Mech acuity and TTK

DrSlaughtr

I main NB. We need to admit MA is causing a lot of issues.

Back when the proc meta was unleashed MA went from having a chance to proc to having a guaranteed proc every 16 seconds.

At that time it was only used by bombers.

Now we're in a bomber renascence. There are more than there ever have been because it's never been easier to do it. It's not a coincidence that during and after MYM the forum was filled with angry posts about NBs. Fast forward and seemingly the changes to increase TTK seem directly linked to that anger.

The issue now is that MA is becoming BIS for nearly every class in PVP. I know sorcs, wardens, templars, and necros that are running it and destroying people left and right.

You can get up to 10 attacks in those 5 seconds if you're good at LA weaving. On top of that, during cooldown you're still critting at your usual rate. There's no drawback if you stack crit damage.

When a set goes from being niche for one build of one class to getting used across multiple classes to great effect, we have to be honest about it's power level, even if we use it ourselves.

Here are three suggestions.

1: Decrease the proc time from 5 to 3 seconds with the same cooldown. It would still be very strong, but would fall out of favor for the button mashers.

2: Keep it at 5 seconds but increase the cooldown to 30 seconds. It would be much less desirable for general use but still useful for those who sacrifice in other areas to fully exploit the set.

3: keep the proc time and cooldown the same but PREVENT critting outside the proc. Under the current spec, this would be the equivalent of 23% crit (5 / 21). Obviously that's low BUT you would still have the benefit of saving your biggest hits for when it procs and given the on screen animation it's hard to miss.

Honestly you could remove the set entirely and I'd be okay with it.

ArctosCethlenn

mikey_reach wrote: »

Crazy how the set has been the same for years and now all the sudden its op. The only reason why acuity is the way it is now is because of 3 things, the nerf to crit chance, the nerf to impen, and the accessibility of crit damage modifiers. All these things combined cause acuity’s effectiveness to skyrocket in pvp i mean literally any class can use it very well hell my magplar and stamsorc use the same setup. Acuity,balorgh and dragurkin and best part is that acuity buffs dragurkin since it benefits from crit damage

The set was buffed a year ago (august 2020) to a guaranteed (100%) proc on direct damage, from 15%. That's when it started making its way back into pvp builds.

WrathOfInnos

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

Crazy how the set has been the same for years and now all the sudden its op. The only reason why acuity is the way it is now is because of 3 things, the nerf to crit chance, the nerf to impen, and the accessibility of crit damage modifiers. All these things combined cause acuity’s effectiveness to skyrocket in pvp i mean literally any class can use it very well hell my magplar and stamsorc use the same setup. Acuity,balorgh and dragurkin and best part is that acuity buffs dragurkin since it benefits from crit damage

The set was buffed a year ago (august 2020) to a guaranteed (100%) proc on direct damage, from 15%. That's when it started making its way back into pvp builds.

It's no coincidence that a crit set started performing better the same patch many players decided it wasn't worth using Impen anymore. Impen was reduced from 258 to 172 in May 2020, and from 172 to 127 in August 2020.

In addition to that change, Malacath's Band of Brutality + proc sets were dominating PVP. This was a build that had 0% chance to crit, and really pushed players away from using Impen. In most fights, the trait did literally nothing. Similar story with transmutation, and other forms of crit resist.

I don't believe the minor changes to Acuity had much effect at all, more that players changed their builds to combat a bigger threat (Malacath) and became vulnerable to crit. It will probably stay strong until they decide to build some crit resistance again. That doesn't mean that the set needs to be changed.

Treeshka

This set is not the problem. The problem is people stacking critical damage through passives and champion points. People also complain about high burst as i can see in the forums. It is just five seconds, you can dodge a few times, block try and to apply crowd control in this window or you can use the set as well.

But i accept this set is overpowered right now but not because of the set itself, because of the critical damage you can stack through everything you have, and currently there is not much thing to mitigate this critical damage. Maybe they should buff Impenetrable trait once again, or adjust the battle spirit to reduce critical damage or increase critical resistance.

Kaysha

Treeshka wrote: »

This set is not the problem. The problem is people stacking critical damage through passives and champion points. People also complain about high burst as i can see in the forums. It is just five seconds, you can dodge a few times, block try and to apply crowd control in this window or you can use the set as well.

But i accept this set is overpowered right now but not because of the set itself, because of the critical damage you can stack through everything you have, and currently there is not much thing to mitigate this critical damage. Maybe they should buff Impenetrable trait once again, or adjust the battle spirit to reduce critical damage or increase critical resistance.

