Mag vs Stam

ZeroDPS

Lets start this discussion folks!

The thing is that we have 2 damage dealers in this game one is stamina based(melee) and magicka based(ranged). Okay having said that, let's move on to pros and cons for each!

Stamina

• Pros ->
  • After latest changes to crit and overall changes in general I see no pros for stamina based characters.... I mean no unique use of them, especially in trials(due to cons)
• Cons ->
  1. They dont see battlefield in wide angle, more difficult to notice incoming danger
  2. Doing almost the same dps as magicka sometimes even less due to trying to stay alive(why is this an issue will tell later)
  3. Extremely weak in terms of defenses
  4. Always runs close to bosses to do a damage and obviously almost always in enemy aoe dots
  5. This one is really unbalanced thing, stamina characters using their main resource for everything(sprint, sneak, break free, roll dodge...)
  6. Okayish sustain due to stamina usage for everything
  7. Bad self healing

Magicka

• Pros ->
  • You can see battlefield in wider angle
  • They are not under the feet of boss
  • Not in constant aoe damage
  • Its easier to escape deadly situations
  • Main advantage they are NOT using their main resource to do roll dodge and all other stamina based things!
  • Most of them have built in shields
  • Good sustain
  • Good self Healing
  • Good defense
• Cons ->
  • Really I dont see any cons here...

In my humble opinion, stamina characters must do 20% more damage to compensate all cons they have. Because good experienced players will not feel rewarded if they are able to stay alive, do everything they have to, and at least do not see "okay this one was very difficult, at least I did better damage". Also raid leaders may risk taking good stamina dps to raid knowing yes he/she is squishy but doing good damage. On the other hand, if the dps +- equal for both of them, why risk and take stamina when you can take mag dps and play without getting nervous. Maybe I missed something here but main differences are these.

You may see additional info here in confirmation of my words:
https://alcasthq.com/eso-dps-tier-list-best-damage-classes/

Share with me your opinions guys!

P.S. and as always @ZOS_Kevin , @ZOS_GinaBruno

gamerguy757

I think a good pro with Stamina is personally, I’ve noticed skills are cheaper so sustain can be better,
Also, with Crit Cap, this gives you more options for CP. example: normally you would stack CP on the Crit Damage bonuses. Now you can stack more on the Crit chance or the CP that adds weapons damage to skills or the co that increase direct or single damage or DOTs

ResidentContrarian

What if their goal is for everything to not be reduced to mag v. stam at the end of the day?

FluffWit

I prefer stamina because it's just easier for the 95% of the game where I'm not doing anything challenging. I'm fast and I can sprint for a couple minutes without really losing much stamina.

Right now I'm mostly running delve and world boss dailies. I can just sprint past everything in the delves easily and I can still solo ost world bosses in Cowards Gear + The Wild Hunt ring.

ZeroDPS

Yes sure but Im talking about end game.

Grandchamp1989

Mag sustain is worse than stam.
You just dont notice it a lot in game, because most support set ups are tailor made for mag compositions xD

Flaaklypa

in pvp is quite the opposite, and thats okay. Stamina is being kept in check by the PvP meta, and Magicka is being kept in check by the PvE meta. ZOS has tried to somewhat equalize both of these by some stam buffs like carve and caltrops, and similarly to magicka by making medium usable for them too.

Ippokrates

Well yeah, stamina is making less dps because they are directed toward more universal & solo gameplay. Personally i am running few mirror alts and i have experience that although magicka is usually giving me more dps (but not always, since kilt ) vet arenas & solo dungeons are much easier with stambuilds. Maybe because armour, maybe because skills (2h rulezz) OR maybe because even of they are using stamina for their skills, they usually have 2-3k stam recovery, so they can use dodges or block more often than mag that are going out of resources much quicker.

Also I do not agree that they are forced to do melee stuff. Sure, some classes are better in range (necro, warden) than others (dk, templar) but bow itself offers a really good choice of range skills - if you know how to use it.

And when it comes to crit - i just want to remind that stam might not have this additional % from armour but can use daggers & bows that compensates this disadvantage more than well.

The only issue that still is making the difference is penetration buuuut... since you have new sets like Crimson Oath and arena bosses have less physical resist than spell, both team & solo content are covered.

So the real difference is in people's heads. Once they will appreciate stamina, they could build trial groups also for them, not only magicka ;p

And there is also pvp...

Hallothiel

And that is why ‘end game’ is so ridiculous.

Surely if they were such good players, they would be able to run trials with both mag & stam & still do well?! 😘

It just annoys me as I have friends who are bloody excellent stam dds who are excluded from vet hm trials just because of this stupid ‘meta’ focus.

Perhaps the devs can stream a mixed set up doing a vet hm trial, one that is considered ‘mag only’ to show it can be done. 😉

MEBengalsFan2001

ZeroDPS wrote: »

Lets start this discussion folks!

