Nightblade still too strong in this patch

ResidentContrarian

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I'm very well aquatinted with pvp templar.

Honor the dead, my preferred morph, crits me 28k health. Non-crit still pushes 20k. Yes, that matters when facing NBs, because if they fail to kill me while I'm CC'd, they are either dead or running away, because one hit of honor the dead and I'm all good.

Yes, healing on sweeps matters. As does extended ritual which I can get 3k per tick from. You combine all three sources of healing PLUS CP health return PLUS pale order and you have a class that can survive quite well AND kill.

I'm not even going to go into the rest of their defense tool kit which is quite substantial.

28K honor the dead crit, 3K ritual ticks?

Not adding up.

Also, exactly why would you slot honor the dead over healing ward if you really heal that much with honor the dead? Ward would be superior in every case esp. since it scales on more factors than honor the dead does IMO.

Abyssmol

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I'm very well aquatinted with pvp templar.

Honor the dead, my preferred morph, crits me 28k health. Non-crit still pushes 20k. Yes, that matters when facing NBs, because if they fail to kill me while I'm CC'd, they are either dead or running away, because one hit of honor the dead and I'm all good.

Yes, healing on sweeps matters. As does extended ritual which I can get 3k per tick from. You combine all three sources of healing PLUS CP health return PLUS pale order and you have a class that can survive quite well AND kill.

I'm not even going to go into the rest of their defense tool kit which is quite substantial.

28K honor the dead crit, 3K ritual ticks?

Not adding up.

Also, exactly why would you slot honor the dead over healing ward if you really heal that much with honor the dead? Ward would be superior in every case esp. since it scales on more factors than honor the dead does IMO.

He most be talking about pve. I have never seen honor the dead heal for 28k, never in 7 years.

fred4

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I'm very well aquatinted with pvp templar.

Honor the dead, my preferred morph, crits me 28k health. Non-crit still pushes 20k. Yes, that matters when facing NBs, because if they fail to kill me while I'm CC'd, they are either dead or running away, because one hit of honor the dead and I'm all good.

Yes, healing on sweeps matters. As does extended ritual which I can get 3k per tick from. You combine all three sources of healing PLUS CP health return PLUS pale order and you have a class that can survive quite well AND kill.

I'm not even going to go into the rest of their defense tool kit which is quite substantial.

28K honor the dead crit, 3K ritual ticks?

Not adding up.

Also, exactly why would you slot honor the dead over healing ward if you really heal that much with honor the dead? Ward would be superior in every case esp. since it scales on more factors than honor the dead does IMO.

I'm skeptical as well. In regard to Healing Ward the answer is probably simple: He probably runs a 1H+S or ice staff back bar. I certainly find that overall better / tankier than a resto staff.

fred4

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So please, let's not get ridiculous and pretend that NBs are as well rounded, with the ability to perform many different playstyles, as templars, wardens, necros, and sorcs.

This is actually another thing that rubs me the wrong way. The reason I play a cloaking NB is that I play multiple classes, not because nightblade is limited. If I want to play a brawler, I play another class. There are arguably 3 classes on the stamina side, DK / warden / necro, that are, in fact, much more locked into that one single role than nightblade is locked into any role. You can play a nightblade brawler. You can use Dark Cloak. You can also spec for AOE. I ran into a Hrothgar / Whirlwind stamblade that was really effective the other day. On magblade I'm a melee / ranged / AOE hybrid. I don't bomb people, but I use Sap Essence to "clean up" the endless dodge rollers. Again, I am not arguing that magblade is strong, but I am arguing that it is, in fact, a versatile class.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Abyssmol wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I'm very well aquatinted with pvp templar.

Honor the dead, my preferred morph, crits me 28k health. Non-crit still pushes 20k. Yes, that matters when facing NBs, because if they fail to kill me while I'm CC'd, they are either dead or running away, because one hit of honor the dead and I'm all good.

Yes, healing on sweeps matters. As does extended ritual which I can get 3k per tick from. You combine all three sources of healing PLUS CP health return PLUS pale order and you have a class that can survive quite well AND kill.

