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NB Cloak update - So uh.... This is about to go live?
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Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Does anyone else think that having to slot a skill or consumable to specifically counter one class is poor counter play design? What skill do you have to slot to counter a warden? Or necro? Or dk? Zos already limited bar space by game design, but nbs deserve their own slot? They could at least make decent detect pots for stam. Aoes pulling nbs from stealth at least added a multi-purpose tool to the set. Suppose I can just spam LA at space and hope for the best while waiting on the detect pot cool down. It's not like there is a stun mechanic from stealth or their spammable or anything....
Nope, I think it’s a great design to force people to make build choices. One could also argue you need a purge to fight a dk, a gap closer to fight sorcs, and a defile to fight wardens, templar, and necros, but just like with nb’s you can still be effective fighting them without using the counters.
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auz✭✭✭✭Purge removes all dots and effects. Not just dks. Defile effects everyone's healing. Gap closers are a movement tool against every class. That is good design. Buy this potion and you will be able to see invisible nightblades for 13 secs out of 47 is not.7
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OneWingedAnge7✭✭✭I main a stamblade in pvp and she is my day 1 character. I don't even use cloak anymore and I use the other morph. I run around with detect pots and effortlesss slap every single nightblade I see.
The sooner the community realises how much of an utter crutch the skill and playstyle is, the better.
Oh and there is a stamina detect option, it involves Chaurus eggs however so is neither common nor cheap. [snip]
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 23, 2021 10:30AM1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Nightblade is a very popular if not the most popular class on my server.
These tools will be mandatory after the patch, which is the wrong direction to go in my opinion.
It might even indirectly cause this change to be a huge nerf for nightblades because of everyone using some sort of detect tool.
Making the game more skill-based seems to be a very good direction. So yes, if players step up their gameplay and start effectively using such skills to pull NBs out of cloak it would hinder the NBs just as any other counter does. That is good for the game. Those that adapt improve. Those that do not fall behind.3 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Does anyone else think that having to slot a skill or consumable to specifically counter one class is poor counter play design? What skill do you have to slot to counter a warden? Or necro? Or dk? Zos already limited bar space by game design, but nbs deserve their own slot? They could at least make decent detect pots for stam. Aoes pulling nbs from stealth at least added a multi-purpose tool to the set. Suppose I can just spam LA at space and hope for the best while waiting on the detect pot cool down. It's not like there is a stun mechanic from stealth or their spammable or anything....
Nope, I think it’s a great design to force people to make build choices. One could also argue you need a purge to fight a dk, a gap closer to fight sorcs, and a defile to fight wardens, templar, and necros, but just like with nb’s you can still be effective fighting them without using the counters.
Purge only remove 3 negative effects, if you are fighting a dk, need to atleast use 2 time in a raw to remove their negative effects, you cqn definetly use hots and burst heals to better negate dk dots. Gap closers are not just needed to kill sorcs, but any other class that want to escape except for NB. Defile works against all class. For the most part, what you need to kill someone is either burst or sustained damage, in both cases other players can see you doing your combos and react qccodimgly, how do you react to inviable targetif you don't even know they are going to attack you or not? Nb are almost always the ones to start the fights because thier targets can't see them, make the perfect environment for burst combo.3 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭
Nightblade is a very popular if not the most popular class on my server.
These tools will be mandatory after the patch, which is the wrong direction to go in my opinion.
It might even indirectly cause this change to be a huge nerf for nightblades because of everyone using some sort of detect tool.
Making the game more skill-based seems to be a very good direction. So yes, if players step up their gameplay and start effectively using such skills to pull NBs out of cloak it would hinder the NBs just as any other counter does. That is good for the game. Those that adapt improve. Those that do not fall behind.
