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Redguard Martial Training buff

Castagere
Castagere
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Martial Training


Rank I - Unlocked at Redguard 5
Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 2%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 5%.
Rank II - Unlocked at Redguard 15
Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 4%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 10%.
Rank III - Unlocked at Redguard 30
Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 8%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%.

Can we get an improvement of this passive, please? It's been the same since launch while other races got major improvements.
  • StarOfElyon
    StarOfElyon
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    Castagere wrote: »
    Martial Training


    Rank I - Unlocked at Redguard 5
    Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 2%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 5%.
    Rank II - Unlocked at Redguard 15
    Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 4%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 10%.
    Rank III - Unlocked at Redguard 30
    Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 8%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%.

    Can we get an improvement of this passive, please? It's been the same since launch while other races got major improvements.

    Martial Training:
    Rank III - Increases the duration of crowd control immunity by 3 seconds.

    Also for Adrenaline Rush:
    Rank III - When you deal direct damage or take direct damage, you restore 1005 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds

    😍

  • Mythreindeer
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    Redguard is all but useless currently with no health or damage bonuses and no real need for it's sustain in the current meta.

    Give us a reason to choose this race. At least reduce the cost of all stamina abilities. Or maybe give a 10% shield buff
  • Extinct_Solo_Player
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    Scrap the useless snare reduction and maybe give a 8% damage done with damaging abilities. That would make redguard a lot more enticing.
    Edited by Extinct_Solo_Player on July 13, 2021 12:12PM
  • Stx
    Stx
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    Scrap the useless snare reduction and maybe give a 8% damage done with damaging abilities. That would make redguard a lot more enticing.

    8% damage done with all damaging abilities? Yeah that would do it.

    Redguard is one of if not the worst race in the game right now. Not only because you have to build niche for weapon skills to make use of the cost reduction but with the new cp sustain racials just aren't as good anymore in pve. In pvp there are better sustain races in imperial. And much better stamina races in general.

    Should just change the weapon cost reduction to all stamina skills and then change the stamina proc to something else like physical resist. Redguard could be the stamina version of breton at least.
  • Amottica
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    I was not here at launch, started playing this year. However, I used the wayback machine to find out what the race passives for Redguard was back in 2014, the year ESO launched.

    Below are those passive. The passive presented in the OP has not been the same since launch.

    Redguard

    Shield Affinity (1 rank) - Increases experience gain with the One-Handed and Shield skill line by 15%.
    Vigor (3 ranks) - Increases Stamina Recovery while in combat by (3/6/9)%.
    Conditioning (3 ranks) - Increases maximum Stamina by (4/7/10)%.
    Adrenaline Rush (3 ranks) - Restores (1/2/3) Stamina to the player when damaging an enemy with a Melee attack. This can occur no more than once every 3 seconds..

    The link is below.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20140527194957/http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/02/racial-comparison/

    From what I gather, Zenimax did a major pass on the racial passives and normalized them to make more of the race choices viable for more builds. That is likely when the passives presented in the OP came about so it is not that old. Also, I find it curious that OP has not presented their suggestion for change.
  • Amottica
    Amottica
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    Scrap the useless snare reduction and maybe give a 8% damage done with damaging abilities. That would make redguard a lot more enticing.

    Very true. It would. However, it would also be very OP as I think it would be the strongest passive in ESO by far. It could make it the required choice for the damage metas.
  • ke.sardenb14_ESO
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    So new adrenaline rush had made redguard a solid tank race since it is one of the blew races that can regen resources while still blocking.

    But in here for RG having % damage buff to weapon abilities, I figure it would:
    1. Make some classes with less favorable spammables more inviting
    2. Make RG more hybrid freely since the %damage would buff staffs as well.
    3. Pave the way for all new builds that explore weapon abilities not often used.

    Ideally id still like this balance so that it doesn't out perform like dark elf and khajti.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Stx wrote: »
    Scrap the useless snare reduction and maybe give a 8% damage done with damaging abilities. That would make redguard a lot more enticing.