I'm not even going to go into the rest of their defense tool kit which is quite substantial.

28K honor the dead crit, 3K ritual ticks?

Not adding up.

Also, exactly why would you slot honor the dead over healing ward if you really heal that much with honor the dead? Ward would be superior in every case esp. since it scales on more factors than honor the dead does IMO.

He most be talking about pve. I have never seen honor the dead heal for 28k, never in 7 years.

I don't play a templar, but I can tell you from bringing them to the edge of death 1000s of times only to see them shoot back to full hp that they must be able to heal quite a lot. Always has been this way too. When I come across a templar tank and my burst fails to kill them I just cloak and leave because you straight up won't kill them after that point. They counter a two gcd(plus proc sets) combo with 1 gcd, its impossible. Templar tanks with good heals are the biggest FU to nbs in the entire game.

fred4

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

I don't play a templar, but I can tell you from bringing them to the edge of death 1000s of times only to see them shoot back to full hp that they must be able to heal quite a lot.

That is how templars work. At the very least that's one way of running them, perhaps what you might call the traditional way. You build them somewhat tanky or you play them very aggressively and aim to put your opponent on the defensive. Either way, more than any other class you let your health run down, then you recover by (block)casting Honor the Dead. It's a reactive heal. It's both a blessing and a curse. Some people think burst heals are the be all and end all, but IMO they're not. Healing up without ongoing healing is not great at all, as your health immediately drops again.

If you're a well-played stamblade, you should be much the same. You don't have an on-demand burst heal, but you have something close: Rally. The fact that Rally needs to charge up doesn't really count for much. If you are backed into spamming your burst heal, you won't last anyway, because you can't sustain that.

Always has been this way too.

Nope. When Battle Spirit put healing at 44%, I found it really difficult to make templar still work. Could not heal to full in one go. The class relies on healing to full, because it needs that window between full health and, say, 40% to stay out of execute range. They are more vulnerable to their health running down while on attack, due to their spammable being a channel. If I'm in a duel on my DK and we're both at, say 50% health, I may decide to keep pushing while block-casting some attacks on the front bar and knowing I have a leap in hand. Templar can't do that. It relies on it's burst heal to get back up quickly, because it is so open when you use Sweeps.

When I come across a templar tank and my burst fails to kill them I just cloak and leave because you straight up won't kill them after that point.

I would not automatically equate templar with "tank". Any class can be built as a tank. This isn't a valid critique of templar.

The thing about tanks, in general, is that they are vulnerable to sustained damage. Nightblades and burst builds are not well equipped to handle tanks. 90% of the above-average players in PvP run burst builds. I ran an off-meta pressure build in the past whose attack largely consisted of spamming Bloodthirst along with uncleansable AOE, such as Deadly Cloak, Flames of Oblivion and regular CC (Fossilize). That build killed tanks. Not all tanks, but it was better at it than burst builds.

They counter a two gcd(plus proc sets) combo with 1 gcd, its impossible. Templar tanks with good heals are the biggest FU to nbs in the entire game.

As far as I'm concerned there is nothing wrong with that. It's rock / paper / scissors. That's part of the game. As to templars who are not tanks, you have to surprise them. I once had a protracted open world duel with a templar who I knew to be quite good. I was on my magsorc, a class I fumble with. Long story short: He couldn't really touch me and he eventually exploded, because he messed up his rotation and didn't cleanse my curse / execute. At the higher levels of the game it's all about psyching each other out, regardless of the classes you play.

Xvorg

Patro wrote: »

Maybe I have difficulty in making you understand that what you see in my death recap happened in a split second.

Counter ganking is one of the special skills you must develop when playing this game. Once you learn how to do it you will see regular NBs in stop motion.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Patro wrote: »

[snip]

How do you know that? [snip]

[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

JonnytheKing

one word: Sheilds

DrSlaughtr

Abyssmol wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I'm very well aquatinted with pvp templar.

