Should there be 8 attributes instead of 3 attributes?

GodKingScormxon

I feel that ESO is to simplified and needs to be reconstructed to an 8 stats system 2 more classes and stack classes for characters to gain more level up rewards and 100 attribute points per level 50 class stacked, along with reintroducing all the old skills, spells, enchantments, weapons, and items from Elder Scrolls 1-5. The game has gone off cannon too much I don't find it enjoyable anymore and will to have a better system put in place along with more options and capabilities for all types of player from lone wolfs to Jack's of all trades with more to own in the game like player owned ships/airships and more. if you agree with me copy my words.

Vevvev

Strongly Disagree

As cool as it'd be to go back to the roots I don't trust the balance team to make it work. Feel like it'd be another Archeage where you get 200+ class options, but due to human nature we'd be drawn to the Most Efficient Tactics Available (M.E.T.A.) and less than 10 of that 200+ options would even be used.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

That may be efficient to some but the current system doesn't work for me but I appreciate your opinion but I still feel like it will happen dispute that. Do you think that they are incredible of animating such things because I believe they can nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it. In fact you can think things into existence it's already happened for me in many different ways from movie, to game in 2013 I wanted an Elder Scrolls MMORPG to exist and we see it now. So all that needs to be done is reintroduce to original elements of the First to Fifth games along with new elements that don't benefits a few people. My homework to all that reads this play the original games and then formulate an opinion after playing them all only then can you understand were I come from.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

If anyone can please give tell my why you agree or disagree thanks.

Ippokrates

Strongly Disagree

This game have enough micromagement, cause sure, there are only 3 attributes but you also need to cope with penetration, few types of dmg, crit chance & dmg, costs of skills & core abilities, mitigation + green three stuff, etc.

Faulgor

Strongly Agree

Yes, I suggested as much 4 years ago: Streamlining ESO

Actually I said so 10 years ago before Skyrim's launch that removing attributes was a terrible idea lol.

Also, as far as comparisons to TES 1-5 go, I really hate Enchanting in ESO. I want to trap souls and bind them to my weapons, Magnus damn it, not scrap some silly generic runes together.

VaranisArano

Strongly Disagree

I have played Skyrim, Oblivion, ESO, and Morrowind, in that order.

I strongly dislike the micromanagement aspect of the 8 attribute system. It really comes from the TES roots in D&D and other pen and paper RPG games, translated into C-RPG mechanics. Look, I like playing D&D, but pen and paper mechanics don't always translate well to a modern video game. Especially when you tie the 8 attributes to the major/minor skill system and the way your attributes only indirectly impacted your main stats, I really hated it.

Skyrim simplified the whole system beautifully. Health, stamina, magicka. Done. Easy to understand. For once, it didn't feel like I was forcing myself to play in certain ways to manipulate my attributes. If I wanted to increase an attribute, I could always increase it on level up. If I wanted to increase a skill, I used that skill a lot without getting locked into increasing a specific attribute.


Aside from just gameplay, I think ESO would end up wildly unbalanced in a multitude of ways. Consider the ways that Morrowind and Oblivion both allowed for min-maxing your attribute gains. Lots of MMO players min-max. That sort of gameplay would be de rigeur in ESO too.

One thing I particularly remember from Oblivion was "playing against the majors" wherein I used my minor skills to control how and when I leveled up so I could get those sweet +5 modifiers for my attributes. For one, this did not make for entertaining gameplay. More importantly, it let me get very, very powerful for my level, especially when abusing spellcrafting. Think of it as the equivalent of a level 10 player in gold gear fighting a duel with all the major benefits of Battlespirit.

Even if ESO didn't adopt the system from Morrowind and Oblivion wholesale, we'd still wind up with similar problems. If it was the meta to beeline straight to strength and endurance for warriors or willpower/intelligence for mages, many players would.

Then let's think about this - practically.

A. A typical melee/bow Stam player right now with nearly every attribute in stamina needs: strength, agility, speed, endurance, willpower (because they need fatigue to fight effectively)
B. A magicka player right now with nearly every attribute in magicks needs: Intelligence, willpower
C. A tank needs endurance, strength, agility, willpower,

You see there's maybe a small problem with build balance?