    8% damage done with all damaging abilities? Yeah that would do it.

    Redguard is one of if not the worst race in the game right now. Not only because you have to build niche for weapon skills to make use of the cost reduction but with the new cp sustain racials just aren't as good anymore in pve. In pvp there are better sustain races in imperial. And much better stamina races in general.

    Should just change the weapon cost reduction to all stamina skills and then change the stamina proc to something else like physical resist. Redguard could be the stamina version of breton at least.

    Redguard needs a change, but I don’t think making them the Breton equivalent is the answer. Breton is also in a very weak state, arguably worse than Redguard now that Bahsei’s Mania is meta and having more sustain than the rest of the group directly translates into less DPS. Both races need either a damage passive, or some type of strong utility, ideally something very unique.

    Alternatively, I’d like to see gear sets or skills that reward sustain races with more damage, instead of punishing them like Bahsei’s. It’s a shame that Radiant Oppression had to be reworked to fit into the current backward system, and lost this unique property that once made Breton Magplars competitive with other races.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on July 16, 2021 6:51AM
  • ke.sardenb14_ESO
    ke.sardenb14_ESO
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    Stx wrote: »
    Scrap the useless snare reduction and maybe give a 8% damage done with damaging abilities. That would make redguard a lot more enticing.

    8% damage done with all damaging abilities? Yeah that would do it.

    Redguard is one of if not the worst race in the game right now. Not only because you have to build niche for weapon skills to make use of the cost reduction but with the new cp sustain racials just aren't as good anymore in pve. In pvp there are better sustain races in imperial. And much better stamina races in general.

    Should just change the weapon cost reduction to all stamina skills and then change the stamina proc to something else like physical resist. Redguard could be the stamina version of breton at least.

    Redguard needs a change, but I don’t think making them the Breton equivalent is the answer. Breton is also in a very weak state, arguably worse than Redguard now that Bahsei’s Mania is meta and having more sustain than the rest of the group directly translates into less DPS. Both races need either a damage passive, or some type of strong utility, ideally something very unique.

    Alternatively, I’d like to see gear sets or skills that reward sustain races with more damage, instead of punishing them like Bahsei’s. It’s a shame that Radiant Oppression had to be reworked to fit into the current backward system, and lost this unique property that once made Breton Magplars competitive with other races.

    I think the only issue here is that so may can get away with just parse food, so everybody can sustain incredibly well
    (if you are not a magDK).
  • Castagere
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    Dark Elfs got a bonus for the dual weld skill. I would love to see a bonus for bladed weapons or something instead of just the 8% reduction with stamina. Their lore claims them to be the ultimate martial race yet they don't feel like it.
  • ke.sardenb14_ESO
    ke.sardenb14_ESO
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    Castagere wrote: »
    Dark Elfs got a bonus for the dual weld skill. I would love to see a bonus for bladed weapons or something instead of just the 8% reduction with stamina. Their lore claims them to be the ultimate martial race yet they don't feel like it.

    So all Dark elf gets is increased exp gain for dual wield abilities, which is consistent with all classes. I would think RG would get 2h, but sword and board is not far off the mark.

    Someone had recommended that RG would gain a special buff depending on the weapon they used, similar to your suggestion. The only reason I'm against this is because if this change were to be made, it would make RG the only class with ultra specific rules, making them kind of an odd man out. Also can you imagine the roll out for such a change, I imagine redguard would be glitch for 4 patches before the numbers worked.
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    Redguards definitely need some help.

    In lore, they are positioned as the preeminent warrior class yet in ESO they receive no damage bonus and are literally the weakest race in all of Tamriel, having no survivability bonuses whatsoever.

    Changing the Snare passive to Physical Resistance is an easy change for the better. Or, if wanting to be even more true to the lore, resistance bonuses to both Poison and Disease damage.

    After that, a damage bonus is needed. Too many other races already have raw Weapon Damage, so choosing something like Physical Penetration or Weapon Critical Chance (or both!) would be a fitting representation of the Redguards' prowess with martial weapons.

