Pelinals wrath < pelinals aptitude

Sluggy

oterWitz wrote: »

And who knows, maybe they'll reintroduce the hybrid set with a different name "Prismatic Aptitude" or some such in keeping with their new lore and naming priorities

Still doesn't save me all the gold mats I've spent over the years on this set. I'd rather they just make a new set if they want to make this thing.

Again, this might be a niche set but it's VERY loved by those that have embraced it. It's not like Sithis's Touch which actually WAS useless in every sense and really did NEED the change. And it certainly doesn't fall into that realm of brokenly op.

So... why change it?

Red_Feather

Sluggy wrote: »

Been using this set for years on my DK. It allows me to play an extremely powerful healer, a healer/damage dealer, and an extremely powerful damage dealer.

Over the years I've had to adjust to many minor changes to DKs and core game mechanics to keep it working but this final change will be the nail in the coffin. If it goes through, I *will* be deconning all pieces I've crafted (of which there are many) and not be looking back.

I have almost every piece of armour, jewellery and weapons crafted in pelinal's. All done for specific build purposes and now how much of it is going to be broken down into materials. 😪

oterWitz

I did some quick tests. First with a run through nFG1 on my stamblade wearing new Pelinal's + Briarheart + RotPO with the usual vMA bow/1-piece monster extras. For buff food I was completely unbuffed for the first two boss fights, then used Lava Foot Soup and Saltrice, with the reasoning that I wanted to keep my max health as low as possible while maximizing DPS and HPS. In this more causal run I noticed that I got some pretty hefty shields during combat, especially during all the add fights in the first half of the dungeon. During combat, my self healing was sufficient so that healing was never an issue. But before and after fights my health would drop, with the lowest being 30%. Besides the healing and shields, I didn't feel any big changes overall compared to something like Hundings Rage.

Second, I took my stamsorc through vFG1 wearing new Pelinal's + Levi + RotPO with the usual vMA bow/1-piece monster extras. She had Lava Foot on the whole way through. During this run, healing was still not an issue, though I noticed fewer health drops in the windows before and after combat which relates to the following issue with stacks of Wrath of Whitestrake. I paid much more attention to the stacks of wp/sp damage and converse Oblivion damage during this run, and was a bit disappointed at how difficult it was to maintain max stacks, or indeed any stacks during boss fights. The best boss for this set was the crab boss, because it spawned many weak adds every 10 seconds or so, so I could easily gather many stacks and keep those stacks refreshed. But on the Dreugh King last fight, I spent most of the fight at zero stacks, only acquiring them during the two add phases. During all fights where I did have stacks of Wrath of Whitestrake, I felt like I was wasting them fairly often because I would have to refresh my buffs and dots during the ten second window you have to maintain the stacks rather than directly damaging the boss with the higher weapon damage.

Thinking ahead to other places where this set might be used, it could have an edge in any add heavy boss fight, but keep in mind those adds have to be fairly weak and abundant so that you can kill them quickly enough to keep the stacks of Wrath of Whitestrake up. So it will probably perform slightly worse than Hundings in a fight like Maebroogha in vVH where there is a steady stream of adds but those are too tanky and infrequent to keep up more than a few stacks for very long.

-tldr-
So, after these quick tests my verdict is that the current version of Pelinal's Wrath is not very strong for solo play. In my opinion, it would be best to revert to the old set and rename it. If the devs are dead set on adding yet another set to the game, then rework Pelinal's Wrath so that stacks last longer but the initial damage shield is weaker (or a similar tradeoff).

Sluggy

oterWitz wrote: »

I did some quick tests. First with a run through nFG1 on my stamblade wearing new Pelinal's + Briarheart + RotPO with the usual vMA bow/1-piece monster extras. For buff food I was completely unbuffed for the first two boss fights, then used Lava Foot Soup and Saltrice, with the reasoning that I wanted to keep my max health as low as possible while maximizing DPS and HPS. In this more causal run I noticed that I got some pretty hefty shields during combat, especially during all the add fights in the first half of the dungeon. During combat, my self healing was sufficient so that healing was never an issue. But before and after fights my health would drop, with the lowest being 30%. Besides the healing and shields, I didn't feel any big changes overall compared to something like Hundings Rage.

