More Ayleid ruins in High Rock....smh :(

hcbigdogdoghc

We are finally going to get a dlc dungeon in a Breton zone, after SCP and FL that has nothing to do with Bretons.

And....it's Ayleid

I guess Direnni/Nedic/Breton ruins just don't exist in ZOS's eyes...or more accurately Breton/Direnni lore in general.

ZOS plz stop, these poor Bretons and Direnni are already dead!!!!! What has High Rock done to you:((

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/557953/poor-poor-bretons-the-most-shafted-race-in-eso
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570590/what-beef-do-you-think-zos-has-against-bretons-and-direnni

Faulgor

I thought you were going to mention that there shouldn't be any Ayleid ruins in High Rock in the first place.
They really shouldn't repeat mistakes they made at launch. At least make it a Direnni ruin.

hcbigdogdoghc

Faulgor wrote: »

I thought you were going to mention that there shouldn't be any Ayleid ruins in High Rock in the first place.
They really shouldn't repeat mistakes they made at launch. At least make it a Direnni ruin.

I sincerely believe that either ZOS thinks Bretons and Inperials are the exact same race, or that they got High Rock and Cyrodiil mixed up.

There are literally no other explanation for this other than "ZOS hate Bretons and wants to ruin their lore from the ground up".

With the treatment High Rock's been getting since 2014 I can't believe people seriously think ZOS will make a Breton Jehanna.

Like holy hell, there are more Direnni stuff in Summerset than High Rock, and there are more Nede stuff in Craglorn than High Rock.

ZOS seems to treat High Rock like it's a part of TES4 Cyrodiil and called it a day.

SeaGtGruff

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Direnni

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Laloriaran_Dynar

TX12001rwb17_ESO

I am mostly disappointed with how they used the Wayrest Castle/Daggerfall Overlook/Ravenwatch Castle design for one of the new dungeons.

waterfairy

would breton ruins even exist in this time period?

Supreme_Atromancer

Vigarr wrote: »

would breton ruins even exist in this time period?

Well, the Bretons had been around since the first Era, so why wouldn't they?

And what of their Direnni and Nedic ancestors who were around long before even those? Surely ruins would exist from these cultures?

There are big, obvious hooks written right into the lore offering opportunity and inspiration. ZOS' writing for Bretons seems wilfully ignorant of all of it. It seems determined that Bretons are boring, and lacks the imagination to do anything remotely interesting with them.

Look at what various writers have done with the original boring old nords and dark elves, lifting them out of their 2d descriptions to make them compelling and intriguing.

Given the lore and the imagination out there, I think the common view that "Bretons are boring" in the community is an indictment on the writing philosophy behind ESO.

dcam86b14_ESO

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I am mostly disappointed with how they used the Wayrest Castle/Daggerfall Overlook/Ravenwatch Castle design for one of the new dungeons.

This had me looking sideways lol

It's a new DLC and you're using really old textures and assets on top of new higher-res ones..it looks gross to look at imo.

Faulgor

High Rock's unique mixture of elven and human ancestry, cosmopolitan urban centers and primal backwaters, magical affinity and adherence to knightly orders, as well as an obsession with politics among the Breton elite founded in the huge variety and differences between the multitude of kingdoms, baronies, duchies, etc (no doubt the hard to traverse geography keeps many populations more isolated, resisting unification), should make this province and its inhabitants one of the most interesting to explore. Yet ...

Which is why I hope that TES6 features at least parts of High Rock as well. We can't expect anything interesting from ZOS on the Breton front anymore, but BGS might still deliver ...

Grandchamp1989

I'm really confused...

Should there be Ayleid ruins to begin with?

I thought Direnni bred with their slave Nedic and eventually created the Bretons.

Are Direnni Ayleid?

Supreme_Atromancer

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I'm really confused...

Should there be Ayleid ruins to begin with?

I thought Direnni bred with their slave Nedic and eventually created the Bretons.