    Currently, Bosmers receive 950 Spell and Physical Penetration, so, using that standard, Redguards would require 1900 Physical Penetration in order to be balanced with them on this stat.

    Finally, you could either convert the 8% Weapon ability passive to an 8% global Stamina reduction OR scrap the sustain angle entirely and give Redguards some Weapon Critical Chance - a bonus that would be unique among all of the races. Somewhere in the range of 5-7% Weapon Critical would likely be acceptable but I'd leave that to others for a more rigorously mathematical evaluation.
  • ke.sardenb14_ESO
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    @YandereGirlfriend
    Overall I agree with you, as it is now RG really only serves as a strong PvE tank. But considering adrenaline rush was, at least in skyrim, super stamina recovery, there is an argument for the RG being THE stamina sustain race, which would actually be great if sustain was actually hard.
    Lore wise redguard are definited as the most naturally gifted warriors in all of Tamriel. To me naturally gifted would translate to them having the highest stamina pool of any race, which I can't imagine would be a major change. Since they are considered an agile race as well, I don't know why they don't have something like a speed buff or role dodge cost reduction.
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Redguards definitely need some help.

    In lore, they are positioned as the preeminent warrior class yet in ESO they receive no damage bonus and are literally the weakest race in all of Tamriel, having no survivability bonuses whatsoever.

    Changing the Snare passive to Physical Resistance is an easy change for the better. Or, if wanting to be even more true to the lore, resistance bonuses to both Poison and Disease damage.

    After that, a damage bonus is needed. Too many other races already have raw Weapon Damage, so choosing something like Physical Penetration or Weapon Critical Chance (or both!) would be a fitting representation of the Redguards' prowess with martial weapons.

    Currently, Bosmers receive 950 Spell and Physical Penetration, so, using that standard, Redguards would require 1900 Physical Penetration in order to be balanced with them on this stat.

    Finally, you could either convert the 8% Weapon ability passive to an 8% global Stamina reduction OR scrap the sustain angle entirely and give Redguards some Weapon Critical Chance - a bonus that would be unique among all of the races. Somewhere in the range of 5-7% Weapon Critical would likely be acceptable but I'd leave that to others for a more rigorously mathematical evaluation.

    I agree with most of your points. I don’t really think Bosmer’s 950 Spell Pen is a relevant stat though. Typically “offensive penetration” is valued exactly the same as Spell Pen or Physical Pen, with the assumption that only one side of it is going to be particularly useful. That being said, I do think 1900 Penetration would be fairly reasonable. Bosmer’s 950 Pen is also combined on a single passive with 5% speed and a stealth bonus.

    I’d prefer they get something unique though, receiving a better version of the Bosmer passive would be boring. Crit chance would be extremely useful, but I don’t know if that’s an option after it was removed from Khajiit.

    The strange thing about their 8% cost reduction, is that changing it to all stamina abilities would likely make Redguard DPS worse. Right now they get cost reduction in weapon ultimates, which does boost damage slightly on builds that use Ballista. Not enough to make their damage good, but I’d hate to see that unique aspect removed and their damage drop just to get even more sustain.

    If anything it would be nice to see the 8% ult cost reduction extended outside of weapon skill lines. This would put their ultimate speed somewhere between Nord and Imperial, allowing them to do more frequent Warhorns, Colossus, Dawnbreakers, and Dragonknight Standards.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on July 17, 2021 2:54PM
  • Castagere
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    A lot of great replies here guys.
    Thank you
  • Spurius_Lucilius
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    If they want to keep the flavor of Redguard as a master of weapons, they can change the cost reduction to something like a short offensive buff after using a weapon ability, so it encourages Redguard players to use weapon abilities while also makes the passive buff all skills.
    PC NA Casual/PVP
  • Stx
    Stx
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    Similar to the new Heartland conquerer set, what if the weapon cost reduction racial for Redguards was replaced with a passive that boosted your weapon traits by 50%. This would keep the theme going of a weaponmaster but it would be versatile and useful for any build.

