always been a bad argument and has always pointed towards certain things being overturned.

Also abysmal mobility is another bad argument when RaT exists.

I doubt that you have tested it on pts or if you have that you are 100% honest

VarisVaris

divnyi wrote: »

What if it were powerlashed attacking stunned or immobilized enemies, instead of Off-Balanced? That way you punish opponents for not breaking CC too fast, but counterplay is here.

This would be way too unreliable especially vs good players, having it tied to OB allows it to be reliable even vs good players but the current iteration with no CD is too much.

jaws343

jan.denaanb16_ESO wrote: »

Oh [snip]... Stap it already!! 1 day of pts. 1 day of buffs for DK since years and we already have complainers. This is by no means op

Literally the point of PTS. To access the changes and provide feedback.

divnyi wrote: »

What if it were powerlashed attacking stunned or immobilized enemies, instead of Off-Balanced? That way you punish opponents for not breaking CC too fast, but counterplay is here.

This is probably the better option.

[edited to remove quote]

Luke_Flamesword

Now, when sorcs are op, especially in no-cp no-proc we can go two different roads to balance things in PvP. We can buff weaker classes or nerf the strongest one. Which way do you prefer?

I can assure you that all these pet sorcs won't abandon their class just to play with dks after next patch, because this still will be a weaker option. In that situation it will be ridiculous to nerf things, right? When whole Cyrodiil will be infested with whiping dk's, then we can talk.

jaws343

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Now, when sorcs are op, especially in no-cp no-proc we can go two different roads to balance things in PvP. We can buff weaker classes or nerf the strongest one. Which way do you prefer?

I can assure you that all these pet sorcs won't abandon their class just to play with dks after next patch, because this still will be a weaker option. In that situation it will be ridiculous to nerf things, right? When whole Cyrodiil will be infested with whiping dk's, then we can talk.

But nothing is a nerf/buff yet. These are all proposed changes.

It isn't a nerf until it is on live and then changed afterwards. While it is on PTS it is meant to be tweaked and adjusted to ensure that it isn't too strong or too weak. People pointing out the potential issues with the proposed changes is exactly what PTS is for. And these proposed changes, alongside the concerns raised, should be tested.

VarisVaris

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Now, when sorcs are op, especially in no-cp no-proc we can go two different roads to balance things in PvP. We can buff weaker classes or nerf the strongest one. Which way do you prefer?

I can assure you that all these pet sorcs won't abandon their class just to play with dks after next patch, because this still will be a weaker option. In that situation it will be ridiculous to nerf things, right? When whole Cyrodiil will be infested with whiping dk's, then we can talk.

I'm sorry but this is no argument.
Just because X is unbalanced doesn't mean Y is allowed to be overperforming as well.
And Flame Lash without a cooldown is just flat out overperforming and the game won't be any better when they add it, quite the opposite it will make the game worse and will result in DK nerfs in the future.

IronWooshu

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Yeah, whole Cyrodiil is infested with sorcs with pets (we have even sorcs ballgroup) but let's nerf dk when they finally get some little buff after years of being just pathetic. And it's even nothing op compared to sorcs tools...

DK's havent been pathetic in PVP in quite some time, they are very tanky and have the capability to burst you down real fast especially when timing Leap Slam right.

Vevvev

VarisVaris wrote: »

Trixterion wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Hmmm, never thought of the cheaper cost side of it. In a duel I can totally see it being amazing but in group fights I hope my allies don't consume the off balance on my target... Which they usually do. And the healing thing was changed for the better. Nerfed in total healing per hit but instant instead of over 2 seconds. Makes it more snappy.

You can't consume off balance anymore.

Heavy attack should consume it, isn't it?

No this has been removed when it was changed in Harrowstorm.

"Off Balance is no longer consumed on targets from Heavy Attacks or abilities."

Can't believe I missed that change. Was still dead convinced it could be lol. So many changes over such a small period of time. If you're not reading every line of the patch notes you find yourself quickly going off old information.

kojou

Well everyone was complaining that DK's didn't have a good burst window, so they gave DK's a burst window. What's the problem?

I think making the heal a lower value longer lasting HoT (~1K per second for 10 seconds) would have been the better call.

As for the 7 seconds of merciless lashing... If a player stands there for 7 seconds and lets you flame lash them then they probably deserve to die. 7 seconds of almost any spammable will probably delete a bad player.

If the power budget it too much (I'm not certain that it is) then I think they should tie the damage to an execute mechanic and have it start at a lower value (5% increase) and increase (maybe to 50%) as the player gets lower health.