You have to invest to stack crit damage. You should also have to invest to stack crit resist. Crit resist through battle spirit is surely not the right way. Everyone already has a big base crit resistance.

DrSlaughtr

Treeshka wrote: »

This set is not the problem. The problem is people stacking critical damage through passives and champion points. People also complain about high burst as i can see in the forums. It is just five seconds, you can dodge a few times, block try and to apply crowd control in this window or you can use the set as well.

But i accept this set is overpowered right now but not because of the set itself, because of the critical damage you can stack through everything you have, and currently there is not much thing to mitigate this critical damage. Maybe they should buff Impenetrable trait once again, or adjust the battle spirit to reduce critical damage or increase critical resistance.

They did give more avenues to buff crit damage but they also nerf hammered crit %. This is why MA is causing problems. It circumvents the calculated balance.

It's going to get even worse because on PTS medium armor crit % is getting nerfed even more BUT crit damage is getting buffed. What's the logical set for them to wear? MA.

ArctosCethlenn

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I don't believe the minor changes to Acuity had much effect at all, more that players changed their builds to combat a bigger threat (Malacath) and became vulnerable to crit. It will probably stay strong until they decide to build some crit resistance again. That doesn't mean that the set needs to be changed.

The set going from "you have a 15% chance when you deal direct damage to gain unerring mechanical vision for 5 seconds, granting you 100% Critical Strike chance." to "When you deal direct damage to gain unerring mechanical vision for 5 seconds, granting you 100% Critical Strike chance." is absolutely a big change. 15% can't be predicted and relied on, 100% can be. By multiple players at once. The set is what enables stacking crit damage as a viable option in pvp. Burst is what matters, and acuity takes what is normally a random burst mechanic (critical hits) and completely removes that randomness, putting it under the control of the player.

Malacath hasn't been a problem in months, and people haven't been building to counter it for months. Acuity is actively a problem. Mech + VD is one of the most common setups in cyrodiil now. VD is a winmore set, once you're getting kills it gets you more. Mech is the set that gives you the perfectly controlled burst to get those initial kills and shines in aoe scenarios, because guaranteeing that your eye of the storm, proxy + tether, or other burst aoe skills will crit on everyone beats any other option in game.

katorga

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

Crazy how the set has been the same for years and now all the sudden its op. The only reason why acuity is the way it is now is because of 3 things, the nerf to crit chance, the nerf to impen, and the accessibility of crit damage modifiers. All these things combined cause acuity’s effectiveness to skyrocket in pvp i mean literally any class can use it very well hell my magplar and stamsorc use the same setup. Acuity,balorgh and dragurkin and best part is that acuity buffs dragurkin since it benefits from crit damage

The set was buffed a year ago (august 2020) to a guaranteed (100%) proc on direct damage, from 15%. That's when it started making its way back into pvp builds.

Going to guaranteed (100%) proc was a bad design decision all the way around, not just for MA.

Remember those vague assurances that it would improve performance?

kojou

I would rather they buffed impenetrable, or added other resistances to critical damage than nerf Mechanical Acuity, but that is just me...

Thraben

Maybe it's time to integrate both Acuity's and Vicious Death's mechanics into the passives of the nightblades, so that one can balance things directly.

jaws343

Thraben wrote: »

Nothing, because crit chance and its reduction don't play a role as long as Acuity works like this. Like said before, Impen should reduce incoming crit damage. not crit chance.

Impen does reduce crit damage.

neferpitou73

Treeshka wrote: »

This set is not the problem. The problem is people stacking critical damage through passives and champion points. People also complain about high burst as i can see in the forums. It is just five seconds, you can dodge a few times, block try and to apply crowd control in this window or you can use the set as well.

But i accept this set is overpowered right now but not because of the set itself, because of the critical damage you can stack through everything you have, and currently there is not much thing to mitigate this critical damage. Maybe they should buff Impenetrable trait once again, or adjust the battle spirit to reduce critical damage or increase critical resistance.

I'm inclined to agree with this. I think the solution is to just increase base crit resist. Crit should be a viable playstyle but with the increased base weapon and spell damage and stacking crit multipliers it is the best playstyle right now bar none. I'm reluctant to nerf mech acuity but one can't deny it's also party of the problem.

Kaysha wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

This set is not the problem. The problem is people stacking critical damage through passives and champion points. People also complain about high burst as i can see in the forums. It is just five seconds, you can dodge a few times, block try and to apply crowd control in this window or you can use the set as well.