Are Direnni Ayleid?

Nah, completely different breeds of Elf. The Direnni are essentially just an old clan among the Altmer, some of whom migrated to High Rock and became very successful there. Ayleid are as different from them as Dunmer are to Bosmer.

hcbigdogdoghc

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I'm really confused...

Should there be Ayleid ruins to begin with?

I thought Direnni bred with their slave Nedic and eventually created the Bretons.

Are Direnni Ayleid?

There really shouldn't. There are no references to Ayleid in Northwestern Tamriel before ESO at all.

ESO gave us the explanation that some Ayleid fled to High Rock after the Alessians defeated them, which makes sense.

But what didn't make sense is why are there Ayleid ruins everywhere as if they literally own the place before Bretons.

There are zero presence of Direnni and Nedes (Breton's ancestors) in ESO high rock, there are no presence of ancient Bretons in High Rock, yet high rock is littered with Ayleid ruins.

The same can be said for Orcs in wrothgar and ZOS retconning Bretons/Direnni/Nedes away from that region, but that's another discussion entirely.

Hell one of the loading screens even have reference to Ayleids in High Rock during the Dawn era smh

Supreme_Atromancer

The Direnni Hegemony was a big part of the history and identity of High Rock. They bred with the Nedes as you pointed out, and formed a ruling caste over the subsequent elf-nede offspring. There's all sorts of interesting dynamics there.

As far as I'm aware (someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I hope), the Ayleids never had anything to do with High Rock. They were in Cyrodiil, with outlying settlements in Valenwood and Black Marsh.

The issue people have is they keep doing this ayleid stuff when there's no reason (except maybe no clue about High Rock) not to capitalise on the Direnni stuff High Rock's lore had established.

And given that people already complain that Bretons are boring, failing to bother with Direnni stuff is a missed opportunity to maybe add some interest and dynamic to the High Rock, and to have a more robust recognition and development of the actual lore.

Hymzir

Was gonna start by saying something funny and clever about the presence of those Ayleid ruins in High Rock. Something about them being imported from Cyrodiil due to a fad among the kings of High Rock, and something about selling the Direnni stuff as raw masonry to Elsweyr or some other place. but... It's way too damn hot for my poor old brain, and it all got muddled up and don't want to think about it too hard, so just imagine I said something funny and insightful.

The real thing though, that I wanted to comment on, was that ZOS doesn't give a flying hoot about lore. Never has, never will. Bethesda doesn't care about it either. None of it matters to them. Elder Scroll is not some revered part of our literary history from ages past, it's an intellectual property they aim to use to make money with.

As such, each installment of the franchise is it's own unique concoction. They go with whatever they think to be coolest and most bankable idea at the moment of it's inception and just roll with that. If some other earlier title said something to the contrary of the current idea, then it's time to retcon. Or just ignore whatever was said before an not worry if it makes any sense.

Unlike some writer who is creating a fantasy world they want to write stories about, the world of Elder Scrolls is not the product that ZOS or Bethesda are trying to sell. They are trying to sell us games (and merchandise tied to those games.) The world is not the product itself, just a brand name that helps people find new stuff to buy. Thus internal consistency is not a high priority.

I learned long time ago to deal with all installments, of franchises such as Elder Scrolls, as their own separate unique things. Every game has it's own lore and setting and world. Any continuity or shared elements between games ins incidental and not important. It has made enjoying these things for what they are lot less headache inducing. Which is a shame in a way, since I used to be big into the lore of these sort of fantasy worlds. It's just that none of it really matters to the people who hold power over it. If someone gets a cool idea they think can make money, that doesn't fit the existing "lore", then the lore can just take a hike and that's that.

