Power Lash is too powerful

kojou

VarisVaris wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

Well everyone was complaining that DK's didn't have a good burst window, so they gave DK's a burst window. What's the problem?

I think making the heal a lower value longer lasting HoT (~1K per second for 10 seconds) would have been the better call.

As for the 7 seconds of merciless lashing... If a player stands there for 7 seconds and lets you flame lash them then they probably deserve to die. 7 seconds of almost any spammable will probably delete a bad player.

If the power budget it too much (I'm not certain that it is) then I think they should tie the damage to an execute mechanic and have it start at a lower value (5% increase) and increase (maybe to 50%) as the player gets lower health.

The problem is it is overperforming.

The is nothing wrong with anything about power lash except that being able to spam it for 1k mag (which means 0 when you apply burning) for 7 seconds while you heal with every single one of them.

There is no need to change anything about how the skill works except for the cooldown to be at least 2 seconds.

You are asking for a new car when all that needs to be done is putting on the previous tires again.

I think the intention here is to make that morph more stamina friendly, because otherwise a stamina DK build would have trouble sustaining whip as a spammable. Getting 7 seconds of half cost whip takes some of the pressure off of their magicka pool.

I think whatever solution that they come up with needs to have enough of a cost reduction. Maybe they could put a 2 second cool-down, but make it free, so every other whip while your enemy is off-balance is free and effectively get the same cost reduction?

I would prefer a solution that does not add a cool-down because I like the aesthetic of the back to back flip whip. It makes me feel like my character is doing something really epic.

gamerguy757

Spam wrecking blow/surprise attack/cliff diver/crystal frags for 5-10k a hit - THIS IS FINE

Spam a 5-10k whip - OP

Y’all are hilarious

VarisVaris

gamerguy757 wrote: »

Spam wrecking blow/surprise attack/cliff diver/crystal frags for 5-10k a hit - THIS IS FINE

Spam a 5-10k whip - OP

Y’all are hilarious

For half the cost and while healing and while having a higher tooltip...

It is overtuned and not comparable to the skills you've listed.

jaws343

gamerguy757 wrote: »

Spam wrecking blow/surprise attack/cliff diver/crystal frags for 5-10k a hit - THIS IS FINE

Spam a 5-10k whip - OP

Y’all are hilarious

but it is not the base effect of the powerlash that people have an issue with, it is the increased damage portion of power lash. The base version against non off balance targets would be comparable to the hard cast frags or wrecking blow or surprise attack.

The increase damage against off balance with no cooldown and a heal for every attack is not comparable to a base spammable. And at least he additional damage portion of cutting dive has a DOT only. No heal to the caster. And a frags proc isn't constant, it is random.

I'm sure you all would love a 7 second window of straight frag procs. It would be pretty crazy. 7 seconds of increased damage power lash is a long time.

Jodynn

MagDK finally has something competitive in PvE even though you MUST rely on others uptime for optimal output and you want to ruin it because you are worried about getting lashed in PvP?

You can dodge roll or save your stun when you are off balanced, it's a single target skill and off balance has a 20 (maybe 22 I can't remember) cooldown so counter play then burst once you're free of off balance.

Sorcs can streak away
Blades can cloak away
There are a lot of things you can do to avoid it.
SnB ult
Resto ult
Vamp ult
So many options

If you stand there and take it well that's your own damn fault.

p.s.
Yes I also PvP; quite well, and I'll happily duel a magdk

Nser

it is fine

VarisVaris

Jodynn wrote: »

MagDK finally has something competitive in PvE even though you MUST rely on others uptime for optimal output and you want to ruin it because you are worried about getting lashed in PvP?

You can dodge roll or save your stun when you are off balanced, it's a single target skill and off balance has a 20 (maybe 22 I can't remember) cooldown so counter play then burst once you're free of off balance.

Sorcs can streak away
Blades can cloak away
There are a lot of things you can do to avoid it.
SnB ult
Resto ult
Vamp ult
So many options

If you stand there and take it well that's your own damn fault.

p.s.
Yes I also PvP; quite well, and I'll happily duel a magdk

So you've listed 5 things, 3 of which are ults, the others are limited to Sorc and NB.

Vevvev

VarisVaris wrote: »

Jodynn wrote: »

MagDK finally has something competitive in PvE even though you MUST rely on others uptime for optimal output and you want to ruin it because you are worried about getting lashed in PvP?

You can dodge roll or save your stun when you are off balanced, it's a single target skill and off balance has a 20 (maybe 22 I can't remember) cooldown so counter play then burst once you're free of off balance.