But i accept this set is overpowered right now but not because of the set itself, because of the critical damage you can stack through everything you have, and currently there is not much thing to mitigate this critical damage. Maybe they should buff Impenetrable trait once again, or adjust the battle spirit to reduce critical damage or increase critical resistance.

You have to invest to stack crit damage. You should also have to invest to stack crit resist. Crit resist through battle spirit is surely not the right way. Everyone already has a big base crit resistance.

The problem is lack of avenues to invest in crit resist. To my knowledge using every source of crit resist in the game the crit damage multiplier is still around 30-40% (though I haven't personally calculated that). In addition it is much easier to stack crit damage multipliers than it is to stack crit resist (at least from a group perspective).

Another issue is the fact that crit damage increases at an insane rate compared to other sources of damage. That extra 1000 spell and weapon damage they added means much more to crit damage builds than it does to non-crit builds due to all the insane multipliers crit damage gets.

jecks33

another good pve set will be destroyed because of pvp... yuppyyyyyyyyyyy

ArctosCethlenn

jecks33 wrote: »

another good pve set will be destroyed because of pvp... yuppyyyyyyyyyyy

Nobody cares. Nobody cares if a dragonslayer goes from doing 92.8k dps to 92k dps because overall that means nothing to anyone else's enjoyment of the game. Success in pve doesn't prevent other players from succeeding in pve.

But an overpowered set in pvp means you either have to jump on the same boat and run that set or you're artificially handicapping yourself in a competitive environment.

WrathOfInnos

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

another good pve set will be destroyed because of pvp... yuppyyyyyyyyyyy

Nobody cares. Nobody cares if a dragonslayer goes from doing 92.8k dps to 92k dps because overall that means nothing to anyone else's enjoyment of the game. Success in pve doesn't prevent other players from succeeding in pve.

But an overpowered set in pvp means you either have to jump on the same boat and run that set or you're artificially handicapping yourself in a competitive environment.

That’s a very narrow view. Sure the top few groups will always adapt and succeed. What about the players that were doing 50.1k DPS on an encounter that requires 50k to clear. Players becoming weaker over time is a significant issue in this game, and it’s driven many away.

It’s easy to argue the opposite as well. In PvP your opponents get the same buffs and nerfs to gear, so balance only changes if you choose to use something off-meta (artificially handicapping yourself). In PvE enemies stay the same strength regardless, so gear nerfs have more impact.

ArctosCethlenn

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

That’s a very narrow view. Sure the top few groups will always adapt and succeed. What about the players that were doing 50.1k DPS on an encounter that requires 50k to clear. Players becoming weaker over time is a significant issue in this game, and it’s driven many away.

It’s easy to argue the opposite as well. In PvP your opponents get the same buffs and nerfs to gear, so balance only changes if you choose to use something off-meta (artificially handicapping yourself). In PvE enemies stay the same strength regardless, so gear nerfs have more impact.

No, because again, a pver succeeding in pve does not prevent another pver from also succeeding. Ever. Since every win in pvp means you killed another player, balance matters more. On a long trial fight, something like MA *isn't* crazy overpowered, because the mobs have millions of health and take several minutes to kill, so over the length of the fight it works out to only a slight boost. If it were reverted to 15% chance to proc, it would be active for about the same portion of the fight and overall any dragonslayer using it would see very little change.

In pvp where the average enemy has 30-35k health, MA is far and away the strongest set in game, because burst is all that matters for getting kills. Pvp isn't about wearing down a high health target over 2-3 minutes, it's currently about popping someone in 2 seconds while your procs all align. If it were reverted to 15% chance to proc players would no longer be able to control its burst window, and they certainly would no longer be able to have multiple members of a raid all trigger it and aoe dump at once.

DrSlaughtr

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

jecks33 wrote: »

another good pve set will be destroyed because of pvp... yuppyyyyyyyyyyy

Nobody cares. Nobody cares if a dragonslayer goes from doing 92.8k dps to 92k dps because overall that means nothing to anyone else's enjoyment of the game. Success in pve doesn't prevent other players from succeeding in pve.

But an overpowered set in pvp means you either have to jump on the same boat and run that set or you're artificially handicapping yourself in a competitive environment.

That’s a very narrow view. Sure the top few groups will always adapt and succeed. What about the players that were doing 50.1k DPS on an encounter that requires 50k to clear. Players becoming weaker over time is a significant issue in this game, and it’s driven many away.

It’s easy to argue the opposite as well. In PvP your opponents get the same buffs and nerfs to gear, so balance only changes if you choose to use something off-meta (artificially handicapping yourself). In PvE enemies stay the same strength regardless, so gear nerfs have more impact.