Honor the dead, my preferred morph, crits me 28k health. Non-crit still pushes 20k. Yes, that matters when facing NBs, because if they fail to kill me while I'm CC'd, they are either dead or running away, because one hit of honor the dead and I'm all good.

Yes, healing on sweeps matters. As does extended ritual which I can get 3k per tick from. You combine all three sources of healing PLUS CP health return PLUS pale order and you have a class that can survive quite well AND kill.

I'm not even going to go into the rest of their defense tool kit which is quite substantial.

28K honor the dead crit, 3K ritual ticks?

Not adding up.

Also, exactly why would you slot honor the dead over healing ward if you really heal that much with honor the dead? Ward would be superior in every case esp. since it scales on more factors than honor the dead does IMO.

He most be talking about pve. I have never seen honor the dead heal for 28k, never in 7 years.

Nope, pvp. I don't pve. All you need to do is invest in the right blue CP and weapon trait. Templars don't need a ton of damage CP because it's about overwhelming your opponent than bursting.

Either way, the fact that we're still comparing the tool kit for templars with nightblades is pretty funny.

TheS1X

Nightblade too strong? I am playing ESO already 4 years I think and played only with NB because I could not keep up with all toons because constant changes.
Trust me when I say that NB is weakest class that you can play and ofc some NB players are very talented and if someone is talented with NB they shine alot with their skills.
I have NB who has 15k pen + 5k when using mark on target, my crit chance is around 40% and my wep damage is around 5.5 - 6k when buffed and I struggle alot agains every class there is, only class that I can take down easy is fellow NB
On BGs when I get lots of kills, those are mostly kill steals from other players, I struggle alot against Sorcs for example.
( I play with cp 1.5k to 2k players )
Reasons why someone dies for a NB is because they got ganked and ganking is only thing why NB is playable.
They are so squishy that they need to attack players who are not ready with their shields on etc...
And sometimes it is not class that kills you but procs, this is another thing what to keep in mind.
Anyways, NB is squishy average damage dealer who can kill you if you are afk.

Cillion3117

Tell that to my corpse.

wazzz56

TheS1X wrote: »

Nightblade too strong? I am playing ESO already 4 years I think and played only with NB because I could not keep up with all toons because constant changes.
Trust me when I say that NB is weakest class that you can play and ofc some NB players are very talented and if someone is talented with NB they shine alot with their skills.
I have NB who has 15k pen + 5k when using mark on target, my crit chance is around 40% and my wep damage is around 5.5 - 6k when buffed and I struggle alot agains every class there is, only class that I can take down easy is fellow NB
On BGs when I get lots of kills, those are mostly kill steals from other players, I struggle alot against Sorcs for example.
( I play with cp 1.5k to 2k players )
Reasons why someone dies for a NB is because they got ganked and ganking is only thing why NB is playable.
They are so squishy that they need to attack players who are not ready with their shields on etc...
And sometimes it is not class that kills you but procs, this is another thing what to keep in mind.
Anyways, NB is squishy average damage dealer who can kill you if you are afk.

as someone who has a few nbs (8) I can say there are many points in your comment that are far from accurate ......having 20k buffed pen and 6k dmg you should not be struggling to kill "every class but nb" ..this is not a class problem, it is legit a l2p issue ( and I say that in a non bashing way) ...nb may be squishy , but they are not a gank only class..yes the pvp enviro is pretty awful rn and yes there are a lot of bad situations a nb (of any other class )can find themselves in, but stam nbs are far from the most over or under powered class ..mag blade different story....but that is for an whole new thread to discuss

TheS1X

wazzz56 wrote: »

TheS1X wrote: »