Sorcs can streak away
Blades can cloak away
There are a lot of things you can do to avoid it.
SnB ult
Resto ult
Vamp ult
So many options

If you stand there and take it well that's your own damn fault.

p.s.
Yes I also PvP; quite well, and I'll happily duel a magdk

So you've listed 5 things, 3 of which are ults, the others are limited to Sorc and NB.

Adds more to the list.

* Immovability potion
* Snow treaders (break free quick enough and you'll avoid the hit that procs off balance on you while stunned from Fossilize)
* Any purge

Volktair

Funny to see ppl already crying after years dk been far from top tier both pve and pvp.

This time, could you just let us have some fun for few weeks ?

Then you can streak, jabs and cloaks as much as you want [snip] !

[edited for baiting]

VarisVaris

Volktair wrote: »

Funny to see ppl already crying after years dk been far from top tier both pve and pvp.

This time, could you just let us have some fun for few weeks ?

Then you can streak, jabs and cloaks as much as you want [snip] !

It's not particularly fun when the main reason you win is using an overtuned ability.

Also it will be even less fun if Zos decides to nerf DK elsewhere when they realize they've went too far.

[edited to remove quote]

gariondavey

It isn't overperforming. Everyone I've spoken to who has tried it on the pts says it feel decent but in no way too strong.

ArcVelarian

It's fine. There are worse offenders in the Game and even they don't need as drastic a nerf as you're suggesting.

On a side not, whenever DKs get anything nice the whining you see from some people is absolutely unreal... This is why we don't get nice things.

ArcVelarian

IronWooshu wrote: »

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Yeah, whole Cyrodiil is infested with sorcs with pets (we have even sorcs ballgroup) but let's nerf dk when they finally get some little buff after years of being just pathetic. And it's even nothing op compared to sorcs tools...

DK's havent been pathetic in PVP in quite some time, they are very tanky and have the capability to burst you down real fast especially when timing Leap Slam right.

Only because the Class is getting hard carried by Sets in Battlegrounds. Class abilities are not the problem there...

Aldoss

PvP related:

I decided to test out the new power lash on my stamdk. I used it for funsies for a bit but this change might make me slot it and stop using Dswing as my only spammable.

Here's a cmx on my PvP build from live (Way of Air bb, Hroth fb, Bloodspawn, Malacath):




Here's a cmx with the exact same build but using Power Lash as often as possible:




When I can't find someone to duel to test numbers I battle Short-Tusk cuz he stuns and knocksback so frequently.

DSwing Dmg
Live = 29 hits 11,795dmg avg
PTS = 18 hits 11,925dmg avg

Power Lash Dmg
Live = 13 hits 8,003dmg avg
PTS = 37 hits 11,183dmg avg

Power Lash Heal
Live = 39 ticks 1,622 avg
PTS = 37 ticks 1,508 avg

I dunno, this seems like it was a well thought out play by ZOS. It seems pretty in line with DSwing which is a skill people have used as a spammable for years because despite its cast time, it does great dmg (when you can land it, most good players will dodge it) and has extremely useful beneficial secondary effects.

Power Lash is active only during Off Balance. When I mess up the timing and miss Power Lash, it'd very noticeable on my mag sustain. The heal acts more like a burst, but honestly only when it crits. The avg heal is similar to what it was before.

Again, this is a stamdk. Maybe magdk is able to use this way more and I'm not grabbing that data since I've never played a magdk. As far as stamdk goes, this seems very well balanced.

VarisVaris

Aldoss wrote: »

PvP related:

I decided to test out the new power lash on my stamdk. I used it for funsies for a bit but this change might make me slot it and stop using Dswing as my only spammable.

Here's a cmx on my PvP build from live (Way of Air bb, Hroth fb, Bloodspawn, Malacath):




Here's a cmx with the exact same build but using Power Lash as often as possible:




When I can't find someone to duel to test numbers I battle Short-Tusk cuz he stuns and knocksback so frequently.

DSwing Dmg
Live = 29 hits 11,795dmg avg
PTS = 18 hits 11,925dmg avg

Power Lash Dmg
Live = 13 hits 8,003dmg avg
PTS = 37 hits 11,183dmg avg

Power Lash Heal
Live = 39 ticks 1,622 avg
PTS = 37 ticks 1,508 avg

I dunno, this seems like it was a well thought out play by ZOS. It seems pretty in line with DSwing which is a skill people have used as a spammable for years because despite its cast time, it does great dmg (when you can land it, most good players will dodge it) and has extremely useful beneficial secondary effects.