    2k stamina, resource proc, plus 50% trait boost (for sharpened that would be about 1500 pen depending on weapon quality).

    It might not make it meta but better I think.
  • StarOfElyon
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    Stx wrote: »
    Similar to the new Heartland conquerer set, what if the weapon cost reduction racial for Redguards was replaced with a passive that boosted your weapon traits by 50%. This would keep the theme going of a weaponmaster but it would be versatile and useful for any build.

    2k stamina, resource proc, plus 50% trait boost (for sharpened that would be about 1500 pen depending on weapon quality).

    It might not make it meta but better I think.

    I would like that but 50% is way too much. Maybe 10% would be fine.
  • YandereGirlfriend
    YandereGirlfriend
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    Stx wrote: »
    Similar to the new Heartland conquerer set, what if the weapon cost reduction racial for Redguards was replaced with a passive that boosted your weapon traits by 50%. This would keep the theme going of a weaponmaster but it would be versatile and useful for any build.

    2k stamina, resource proc, plus 50% trait boost (for sharpened that would be about 1500 pen depending on weapon quality).

    It might not make it meta but better I think.

    I would like that but 50% is way too much. Maybe 10% would be fine.

    That would be crazily weak and likely much worse than the underwhelming current bonus.
  • Kory
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    Redguard should get weapon/spell damage, or penetration. Simple as that. Or make it so the 8% cost reduction is to all stamina abilities instead of limiting the whole passive to a weapon skill line.
  • Septimus_Magna
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    From a lore perspective it doesnt make sense that Redguards dont have a weapon damage bonus, they're the weapon master race after all.

    I mean, even Altmers have more weapon damage and they're mostly regarded as mages. I just doesnt make sense to me.
    PC - EU (AD)
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    Septimus Rulanir - Orsimer Templar
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    Septimus Thragar - Dunmer Nightblade
    Septimus Jah'zar - Khajiit Nightblade
    Septimus Nerox - Redguard Warden
    Septimus Ozurk - Orsimer Sorcerer
  • Stx
    Stx
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    From a lore perspective it doesnt make sense that Redguards dont have a weapon damage bonus, they're the weapon master race after all.

    I mean, even Altmers have more weapon damage and they're mostly regarded as mages. I just doesnt make sense to me.

    Not many of the racials make sense.

    Like dark elves are supposed to be a 'hybrid' race but still have the best dps racials for pure stamina?
  • WrathOfInnos
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    From a lore perspective it doesnt make sense that Redguards dont have a weapon damage bonus, they're the weapon master race after all.

    I mean, even Altmers have more weapon damage and they're mostly regarded as mages. I just doesnt make sense to me.

    At least Redguard can sustain a Magicka DPS rotation better than Altmer :D. This one has bugged me since they removed Altmer’s Magicka Recovery. Redguard gets an 8% cost reduction on Wall, which saves around 250 Mag every 10s. Much more if they use Force Pulse, Reach, or Ring/Pulsar, and reducing the cost of Fiery Rage (the pinnacle of destruction magic) from 250 to 230 is pretty nice as well.

    I’m not saying Redguards are better Mages than Altmer, because they still lack damage. I just think it defies the lore of every previous elder scrolls game that Altmer runs out of Magicka in scenarios where Redguard could keep casting all day.

    Fits just about as well as an Altmer hitting harder with a sword than a Redguard...
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on July 19, 2021 6:15PM
  • Castagere
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    I really hope ZOS sees this topic. Nothing wrong with doing another passive update, please.
  • Faulgor
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    Stx wrote: »
    Similar to the new Heartland conquerer set, what if the weapon cost reduction racial for Redguards was replaced with a passive that boosted your weapon traits by 50%. This would keep the theme going of a weaponmaster but it would be versatile and useful for any build.

    2k stamina, resource proc, plus 50% trait boost (for sharpened that would be about 1500 pen depending on weapon quality).