Second, I took my stamsorc through vFG1 wearing new Pelinal's + Levi + RotPO with the usual vMA bow/1-piece monster extras. She had Lava Foot on the whole way through. During this run, healing was still not an issue, though I noticed fewer health drops in the windows before and after combat which relates to the following issue with stacks of Wrath of Whitestrake. I paid much more attention to the stacks of wp/sp damage and converse Oblivion damage during this run, and was a bit disappointed at how difficult it was to maintain max stacks, or indeed any stacks during boss fights. The best boss for this set was the crab boss, because it spawned many weak adds every 10 seconds or so, so I could easily gather many stacks and keep those stacks refreshed. But on the Dreugh King last fight, I spent most of the fight at zero stacks, only acquiring them during the two add phases. During all fights where I did have stacks of Wrath of Whitestrake, I felt like I was wasting them fairly often because I would have to refresh my buffs and dots during the ten second window you have to maintain the stacks rather than directly damaging the boss with the higher weapon damage.

Thinking ahead to other places where this set might be used, it could have an edge in any add heavy boss fight, but keep in mind those adds have to be fairly weak and abundant so that you can kill them quickly enough to keep the stacks of Wrath of Whitestrake up. So it will probably perform slightly worse than Hundings in a fight like Maebroogha in vVH where there is a steady stream of adds but those are too tanky and infrequent to keep up more than a few stacks for very long.

-tldr-
So, after these quick tests my verdict is that the current version of Pelinal's Wrath is not very strong for solo play. In my opinion, it would be best to revert to the old set and rename it. If the devs are dead set on adding yet another set to the game, then rework Pelinal's Wrath so that stacks last longer but the initial damage shield is weaker (or a similar tradeoff).

Thank you for the testing. Though on paper it seems pretty useless to me for anything I'd ever use it for it is still nice to see someone actually at least try it.

In my case though it's obviously a dead set. I use it in PvP primarily and with the less frequent 'on target death' conditions being met, much weaker healing, and the need to often relocate quickly while conserving resources by not spamming skills I can tell just by looking that it would never suit my purposes in the new form at all.

gariondavey

oterWitz wrote: »

I did some quick tests. First with a run through nFG1 on my stamblade wearing new Pelinal's + Briarheart + RotPO with the usual vMA bow/1-piece monster extras. For buff food I was completely unbuffed for the first two boss fights, then used Lava Foot Soup and Saltrice, with the reasoning that I wanted to keep my max health as low as possible while maximizing DPS and HPS. In this more causal run I noticed that I got some pretty hefty shields during combat, especially during all the add fights in the first half of the dungeon. During combat, my self healing was sufficient so that healing was never an issue. But before and after fights my health would drop, with the lowest being 30%. Besides the healing and shields, I didn't feel any big changes overall compared to something like Hundings Rage.

Second, I took my stamsorc through vFG1 wearing new Pelinal's + Levi + RotPO with the usual vMA bow/1-piece monster extras. She had Lava Foot on the whole way through. During this run, healing was still not an issue, though I noticed fewer health drops in the windows before and after combat which relates to the following issue with stacks of Wrath of Whitestrake. I paid much more attention to the stacks of wp/sp damage and converse Oblivion damage during this run, and was a bit disappointed at how difficult it was to maintain max stacks, or indeed any stacks during boss fights. The best boss for this set was the crab boss, because it spawned many weak adds every 10 seconds or so, so I could easily gather many stacks and keep those stacks refreshed. But on the Dreugh King last fight, I spent most of the fight at zero stacks, only acquiring them during the two add phases. During all fights where I did have stacks of Wrath of Whitestrake, I felt like I was wasting them fairly often because I would have to refresh my buffs and dots during the ten second window you have to maintain the stacks rather than directly damaging the boss with the higher weapon damage.

Thinking ahead to other places where this set might be used, it could have an edge in any add heavy boss fight, but keep in mind those adds have to be fairly weak and abundant so that you can kill them quickly enough to keep the stacks of Wrath of Whitestrake up. So it will probably perform slightly worse than Hundings in a fight like Maebroogha in vVH where there is a steady stream of adds but those are too tanky and infrequent to keep up more than a few stacks for very long.

-tldr-
So, after these quick tests my verdict is that the current version of Pelinal's Wrath is not very strong for solo play. In my opinion, it would be best to revert to the old set and rename it. If the devs are dead set on adding yet another set to the game, then rework Pelinal's Wrath so that stacks last longer but the initial damage shield is weaker (or a similar tradeoff).