What about Personality? Hmm, mercantile, speechcraft, and illusion are it's skills? Yeah, that's pretty much useless in current ESO - no one but roleplayers is going to prioritize this over the combat skills.

And lastly, Luck? Uh, depending on how ESO decided that this influenced your attributes and your RNG, this could easily be THE skill to min-max. I mean, my Craglorn farmer looking for nirncrux needs a maxed luck stat. For that matter, in today's high-crit-chance meta, I can see where Luck would be an important atribute to max out. Players who didn't would literally be less lucky than their opponents. It sucks to lose fights based on Luck, not skill.


When you go around suggesting a new system, it's important to rigorously look at the ways that system falls apart or creates problematic gamer behavior. The 8 attributes were removed and simplified in Skyrim for a reason.

Now, maybe this is just because my experience with Morrowind and Oblivion's leveling was one of micromanagement and constant annoyance at having to change my gameplay so that I leveled up how I wanted to. Still, I can't lie. I hated the 8 attribute system. Skyrim, and now ESO, is a vast improvement.

BXR_Lonestar

Disagree

I disagreed, but not because I don't like the idea. I liked the idea of having multiple attributes to level up in Oblivion that could impact how your character played. I just think that kind of depth in a game like ESO would turn off so many players that it wouldn't be beneficial to the game.

I see ESO as having mass appeal in the way Skyrim did because the 3 attribute system is much easier to manage and understand vs. an 8 attribute system that Oblivion has. With just 3 attributes, its much easier for most players to pick up the game and just play it without having to do much thinking or research into optimal stats for a certain kind of player, and it is more intuitive (Magic user ---> max magika; martial weapons --> max stamina; tank --> max health, etc.).

And also consider how much of a problem it is right now for players underperforming in random dungeon/trial groups because they already don't understand how to build a good build with the 3 attribute format. That will be amplified further if you expanded the character builder to require players invest in 8 attributes instead of 3. Overall, that kind of change is going to make the game less accessible and more difficult for the average player, which is just going to make life worse for the casual player.

Red_Feather

I remember when skyrim was released the community criticized it for being dumbed down and streamlined. 10 years later and the game is so heavily modded it's nothing like when it first released. The amount of people who play it modded is massive. They added more depth, new weapons, new systems, new recipes. People want their rpgs to have depth. How can ZoS not see that.

Luke_Flamesword

Disagree

It's completely different to balance MMO and single player game. In single player you have system builded around only one player. In SP you can make stupid builds and still you can be op and complete whole game. In MMO there are completely different goals and wrong build can make that some content will be imposible for you or you will be trashed in PvP. I can imagine all these new players creating "charismatic alchemist" which is useless in PUG dungeon. Even now making good build is too hard for many casual players. I don't even talk about devs strugling for years with balancing game with current "simplicity".

But I will be pleased if I will see Morrowind complexity with skills and attributes in TES VI

VaranisArano

Strongly Disagree

Red_Feather wrote: »

I remember when skyrim was released the community criticized it for being dumbed down and streamlined. 10 years later and the game is so heavily modded it's nothing like when it first released. The amount of people who play it modded is massive. They added more depth, new weapons, new systems, new recipes. People want their rpgs to have depth. How can ZoS not see that.

Sorry, but Morrowind players also complained about Oblivion, which went on to be an enormously popular TES game.

And again, sorry, but the criticisms of Oblivion and Morrowind players didn't do anything to prevent vanilla Skyrim from becoming a wildly successful TES game.

And in the same way, the lamentations of Morrowind and Oblivion players missing their old C-RPG mechanics have not done much at all to stop ESO from becoming a very successful TES MMORPG.

Look, I liked Oblivion and Morrowind well enough, but I think it's time to admit that they don't have a stranglehold on the future of TES RPGs.


Furthermore, I think your analogy of mods is a poor one.

First off, mods are made by a handful of content creators making stuff they want to see in game more or less for free. It's nothing like the sort of actively-produced content for an ongoing MMORPG we get with ESO.