Nightblade too strong? I am playing ESO already 4 years I think and played only with NB because I could not keep up with all toons because constant changes.
Trust me when I say that NB is weakest class that you can play and ofc some NB players are very talented and if someone is talented with NB they shine alot with their skills.
I have NB who has 15k pen + 5k when using mark on target, my crit chance is around 40% and my wep damage is around 5.5 - 6k when buffed and I struggle alot agains every class there is, only class that I can take down easy is fellow NB
On BGs when I get lots of kills, those are mostly kill steals from other players, I struggle alot against Sorcs for example.
( I play with cp 1.5k to 2k players )
Reasons why someone dies for a NB is because they got ganked and ganking is only thing why NB is playable.
They are so squishy that they need to attack players who are not ready with their shields on etc...
And sometimes it is not class that kills you but procs, this is another thing what to keep in mind.
Anyways, NB is squishy average damage dealer who can kill you if you are afk.

as someone who has a few nbs (8) I can say there are many points in your comment that are far from accurate ......having 20k buffed pen and 6k dmg you should not be struggling to kill "every class but nb" ..this is not a class problem, it is legit a l2p issue ( and I say that in a non bashing way) ...nb may be squishy , but they are not a gank only class..yes the pvp enviro is pretty awful rn and yes there are a lot of bad situations a nb (of any other class )can find themselves in, but stam nbs are far from the most over or under powered class ..mag blade different story....but that is for an whole new thread to discuss

Well, I am not saying that I can not kill people who are off guard, ofc I can, I have so high pen for tanks.
And I can kill players who are not that good.
BUT, If I take same lvl sorc as me who noticed me, who flyes around shield on, teleporting and stunning me and same time macro bursts me with one hit to oblivion, I must say that NB is waaay more underpowered than sorc is.
I will not even start fight with necros, I would run first 10x out of resources to kill it. ( BUT, ofc, I have ganked some low lvl Necros too! ) Now, fighting against same lvl DK, same thing, I will lose, DK is just sooo much stronger with way more health.
Wardens are same way OP and Templars I can kill if they suck at healing them selves but mostly they heal my burst away and jump on me with full resources and only thing that I can do is hide and run and maybe try later again.
Sorcs are killable if they are off shield but most Sorcs run around shield on.
So, it really depends if I fight against bad players or good players. Sometimes I play against bad players on low elo and I rek them all and when ever I get higher elo, now there I feel like underpowered wet noodle against all classes and those few NBs who play there are very skilled. Not sure how accurate I sound now, I don't care, this is my opinion and NB is far to be too strong, I would rather say that SORC is far too OP and those Macro SORCs, omg.

wazzz56

TheS1X wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

TheS1X wrote: »

Nightblade too strong? I am playing ESO already 4 years I think and played only with NB because I could not keep up with all toons because constant changes.
Trust me when I say that NB is weakest class that you can play and ofc some NB players are very talented and if someone is talented with NB they shine alot with their skills.
I have NB who has 15k pen + 5k when using mark on target, my crit chance is around 40% and my wep damage is around 5.5 - 6k when buffed and I struggle alot agains every class there is, only class that I can take down easy is fellow NB
On BGs when I get lots of kills, those are mostly kill steals from other players, I struggle alot against Sorcs for example.
( I play with cp 1.5k to 2k players )
Reasons why someone dies for a NB is because they got ganked and ganking is only thing why NB is playable.
They are so squishy that they need to attack players who are not ready with their shields on etc...
And sometimes it is not class that kills you but procs, this is another thing what to keep in mind.
Anyways, NB is squishy average damage dealer who can kill you if you are afk.

as someone who has a few nbs (8) I can say there are many points in your comment that are far from accurate ......having 20k buffed pen and 6k dmg you should not be struggling to kill "every class but nb" ..this is not a class problem, it is legit a l2p issue ( and I say that in a non bashing way) ...nb may be squishy , but they are not a gank only class..yes the pvp enviro is pretty awful rn and yes there are a lot of bad situations a nb (of any other class )can find themselves in, but stam nbs are far from the most over or under powered class ..mag blade different story....but that is for an whole new thread to discuss