Obviously the root cause for this particular inconsistency regarding those Ayleid ruins in High Rock, is that they needed stuff in those zones back in 2014, but did not have the budget to create unique assets for them. So out go the Direnni and in come the Ayleids, problem solved. I am actually sortta surprised that they at least bothered to make the distinction between Aldmer and Ayleid ruins in Auridon. You know, by the color of the crystals in those places. Aldmer ruins have orangy yellow hued crystals, while Ayleid have those cold bluish thingies.

But when the time came to add Summerset to the game, they ignored the lore of their own bloody game. They had established that Aldemr ruins had the same general architectural style as Ayleid ruins, but using old assets would not help to boost sales of the expansion, so they just made a completely new tile set for Aldmer ruins in Summerset, that has nothing to do with the ones that exist in Auridon.

So... the weirdness of Ayleid ruins in High Rock just doesn't matter much in the end.

ArchMikem

Ayleid ruins are the game's default "Ancient Elven Ruin", so of course some laziness is going to happen. Even though we now have ancient Aldmeri assets that can be used for Direnni, and ARE used for the Direnni in Summerset.

So yeah, making an Ayleid ruin in Direnni land is weird.

hcbigdogdoghc

Hymzir wrote: »

Obviously the root cause for this particular inconsistency regarding those Ayleid ruins in High Rock, is that they needed stuff in those zones back in 2014, but did not have the budget to create unique assets for them. So out go the Direnni and in come the Ayleids, problem solved. I am actually sortta surprised that they at least bothered to make the distinction between Aldmer and Ayleid ruins in Auridon. You know, by the color of the crystals in those places. Aldmer ruins have orangy yellow hued crystals, while Ayleid have those cold bluish thingies.

But when the time came to add Summerset to the game, they ignored the lore of their own bloody game. They had established that Aldemr ruins had the same general architectural style as Ayleid ruins, but using old assets would not help to boost sales of the expansion, so they just made a completely new tile set for Aldmer ruins in Summerset, that has nothing to do with the ones that exist in Auridon.

So... the weirdness of Ayleid ruins in High Rock just doesn't matter much in the end.

But why make the same mistake they did in 2014 by adding yet another Ayleid ruin in High Rock, using the crappy 2014 assets, when they have the Summerset tile set, or even the nedic ones from Craglorn?

They could had ignored the lore of their own game for High Rock in this dungeon, but they didn't....

idk why ZOS treat Bretons worse than literally any other race, like Bretons are one of the most played races, they have the potential to print money, but ZOS didn't even try.

Olauron

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I'm really confused...

Should there be Ayleid ruins to begin with?

I thought Direnni bred with their slave Nedic and eventually created the Bretons.

Are Direnni Ayleid?

The difference between Ayleid and Direnni is... name. That's it. Both are just Aldmer who were not changed by some external powers (unlike dunmer, bosmer, orsimer). You will not see a difference in appearance of Altmer, Ayleid or Direnni. There may be some cultural difference between Ayleid and Direnni, and there may be not. After all, there are hundreds of Ayleid kingdoms with completely different cultures and beliefs, yet all of them are represented by the same Ayleid ruins with the Auri-el statue (even if their main god is Magnus or Meridia, or Molag Bal, or some insect thing, or whatever they could imagine).

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

There really shouldn't. There are no references to Ayleid in Northwestern Tamriel before ESO at all.

ESO gave us the explanation that some Ayleid fled to High Rock after the Alessians defeated them, which makes sense.

This has nothing to do with ESO at all.
Then in 361, the Alessians gained control of the Empire and enforced the Alessian Doctrines throughout its domain. The Ayleid lordships were abolished. Enforcement of this decree does not appear to have required much direct violence -- it seems that by this point the balance of power was so overwhelmingly against them, and their fate so long foreshadowed, that most of the remaining Ayleids simply left Cyrodiil, eventually being absorbed into the Elven populations of Valenwood and High Rock. Indeed, the rise of the Direnni Hegemony may be linked to this exodus of Ayleids from Cyrodiil (a connection so far little studied by historians).
The Last King of the Ayleids by Herminia Cinna from TES 4: Oblivion (given that Herminia Cinna is an ordinary imperial NPC in the same game, having this book in ESO is lore-breaking, by the way).