Second, mods let players pick and choose what they want. Survival mods are very popular. Does that mean the TES franschise needs to swing into hard-core survival gameplay for everyone? By no means! Those mods are not representative of what the whole playerbase wants. In contrast, when the Devs add something to ESO, we're all stuck with it. So they need to make sure that it appeals to and is balanced for the majority of their playerbase. The biggest example is One Tamriel, a huge change to the game that was supported by the majority of players then and since.

Unlike mod makers who put in their time for free, with no deadlines, and no need to worry about sales or balancing for more than one player, the ESO Devs simply cannot add everything people want to ESO. They can't. Even if their time and money were unlimited, they are making content for more than one person - not everyone is going to agree. With some things like "more weapon choices," most people like having options, even if the meta is going to be a few choices. With bigger changes, like taking away the attribute system we have now and replacing it with the older Oblivion/Morrowind one, not so much.

(When ZOS did One Tamriel, my SO hated it and quit playing a few updates later. The Devs really cannot please everyone. So when players walk in suggesting massive upheaval in how ESO handles character building and combat, it's worth asking whether or not this really appeals to most players. In the case of One Tamriel, I would say yes, absolutely it was the correct choice. As for 8 attributes, I strongly disagree that it's going to be a popular, well balanced decision.)

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I never used mods in Skyrim I didn't even like that stuff myself and I too complain about oblivion manly because they took out the levitate spell and several of the weapons like spears for example I feel that ESO can hardly even be called an rpg because of how it is and a feel most people like me are afraid of being ridiculed because we want a better attribute system or that we want to have a balance character that doesn't just really on one resource but all of them I am being to feel that I wasn't $1000 on this game money that I can never get back Money that I received from the united state government because of disability and it makes me sad to see how many people not agree with the original way of doing things.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I have already started playing Morrowind again instead of ESO all day like I used to all I do on ESO now is normal writs with my cp characters and that's it.

Red_Feather

ESO is really dumbed down. I just saw that the FF mmorpg is now beating WoW in concurrent players and I decided to try it out. It's such a massive difference from this game. This game is falling apart with every combat update. ESO has no clue what it wants to be from one update to the next. The only consistency is the generic zone formula of every expansion.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I never liked the FF MMORPG and wow because they require you to pay for the subscription to level beyond lvl 20 in wow and I think it was lvl 45 in the FF MMORPG I agree with the fact that ESO is falling a part that is why I'm trying to convince them and the community that the current attribute system is not good for everyone it's just good for a few people and definitely not the people who even made it possible by playing Morrowind, oblivion, and Skyrim. Most players like me just quit the only people who still play ESO that are like me, that grew up to Morrowind, are true fans of the franchise or have spent so much money on the game and quiting it is like tossing $1000s into the trash. The other people are a new generation who don't understand what an MMORPGs is all about so they like the simplified attributes because it's easy for them but to people of my generation this limited 3 attribute system is far harder to work with because we don't just use only one or the other resources we use them all and this game didn't benefit us because of the limited amount of attribute points in it and that is the very reason I started this poll.

Ippokrates

Strongly Disagree

Ok, lets just assume we got SPECIAL and we replace current attributes system. Which give us 64 points for:
Strenght - 1 point = 12 WD?
Perception - penetration 148? Or maybe fraction of crit dmg?
Endurance - stamina or health? 100 each.
Charisma - not applicable.
Intelligence - 12 SD?
Agility - crit or what?
Luck - 0,3 crit chance.

Ultimately instead of few thousands stam/health/max it will give you (assuming min-maxing) few hundreds weapon or spell dmg, or maybe 20% crit chance - first option could be somewhat assimilated but second would certainly destroy the game.