Thanks for the testing. It honestly sounds so bad, and really is a divergence from one of my favorite 9 trait crafted sets

Red_Feather

So all the stacks disappear just after 10 seconds?

oterWitz

Red_Feather wrote: »

So all the stacks disappear just after 10 seconds?

Yes if you go ten seconds without killing something, you lose all stacks. For an anecdote, I was just doing a bit more testing with it in vVH alongside the changes to Cleave and went through killing adds, got to nine stacks but lost them two seconds into the first gatekeeper fight and proceeded to die. Some things feel "off" beyond this new set lol

Wolf_Eye

oterWitz wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

So all the stacks disappear just after 10 seconds?

Yes if you go ten seconds without killing something, you lose all stacks. For an anecdote, I was just doing a bit more testing with it in vVH alongside the changes to Cleave and went through killing adds, got to nine stacks but lost them two seconds into the first gatekeeper fight and proceeded to die. Some things feel "off" beyond this new set lol

That just makes it pretty much useless if you can't kill mobs fast enough. But people with the best damage outputs are probably not going to be using a niche set like this, so what is the point?

Integral1900

So basically, in an attempt to make the most useful of hybrids sets more useful they’ve turned it into a completely useless DPS set instead.......... Why am I not surprised....... Good grief, my DK hybrid alone is losing nearly 1500 spell damage from this stupid change! Yet at the same time, any sane DPS would have to have their head examined to use this thing.

I do not understand how taking huge chunks of weapon or spell damage away from hybrids is going to encourage people to play hybrids!

Riddari

This is a 9 trait crafted set. For 9 traits it needs to be far more useful than this. It would have been fine to just buff the 2 3 or 4 trait aspects of this set and leave the 5 trait alone.

Also lore wise this has nothing to do with Pelinal. Where did he have to kill stuff fast to get stronger and hurt himself with oblivion damage? Absolute nonsense.

At least the original set I could say "well it kinda makes sense cuz he used magic and weapons to obliterate elves". Trying to 'stay true' to the vision of Pelinal is a cop out just to introduce a bizarre niche set that's replacing a perfectly valid set.

BalticBlues

Integral1900 wrote: »

So basically, in an attempt to make the most useful of hybrids sets more useful they’ve turned it into a completely useless DPS set instead.

Unfortunately, yes. This is another example of devaluating former content and playstyles.
This will *** many players off who have invested a lot of gold and time for the set.
If ZOS wants new features, they should create a new set instead of DESTROYING A UNIQUE SET.

Wolf_Eye

BalticBlues wrote: »

Integral1900 wrote: »

So basically, in an attempt to make the most useful of hybrids sets more useful they’ve turned it into a completely useless DPS set instead.

Unfortunately, yes. This is another example of devaluating former content and playstyles.
This will *** many players off who have invested a lot of gold and time for the set.
If ZOS wants new features, they should create a new set instead of DESTROYING A UNIQUE SET.

It's going to be an extra rude awakening for people who play hybrids but don't follow the forums or patch notes.

They're going to go into combat with their usual Pelinal's, only to suddenly wonder "Wait, why am I rapidly losing a bunch of health????"

kojou

I feel like the 5 piece bonus is what they should have done with Thrassian Stranglers.

Red_Feather

What a mess. This set is not good in practice. Why was it done like this.

Faulgor

Riddari wrote: »

This is a 9 trait crafted set. For 9 traits it needs to be far more useful than this. It would have been fine to just buff the 2 3 or 4 trait aspects of this set and leave the 5 trait alone.

Also lore wise this has nothing to do with Pelinal. Where did he have to kill stuff fast to get stronger and hurt himself with oblivion damage? Absolute nonsense.

At least the original set I could say "well it kinda makes sense cuz he used magic and weapons to obliterate elves". Trying to 'stay true' to the vision of Pelinal is a cop out just to introduce a bizarre niche set that's replacing a perfectly valid set.

Not to mention that harming yourself while continuously getting stronger is the theme of Vampires' Blood Frenzy. Instead of making Vampires useful they are just dilluting their theme.

Luke_Flamesword

What's more stupid - no one is using this set for serious meta gameplay. It's mostly niche for calm, overland players who just want some fun or roleplaying in certain situations. And now they will have this stressfull, kiling them mechanic that they don't want and which is worse than old set. Also I never heard that this set was op in any way and even with come CP and balance changes it shouldn't be nothing bad for a game. And even if some point it would be too strong for some reason, you can just adjust it (for example change equal weapon and spell damage only to maximum 80% of higher one). There is aboslutely no need to delete this really fun and original set.