It's actually the opposite. It's very rare for zos to make pve enemies harder. They tend to stay the same even as players get more and more powerful.

vMOL is pretty much the same dungeon that was cleared with 30k DPS back in the day. Why do you want harder hitters? Because it becomes immensely easier.

Point being, if a set becomes a little less effective against those enemies, changing your rotation and adapting to a new set is easy because the enemies stay the same.

Mechanical Aquity isn't turning anyone into a PVE superman. In PVE it's better to have constant higher chance to crit with higher base damage. You can't hold back your stronger attacks for the proc without killing your overall damage.

Can you run it? Yes but it's a build choice for flavor, not a requirement.

In PVP you can time your burst to match MA. You don't need to do constant damage. You can just lie in wait, hold block, hide behind a rock, or just LA. Then when you go blue drop your ultimate and execute. Watch them drop.

This is becoming a massive issue. It was too strong when it was just bombers when they were like 10% of the pop. Now bombers are well over 25% of the pop AND now other players see that it let's them cheese the crit % nerf to take advantage of the buffed crit damage.

It will get to be even worse with this update because you can run all medium to get the crit damage bonus and not care that your crit% will be like 20%. It doesn't matter because all you have to do is wait.

We're also getting to the point where instead of helping light armor mag toons with survivability they're going to let mag players go medium. Proxy will now proc off weapon damage. It's going to be a long 3 months. I can't wait to say I told you so when the power hungry players realize there are consequences to this update.

WrathOfInnos

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

That’s a very narrow view. Sure the top few groups will always adapt and succeed. What about the players that were doing 50.1k DPS on an encounter that requires 50k to clear. Players becoming weaker over time is a significant issue in this game, and it’s driven many away.

It’s easy to argue the opposite as well. In PvP your opponents get the same buffs and nerfs to gear, so balance only changes if you choose to use something off-meta (artificially handicapping yourself). In PvE enemies stay the same strength regardless, so gear nerfs have more impact.

No, because again, a pver succeeding in pve does not prevent another pver from also succeeding. Ever. Since every win in pvp means you killed another player, balance matters more. On a long trial fight, something like MA *isn't* crazy overpowered, because the mobs have millions of health and take several minutes to kill, so over the length of the fight it works out to only a slight boost. If it were reverted to 15% chance to proc, it would be active for about the same portion of the fight and overall any dragonslayer using it would see very little change.

In pvp where the average enemy has 30-35k health, MA is far and away the strongest set in game, because burst is all that matters for getting kills. Pvp isn't about wearing down a high health target over 2-3 minutes, it's currently about popping someone in 2 seconds while your procs all align. If it were reverted to 15% chance to proc players would no longer be able to control its burst window, and they certainly would no longer be able to have multiple members of a raid all trigger it and aoe dump at once.

Right, succeeding in PVE enables others to succeed too. That’s why PVE nerf threads are rare, even if it’s not their class on the chopping block, players want their friends to be strong and have fun.

I’m not saying things should be imbalanced in PVP. Set balance is important because it allows gear options and promotes build diversity. I am saying that on an absolute level two players fighting each other in Cyro with a weak Acuity set or a strong Acuity set are on equal ground.

In PVE, a functional or useless Acuity set is going to make a difference for groups that struggle with encounters like the Ash Titan in vRG. Boss health is not reduced when sets are nerfed.

DrSlaughtr

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In PVE, a functional or useless Acuity set is going to make a difference for groups that struggle with encounters like the Ash Titan in vRG. Boss health is not reduced when sets are nerfed.

You just run another set.

MA gives you 5 seconds of guaranteed crit out of 21. Your crit % is likely very low so for those 16 seconds of your rotation you're missing damage.

Whereas if you run mother's with a damage set you can get your crit up to 60% or higher. Now your full rotation can crit at a much higher rate and you don't have to hold back till you turn blue to drop your stronger attacks.

MA in PVE is far from best in slot. It's a fun set. Unfortunately it's causing pvp to nose dive into a block of the stinkiest cheese you can imagine.

WrathOfInnos

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In PVE, a functional or useless Acuity set is going to make a difference for groups that struggle with encounters like the Ash Titan in vRG. Boss health is not reduced when sets are nerfed.

You just run another set.

MA gives you 5 seconds of guaranteed crit out of 21. Your crit % is likely very low so for those 16 seconds of your rotation you're missing damage.

Whereas if you run mother's with a damage set you can get your crit up to 60% or higher. Now your full rotation can crit at a much higher rate and you don't have to hold back till you turn blue to drop your stronger attacks.

