Major Protection on Revealing Flare. What?!

Xeniph

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

I'm not sure what all the hub-bub is about.

Sure the skill will give a bit of mitigation now, I'd wager most folks won't even get 5% out of it in practical terms. The skill is still useless in terms of stealth gameplay countering.

As a ganker and a bomber, these changes seem fine to me. The guy who is getting 5%+ mitigation from it will still die in a bomb/gank and the folks getting less than 5% are still going to be a tough fight because they are properly geared.

As for the reveal, I have to laugh everytime I see it used. Due to movement speed I can watch this skill be casted, see the ball and it's trajectory and move out before it even hits the ground. And from a bombing perspective it's a non-issue since I just use Lotus Fan from 22m out and get that decent 10% Vulnerability buff.

I suppose people think bombers are standing on top of them spamming cloak waiting for that explosion for 5-6 seconds. The truth is, most of the time, they spend those 5-6 seconds moving from the position of cover they casted it to get into position. And to top that off you can forgo the Major Sorcery potion in favor of an Immovable and put the ball squarely back into your targets hands on how successful the bomb is.

So I for one am extremely happy to see this change, it's going to give those folks that use it a false sense of security until they either unslot it or run around casting it depleting their resources all the time.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if you hit a stealther with this ability, He either didn't care and ran through it on purpose or it's too late to save you

I think some are worried that this skill in combination with the Battlespirit will once again give us a tank meta.

I so believe this skill needed something, though I'd prefer ZOS do something else to make the skill more versatile because the whole concept of a skill devoted to scouting/detection passively increasing defense is dubious from a military and realism perspective.

As far as what's ZOS is trying to do with Cloak, I'm ok with their intent and willing to test out this stuff. I just am not looking forward to these additional sources of damage mitigation.

From my testing right now, on a non-optimal build TTK is still much lower than last updates tank meta.

I'm getting great ganking results on a 33k resist, 3k crit resist, minor/major protection, 35k health player. This is with a sub optimal build quickly thrown together.

It's looking like all will be fine. So far.

Remember things will change twice in the pts cycle, that's usually where they screw things up, due to knee-jerk reactions.

Edit- And BTW I absolutely loved the Tank meta, it was a great time for build diversity if you ask me. That and I loved dropping 40k+ health tanks like sacks of potatoes

Gamerscape2007

Xeniph wrote: »

From my testing right now, on a non-optimal build TTK is still much lower than last updates tank meta.

I'm getting great ganking results on a 33k resist, 3k crit resist, minor/major protection, 35k health player. This is with a sub optimal build quickly thrown together.

It's looking like all will be fine. So far.

Remember things will change twice in the pts cycle, that's usually where they screw things up, due to knee-jerk reactions.

Edit- And BTW I absolutely loved the Tank meta, it was a great time for build diversity if you ask me. That and I loved dropping 40k+ health tanks like sacks of potatoes

I am gonna try to ignore the smugness of your posts, cause clearly you rather miss the point in favor of tooting your own horn thinking everyone is gonna be impress. Let face it, if you're killing a high health, high resist tank players with ease?, chances are, they're not very good, or not built optimally.

The problem I have with major protection being on flare isn't major protection alone. It's all the other crap you can stack with it. Sure, you can tell me there are diminishing returns, and I won't argue you against that. But what people seems to not understand that damage reduction still stacks, diminishing returns or no.

If you think I'm overblowning this, please consider this. Battlespirit is boosted by 55%. Your base mitigation, is at 10.% Then you have major protection and minor protection. Another 15%. Or 5% and 10%. Guardian spirit, which give you an extra 10%. Buffer the swift, which gives you an extra 10% in pvp. Vampire passive, which gives you a total of 30% mitigation when low health. That already gives you a total of 80% Damage mitigation. Mitigation that you can not penetrate with stuff like sharpened, So you can wear light armor, and be just as tanky as heavy armor. And I haven't even begun to tell you about the armor resistance, the psijic passive that grant a free 30% for using skills like meditation (A high elf passive grant you an extra 5% mitigation when using channels, which meditate is.), the cp passive. Should I even mention blocking? Which will be even more powerful next patch? How about minor maim you can spam with ice staff? How about major and minor evasion? Again, all these things add up, diminishing returns or no.

The amount of ways you can mitigate damage next patch will be asinine, and people like you are blind to it.

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh. strong buffs like this should be reserved for things that you make conscious decision to build for. Something that has some kind of sacrifice or drawback. Like 5pcs set or class unique abilities. Just for comparison, WW ultimate gives 10% dmg reduction (Pack Leader) - So that does not come "cheap" - you need to be in WW form.

Strong buffs like Major Protection should not be by any means acquired by casually slotting a skill. Going back to WW, even when you slot that (ulti slot) you dont get such a strong buff.