Power Lash is active only during Off Balance. When I mess up the timing and miss Power Lash, it'd very noticeable on my mag sustain. The heal acts more like a burst, but honestly only when it crits. The avg heal is similar to what it was before.

Again, this is a stamdk. Maybe magdk is able to use this way more and I'm not grabbing that data since I've never played a magdk. As far as stamdk goes, this seems very well balanced.

I'm sorry but fighting a world boss is in no way comparable to PvP, on top of Way of Air and Hrothgar being trash sets.

CMX doesn't capture overhealing that's why your average heals are screwed and way too low.

Nirntrotter

Since balancing differently for different contexts is clearly not something that happens in this game, duels should never influence balancing imho. Yes, I'm completely biased, but sorely needed buffs should never get killed because of some extremely niche scenario.

VarisVaris

Nirntrotter wrote: »

Since balancing differently for different contexts is clearly not something that happens in this game, duels should never influence balancing imho. Yes, I'm completely biased, but sorely needed buffs should never get killed because of some extremely niche scenario.

It's not just gonna affect duels but also every other type of PvP except for ball groups.

Power Lash on PTS with OB on the target means:
Being able to spam a single skill for 7 gcds with a total cost of 7k mag while having proper heals attached to it and having higher TT than other spammables.

The skill simply isn't balanced but it would be fine if it had a 2 seconds cooldown on power lash.

Bashev

jaws343 wrote: »

gamerguy757 wrote: »

Spam wrecking blow/surprise attack/cliff diver/crystal frags for 5-10k a hit - THIS IS FINE

Spam a 5-10k whip - OP

Y’all are hilarious

but it is not the base effect of the powerlash that people have an issue with, it is the increased damage portion of power lash. The base version against non off balance targets would be comparable to the hard cast frags or wrecking blow or surprise attack.

The increase damage against off balance with no cooldown and a heal for every attack is not comparable to a base spammable. And at least he additional damage portion of cutting dive has a DOT only. No heal to the caster. And a frags proc isn't constant, it is random.

I'm sure you all would love a 7 second window of straight frag procs. It would be pretty crazy. 7 seconds of increased damage power lash is a long time.

Yeah whip is nice for 7 seconds and then 15 seconds CD and all ppl cry that it is not on line with the other skills, but when we say Inhale as a delayed burst is not in line with the other skills, same people say nah it is fine, just different mechanic.

divnyi

VarisVaris wrote: »

and having higher TT than other spammables.

Hm, but lets compare to sweeps.

Targeting an Off Balance or immobilized enemy changes this ability into Power Lash, allowing you to lash an enemy at half cost to deal 2760 Flame Damage

vs

Launch a relentless assault, striking enemies in front of you four times with your Aedric spear. The spear deals 872 Magic Damage to the closest enemy

When you deal damage with an Aedric Spear ability 4 times in rapid succession, you deal 1348 Physical Damage or 1348 Magic Damage to your target, whichever is higher.

872*4+1348 = 4836

Yeah it's probably better than sweeps for duels tho, because you can block, but damage just doesn't come even relatively close, no?

Trixterion

divnyi wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

and having higher TT than other spammables.

Hm, but lets compare to sweeps.

Targeting an Off Balance or immobilized enemy changes this ability into Power Lash, allowing you to lash an enemy at half cost to deal 2760 Flame Damage

vs

Launch a relentless assault, striking enemies in front of you four times with your Aedric spear. The spear deals 872 Magic Damage to the closest enemy

When you deal damage with an Aedric Spear ability 4 times in rapid succession, you deal 1348 Physical Damage or 1348 Magic Damage to your target, whichever is higher.

872*4+1348 = 4836

Yeah it's probably better than sweeps for duels tho, because you can block, but damage just doesn't come even relatively close, no?

And of course sweep heal as well, for as long as you're doing damage) I've tested on trial dummy with my mag dk and, from pve perspective, have gotten the same dps as all other classes, even a little bit below average(however that is probably because I prioritize reapplying skills over spinning), magplar gets better HPS and has really big aoe spammable, while as far as dk can go is 7m and 1 target with animation long enough to roll out.

oscarovegren

How about keeping the skill as it is on live (still let it scale from both weapon and spell damage) and give it a 3 sec cooldown for each target instead of 3 sec global cooldown? That wouldn´t make DK more oppressive 1v1 but improve their 1vX potential if they swap targets to keep procing the power lash? I know NES ESO talked about this in Harrowstorm

Jhalan

magplar spammable heals more and damages more even after this ''buff'' to power lash and it always hits more and always heals since it doenst need OB. DK's literally had to cope with having trash spammables (no spammable on stam), downright disgusting passives, no delayed burst, no proper debuff, no purge, trash sustain all these years, and then we finally get some little buffs and people start to complain.