MA in PVE is far from best in slot. It's a fun set. Unfortunately it's causing pvp to nose dive into a block of the stinkiest cheese you can imagine.

If that were true, the answer would be to fix it specifically in PVP. Crit resistance would be a good method. There is a lot of burst this patch, but Acuity is a small part of that. Tbh it’s already been addressed with the Proxy Det nerf, Battle Spirit mitigation changes and skills like Revealing Flare. If you can survive the 5s burst window of an Acuity build they’re going to have a difficult time winning the fight.

Killing Acuity wouldn’t even help in PVP, everyone would just move on to the next burst set (likely Hrothgars). It would permanently remove a fun niche build in PVE, which is meta for a couple of encounters, but certainly not overpowered.

Aldoss

TheEndBringer wrote: »

MA gives you 5 seconds of guaranteed crit out of 21. Your crit % is likely very low so for those 16 seconds of your rotation you're missing damage.

Whereas if you run mother's with a damage set you can get your crit up to 60% or higher. Now your full rotation can crit at a much higher rate and you don't have to hold back till you turn blue to drop your stronger attacks.

I'm quoting here because there's two threads discussing the same topic.

This quote is literally the sacrifice I'm trying to describe in the other thread and you keep brushing it off. I've been popped by hundreds of players in less than 3-5 seconds and not because they were using MA. I've also survived several MA dumps before and it honestly doesn't feel like a fair fight once that first window is gone. They might get another MA burst in 16 seconds, but it's nothing without their ult.

divnyi

I don't agree with adding more crit resistance to players. When was the last time you had issues with crits outside of cloak or acuity?

Nobody builds for crits if that's not acuity or snipeblade gank. Nerfing the whole gigantic mechanic across the board to nerf just one problematic set is not a good solution.

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

I don't agree with adding more crit resistance to players. When was the last time you had issues with crits outside of cloak or acuity?

Nobody builds for crits if that's not acuity or snipeblade gank. Nerfing the whole gigantic mechanic across the board to nerf just one problematic set is not a good solution.

As many people have pointed out, this isn't true. It's becoming bis for all DDs and will become more so with the changes to medium on PTS.

DrSlaughtr

Aldoss wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

MA gives you 5 seconds of guaranteed crit out of 21. Your crit % is likely very low so for those 16 seconds of your rotation you're missing damage.

Whereas if you run mother's with a damage set you can get your crit up to 60% or higher. Now your full rotation can crit at a much higher rate and you don't have to hold back till you turn blue to drop your stronger attacks.

I'm quoting here because there's two threads discussing the same topic.

This quote is literally the sacrifice I'm trying to describe in the other thread and you keep brushing it off. I've been popped by hundreds of players in less than 3-5 seconds and not because they were using MA. I've also survived several MA dumps before and it honestly doesn't feel like a fair fight once that first window is gone. They might get another MA burst in 16 seconds, but it's nothing without their ult.

I have an ultimate after 5 seconds shooting you or a guard with a decisive bow after hitting incap. By 16 seconds I'm over 130.

How do you think bombers can reload so fast?

There's no drawback. You can build a pure damage and pen build that on its on will do great numbers. The drawback is your crit % will suffer as ZOS designed it. But that matter because you get MA. Then you unload.

You get the best of all three. Great damage. Great pen. Guaranteed 5 seconds of crit that you know when to expect. It's not balanced.

Thrain

you have to sacrifice your build to use a whole 5 piece set for a 5 second long bursty time window and then you have literally nothing from it during the long cooldown...that sounds op?
thats like 3 skills and 2-3 light attacks that will be a guaranteed crit...
its way less reliable than sets like stuhns favor, clever alchemist, deadly strike, and so on
and with the upcoming battle spirit change it will be even less reliable, 5 seconds for burst wont be enough
you should rather call for a buff for this set

for most of the time the real problem is not ttk itself or "op sets", its people dont react properly in some situations
if you see someone getting blue, almost like a sorc and you just stand still like a dps dummy ofc it will look op to you
but if you see them getting blue and you react with some dodgeroles or holding block for that 5 seconds with your heals up
theres no way he can kill you then

neferpitou73

divnyi wrote: »

I don't agree with adding more crit resistance to players. When was the last time you had issues with crits outside of cloak or acuity?

Nobody builds for crits if that's not acuity or snipeblade gank. Nerfing the whole gigantic mechanic across the board to nerf just one problematic set is not a good solution.

No-proc crit damage NBs were best in slot for ball groups.