Let me use this one skill/pot that only works against 1 class out of 6, ehile i have other skills that work on all classes except for 1. It would make sense to use detect stuff if invisibility was accessable to other classes, but giving a specail treatment for one classes is not good. While warden and necros are making a fuss for bring op, nb(stablade especially) is like the elephent in the room.3 -
EF321✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »in both cases other players can see you doing your combos and react qccodimgly, how do you react to inviable targetif you don't even know they are going to attack you or not? Nb are almost always the ones to start the fights because thier targets can't see them, make the perfect environment for burst combo.
I agree, and even on a more global scale, not just in ESO, but in online games generally for some unknown reason devs like making invisible classes/heroes (and I'd put snipers into same category) that are capable of oneshotting you without any warning or a chance to react, with the counter to that is being paranoid 24/7 and wasting your resources for nothing because such class simply exists in game, even if none is present on the server. Which is never the case, as such classes usually make up at least half the server, I remember how back in the day TF2/BF3 many servers had to limit amount of Sniper spots (and spies in tf) due to excessive amount of players only playing these.
For me personally, such heroes never bring anything good to gameplay, as they are not fun to play against and only fun to play as. I prefer open direct confrontations where opponents can react to each other's actions and are given equal opportunities to outsmart and outplay each other, as opposed instantly dying when moving from point a to point b in an "empty" area with no action going on around. Just zzzzzzz.
This applies to ESO, as well as to many many other games I have played.
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TX12001rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Do these changes also effect potions of invisibility and the Vampire Stage 4 Unnatural Movement?2 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People are still vehemently refusing to use counters according to some posters in the thread. I guess it really was a buff for nightblade.
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Rossmann✭✭✭Well thing is in live servers now, cloak only reliable if u in a utter chaos ( like 3 alliance zergs clashing and nobody notices u) and u need to be careful for aoes.
If you want to fight more than one player or a group of players chasing you it's absolutely useless on its own. You also need to use shade in 1vX which is really makes it hard to sustain if you are a on a high damage build. (In stamblade)
By design NBs are squishy and cloak gives you best defense to choose when to fight or run.
Well, broken part is running part because as aforementioned even enemy player self buffing breaks cloak in bugged situations.2 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭Purge removes all dots and effects. Not just dks. Defile effects everyone's healing. Gap closers are a movement tool against every class. That is good design. Buy this potion and you will be able to see invisible nightblades for 13 secs out of 47 is not.universal_wrath wrote: »
Nightblade is a very popular if not the most popular class on my server.
These tools will be mandatory after the patch, which is the wrong direction to go in my opinion.
It might even indirectly cause this change to be a huge nerf for nightblades because of everyone using some sort of detect tool.
Making the game more skill-based seems to be a very good direction. So yes, if players step up their gameplay and start effectively using such skills to pull NBs out of cloak it would hinder the NBs just as any other counter does. That is good for the game. Those that adapt improve. Those that do not fall behind.
Let me use this one skill/pot that only works against 1 class out of 6, ehile i have other skills that work on all classes except for 1. It would make sense to use detect stuff if invisibility was accessable to other classes, but giving a specail treatment for one classes is not good. While warden and necros are making a fuss for bring op, nb(stablade especially) is like the elephent in the room.
Remember that the detect potions and skills also have other effects.
Detection is only one of the three effects on a potion. And all the detection skills provide passive effects for either offence or defence depending on your choice. At minimum a major buff plus some other effect. So these all have a universal benefit as well.
Sure, you only get full value of the potion or skill against a a nightblade. But you are still getting a good chunk of value the rest of the time.
Kinda similar to how other skills have effectiveness vary based on the context. For example purge is strong against a dot or debuff build, but only marginally effective against other builds, such as say the popular 2h burst combo of warden/necro. Or a gap closer offers full value against builds that try to run or kite but is of minimal benefit against an in your face build.
Alternatively, you could use a direct damage AoE. Damage dealing skills are useful against everyone.Edited by ExistingRug61 on August 23, 2021 12:36PM0 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »Do these changes also effect potions of invisibility and the Vampire Stage 4 Unnatural Movement?