I totally understand what they are trying to do. They want to make it so slotting this abilities does not feel like wasting space on your bar when you are not using it. But imho. they overbuffed it. I mean, look at other revealing skills and what they give:

Magelight - Major Prophecy that gives you around 10% more Spell Critical
Expert Hunter - Major Savagery that gives you around 10% more Weapon Critical

10% more critical chance (that you "may" deal, but you need to actually play the game and use skills) vs 10% less dmg taken ? How on earth is that balanced. ?!

That would be balanced if Magelight / Expert Hunter gave you flat 10% dmg done bonus (but would be OP af) or if Revealing Flare gave you 10% less critical dmg taken. That would be consistent.

maxjapank

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

The problem I have with major protection being on flare isn't major protection alone. It's all the other crap you can stack with it. Sure, you can tell me there are diminishing returns, and I won't argue you against that. But what people seems to not understand that damage reduction still stacks, diminishing returns or no.

If you think I'm overblowning this, please consider this. Battlespirit is boosted by 55%. Your base mitigation, is at 10.% Then you have major protection and minor protection. Another 15%. Or 5% and 10%. Guardian spirit, which give you an extra 10%. Buffer the swift, which gives you an extra 10% in pvp. Vampire passive, which gives you a total of 30% mitigation when low health. That already gives you a total of 80% Damage mitigation. Mitigation that you can not penetrate with stuff like sharpened, So you can wear light armor, and be just as tanky as heavy armor. And I haven't even begun to tell you about the armor resistance, the psijic passive that grant a free 30% for using skills like meditation (A high elf passive grant you an extra 5% mitigation when using channels, which meditate is.), the cp passive. Should I even mention blocking? Which will be even more powerful next patch? How about minor maim you can spam with ice staff? How about major and minor evasion? Again, all these things add up, diminishing returns or no.

The amount of ways you can mitigate damage next patch will be asinine, and people like you are blind to it.

I understand the concern about stacking mitigation, but it seems to me that getting Major Protection from a skill that you are going to one-bar is the least of our concerns. It's some of the other stuff you mentioned that stacks outside of a Major or Minor buff. Like Guardian spirit, Vampire, and Psijic. And for some who are concerned about Battlespirit.

Having a Major buff associated with a skill that is one-barred is not such a concern. That one-barred buff is not going to flip the scales on making someone too tanky. It's the other stuff. And most of the other stuff has already been in the game.

alberichtano

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Very extreme passive. Wonder if players will slot this skill for the passive only.

Quite the contrary. I have never used that skill before because it was just too forbidding. With a limit of five skills per bar, wasting one on an expensive skill that is very rarely useful was just useless. Now it actually has a passive use even when not actively needed, which makes sense.

It also makes sense from the perspective of what it is used for - it is a defensive skill used to protect from hidden attackers. These often do outrageous damage, so a defense that mitigates some of that damage seems in line with what the skill is used for.

And don't worry, I am sure that bombers will still slaughter hoards of unwary PCs anyways. ;-)

jrgray93

Stx wrote: »

People are acting like this is crazy but don't understand how % mitigation gets added up and also how precious bar space is. Like, I know 10% MIT for one bar slot sounds great but it's really not.

maxjapank wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

Drop RAT.

My bars are almost identical, except I have Living Dark instead of RAT, and purifying light instead of reflective. I'll likely drop living dark, since I use a maelstrom back bar for sustain, allowing me to use 3x spell damage glyphs in no CP PVP. I'd drop RAT on your build.

Need the snare removal, and I quite enjoy the speed. I'm sure some will find ways to slot flare. But it isn't always easy to find room. Templars not having major sorcery is tough. You either depend on spell pots or you slot entropy. I like to run spell/detection pots and get my major prophecy from Reflective. So I guess I could give up Reflective and run spell/crit pots instead and put flare on the front bar. But I also like the 40% snare from Reflective and though a weak dot, it still does dmg. And besides, if inner beast stays the same, I'd prob run that.

There are choices to be made and I just don't think running Flare is something everyone will do. But if it doesn't offer major protection, I guarantee you that no one will use it.

Best wishes on your build though.

All valid stuff, appreciate your input.

DrSlaughtr

alberichtano wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Very extreme passive. Wonder if players will slot this skill for the passive only.

Quite the contrary. I have never used that skill before because it was just too forbidding. With a limit of five skills per bar, wasting one on an expensive skill that is very rarely useful was just useless. Now it actually has a passive use even when not actively needed, which makes sense.

It also makes sense from the perspective of what it is used for - it is a defensive skill used to protect from hidden attackers. These often do outrageous damage, so a defense that mitigates some of that damage seems in line with what the skill is used for.