Well, I am not saying that I can not kill people who are off guard, ofc I can, I have so high pen for tanks.
And I can kill players who are not that good.
BUT, If I take same lvl sorc as me who noticed me, who flyes around shield on, teleporting and stunning me and same time macro bursts me with one hit to oblivion, I must say that NB is waaay more underpowered than sorc is.
I will not even start fight with necros, I would run first 10x out of resources to kill it. ( BUT, ofc, I have ganked some low lvl Necros too! ) Now, fighting against same lvl DK, same thing, I will lose, DK is just sooo much stronger with way more health.
Wardens are same way OP and Templars I can kill if they suck at healing them selves but mostly they heal my burst away and jump on me with full resources and only thing that I can do is hide and run and maybe try later again.
Sorcs are killable if they are off shield but most Sorcs run around shield on.
So, it really depends if I fight against bad players or good players. Sometimes I play against bad players on low elo and I rek them all and when ever I get higher elo, now there I feel like underpowered wet noodle against all classes and those few NBs who play there are very skilled. Not sure how accurate I sound now, I don't care, this is my opinion and NB is far to be too strong, I would rather say that SORC is far too OP and those Macro SORCs, omg.

Maybe you should try something other than just ganking? Also what are you wearing, that may be a bit of the issue as well....perhaps find a sorc or necro to duel to get more comfy and effective while fighting them?

TheS1X

Yes, yes, comfy, comfy. I had enough duels with different classes to know exactly how OP they can be compared with NB.
Anyways, I did not come here to prove my skills to anyone but rather to say that they are not strong like OP thinks.

"Whenever I lose to some other class, I claim them to be too strong and demand nerf till I get strongest and can kill everyone else with one hit, then I am pleased!"

This is how games are ruined, people don't like to die and every brat should feel like a god.
If something, NBs need a damage boost because there is too much tankiness.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

TheS1X wrote: »

Yes, yes, comfy, comfy. I had enough duels with different classes to know exactly how OP they can be compared with NB.
Anyways, I did not come here to prove my skills to anyone but rather to say that they are not strong like OP thinks.

"Whenever I lose to some other class, I claim them to be too strong and demand nerf till I get strongest and can kill everyone else with one hit, then I am pleased!"

This is how games are ruined, people don't like to die and every brat should feel like a god.
If something, NBs need a damage boost because there is too much tankiness.

NB damage is more then fine and doesn't need a buff, but I completely agree that tankiness is out of control. I think a nice good buff or rework to oblivion damage would solve that. Base damage under 1000, but scales off of every form of mitigation in the game instead of just hp. Some kinda threshold system where for every X amount of mitigation/hp/armor/shielding a player has it increases the damage exponentially.

Say your target has 40k hp, 30k armor, a 10k shield spell, major protection, and he is blocking 50%.

Base damage of oblivion weapon enchant 250 unresistable
20k or less hp doesn't increase damage/ 25k it goes up by 250/30k 750/35k 1500/40k 5000
10k armor doesn't increase/ 15k 250/ 20k 750/25k 1500/30k 5000
Every 5% of non armor mitigation increases 250
Every 5% of damage resist from blocking increases 250
Every 5k of shield spells increases 250

If I did the math right he should take 13500 damage from the oblivion weapon enchant.

Numbers are just an example or what I have in mind, not that it would be a good amount. Keep in mind however that one big burst of oblivion damage might not be enough to phase a really good tank in a 1v1. He would likely quickly recover that hp without you being able to sustain that kind of pressure through his insane defense. Maybe a better alternative would be to hard cap mitigation in pvp. Sload's and knight slayer obviously wouldn't work this way or they would be mad op, but they too should be reworked. I am just not in the mood to try and rework those right now. A quick idea I have though is a new mythic that turns all your damage into unresistable, but comes at a cost of maybe 2000 less weapon/spelldamage or 50% greater cost to abilities.

Investing heavily into passive defense would be risky and players would want to opt for active defense instead. Blocking and shield spells wouldn't add as much damage, so they would still be good. More skillful gameplay and no more needing a zerg to kill one good tank, do it zos.

Caecus0

This post doesn't show any context...

For all you know that NB was sitting on 500 ultimate with Balorgh. They got you with a Heavy Attack, Incap and Scourge in a row. That is their burst combo.