    It might not make it meta but better I think.

    That would have been my suggestion as well.
    50% also doesn't seem too much, only when compared to Bosmer's penetration bonus. Powered, Defending and Nirnhoned would be substantially less than Argonian, Nord and Orc bonuses, for example.
    Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Kory
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    Redguard's are known for their weapon mastery, I like the idea of giving them a percentage boost to their weapon traits similar to the heartland set. That's a nice idea
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    redguards need a buff to make them unique but useful, right now they're in such a weird spot.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
  • ke.sardenb14_ESO
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    I can see the logic behind the cost reduction. You could argue that they are naturally more efficient with weapons then most other races.
    However, I like the idea of giving them a %damage increase to weapon damage too. I also would not be against just increase the stamina pool to 3000. I'm a stronger advocate of the stamina increase because I imagine that it would require less calculations and server queues to make, which seem to be zos goal moving forward.
  • StarOfElyon
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    Castagere wrote: »
    Martial Training


    Rank I - Unlocked at Redguard 5
    Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 2%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 5%.
    Rank II - Unlocked at Redguard 15
    Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 4%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 10%.
    Rank III - Unlocked at Redguard 30
    Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 8%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%.

    Can we get an improvement of this passive, please? It's been the same since launch while other races got major improvements.


    There were some good ideas tossed around in this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/581820/zenimax-please-buff-rework-redguard/p2

    I made a post incorporating some of them:
    Alucardo wrote: »
    It is just not worth using them has a dps at the moment, but i love the race so much... But believe me in my opinion you did a good job with the other races.

    You can remove the 6% weapon damage cost and add 150 or 250 weapon damage , or remove the snare reduction passive... it would be amazing and help the race keep it's master of weapons identity... just please, give redguards some attention.

    There's just no reason for me to play redguard when orc, Khajit , Dark elf , bosmer exists.

    How about this for the Martial Training rework:

    Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 8%. Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%. Reduces the cost of combat actions (sprinting, roll dodging, blocking, bashing, breaking free and sneaking) by 5%.

    Personally I think they should just get a blanket cost reduction on all stamina abilities.
    Stx wrote: »
    So if we want to keep the theme of Redguards being 'weapon masters', what about changing the 8% cost reduction to weapon skills to..

    50% increased effectiveness to weapon traits. Mini version of Heartland conquerer. You could also hybridize their resource proc.

    2k stamina
    1k stamina or magicka proc (based on higher total pool)
    50% boost to weapon traits (3.5% crit for precise 2hander, or 100 wep/spell damage +1.7% crit for a dual wield setup)

    That might even be too good but it would be versatile too.

    How about this for Redgaurd passives:

    Wayfarer
    Increases experience gain with One-Handed and Shield Skill line by 15%.
    Increases the duration of eaten food by 15 minutes.

    Martial Training
    Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 8%.
    Increases the effectiveness of your Weapon Traits by 50%

    Conditioning
    Increases Max Stamina by 2000.
    Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 15%.

    Adrenaline Rush
    When you deal damage, you restore 1032 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

    If you were to hybridize this passive, maybe this would be good:

    When you deal damage, you restore 744 Magicka and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

  • Sluggy
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    Personally, when they did the major racial adjustments back during Murkmire I personally felt many of them didn't go far enough. They should be passives that get us absolutely excited about playing a particual race. At the time only the Nord and maybe the Orc actually looked interesting.

    Anyway, the snare reduction has always been stupid-looking to me. Even in PvP that directly translates to ZERO snare reduction. Why not take it to something more extreme - like, saaaaaay, 100% snare reduction? And I also agree that the 8% saved on weapon skills pales in comparison to Imperials. Make it more extreme. Either something like 15% for weapons or maybe 8% on all stamina skills. I dunno. Just throwing numbers out there. I've said it before and I'll say it again. This stuff might looked balanced on their formula-based spreadsheets but ZoS needs to actually take live-gameplay and opportunity costs into account before they start putting down final numbers.
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