And don't worry, I am sure that bombers will still slaughter hoards of unwary PCs anyways. ;-)

Everyone has to give up bar slots to counter other players. Everyone. Just because you're a DD doesn't mean you shouldn't have to sacrifice something if you're getting your butt kicked.

On my stamblade I have three skills slotted that I wish I didn't have to, but they're necessary because most players are over 28k health with 25k resistances.

All I hear is how there are too many NBs. Based on that logic slotting some kind of reveal seems prudent. And given that they are buffing mage light and expert hunter's detection abilities to be BETTER than flare, then what's the point? Major Protection is too powerful to be passively added to skill, especially when combined with the other new mitigation sources.

You know, the five other sources that are directly aimed at NBs but will also throw the entire game out of balance.

katorga

TheEndBringer wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Very extreme passive. Wonder if players will slot this skill for the passive only.

Quite the contrary. I have never used that skill before because it was just too forbidding. With a limit of five skills per bar, wasting one on an expensive skill that is very rarely useful was just useless. Now it actually has a passive use even when not actively needed, which makes sense.

It also makes sense from the perspective of what it is used for - it is a defensive skill used to protect from hidden attackers. These often do outrageous damage, so a defense that mitigates some of that damage seems in line with what the skill is used for.

And don't worry, I am sure that bombers will still slaughter hoards of unwary PCs anyways. ;-)

All I hear is how there are too many NBs. Based on that logic slotting some kind of reveal seems prudent. And given that they are buffing mage light and expert hunter's detection abilities to be BETTER than flare, then what's the point? Major Protection is too powerful to be passively added to skill, especially when combined with the other new mitigation sources.

That's the thing, Major Protection is not too powerful any more. Meh. 10% 10%, whittled down further by diminishing returns from being multiplied with the 4-6 other sources of % reduction that every character gets. Major maim on a spammable is significantly more powerful, and game breaking.

DrSlaughtr

katorga wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Very extreme passive. Wonder if players will slot this skill for the passive only.

Quite the contrary. I have never used that skill before because it was just too forbidding. With a limit of five skills per bar, wasting one on an expensive skill that is very rarely useful was just useless. Now it actually has a passive use even when not actively needed, which makes sense.

It also makes sense from the perspective of what it is used for - it is a defensive skill used to protect from hidden attackers. These often do outrageous damage, so a defense that mitigates some of that damage seems in line with what the skill is used for.

And don't worry, I am sure that bombers will still slaughter hoards of unwary PCs anyways. ;-)

All I hear is how there are too many NBs. Based on that logic slotting some kind of reveal seems prudent. And given that they are buffing mage light and expert hunter's detection abilities to be BETTER than flare, then what's the point? Major Protection is too powerful to be passively added to skill, especially when combined with the other new mitigation sources.

That's the thing, Major Protection is not too powerful any more. Meh. 10% 10%, whittled down further by diminishing returns from being multiplied with the 4-6 other sources of % reduction that every character gets. Major maim on a spammable is significantly more powerful, and game breaking.

Diminishing returns only matter for already tanky builds. The issue is making glass cannons tanks for free, and they will benefit the most.

Arguing that protection should be allowed because major maim is a poor argument. Only two skills give it. One is an ultimate and the other is a tank skill that only applies to foes who are gated. The only other way to apply maim is with a few proc sets and a crappy poison that only applies it for 3 or 4 seconds.

None of those are passive. They all require some level of sacrifice in your build, sacrifice much bigger than slotting reveal.

Joy_Division

Xeniph wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

I'm not sure what all the hub-bub is about.

Sure the skill will give a bit of mitigation now, I'd wager most folks won't even get 5% out of it in practical terms. The skill is still useless in terms of stealth gameplay countering.

As a ganker and a bomber, these changes seem fine to me. The guy who is getting 5%+ mitigation from it will still die in a bomb/gank and the folks getting less than 5% are still going to be a tough fight because they are properly geared.

As for the reveal, I have to laugh everytime I see it used. Due to movement speed I can watch this skill be casted, see the ball and it's trajectory and move out before it even hits the ground. And from a bombing perspective it's a non-issue since I just use Lotus Fan from 22m out and get that decent 10% Vulnerability buff.

I suppose people think bombers are standing on top of them spamming cloak waiting for that explosion for 5-6 seconds. The truth is, most of the time, they spend those 5-6 seconds moving from the position of cover they casted it to get into position. And to top that off you can forgo the Major Sorcery potion in favor of an Immovable and put the ball squarely back into your targets hands on how successful the bomb is.

So I for one am extremely happy to see this change, it's going to give those folks that use it a false sense of security until they either unslot it or run around casting it depleting their resources all the time.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if you hit a stealther with this ability, He either didn't care and ran through it on purpose or it's too late to save you

I think some are worried that this skill in combination with the Battlespirit will once again give us a tank meta.