Honestly I hit for more on my Sorc on targets *by accident*

master_vanargand

too strong?
NB is the weakest class in 1v1.

Patro

PhoenixGrey

Patro wrote: »

That's a really bad build. On a 25k resistances build, incap should be hitting for more than 20k.

I think with the proc set change nb procs will all crit next patch. So maybe I can 1vx with just heavy attack and surprise attack.

TheS1X

Looks like very low damage...
I imagine that it was a gank, you are wearing light armor and you had no shield on + you have very low health pool.

If ZOS nerfs NBs because of those pictures you upload, there will be no Nightblades anymore, it would be better to just delete this class.

Anyways, how to balance classes for a PvP?
You make NO CP, NO PROC server that we have atm for a Cyro but it is not the best way to take notes, BG would be better.
You let it run and all classes will fight and eventually you get back information where you see what classes are performing balanced and what not. Posting pictures of your death recap will not get class nerfed because it is not valuable data.
I can post Death Recaps where Sorc one hits me with several spells that make 2x more damage than this crappy NB that killed you. For example, I respawned at BG and one Sorc one hited me or bombed me with a second, I could not even move and I was already dead again.

Pauwer

I have basic stats of 10 physical and spell resistance on my warden and i never see recaps like that. I don't know, man. You have to learn how to defend yourself. Do you use offensive skills when someone attacks you or defensive ones? When i nightblade ganks you, you can hear it coming and with a dodgeroll you are safe. Also on my mag toons i always use the radiant light or whatever it is, that makes you immune to stuns or something. I don't usually play mag, if you can tell. Also as a sorc you have the best tools to fight against nbs. You have streak. By the time you hear dizzy swing, you should have been long gone.

WreckfulAbandon

Patro wrote: »

It looks like you have under 30k health, maybe start there.

Don't really know what to say if you getting ganked by dizzying swing. He didn't even need Executioner.

Patro

It's useless to tell a lot of stories, the reality is that there shouldn't be a class that does 27k damage with 2 skills.

WreckfulAbandon

Patro wrote: »

It's useless to tell a lot of stories, the reality is that there shouldn't be a class that does 27k damage with 2 skills.

A NB hitting you for a 15k incap is not that special if you are a light armor wearing magsorc.

Taking extra dmg in light armor + running 27k health + getting caught unshielded = dead magsorc. It's not difficult.

The bold part is by far the most important part.

Pauwer

Patro wrote: »

It's useless to tell a lot of stories, the reality is that there shouldn't be a class that does 27k damage with 2 skills.

Any class can burst equal damage, including especially sorcs, to squishy folks in light armor who don't defence themselves. It's not the nb that is the problem here, sorry

Pauwer

I can tell from the hints in recap that you were stunned. To beging with use immovable potions and slot the mages guild skill that gives you immunity to stuns from ganks. You might want to use the psijic skill ulti also, the morph that you can cast while under control skills. To begin surving nbs. And streak streak streak. And remember to attack the nb after they have unsuccesfully completed their burst. You have the best tools to keep them out of stealth of all classes imo.

TheS1X

Patro wrote: »

It's useless to tell a lot of stories, the reality is that there shouldn't be a class that does 27k damage with 2 skills.

I am sorry but NB is weakest class for 1v1 and they are not that good with damage too. For example, I play BGs a lot atm because of deathmatch and best class for damage is Sorc, it pulls easily more damage and faster than NB and has better sustain and even better escape mechanics and better defense.
PS: Most classes kill you with one hit, trust me, this game is intense when it comes to PVP and it is better if people are killed fast rather than fighting 1h. The longer the fight is, the more boring the experience will be.
We see that a lot on cyro where they try to kill 10v1 templar and this *** is going to take like 30min, people die because of boredom.

Andre_Noir

Pauwer wrote: »

slot the mages guild skill that gives you immunity to stuns from ganks

Did you ever read how that skill works ? And what a conditions for NB's stun ?