It effects invisbility as whole I believe.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK0 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Anybody who is experienced enough and genuinely wants NB to be a good class will understand what it actually needs. It doens't need to be unique, it doesn't need to be this stealthy archetype, and it definitely doesn't need cloak to be buffed. What it needs is GOOD HEALS. When you have good heals, you can play any build, any playstyle. This is exactly why when anybody tells me streak needs a nerf, I just tell them to give stamsorc better self heals so they can ditch streak. Both NB and Sorc have the same issue with self heals, so they rely heavily on cloak/streak for mitigation. But if you give them good heals, they don't have to rely on those abilities for defense.3 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Anybody who is experienced enough and genuinely wants NB to be a good class will understand what it actually needs. It doens't need to be unique, it doesn't need to be this stealthy archetype, and it definitely doesn't need cloak to be buffed. What it needs is GOOD HEALS. When you have good heals, you can play any build, any playstyle. This is exactly why when anybody tells me streak needs a nerf, I just tell them to give stamsorc better self heals so they can ditch streak. Both NB and Sorc have the same issue with self heals, so they rely heavily on cloak/streak for mitigation. But if you give them good heals, they don't have to rely on those abilities for defense.
that is your own personal opinion
and i Disagree with you completely and i know im not alone in that.
you dont like invisibility, you dont like stealth
we get it, its made clear.
however, nightblade class is the only stealth class in eso i pray it stays that way and now it is working correctly as was intended at launch 2014.
Edited by Gilvoth on August 23, 2021 5:56PM4 -
gamma71✭✭✭✭The problem is we only have some many slots to equip are skills in other games like WoW I mained a druid so I used fairy fire against rogues I had plenty of room to slot it and it worked good in this game if I slot evil hunter or caltrops Wich looking by the video is worthless now against cloak I'm screwing myself outa a important slot Wich screws up my build and makes me weaker against all other classes also.
And then people that defend nb bombers tell us stay away from flags stay away from doors stay away from breeches stay away from zergs stay away from every one or any circumstance that could get u bombed so it's fine that one class can literally dictate the entire pvp aspect of this game nice. And we have to change are play style for one class we're as you do not. But if we don't we end up dead.
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MadeInVN✭✭✭✭I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Anybody who is experienced enough and genuinely wants NB to be a good class will understand what it actually needs. It doens't need to be unique, it doesn't need to be this stealthy archetype, and it definitely doesn't need cloak to be buffed. What it needs is GOOD HEALS. When you have good heals, you can play any build, any playstyle. This is exactly why when anybody tells me streak needs a nerf, I just tell them to give stamsorc better self heals so they can ditch streak. Both NB and Sorc have the same issue with self heals, so they rely heavily on cloak/streak for mitigation. But if you give them good heals, they don't have to rely on those abilities for defense.
that is your own personal opinion
and i Disagree with you completely and i know im not alone in that.
you dont like invisibility, you dont like stealth
we get it, its made clear.
however, nightblade class is the only stealth class in eso i pray it stays that way and now it is working correctly as was intended at launch 2014.
It's fine to disagree, but you are asking for the class to work based on 1 ability, 1 playstyle. You're intentionally asking for YOUR CLASS to be limited by 1 playstyle. Do you not support build diversity?0 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Anybody who is experienced enough and genuinely wants NB to be a good class will understand what it actually needs. It doens't need to be unique, it doesn't need to be this stealthy archetype, and it definitely doesn't need cloak to be buffed. What it needs is GOOD HEALS. When you have good heals, you can play any build, any playstyle. This is exactly why when anybody tells me streak needs a nerf, I just tell them to give stamsorc better self heals so they can ditch streak. Both NB and Sorc have the same issue with self heals, so they rely heavily on cloak/streak for mitigation. But if you give them good heals, they don't have to rely on those abilities for defense.
that is your own personal opinion
and i Disagree with you completely and i know im not alone in that.
you dont like invisibility, you dont like stealth
we get it, its made clear.
however, nightblade class is the only stealth class in eso i pray it stays that way and now it is working correctly as was intended at launch 2014.