Nah, Skyrim simplicity is great and allows "normies" to enjoy the game instead of sitting with pen & paper. And maybe that is why Skyrim sold 30 mln copies while Morrowind with Oblivion only half of that together (not mentioning countless reeditions XD )

six2fall

Strongly Disagree

Zos cant balance the game as is & you want them to expand attributes to 8. No thanks

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

You people just don't know what your missing the franchise is slower dieing I won't even buy elder scrolls 6 in the first place and second the over simplified mechanics only benefits a small amount of people but I don't really care I will have what I want someday if I can convince those who quit the game to come forward but I one of the few brave enough to express myself. Most players like just give up because the other players ridiculed them just like I'm being ridiculed now maybe not by y'all but by someone out there.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

And yes they can if they can't it's because they won't and giving up on a challenge.

dowkkono

Strongly Disagree

“I have a bad feeling about this.”

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I only bought Skyrim because of oblivion and Morrowind and not because of any other reason I beet the game in 2014 but I won't play it again but I will play Morrowind and oblivion again I already started playing Morrowind a few days ago it's simple and easy to level up the game is by far the best of the franchise and I'm not a normal person I am below the norm I no genius and don't need a pin or paper to do anything in those games it all about the since of accomplishment to me and there is none of that in ESO I just other players who quit the game to play again plus it's not like there is role for hybrid players the attributes are not the only problem in the game but changing them to a less simplified version is best for everyone since it is easy to level in ESO so it would be easy to go with my idea I just want that build a class experience please read my first post and not just the title I like more level rewards does I like higher level caps it's not hard to understand and I only have an IQ of 99 1 point under the Norm and thanks for your time.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

And to be honest I hardly ever get good drops first of all and also the prices to by things like jewelry upgrade materials is about 400k to upgrade all the way to gold.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

That's why luck is important. To lower the cost of things I have never looted gold gear or items like perfect roe or the upgrade material you need for the experience potions the one people charge a million gold for or more.

amm7sb14_ESO

Maybe Agree

Vevvev wrote: »

As cool as it'd be to go back to the roots I don't trust the balance team to make it work. Feel like it'd be another Archeage where you get 200+ class options, but due to human nature we'd be drawn to the Most Efficient Tactics Available (M.E.T.A.) and less than 10 of that 200+ options would even be used.

Kinda like we have now, with sets?

Yes, people would flock to the meta... the same people who already are.

But for the rest of us, we would have more variety and versatility. Even in games like Skyrim, people flock to the stealth archer. Even single player games like Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind have "meta's" that people will flock to. It's just the nature of the beast.

As far as the specific suggestion of more attributes, I'm a "maybe agree". I don't think that more attributes are inherently better, and I don't believe that Morrowind had an inherently better character build system than Skyrim.

However, I do agree that the current setup is non-sensical. Damage / ability strength should not scale off the size of your resource pool. Your pool should simply be how many times you can cast your abilities. But as it is, even the cost of abilities scales, meaning you can have a bigger pool but still do the same amount of casts (just like damage received scales to your health pool). Actual strength of said abilities should come from other areas. The current setup rewards putting all points in one resource pool, and putting points ONLY into that one resource pool, and penalizes you for putting even a single point into health (unless you're a tank) or the other resource, and that makes no sense to me.

So I would be happy with some sort of revamp (that will never happen, it's too much a fundamental aspect of the game), but I don't agree that more attributes is an inherently better system. But I am in favor of anything that allows more options for character individualization.

what_the

Strongly Disagree

GodKingScormxon wrote: »

That's why luck is important. To lower the cost of things I have never looted gold gear or items like perfect roe or the upgrade material you need for the experience potions the one people charge a million gold for or more.

If you max out your crafting line and do the daily writs, you can get those items everyday...(not the gold gear, of course).

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I actually never did that stealth archer thing in Skyrim the only thing that bummed me out was the lose of the main attributes I even blanked that out of my memory because of the disappointment I beet the game with out any mods, in 2014, because none of them worked and didn't even let my game update because I loved the old armor stand glitch.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I do normal writs everyday with about 9 of my characters still haven't received perfect roe from any of them.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I do received far more resin than any other

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

I have also received whole gold plating as well.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

But I am not referring to those. It's monster drops I'm referring to.

GodKingScormxon

Strongly Agree

But honestly the drops in this game are way more frequent than other MMORPGs