The thing is that we have 2 damage dealers in this game one is stamina based(melee) and magicka based(ranged). Okay having said that, let's move on to pros and cons for each!

Stamina

• Pros ->
  • After latest changes to crit and overall changes in general I see no pros for stamina based characters.... I mean no unique use of them, especially in trials(due to cons)
• Cons ->
  1. They dont see battlefield in wide angle, more difficult to notice incoming danger
  2. Doing almost the same dps as magicka sometimes even less due to trying to stay alive(why is this an issue will tell later)
  3. Extremely weak in terms of defenses
  4. Always runs close to bosses to do a damage and obviously almost always in enemy aoe dots
  5. This one is really unbalanced thing, stamina characters using their main resource for everything(sprint, sneak, break free, roll dodge...)
  6. Okayish sustain due to stamina usage for everything
  7. Bad self healing

Magicka

• Pros ->
  • You can see battlefield in wider angle
  • They are not under the feet of boss
  • Not in constant aoe damage
  • Its easier to escape deadly situations
  • Main advantage they are NOT using their main resource to do roll dodge and all other stamina based things!
  • Most of them have built in shields
  • Good sustain
  • Good self Healing
  • Good defense
• Cons ->
  • Really I dont see any cons here...

In my humble opinion, stamina characters must do 20% more damage to compensate all cons they have. Because good experienced players will not feel rewarded if they are able to stay alive, do everything they have to, and at least do not see "okay this one was very difficult, at least I did better damage". Also raid leaders may risk taking good stamina dps to raid knowing yes he/she is squishy but doing good damage. On the other hand, if the dps +- equal for both of them, why risk and take stamina when you can take mag dps and play without getting nervous. Maybe I missed something here but main differences are these.

You may see additional info here in confirmation of my words:
https://alcasthq.com/eso-dps-tier-list-best-damage-classes/

Share with me your opinions guys!

P.S. and as always @ZOS_Kevin , @ZOS_GinaBruno

Actually you forgot about the Bow/Bow stamina build. It can be effective in content.

MudcrabAttack

There’s already a mage meta, so let’s give mages relequen and make medium armor worthless for half the classes that exist in trials

MudcrabAttack

Hallothiel wrote: »

And that is why ‘end game’ is so ridiculous.

Surely if they were such good players, they would be able to run trials with both mag & stam & still do well?! 😘

It just annoys me as I have friends who are bloody excellent stam dds who are excluded from vet hm trials just because of this stupid ‘meta’ focus.

Perhaps the devs can stream a mixed set up doing a vet hm trial, one that is considered ‘mag only’ to show it can be done. 😉

Yes you can complete any content with any mix of stamina/magic characters, as long as the players aren’t struggling. I bring a stamblade archer along into a trial guild full of mages. There could be more dps with basically any other character in any other setup, except perhaps stam DK, but the archer stamblade is the one I like most. As long as I’m more than carrying my own weight, I suppose they’ll let me keep coming.

But I imagine if it was just borderline passing for their requirements I’d have a harder time getting in.

Next patch I’ll definitely be doing less dps on stamblade since my group wants to use elemental catalyst, however all the magsorcs in that group won’t even notice any change whatsoever. ZOS is reducing the power level of the wrong things, way to go ZOS, now more than ever it’s not really play as you want when it comes to trials

moo_2021

stamina better in pvp means there are many things missing with PvE contents.


Nothing unpredictable, no enemy encircling players, throw aoe on player location, go visible and hit on the back NOT one second after but wait for opportunity, etc.

And part of the problem is due to tank. From single player or PvP perspective the very idea that enemies only hit tank is hilariously stupid..

magnusthorek

Your list of problems also affects melee-based Magicka players, like Templars

AdamLAD

PvE Magicka Dominates
PvP Stamina Dominates

moo_2021

magnusthorek wrote: »

Your list of problems also affects melee-based Magicka players, like Templars

Yep basically it's a melee problem not really magicka, but would a bow build perform as good as other stamina builds or magicka?

RandomKodiak

moo_2021 wrote: »

Yep basically it's a melee problem not really magicka, but would a bow build perform as good as other stamina builds or magicka?

That's from PTS even better with Rele but not by much. Wardens can do slightly more as can NB if they can close for execute.
Put that one up as it is in non trial gear on my Stamsorc bow/bow. Once again PTS on live I can hit 90k with Rele/Kilt/Tzogvins

RandomKodiak

But with the above in mind it does require a group to let you in and give some more general debuffs to be at it's best. It can be done and if your trial leader is willing to give you a chance make the most of it.