It's fine to disagree, but you are asking for the class to work based on 1 ability, 1 playstyle. You're intentionally asking for YOUR CLASS to be limited by 1 playstyle. Do you not support build diversity?
But it’s not limited to one play style. Many of use the dark cloak morph which does not give invisibility so we can play as brawlers. As much as I don’t like cloak I would never want them to remove it and ruin a play style just like all the people that also want to ruin streak. Making all the classes the same would make for a very boring game.
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NagualV✭✭✭✭Genuinely asking here:
There is a poll in the pvp section that ranks magblade last/hardest/worst (among forum members, I realize its not a perfect poll) magic class to use in pvp.
If cloak is so broken/OP, how is it that magblade ranks last? I would love to hear what experienced players think.1 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭All newbies I showed PvP over the last month got blown up within minutes by Bombers.
Before people are even able to learn the basics they get killed by invisible Cowards.
If ZOS continues this way, at some point there will be no new players anymore.
Cloak Bombers are completely out of control.
Now cloak gets even stronger because Caltrops & Co do not reveal Cloakers.
Now people even have to sacrifice an entire attack slot to reveal Cloakers.
These are even TWO more reasons that balance in PvP is completely down the drain.
Edited by BalticBlues on August 23, 2021 7:22PM1 -
MadeInVN✭✭✭✭I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Anybody who is experienced enough and genuinely wants NB to be a good class will understand what it actually needs. It doens't need to be unique, it doesn't need to be this stealthy archetype, and it definitely doesn't need cloak to be buffed. What it needs is GOOD HEALS. When you have good heals, you can play any build, any playstyle. This is exactly why when anybody tells me streak needs a nerf, I just tell them to give stamsorc better self heals so they can ditch streak. Both NB and Sorc have the same issue with self heals, so they rely heavily on cloak/streak for mitigation. But if you give them good heals, they don't have to rely on those abilities for defense.
that is your own personal opinion
and i Disagree with you completely and i know im not alone in that.
you dont like invisibility, you dont like stealth
we get it, its made clear.
however, nightblade class is the only stealth class in eso i pray it stays that way and now it is working correctly as was intended at launch 2014.
It's fine to disagree, but you are asking for the class to work based on 1 ability, 1 playstyle. You're intentionally asking for YOUR CLASS to be limited by 1 playstyle. Do you not support build diversity?
But it’s not limited to one play style. Many of use the dark cloak morph which does not give invisibility so we can play as brawlers. As much as I don’t like cloak I would never want them to remove it and ruin a play style just like all the people that also want to ruin streak. Making all the classes the same would make for a very boring game.
Yea that's my point. Dark cloak isn't as good so people use cloak for a hit and run playstyle. Instead of asking for shadow cloak buff why don't people ask for dark cloak buff as well? lol0 -
Jameson18✭✭✭✭✭
Yea that's my point. Dark cloak isn't as good so people use cloak for a hit and run playstyle. Instead of asking for shadow cloak buff why don't people ask for dark cloak buff as well? lol
Have to wait another update or two for that. They just nerfed the healing morph an update or two ago. Plus then of course the healing nerf that is going/just went live. So.... meh.
I was a dark cloak brawler on my stam NB and left the hit and run to my mag one or vise versa when I had builds to try and such since most of my play time and enjoyment is theory crafting builds and pvping on them.
That's pretty much been ruined over the last few updates though. With all of my dozen toons being slowly pushed into cookie cutter meta corners. Even in PvE.
Its actually quite aggravating. The trending direction seems to be; "Play how you want..... from the 1 option we give you."3 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thank You for fixing stealth, invisibility now works correctly and is allowing us nightblades to have similar defenses like the other classes.
thank you developers, thank you!