I so believe this skill needed something, though I'd prefer ZOS do something else to make the skill more versatile because the whole concept of a skill devoted to scouting/detection passively increasing defense is dubious from a military and realism perspective.

As far as what's ZOS is trying to do with Cloak, I'm ok with their intent and willing to test out this stuff. I just am not looking forward to these additional sources of damage mitigation.

From my testing right now, on a non-optimal build TTK is still much lower than last updates tank meta.

I'm getting great ganking results on a 33k resist, 3k crit resist, minor/major protection, 35k health player. This is with a sub optimal build quickly thrown together.

It's looking like all will be fine. So far.

Remember things will change twice in the pts cycle, that's usually where they screw things up, due to knee-jerk reactions.

Edit- And BTW I absolutely loved the Tank meta, it was a great time for build diversity if you ask me. That and I loved dropping 40k+ health tanks like sacks of potatoes

Well, I can see that. But for those of us who didn;t play 35K health stamdens or high damage gank specs, that's what prompted some of us to preorder New World.

Xeniph

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

From my testing right now, on a non-optimal build TTK is still much lower than last updates tank meta.

I'm getting great ganking results on a 33k resist, 3k crit resist, minor/major protection, 35k health player. This is with a sub optimal build quickly thrown together.

It's looking like all will be fine. So far.

Remember things will change twice in the pts cycle, that's usually where they screw things up, due to knee-jerk reactions.

Edit- And BTW I absolutely loved the Tank meta, it was a great time for build diversity if you ask me. That and I loved dropping 40k+ health tanks like sacks of potatoes

I am gonna try to ignore the smugness of your posts, cause clearly you rather miss the point in favor of tooting your own horn thinking everyone is gonna be impress. Let face it, if you're killing a high health, high resist tank players with ease?, chances are, they're not very good, or not built optimally.

The problem I have with major protection being on flare isn't major protection alone. It's all the other crap you can stack with it. Sure, you can tell me there are diminishing returns, and I won't argue you against that. But what people seems to not understand that damage reduction still stacks, diminishing returns or no.

If you think I'm overblowning this, please consider this. Battlespirit is boosted by 55%. Your base mitigation, is at 10.% Then you have major protection and minor protection. Another 15%. Or 5% and 10%. Guardian spirit, which give you an extra 10%. Buffer the swift, which gives you an extra 10% in pvp. Vampire passive, which gives you a total of 30% mitigation when low health. That already gives you a total of 80% Damage mitigation. Mitigation that you can not penetrate with stuff like sharpened, So you can wear light armor, and be just as tanky as heavy armor. And I haven't even begun to tell you about the armor resistance, the psijic passive that grant a free 30% for using skills like meditation (A high elf passive grant you an extra 5% mitigation when using channels, which meditate is.), the cp passive. Should I even mention blocking? Which will be even more powerful next patch? How about minor maim you can spam with ice staff? How about major and minor evasion? Again, all these things add up, diminishing returns or no.

The amount of ways you can mitigate damage next patch will be asinine, and people like you are blind to it.

What you seem to dismiss or outright ignore is I geared my "test dummy" second account with the tankiest set-up I can think of with every mitigation available to a player (completely ignoring any sensible bar load out) simply to test the stealth opener as I do every patch.

This includes access to all major/minor buffs, potions, over cap resistances/armor, 3k crit resists and high health and CP slottables (again just mitigation). Basically stats that only perma block tanks go for. Or what I like to consider the worst case scenario.

I then test only the opening combo and if it hits a certain threshold (usually 50-65% health, that gives me a pretty good indication of TTK.

If I can still do 24-30k in the opener on a target like this, especially in a non optimized build, things will be fine. Especially when you consider no ganker in his right mind would gank a fully buffed, ready for a fight target.

DrSlaughtr

Xeniph wrote: »

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

From my testing right now, on a non-optimal build TTK is still much lower than last updates tank meta.

I'm getting great ganking results on a 33k resist, 3k crit resist, minor/major protection, 35k health player. This is with a sub optimal build quickly thrown together.

It's looking like all will be fine. So far.

Remember things will change twice in the pts cycle, that's usually where they screw things up, due to knee-jerk reactions.

Edit- And BTW I absolutely loved the Tank meta, it was a great time for build diversity if you ask me. That and I loved dropping 40k+ health tanks like sacks of potatoes

I am gonna try to ignore the smugness of your posts, cause clearly you rather miss the point in favor of tooting your own horn thinking everyone is gonna be impress. Let face it, if you're killing a high health, high resist tank players with ease?, chances are, they're not very good, or not built optimally.

The problem I have with major protection being on flare isn't major protection alone. It's all the other crap you can stack with it. Sure, you can tell me there are diminishing returns, and I won't argue you against that. But what people seems to not understand that damage reduction still stacks, diminishing returns or no.