I'm using this only from couple months and it brings new life for my stamdk, which I was bored and with Pelinal is my perfect, dreamed theme - 2h sword and fire magic. I had a lot of fun with it and after reading patch notes, I just lost my apetite for game...

coop500

Honestly the werewolf brutal pounce stacks are already a bit of a pain to keep up, I can't imagine the micromanagement hell that this set is.
Also worthless for boss fights unless you're chasing adds.

It's basically a more annoying, more worthless version of the vampire skill that hurts you while giving you spell/weapon damage.

Tyreal1974

[snip] I am not even close to being a meta chaser nor am I strong player skills wise (potato all the way and I still have never had the time to devote to a trial), but Pelinial's is a fun set that that I have been using for a while now on several toons and the set will now be completely useless from what I can see. I would ask for more information from the Dev's about the reasons for this change but that would be more pointless than the viability of the new Pelinial's attributes in my opinion.

Perhaps someone smarter than me could answer a few questions for me. Why I would knowingly wear a cursed armor set into battle knowing it will injure me during combat? Would the damage cause a proc from the Storm Knight set or one of the other sets that procs when a character is damaged? What is the advantage to taking this damage? The bonuses do not really seem to be that great if I have to wear a mythic ring (and therefore give up a monster set) to heal through so I seriously do not understand why a person would wear armor that causes stacks of damage upwards of 10% of my health per second. I know I am not the sharpest rock in the river, but perhaps the people defending this change (or anyone else for that matter) could explain it to me.

Also, it seems to me that the changes to this set would be more appropriate to the Whitestrake's Retribution set.

*edited for spelling and clarity

[edited for bashing]

Fennwitty

Pretty sure they had an idea for a new crafted set, wanted to theme it after Pelinal, and saw "Pelinal's Aptitude" exists.

silvereyes

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Also I never heard that this set was op in any way and even with come CP and balance changes it shouldn't be nothing bad for a game. And even if some point it would be too strong for some reason, you can just adjust it (for example change equal weapon and spell damage only to maximum 80% of higher one). There is aboslutely no need to delete this really fun and original set.

Yeah, my initial thought was that maybe Pelinal's Aptitude was too OP with the other hybrid changes in Update 31, but you are totally right that it isn't hard to nerf it without killing the bonuses.

My guess is that this set's unique calculations were standing in the way of some bit of code that the devs really wanted to refactor.

notyuu

I can't figure out what type of content this set is aimed towards

Overland - it's overland...you can beat it with no arms, enough said

Dungons - lower skilled players who could make use of the damage boost would be crippled if not outrightly killed by the self damage and higher skilled players just make add groups disintegrate too fast for the damage bonus to be useful, agsaint bosses it's moot as the proc is "on kill"

Trials - Might be useful in normal trials for the less...capable players, if the healer dosn't break down under the extra pressure, and even then given the time limit you'd be lucky to get more than 2 stacks at a time

PvP - Unless you encounter a herd of wild potatos you won't get jack from the set other than the occasional bit of pain and death

Arena - Might be useful here, but given the arenas once "cracked" tend to become trivial...it would only really help with the whole pushing of leaderboard stuff, and even then with a rather niche build.

So it's basically like a even more niche version of the already niche therassian stranglers, highly recomend that the proc conditions (for both pelinals and stranglers) gets made into something more....common but controlable, like a bash, heavy attack or crit.

Red_Feather

notyuu wrote: »

I can't figure out what type of content this set is aimed towards

Overland - it's overland...you can beat it with no arms, enough said

Dungons - lower skilled players who could make use of the damage boost would be crippled if not outrightly killed by the self damage and higher skilled players just make add groups disintegrate too fast for the damage bonus to be useful, agsaint bosses it's moot as the proc is "on kill"

Trials - Might be useful in normal dungons for the less...capable players, if the healer dosn't break down under the extra pressure, and even then given the time limit you'd be lucky to get more than 2 stacks at a time

PvP - Unless you encounter a herd of wild potatos you won't get jack from the set other than the occasional bit of pain and death

Arena - Might be useful here, but given the arenas once "cracked" tend to become trivial...it would only really help with the whole pushing of leaderboard stuff, and even then with a rather niche build.