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vamp_emily✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NBs need a damage buff.. I've been told I'm only doing 2k damage on my skills.
BUFF NBs!
If you want a friend, get a dog.
AW Rank: Grand Warlord 1 ( level 49)1 -
auz✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Purge removes all dots and effects. Not just dks. Defile effects everyone's healing. Gap closers are a movement tool against every class. That is good design. Buy this potion and you will be able to see invisible nightblades for 13 secs out of 47 is not.universal_wrath wrote: »
Nightblade is a very popular if not the most popular class on my server.
These tools will be mandatory after the patch, which is the wrong direction to go in my opinion.
It might even indirectly cause this change to be a huge nerf for nightblades because of everyone using some sort of detect tool.
Making the game more skill-based seems to be a very good direction. So yes, if players step up their gameplay and start effectively using such skills to pull NBs out of cloak it would hinder the NBs just as any other counter does. That is good for the game. Those that adapt improve. Those that do not fall behind.
Let me use this one skill/pot that only works against 1 class out of 6, ehile i have other skills that work on all classes except for 1. It would make sense to use detect stuff if invisibility was accessable to other classes, but giving a specail treatment for one classes is not good. While warden and necros are making a fuss for bring op, nb(stablade especially) is like the elephent in the room.
Remember that the detect potions and skills also have other effects.
Detection is only one of the three effects on a potion. And all the detection skills provide passive effects for either offence or defence depending on your choice. At minimum a major buff plus some other effect. So these all have a universal benefit as well.
Sure, you only get full value of the potion or skill against a a nightblade. But you are still getting a good chunk of value the rest of the time.
Kinda similar to how other skills have effectiveness vary based on the context. For example purge is strong against a dot or debuff build, but only marginally effective against other builds, such as say the popular 2h burst combo of warden/necro. Or a gap closer offers full value against builds that try to run or kite but is of minimal benefit against an in your face build.
Alternatively, you could use a direct damage AoE. Damage dealing skills are useful against everyone.
Pretty sure stam detect pots only offer major savagery. So would be a double up if using camo hunter. Asking stam to chose between major sustain buffs or immovability against a spammable with a stun to be able to see the target is a bit rough. I am not saying stam are hard done by. They are having a better time in cyro than mag for the most part.
A purge works on every class. It is not targeted at dks. And every class puts effects on you while fighting them. Snares, cc, status effects and dots. A Purge is never wasted. Ask a templar what class they don't use it against. I guarantee you, they are purging defile from stamcros every few seconds.
Gap closers work on everyone. Fast and slow and usually come with another effect. Stun, interrupt, off balance, 5% extra damage. What class or spec would it be wasted against?
Edited by auz on August 24, 2021 12:10AM1 -
gamma71✭✭✭✭Coming from one of the biggest pvp guilds on gh the amount of time we spend on trying to counter nb bombers is crazy are vc is one constant spam of throw caltrops down use detect pots spread out I mean we're not talking about any other class like that. And this might be the straw that broke the camel's back.
[snip]
[Edit for Baiting.]Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on August 25, 2021 12:32AM3 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »Purge removes all dots and effects. Not just dks. Defile effects everyone's healing. Gap closers are a movement tool against every class. That is good design. Buy this potion and you will be able to see invisible nightblades for 13 secs out of 47 is not.universal_wrath wrote: »
Nightblade is a very popular if not the most popular class on my server.
These tools will be mandatory after the patch, which is the wrong direction to go in my opinion.
It might even indirectly cause this change to be a huge nerf for nightblades because of everyone using some sort of detect tool.
Making the game more skill-based seems to be a very good direction. So yes, if players step up their gameplay and start effectively using such skills to pull NBs out of cloak it would hinder the NBs just as any other counter does. That is good for the game. Those that adapt improve. Those that do not fall behind.