If you think I'm overblowning this, please consider this. Battlespirit is boosted by 55%. Your base mitigation, is at 10.% Then you have major protection and minor protection. Another 15%. Or 5% and 10%. Guardian spirit, which give you an extra 10%. Buffer the swift, which gives you an extra 10% in pvp. Vampire passive, which gives you a total of 30% mitigation when low health. That already gives you a total of 80% Damage mitigation. Mitigation that you can not penetrate with stuff like sharpened, So you can wear light armor, and be just as tanky as heavy armor. And I haven't even begun to tell you about the armor resistance, the psijic passive that grant a free 30% for using skills like meditation (A high elf passive grant you an extra 5% mitigation when using channels, which meditate is.), the cp passive. Should I even mention blocking? Which will be even more powerful next patch? How about minor maim you can spam with ice staff? How about major and minor evasion? Again, all these things add up, diminishing returns or no.

The amount of ways you can mitigate damage next patch will be asinine, and people like you are blind to it.

What you seem to dismiss or outright ignore is I geared my "test dummy" second account with the tankiest set-up I can think of with every mitigation available to a player (completely ignoring any sensible bar load out) simply to test the stealth opener as I do every patch.

This includes access to all major/minor buffs, potions, over cap resistances/armor, 3k crit resists and high health and CP slottables (again just mitigation). Basically stats that only perma block tanks go for. Or what I like to consider the worst case scenario.

I then test only the opening combo and if it hits a certain threshold (usually 50-65% health, that gives me a pretty good indication of TTK.

If I can still do 24-30k in the opener on a target like this, especially in a non optimized build, things will be fine. Especially when you consider no ganker in his right mind would gank a fully buffed, ready for a fight target.

idontbelieveyou.gif.

If you're going to make a bold statement like that, that you were hitting upwards of 30k on a fully decked out tank, then you should share the video.

ExistingRug61

katorga wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Very extreme passive. Wonder if players will slot this skill for the passive only.

Quite the contrary. I have never used that skill before because it was just too forbidding. With a limit of five skills per bar, wasting one on an expensive skill that is very rarely useful was just useless. Now it actually has a passive use even when not actively needed, which makes sense.

It also makes sense from the perspective of what it is used for - it is a defensive skill used to protect from hidden attackers. These often do outrageous damage, so a defense that mitigates some of that damage seems in line with what the skill is used for.

And don't worry, I am sure that bombers will still slaughter hoards of unwary PCs anyways. ;-)

All I hear is how there are too many NBs. Based on that logic slotting some kind of reveal seems prudent. And given that they are buffing mage light and expert hunter's detection abilities to be BETTER than flare, then what's the point? Major Protection is too powerful to be passively added to skill, especially when combined with the other new mitigation sources.

That's the thing, Major Protection is not too powerful any more. Meh. 10% 10%, whittled down further by diminishing returns from being multiplied with the 4-6 other sources of % reduction that every character gets. Major maim on a spammable is significantly more powerful, and game breaking.

Major maim and major protection have exactly the same effect on damage. They both reduce it multiplicatively by 10%.

The only differences are that major maim is much harder to source, can be purged, and only applies to damage from the source it is applied to.

Also, all this talk of diminishing returns isn’t quite reality either- it only looks like diminishing returns when you look at the effect adding another mitigation has on your absolute mitigation change. What really matters is the relative change, and this will be the stated percentage regardless of your other mitigation sources.

Ie:
No matter how much mitigation you already have, adding major protection (or major maim to the opponent) will mean you take 10% less damage relative to the damage you would have taken if you didn’t have it.

Xeniph

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

From my testing right now, on a non-optimal build TTK is still much lower than last updates tank meta.

I'm getting great ganking results on a 33k resist, 3k crit resist, minor/major protection, 35k health player. This is with a sub optimal build quickly thrown together.

It's looking like all will be fine. So far.

Remember things will change twice in the pts cycle, that's usually where they screw things up, due to knee-jerk reactions.

Edit- And BTW I absolutely loved the Tank meta, it was a great time for build diversity if you ask me. That and I loved dropping 40k+ health tanks like sacks of potatoes

I am gonna try to ignore the smugness of your posts, cause clearly you rather miss the point in favor of tooting your own horn thinking everyone is gonna be impress. Let face it, if you're killing a high health, high resist tank players with ease?, chances are, they're not very good, or not built optimally.

The problem I have with major protection being on flare isn't major protection alone. It's all the other crap you can stack with it. Sure, you can tell me there are diminishing returns, and I won't argue you against that. But what people seems to not understand that damage reduction still stacks, diminishing returns or no.