VarisVaris

kojou wrote: »

Well everyone was complaining that DK's didn't have a good burst window, so they gave DK's a burst window. What's the problem?

I think making the heal a lower value longer lasting HoT (~1K per second for 10 seconds) would have been the better call.

As for the 7 seconds of merciless lashing... If a player stands there for 7 seconds and lets you flame lash them then they probably deserve to die. 7 seconds of almost any spammable will probably delete a bad player.

If the power budget it too much (I'm not certain that it is) then I think they should tie the damage to an execute mechanic and have it start at a lower value (5% increase) and increase (maybe to 50%) as the player gets lower health.

The problem is it is overperforming.

The is nothing wrong with anything about power lash except that being able to spam it for 1k mag (which means 0 when you apply burning) for 7 seconds while you heal with every single one of them.

There is no need to change anything about how the skill works except for the cooldown to be at least 2 seconds.

You are asking for a new car when all that needs to be done is putting on the previous tires again.

oscarovegren

VarisVaris wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Well everyone was complaining that DK's didn't have a good burst window, so they gave DK's a burst window. What's the problem?

I think making the heal a lower value longer lasting HoT (~1K per second for 10 seconds) would have been the better call.

As for the 7 seconds of merciless lashing... If a player stands there for 7 seconds and lets you flame lash them then they probably deserve to die. 7 seconds of almost any spammable will probably delete a bad player.

If the power budget it too much (I'm not certain that it is) then I think they should tie the damage to an execute mechanic and have it start at a lower value (5% increase) and increase (maybe to 50%) as the player gets lower health.

The problem is it is overperforming.

The is nothing wrong with anything about power lash except that being able to spam it for 1k mag (which means 0 when you apply burning) for 7 seconds while you heal with every single one of them.

There is no need to change anything about how the skill works except for the cooldown to be at least 2 seconds.

You are asking for a new car when all that needs to be done is putting on the previous tires again.

Keep the previous HoT value over 2 sec then and make the cooldown 2 sec. Everyone happy

VarisVaris

oscarovegren wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Well everyone was complaining that DK's didn't have a good burst window, so they gave DK's a burst window. What's the problem?

I think making the heal a lower value longer lasting HoT (~1K per second for 10 seconds) would have been the better call.

As for the 7 seconds of merciless lashing... If a player stands there for 7 seconds and lets you flame lash them then they probably deserve to die. 7 seconds of almost any spammable will probably delete a bad player.

If the power budget it too much (I'm not certain that it is) then I think they should tie the damage to an execute mechanic and have it start at a lower value (5% increase) and increase (maybe to 50%) as the player gets lower health.

The problem is it is overperforming.

The is nothing wrong with anything about power lash except that being able to spam it for 1k mag (which means 0 when you apply burning) for 7 seconds while you heal with every single one of them.

There is no need to change anything about how the skill works except for the cooldown to be at least 2 seconds.

You are asking for a new car when all that needs to be done is putting on the previous tires again.

Keep the previous HoT value over 2 sec then and make the cooldown 2 sec. Everyone happy

The Heal on PTS is more than fine even if you get it only every 2 seconds, I got consistent 5k+ non crits on a build without a dedicated offensive set.
I'm not opposed to having a hot but it would still require a nerf compared to the value on the live servers

oscarovegren

VarisVaris wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Well everyone was complaining that DK's didn't have a good burst window, so they gave DK's a burst window. What's the problem?

I think making the heal a lower value longer lasting HoT (~1K per second for 10 seconds) would have been the better call.

As for the 7 seconds of merciless lashing... If a player stands there for 7 seconds and lets you flame lash them then they probably deserve to die. 7 seconds of almost any spammable will probably delete a bad player.

If the power budget it too much (I'm not certain that it is) then I think they should tie the damage to an execute mechanic and have it start at a lower value (5% increase) and increase (maybe to 50%) as the player gets lower health.

The problem is it is overperforming.

The is nothing wrong with anything about power lash except that being able to spam it for 1k mag (which means 0 when you apply burning) for 7 seconds while you heal with every single one of them.

There is no need to change anything about how the skill works except for the cooldown to be at least 2 seconds.

You are asking for a new car when all that needs to be done is putting on the previous tires again.

Keep the previous HoT value over 2 sec then and make the cooldown 2 sec. Everyone happy

The Heal on PTS is more than fine even if you get it only every 2 seconds, I got consistent 5k+ non crits on a build without a dedicated offensive set.
I'm not opposed to having a hot but it would still require a nerf compared to the value on the live servers

I rather have the live flame lash in that case tbh. 3 sec CD with the current HoT value