So it's basically like a even more niche version of the already niche therassian stranglers, highly recomend that the proc conditions (for both pelinals and stranglers) gets made into something more....common but controlable, like a bash, heavy attack or crit.

I think the ONLY reason this set is replacing an existing one, instead of being added, is to help it look like this new set was being used in some metrics. Even though nobody would want to use it after seeing what it does. Once I found out all the stacks disappear after 10 seconds I realize I'm going to decon my entire 2 sets. What a waste. I imagine people who already have sets will use it out of curiosity and that will show in some glorious spreadhseet report on "player sets use".

Wolf_Eye

notyuu wrote: »

PvP - Unless you encounter a herd of wild potatos you won't get jack from the set other than the occasional bit of pain and death

That made me laugh a bit, because all I could think of was a lone player against actual floating potatoes (the root vegetable) instead of what you actually meant (Which was probably a reference to potato computers).

the1andonlyskwex

With all of the hybridization of passives, wasn't the old Pelinal's Aptitude bonus going to become nearly worthless anyway?

colossalvoids

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I agree that this change is highly questionable and represents a hard nerf for builds that used the old version.

The change should either be reverted or a new Mythic that embodies the old Pelinal's functionality needs to be introduced during the next Update.

For some reason i'm pretty sure we're already be hybrids by the time they might introduce it, we're moving that direction pretty rapidly now.

Milli_Rabbit

Literally the set is better now. Only problem is the duration of 10 seconds. Id prefer 30 seconds to allow time to kill enemies. The 10 stacks make you insanely strong and the dot is minimal. And it gives you a damage shield! This is OP in the right situation but would be really strong with a longer duration.

Sluggy

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

Literally the set is better now. Only problem is the duration of 10 seconds. Id prefer 30 seconds to allow time to kill enemies. The 10 stacks make you insanely strong and the dot is minimal. And it gives you a damage shield! This is OP in the right situation but would be really strong with a longer duration.

It may or may not be better in some situations. In my use case it is not better.

But that's really not the point. This is a massively drastic change that completely repurposes how and why the set is used. I've stood by and watched tons of things change over the years and never said a peep. Well I'm peeping now and quite loudly. If this new Pelinal's Wrath set should exist it should exist as it's own thing. Not by way of completely deleting yet one more thing from the game that many people love.

And yes, I do realize that hybrids can stand on their own without Pelinal's Aptitude. Moreso in U31 than ever before. That is also not the point. The point is this set still provides a unique effect found nowhere else that can have desirable effects. If it's a case that this set is no longer worth the opportunity cost then it should be buffed appropriately, not completely thrown out and replaced with something that offers a completely different set of effects under completely different circumstances.

gariondavey

Hopefully they don't do this. We will see come Monday.

stefj68

im disappointed, the 10 seconds without a kills kills the set usefullness
for a 9 traits sets this is GARBAGE, i prefer the old pelinal please bring back hold one

stacks should reset 1min after last kills
oblivion damage and damage shield should last 10secs after a kill

OR

NEW PELINAL WRATH
(2 items) Penetration
(3 items) Your Spell and Weapon Damage both become the higher of the two values.
(4 items) Weapon/Spell Damage
(5 items) Wrath of Whitestrake grants you up to 100 Weapon and Spell Damage per stack, but causes you to take 1% of your Max health as Oblivion Damage every second per stack, up to 10 stacks max.

[so giving us to use 3 pieces, or 5 pieces] when building our hybrids

i would like to see weapon glyph that gives both physical and magical arm on the same glyph

i tried in skyreach run, nFG1 and vFG1

Darkstorne

Integral1900 wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Destroys hybrid player playstyle? What are you talking about? Didn't you see that medium armor now grants spell damage as well and increases all crit damage while light armor grants physical penetration and weapon crit chance?
You do not need the old Pelinal's anymore to be hybrid!

Of course it does! Now we need to get both separate 20% damage boosts! How am I supposed to get that on a necromancer, it’s hard enough to get a hybrid build working for that class as it is!

Also what about the nearly 600 damage we get from the glyphs on our jewellery that now won’t be close copied over!

One of the largest changes in the entire patch notes and they didn’t even put a developer comment by it!

If I could make one change in this game, it would be to delete the 20% buffs and make them baseline in our damage. They're not fun, because they're so powerful that they simply aren't an option. If you don't have the buff up at all times you're "doing it wrong". It's boring game design, and would free up a lot of skills to do something far more interesting.