If you think I'm overblowning this, please consider this. Battlespirit is boosted by 55%. Your base mitigation, is at 10.% Then you have major protection and minor protection. Another 15%. Or 5% and 10%. Guardian spirit, which give you an extra 10%. Buffer the swift, which gives you an extra 10% in pvp. Vampire passive, which gives you a total of 30% mitigation when low health. That already gives you a total of 80% Damage mitigation. Mitigation that you can not penetrate with stuff like sharpened, So you can wear light armor, and be just as tanky as heavy armor. And I haven't even begun to tell you about the armor resistance, the psijic passive that grant a free 30% for using skills like meditation (A high elf passive grant you an extra 5% mitigation when using channels, which meditate is.), the cp passive. Should I even mention blocking? Which will be even more powerful next patch? How about minor maim you can spam with ice staff? How about major and minor evasion? Again, all these things add up, diminishing returns or no.

The amount of ways you can mitigate damage next patch will be asinine, and people like you are blind to it.

What you seem to dismiss or outright ignore is I geared my "test dummy" second account with the tankiest set-up I can think of with every mitigation available to a player (completely ignoring any sensible bar load out) simply to test the stealth opener as I do every patch.

This includes access to all major/minor buffs, potions, over cap resistances/armor, 3k crit resists and high health and CP slottables (again just mitigation). Basically stats that only perma block tanks go for. Or what I like to consider the worst case scenario.

I then test only the opening combo and if it hits a certain threshold (usually 50-65% health, that gives me a pretty good indication of TTK.

If I can still do 24-30k in the opener on a target like this, especially in a non optimized build, things will be fine. Especially when you consider no ganker in his right mind would gank a fully buffed, ready for a fight target.

idontbelieveyou.gif.

If you're going to make a bold statement like that, that you were hitting upwards of 30k on a fully decked out tank, then you should share the video.

It's not hard to hit 30k on an opening combo from stealth. You just need to think outside the box.

It's not one ability, it's multiple things hitting at the same time.

DrSlaughtr

Xeniph wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

From my testing right now, on a non-optimal build TTK is still much lower than last updates tank meta.

I'm getting great ganking results on a 33k resist, 3k crit resist, minor/major protection, 35k health player. This is with a sub optimal build quickly thrown together.

It's looking like all will be fine. So far.

Remember things will change twice in the pts cycle, that's usually where they screw things up, due to knee-jerk reactions.

Edit- And BTW I absolutely loved the Tank meta, it was a great time for build diversity if you ask me. That and I loved dropping 40k+ health tanks like sacks of potatoes

I am gonna try to ignore the smugness of your posts, cause clearly you rather miss the point in favor of tooting your own horn thinking everyone is gonna be impress. Let face it, if you're killing a high health, high resist tank players with ease?, chances are, they're not very good, or not built optimally.

The problem I have with major protection being on flare isn't major protection alone. It's all the other crap you can stack with it. Sure, you can tell me there are diminishing returns, and I won't argue you against that. But what people seems to not understand that damage reduction still stacks, diminishing returns or no.

If you think I'm overblowning this, please consider this. Battlespirit is boosted by 55%. Your base mitigation, is at 10.% Then you have major protection and minor protection. Another 15%. Or 5% and 10%. Guardian spirit, which give you an extra 10%. Buffer the swift, which gives you an extra 10% in pvp. Vampire passive, which gives you a total of 30% mitigation when low health. That already gives you a total of 80% Damage mitigation. Mitigation that you can not penetrate with stuff like sharpened, So you can wear light armor, and be just as tanky as heavy armor. And I haven't even begun to tell you about the armor resistance, the psijic passive that grant a free 30% for using skills like meditation (A high elf passive grant you an extra 5% mitigation when using channels, which meditate is.), the cp passive. Should I even mention blocking? Which will be even more powerful next patch? How about minor maim you can spam with ice staff? How about major and minor evasion? Again, all these things add up, diminishing returns or no.

The amount of ways you can mitigate damage next patch will be asinine, and people like you are blind to it.

What you seem to dismiss or outright ignore is I geared my "test dummy" second account with the tankiest set-up I can think of with every mitigation available to a player (completely ignoring any sensible bar load out) simply to test the stealth opener as I do every patch.

This includes access to all major/minor buffs, potions, over cap resistances/armor, 3k crit resists and high health and CP slottables (again just mitigation). Basically stats that only perma block tanks go for. Or what I like to consider the worst case scenario.

I then test only the opening combo and if it hits a certain threshold (usually 50-65% health, that gives me a pretty good indication of TTK.

If I can still do 24-30k in the opener on a target like this, especially in a non optimized build, things will be fine. Especially when you consider no ganker in his right mind would gank a fully buffed, ready for a fight target.

idontbelieveyou.gif.

If you're going to make a bold statement like that, that you were hitting upwards of 30k on a fully decked out tank, then you should share the video.