Let me use this one skill/pot that only works against 1 class out of 6, ehile i have other skills that work on all classes except for 1. It would make sense to use detect stuff if invisibility was accessable to other classes, but giving a specail treatment for one classes is not good. While warden and necros are making a fuss for bring op, nb(stablade especially) is like the elephent in the room.
Remember that the detect potions and skills also have other effects.
Detection is only one of the three effects on a potion. And all the detection skills provide passive effects for either offence or defence depending on your choice. At minimum a major buff plus some other effect. So these all have a universal benefit as well.
Sure, you only get full value of the potion or skill against a a nightblade. But you are still getting a good chunk of value the rest of the time.
Kinda similar to how other skills have effectiveness vary based on the context. For example purge is strong against a dot or debuff build, but only marginally effective against other builds, such as say the popular 2h burst combo of warden/necro. Or a gap closer offers full value against builds that try to run or kite but is of minimal benefit against an in your face build.
Alternatively, you could use a direct damage AoE. Damage dealing skills are useful against everyone.
Pretty sure stam detect pots only offer major savagery. So would be a double up if using camo hunter. Asking stam to chose between major sustain buffs or immovability against a spammable with a stun to be able to see the target is a bit rough. I am not saying stam are hard done by. They are having a better time in cyro than mag for the most part.
A purge works on every class. It is not targeted at dks. And every class puts effects on you while fighting them. Snares, cc, status effects and dots. A Purge is never wasted. Ask a templar what class they don't use it against. I guarantee you, they are purging defile from stamcros every few seconds.
Gap closers work on everyone. Fast and slow and usually come with another effect. Stun, interrupt, off balance, 5% extra damage. What class or spec would it be wasted against?
Yes purge and gap closers work against every class. But they are contextually better in some scenarios. And you don’t get full value in others.
For example, gap closers generally do less damage and cost more than a spammable because they have the extra effect of moving you. This is part of their power budget. So if you use a gap closer when you are already right next to someone that part is wasted. So you are not getting full value from the skill in that scenario.
So yes it has universal use but only in a certain circumstance (when you are further away) are you getting full value.
What I am saying is that detection skills are not dissimilar.
You say purge and gap closers work against everyone.
Likewise, one could argue that a skill like inner light is also useful against everyone (when used on a mag build), as it always provides major prophecy, extra max mag and a bit of mag recovery.
This is not targeted at just nightblades.
Similarly hunter, flare and potions all have universal benefits.
It’s just in certain situations, being against nightblades, they have an additional benefit of detection.
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universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭Genuinely asking here:
There is a poll in the pvp section that ranks magblade last/hardest/worst (among forum members, I realize its not a perfect poll) magic class to use in pvp.
If cloak is so broken/OP, how is it that magblade ranks last? I would love to hear what experienced players think.
What are this poll based on? Survivability wise, magblade is top notch, damage wise not so much. Maybe it was ranked behimd because it does not have enough fire power to kill. Anyone would agree to how stamblade and magblade vary in power so much you would think they completely different classes.0 -
Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭After it went live I started fighting in Cyrodiil and found myself revealing a lot of Nightblades than usual. Never had any spontaneously combust as I had hoped, but the Magelight buff has turned out to be insanely good! The half a second reveal + larger radius has made the ability even more effective at denying cloak around the user, and the radius especially has made it more reliable at breaking fleeing Nightblades out of cloak since it can get them at just a little outside melee range for a magDK.PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK1 -
Jameson18✭✭✭✭✭After it went live I started fighting in Cyrodiil and found myself revealing a lot of Nightblades than usual. Never had any spontaneously combust as I had hoped, but the Magelight buff has turned out to be insanely good! The half a second reveal + larger radius has made the ability even more effective at denying cloak around the user, and the radius especially has made it more reliable at breaking fleeing Nightblades out of cloak since it can get them at just a little outside melee range for a magDK.
I look forward to this challenge on my NBs. Not looking forward to seeing that "spontaneous combustion" though lol.0