Grandchamp1989

Olauron wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I'm really confused...

Should there be Ayleid ruins to begin with?

I thought Direnni bred with their slave Nedic and eventually created the Bretons.

Are Direnni Ayleid?

The difference between Ayleid and Direnni is... name. That's it. Both are just Aldmer who were not changed by some external powers (unlike dunmer, bosmer, orsimer). You will not see a difference in appearance of Altmer, Ayleid or Direnni. There may be some cultural difference between Ayleid and Direnni, and there may be not. After all, there are hundreds of Ayleid kingdoms with completely different cultures and beliefs, yet all of them are represented by the same Ayleid ruins with the Auri-el statue (even if their main god is Magnus or Meridia, or Molag Bal, or some insect thing, or whatever they could imagine).

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

There really shouldn't. There are no references to Ayleid in Northwestern Tamriel before ESO at all.

ESO gave us the explanation that some Ayleid fled to High Rock after the Alessians defeated them, which makes sense.

This has nothing to do with ESO at all.
Then in 361, the Alessians gained control of the Empire and enforced the Alessian Doctrines throughout its domain. The Ayleid lordships were abolished. Enforcement of this decree does not appear to have required much direct violence -- it seems that by this point the balance of power was so overwhelmingly against them, and their fate so long foreshadowed, that most of the remaining Ayleids simply left Cyrodiil, eventually being absorbed into the Elven populations of Valenwood and High Rock. Indeed, the rise of the Direnni Hegemony may be linked to this exodus of Ayleids from Cyrodiil (a connection so far little studied by historians).
The Last King of the Ayleids by Herminia Cinna from TES 4: Oblivion (given that Herminia Cinna is an ordinary imperial NPC in the same game, having this book in ESO is lore-breaking, by the way).

Really interesting, seems like it's not so black and white maybe..

Aliyavana

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

We are finally going to get a dlc dungeon in a Breton zone, after SCP and FL that has nothing to do with Bretons.

And....it's Ayleid

I guess Direnni/Nedic/Breton ruins just don't exist in ZOS's eyes...or more accurately Breton/Direnni lore in general.

ZOS plz stop, these poor Bretons and Direnni are already dead!!!!! What has High Rock done to you:((

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/557953/poor-poor-bretons-the-most-shafted-race-in-eso
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570590/what-beef-do-you-think-zos-has-against-bretons-and-direnni

I agree. Ayleids are everywhere in ESO's version of High Rock. Ayleids are overused, it should have been a direnni ruin underneath, not another Ayleid Ruin

Atharaon

I was discussing this with someone the other day and have come to the conclusion that someone at ZOS must have seen at least something complaining about Ayleids everywhere (especially High Rock) and they decided to keep doing it anyway in reference to some internal joke or just to troll the lore community. It's either that or the writers ignore the forums entirely because they're so convinced of their own vision, but I bet Morrowind wouldn't get the same treatment. When even Lawrence Schick admits there are lore errors (like Dawn Era Ayleids) and ZOS still hasn't fixed it despite it having been brought up with two Loremasters over a number of years, you know they don't really care. It saddens me as a frequent ESO player that I need to overlook such things whenever I end up in pseudo-High Rock.

ealdwin

I guess we're just visiting a variant High Rock that hasn't been pruned yet....

or whatever the TES equivalent of that is

SeaGtGruff

Re: "Lore errors." Todd Howard said that if it appeared onscreen then it's lore. Sorry, I can't find the video-- but he was talking about different levels of lore or canon, and IIRC the highest level was if it appeared onscreen in one of the games. So even if a loremaster "admits" that something was a "lore error," if it did make it into one of the games-- and was approved by Bethesda before making it into one of the games-- then it's lore.