It's not hard to hit 30k on an opening combo from stealth. You just need to think outside the box.

It's not one ability, it's multiple things hitting at the same time.

Oh I'm aware. I stand by what I said.

exeeter702

TheEndBringer wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Hunter and Mage Light give you buffs you can get from potions. They're there for convenience and you don't run them for reveal.

It's bs to give protection to revealing flare

Which potion increases my max magicka?

If you are talking about mage light, that's a guild passive. Slotting any mage skill gives you mag. Not really sure what this has to do with the conversation.

Anyone talking about mage light is talking about inner light.... people slot inner light, no one slots radiant.

What they said was relevant to the conversation. No one was talking about mages guild passives.

Again what does that have to do with flare? Are we equating a 5% increase in mag to major protection? That's absurd.

The point being that you seemingly were not aware that inner light provides max magicka on its tooltip aside from the mages guild passive. Which was the source of the intial comment you replied to. Their question was directly and facetiously asking which pot provided the same max magicka value that inner light does as a rebuttal to your claim that inner lights benefits are easily sourced via potions (which they are not) to which you replied sighting the mages guild passive.

Gamerscape2007

Xeniph wrote: »

Snip

You wanna know why I completely dismissed your ability to do 30k damage burst? Because It's total bs. You are no where near hitting that amount. I should know, I was a nightblade for 4 years. Nightblade can do a lot of damage, sure. But they don't deal 30k in a burst, cause if that is the case, something is horribly wrong here. But I refuse for a second, to believe that you actually can kill someone for 30k against a 40k health tank with high resistance. I don't. But let me humor you for a bit, Maybe you can achieve 30k burst next patch, But this will only work against a player who doesn't know what they're doing. if you are fighting a semi decent player, They aren't just gonna stand there and let you burst them down. Especially if that semi decent player is a 40k health tank, cause chances are, they are build to deal with builds like yours, and outheal it.

Here is what gonna happen if you try to burst a player who know what they're doing. If you use incap, they are gonna hear it, because of the cast time, and they're going to dodge out of the way in time. Screwing you over your burst. Say if you do manage to hit them, they will A. Break free, dodge to avoid the rest of your burst, and hell to full. Or B. Break free, block, and heal to full, which btw, will be more powerful next patch. So what are you gonna do if your burst fail? Like any other nightblade ganker. Go to stealth, reposition, and try again. Only that, this next patch will make stealth denial more powerful. And lets be frank, A nightblade ganker is nothing without their cloak. But I digress.

You were already asked for proof of this. In fact, why don't you share us your build? I'd like to see if it actually do what you say it can. But I still think it's nonsense because of how bloated the damage mitigation will be for stuff like major protection and minor protection on my swordnboard backbar. No one is gonna use revealing flare like you think they gonna use it for.

DrSlaughtr

exeeter702 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Hunter and Mage Light give you buffs you can get from potions. They're there for convenience and you don't run them for reveal.

It's bs to give protection to revealing flare

Which potion increases my max magicka?

If you are talking about mage light, that's a guild passive. Slotting any mage skill gives you mag. Not really sure what this has to do with the conversation.

Anyone talking about mage light is talking about inner light.... people slot inner light, no one slots radiant.

What they said was relevant to the conversation. No one was talking about mages guild passives.

Again what does that have to do with flare? Are we equating a 5% increase in mag to major protection? That's absurd.

The point being that you seemingly were not aware that inner light provides max magicka on its tooltip aside from the mages guild passive. Which was the source of the intial comment you replied to. Their question was directly and facetiously asking which pot provided the same max magicka value that inner light does as a rebuttal to your claim that inner lights benefits are easily sourced via potions (which they are not) to which you replied sighting the mages guild passive.

Yes as I said I forgot about the max mag increase so there's a gotcha moment. I don't run mag toons often anymore.

It doesn't justify pretending like 5% extra mag to be the same as major protection.

Add 5% extra mag AND Stam to revealing. Doesn't matter to me. I'm all for damage and resources. I'm not for this nonsense that's going on right now.

alberichtano

TheEndBringer wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Very extreme passive. Wonder if players will slot this skill for the passive only.

Quite the contrary. I have never used that skill before because it was just too forbidding. With a limit of five skills per bar, wasting one on an expensive skill that is very rarely useful was just useless. Now it actually has a passive use even when not actively needed, which makes sense.

It also makes sense from the perspective of what it is used for - it is a defensive skill used to protect from hidden attackers. These often do outrageous damage, so a defense that mitigates some of that damage seems in line with what the skill is used for.

And don't worry, I am sure that bombers will still slaughter hoards of unwary PCs anyways. ;-)

Everyone has to give up bar slots to counter other players. Everyone. Just because you're a DD doesn't mean you shouldn't have to sacrifice something if you're getting your butt kicked.