Kusto

The crit dmg cap nex patch is the final nail in coffin for stam dps. Mag was already heavily favored in ALL pve content and now they extended the gap even more. And those who say adapt, use different sets and cp, have you tested stam on pts? Crit damage was so good that theres no alternative. Sure you can use different sets and replace cp with 150wep dmg lol but that doesn't bring you near the same dps as before. While nothing changed for mag, they still got pen and crit chance.
Play as you want, right?

peacenote

Yea I'm not a theory crafter and I hope my instinct is incorrect but the hybridization and crit cap seems like it will give us less options, not more. If all builds can use everything there will just be less "best" options. Seems boring. Already I'm hearing this will be it for two healers in trials because if mag DPS uses Kinras we don't need Combat Prayer anymore.

Well, not only does everyone not want to do magicka DPS, not everyone wants to DPS. Healers are already being pushed into DPS slots/roles before this... stam DPS becoming less viable just makes it worse.

Honestly, "play how you want" needs to be designed around trials and PvP. Because it's already been possible to do it in overland/questing content for a long time. If a play style isn't welcome in end game, it's not really being supported by the devs.

Redguards_Revenge

ZeroDPS wrote: »

Lets start this discussion folks!

The thing is that we have 2 damage dealers in this game one is stamina based(melee) and magicka based(ranged). Okay having said that, let's move on to pros and cons for each!

Stamina

• Pros ->
  • After latest changes to crit and overall changes in general I see no pros for stamina based characters.... I mean no unique use of them, especially in trials(due to cons)
• Cons ->
  1. They dont see battlefield in wide angle, more difficult to notice incoming danger
  2. Doing almost the same dps as magicka sometimes even less due to trying to stay alive(why is this an issue will tell later)
  3. Extremely weak in terms of defenses
  4. Always runs close to bosses to do a damage and obviously almost always in enemy aoe dots
  5. This one is really unbalanced thing, stamina characters using their main resource for everything(sprint, sneak, break free, roll dodge...)
  6. Okayish sustain due to stamina usage for everything
  7. Bad self healing

Magicka

• Pros ->
  • You can see battlefield in wider angle
  • They are not under the feet of boss
  • Not in constant aoe damage
  • Its easier to escape deadly situations
  • Main advantage they are NOT using their main resource to do roll dodge and all other stamina based things!
  • Most of them have built in shields
  • Good sustain
  • Good self Healing
  • Good defense
• Cons ->
  • Really I dont see any cons here...

In my humble opinion, stamina characters must do 20% more damage to compensate all cons they have. Because good experienced players will not feel rewarded if they are able to stay alive, do everything they have to, and at least do not see "okay this one was very difficult, at least I did better damage". Also raid leaders may risk taking good stamina dps to raid knowing yes he/she is squishy but doing good damage. On the other hand, if the dps +- equal for both of them, why risk and take stamina when you can take mag dps and play without getting nervous. Maybe I missed something here but main differences are these.

You may see additional info here in confirmation of my words:
https://alcasthq.com/eso-dps-tier-list-best-damage-classes/

Share with me your opinions guys!

P.S. and as always @ZOS_Kevin , @ZOS_GinaBruno

I can see where you are coming from. It is because the sets made Roll dodge, break free and block useless mitigators. Everybody just uses things to outheal incoming damage. Also due to lagging issues break free and roll dodge are not reliable.
Some people want to say "Stamina is good" but the truth is THE SETS ARE GOOD!!! NOT STAMINA!!!

You remove those sets that do the work, stamina becomes worthless fast.

I had a build with infinite stamina. I thought I was going to be good at mitigation. Instead I hit the break free button 10 times just to die and look at my stamina bar at full. It was dumb. So I removed all my stamina and threw it all into health. I am not running around popping shield ult every 10 seconds with high health..

I am now just an unkillable person getting bagged when people finally drop me. I get a good laugh out of it. I quit trying to kill in pvp.

karekiz

ZeroDPS wrote: »

Yes sure but Im talking about end game.

Most people don't use stamina before cap. Post cap people won't use stam.

Crit dmg isn't the issue with Stam

Having said that - I have had Stormfist crit for 65K dmg itself on PTS. Proc sets are nutty for Stam if you equip some of them. Hell I did a 4 button StamBlade Khajiit <Blade Cloak -> Twisting -> Shade -> Rapid> and did 86K DPS with Stormfist/Aegis/Pillar of Nirn.

Aegis doing roughly 6.5K DPS and Pillar nearly 7K itself. Stormfist was around 5.5K DPS.

Sun7dance

Contra Stamina: Vateshran Hollows
Pro Magicka: Vateshran Hollows

Really this arena shows the problem best!

Vevvev

ZeroDPS wrote: »

The thing is that we have 2 damage dealers in this game one is stamina based(melee) and magicka based(ranged).

Cries in magDK as their greatest strength is melee.