Benawaw89

[snip] ppl like to complain

[edited for baiting]

VarisVaris

Jhalan wrote: »

magplar spammable heals more and damages more even after this ''buff'' to power lash and it always hits more and always heals since it doenst need OB. DK's literally had to cope with having trash spammables (no spammable on stam), downright disgusting passives, no delayed burst, no proper debuff, no purge, trash sustain all these years, and then we finally get some little buffs and people start to complain.

Power Lash didn't receive a "little buff" it was overbuffed and DKs without bias can acknowledge that.

Pterion87

I see the same 2 or 3 accounts / people complaining in each post about "the new DK is broken". Do you think that a skill will end the toxic and disgusting reign of the warden, magsorc, stamcro, opplar (which probably more than one of you play, and a lot)? I think complaining is up to a point, but I don't see them crying for changing every broken skill from p2w classes. I think you shouldn't worry, the reign of literally unkillables wardens, cros or templars is not threatened, they will continue to have fun, with a little more competition.

VarisVaris

Pterion87 wrote: »

I see the same 2 or 3 accounts / people complaining in each post about "the new DK is broken". Do you think that a skill will end the toxic and disgusting reign of the warden, magsorc, stamcro, opplar (which probably more than one of you play, and a lot)? I think complaining is up to a point, but I don't see them crying for changing every broken skill from p2w classes. I think you shouldn't worry, the reign of literally unkillables wardens, cros or templars is not threatened, they will continue to have fun, with a little more competition.

Please point out where I say "the new DK is broken"
Read my other post about DK that I made.

I say that the change to Flame Lash having no cooldown is overperforming and I have established why it is a concerning change and I have also explained how the skill should be changed to still perform better than it does on live without making it too powerful.

Having other OP things in the game is no excuse for adding new overperforming stuff to the game.

Jhalan

VarisVaris wrote: »

Jhalan wrote: »

magplar spammable heals more and damages more even after this ''buff'' to power lash and it always hits more and always heals since it doenst need OB. DK's literally had to cope with having trash spammables (no spammable on stam), downright disgusting passives, no delayed burst, no proper debuff, no purge, trash sustain all these years, and then we finally get some little buffs and people start to complain.

Power Lash didn't receive a "little buff" it was overbuffed and DKs without bias can acknowledge that.

No it really did receive a ''little buff''. it is not overbuffed and im not biased, im a stamblade main. even after these buffs dk is still underwhelming compared to templars, wardens and necros. I mean heal half the dmg you deal on an aoe spammeble while slowing people? Little to no cost skill hitting harder than DB with major defile? Having a non major buff 10 percent mitigation on your kit? Multiple dmg done bonuses and easy access to major mending and toughness? Dont worry they are still op as they were. They now have competition.

Aldoss

VarisVaris wrote: »

I'm sorry but fighting a world boss is in no way comparable to PvP, on top of Way of Air and Hrothgar being trash sets.

CMX doesn't capture overhealing that's why your average heals are screwed and way too low.

Trash sets don't make the numbers invalid. I'd argue they should highlight your point more, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Where are yours? Or are you asking ZOS to renerf the dk because of your feelings?

jaws343

I think it would be better to show the skills damage potential on a magdk since spell pen is going to be important for damage. When it performs on par with a stam spammable, without the type of pen that a mag build would have, then yeah, I would be concerned that this is very overtunded.

VarisVaris

Aldoss wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

I'm sorry but fighting a world boss is in no way comparable to PvP, on top of Way of Air and Hrothgar being trash sets.

CMX doesn't capture overhealing that's why your average heals are screwed and way too low.

Trash sets don't make the numbers invalid. I'd argue they should highlight your point more, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Where are yours? Or are you asking ZOS to renerf the dk because of your feelings?

My points have been made above.
I'll repeat my criticism against your evidence:
1. You're fighting in PvE against a weak World boss
2. You've used average healing numbers while the add-on fails to track overhealing leading to completely wrong results
3. You've used a bad setup

I have dueled over and over on PTS since it launched and I have been playing Magdk for long enough to know what is fine and what is too much.