On my stamblade I have three skills slotted that I wish I didn't have to, but they're necessary because most players are over 28k health with 25k resistances.

All I hear is how there are too many NBs. Based on that logic slotting some kind of reveal seems prudent. And given that they are buffing mage light and expert hunter's detection abilities to be BETTER than flare, then what's the point? Major Protection is too powerful to be passively added to skill, especially when combined with the other new mitigation sources.

You know, the five other sources that are directly aimed at NBs but will also throw the entire game out of balance.

I am not a DD, I am a tank. And I am still murdered by bombers and gankers. This extra protection would give me at least a chance to hit back once before I am tasting the grass.

DrSlaughtr

alberichtano wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

alberichtano wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Very extreme passive. Wonder if players will slot this skill for the passive only.

Quite the contrary. I have never used that skill before because it was just too forbidding. With a limit of five skills per bar, wasting one on an expensive skill that is very rarely useful was just useless. Now it actually has a passive use even when not actively needed, which makes sense.

It also makes sense from the perspective of what it is used for - it is a defensive skill used to protect from hidden attackers. These often do outrageous damage, so a defense that mitigates some of that damage seems in line with what the skill is used for.

And don't worry, I am sure that bombers will still slaughter hoards of unwary PCs anyways. ;-)

Everyone has to give up bar slots to counter other players. Everyone. Just because you're a DD doesn't mean you shouldn't have to sacrifice something if you're getting your butt kicked.

On my stamblade I have three skills slotted that I wish I didn't have to, but they're necessary because most players are over 28k health with 25k resistances.

All I hear is how there are too many NBs. Based on that logic slotting some kind of reveal seems prudent. And given that they are buffing mage light and expert hunter's detection abilities to be BETTER than flare, then what's the point? Major Protection is too powerful to be passively added to skill, especially when combined with the other new mitigation sources.

You know, the five other sources that are directly aimed at NBs but will also throw the entire game out of balance.

I am not a DD, I am a tank. And I am still murdered by bombers and gankers. This extra protection would give me at least a chance to hit back once before I am tasting the grass.

No offense but you're doing something wrong then. If you would like help defending yourself message me. I'll gladly help.

Xeniph

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Snip

You wanna know why I completely dismissed your ability to do 30k damage burst? Because It's total bs. You are no where near hitting that amount. I should know, I was a nightblade for 4 years. Nightblade can do a lot of damage, sure. But they don't deal 30k in a burst, cause if that is the case, something is horribly wrong here. But I refuse for a second, to believe that you actually can kill someone for 30k against a 40k health tank with high resistance. I don't. But let me humor you for a bit, Maybe you can achieve 30k burst next patch, But this will only work against a player who doesn't know what they're doing. if you are fighting a semi decent player, They aren't just gonna stand there and let you burst them down. Especially if that semi decent player is a 40k health tank, cause chances are, they are build to deal with builds like yours, and outheal it.

Here is what gonna happen if you try to burst a player who know what they're doing. If you use incap, they are gonna hear it, because of the cast time, and they're going to dodge out of the way in time. Screwing you over your burst. Say if you do manage to hit them, they will A. Break free, dodge to avoid the rest of your burst, and hell to full. Or B. Break free, block, and heal to full, which btw, will be more powerful next patch. So what are you gonna do if your burst fail? Like any other nightblade ganker. Go to stealth, reposition, and try again. Only that, this next patch will make stealth denial more powerful. And lets be frank, A nightblade ganker is nothing without their cloak. But I digress.

You were already asked for proof of this. In fact, why don't you share us your build? I'd like to see if it actually do what you say it can. But I still think it's nonsense because of how bloated the damage mitigation will be for stuff like major protection and minor protection on my swordnboard backbar. No one is gonna use revealing flare like you think they gonna use it for.

1) You act like I haven't been doing this in ESO for over 7 years. I know how players react and whom best to target by this point.

2) I said 24k-30k on the opening combo, this pts, so far. I have no idea where you got 40k+ from (except maybe my reference to the tank meta 2 updates ago)

3) I couldn't care less if you believe me or not. I'm saying my tests show TTK is a bit higher, but it's not the doom and gloom some are claiming.

4) You don't use incap in a gank, it's inefficient and nowhere near max burst potential. You are the second person to assume this gank combo uses incap, It does not.

5) I'm not one of these youtube folks that post their builds. I quite enjoy my unique builds and keep them to myself, thank you.

6) I don't care how anyone uses Flare, as long as they slot it over Evil Hunter or Radiant magelight. Because those are both miles ahead of everything except potions which have a quite low uptime. However, since you asked. How I think flare will be
most commonly used is as a back bar buffer, probably combined with Temporal Guard.