Poor poor Bretons, the most shafted race in ESO.

hcbigdogdoghc

Let's see....

- Absolutely zero worldbuilding in high rock zones. In other zones we met spirits of significant cultural figures of each race (Veloth, Ysgramor, Frandar Hunding, etc), we learned about the culture/religion/beliefs/traditions of each race. Except Bretons, we managed to have 3.5 zones about them and still learned absolutely nothing new about Bretons as a whole, it's actually kind of impressive (hell there are 100x more Ayleid lore in Breton zones than actual Breton lore lol).

- Zero lore addition in the game, ESO adds so many amazing things to the lore, most races got a complete overhaul in terms of lore, even Imperials and Nords got their own old lore back that Oblivion and Skyrim ignored. Not Bretons though, they got nothing, they are still stuck in the Daggerfall era.

- The story for Breton zones have absolutely nothing to do with Bretons, instead they all they got are the generic "kill undead/daedra" story. Look at other zone questlines, the Deshaan questline is directly related to the whole Dunmer good/bad daedra and tribunal thing, the Alik'r/Bangkorai questline is all about Redguard swordsingers and Redguard afterlife, the Wrothgar storyline is all about Orsimer religion/history, literally everything about Grahtwood /Greenshade/Malabal Tor are about Bosmer traditions and mythologies, and Shadowfen/Murkmire is all about the Hist. And look at Breton zone questlines......they are so generic they literally can take place anywhere in Tamriel and the story will still make sense.

- Bretons literally got only ONE building tile set and ONE motif style. Breton are so shafted that Wayrest, the alliance capital, don't even have its own architecture design like Mournhold/Elden Root. Poor Bretons don't even have their own ruins, instead there are Ayleid ruins everywhere in High Rock now.

- Pre-established Breton lore are poorly represented if not outright ignored. The Direnni clan and the Adamantia tower only made a cameo at best and is practically non-existent in the game (Ayleids replaced them for some reason), the knightly orders are barely in the game, the whole game of thrones political Intrigue thing are not represented at all(In fact Bretons got outdone by pretty much every race in ESO when it comes to politics), the whole elven heritage and Bretons worshipping elven gods thing is not brought up at all. And Bretons, the most magical human race, are pretty much only portrayed as generic medieval heavy armored brutes(Bangkorai was especially hilarious, the Imperials/reachmen are out there shooting fireballs, opening portals, and pulling off all these other magical feats. While Bretons need the mage's guild to do anything magical for them).

- Zero dlc content for Bretons 7 years after launch, when even Bosmer got a DLC dungeon in Scalebreaker. In fact Bretons got treated as if they don't even exist at all. First Breton got completely retconned out of north-eastern High Rock(Farrun is an Orc clan now for some reason despite Breton Farrun having existed in the first era), then we got Scalecaller peak and Fang Lair that has nothing to do with Bretons despite located in Breton zones, then Reachmen aka "witchmen of high rock" became their own thing in Markarth instead of a Breton sub-culture, and the last untouched area of High Rock between Wrothgar and the Reach got left out in Markarth with zero chance of being visited like central Elsweyr.

Aliyavana

This thread isnt about gameplay balance, those of you that didnt read the op

adriant1978

Agree with all of the above.

And before anyone says "well Bretons are just a generic human race based on medieval England/France", that's another good reason why ESO is a golden opportunity to build out their lore and make them more unique.

Parasaurolophus

I don't agree with everything. Regular meetings with important spirits is an abuse of lore. Some things are better left in legends. Especially legends. But in many ways, yes, the Bretons turned out to be more boring than other peoples. The worst thing is that ALL BRETONS LOCATIONS ARE ALREADY DONE, which means that we will not get an improvement in their cultures, as happened with other peoples who have dls zones. Wallenwood also has all the locations, but I think we should expect a DLS about Falenesti.

hcbigdogdoghc

BrownChicken wrote: »

I don't agree with everything. Regular meetings with important spirits is an abuse of lore. Some things are better left in legends. Especially legends. But in many ways, yes, the Bretons turned out to be more boring than other peoples. The worst thing is that ALL BRETONS LOCATIONS ARE ALREADY DONE, which means that we will not get an improvement in their cultures, as happened with other peoples who have dls zones. Wallenwood also has all the locations, but I think we should expect a DLS about Falenesti.

Except Breton don't even have legends, they got absolutely nothing.

Was hoping for a "shadow of the hist" dungeon dlc for Bretons, but since they are doing the year long story thing now so that's probably not happening without a Breton chapter(which is impossible )

RemanCyrodiil_I

-

Silaf

Imperials are even more miserable. I was decorating my house and they don't even have some basic furnishings like an imperial chandelier.
Well i guess this will be addressed in the next dlc.

Faiza

Silaf wrote: »

Imperials are even more miserable. I was decorating my house and they don't even have some basic furnishings like an imperial chandelier.
Well i guess this will be addressed in the next dlc.

They do, except it's:

• Only available the crown store
• A recolor of the adjacent Breton furnishings

nukk3r

RemanCyrodiil_I wrote: »

Datamines heavily suggest that we will be getting the Ancestral Breton style with this year's chapter (along with Ancestral Akaviri and Imperial)..

Also Knight of the Circle is essentially a Breton style.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

-Cries in imperial-

TheImperfect

I'd love to see more in terms of Breton content.

YstradClud

I play an AD Breton so I RP more of an Anglo-Norman Breton but I was looking forward to ES6 being about them but apparently its about the Redguards.

VaranisArano

Sure, much like Nords, ESO built very heavily off of what was already established in previous games - that the Breton have a fairly mercantilistic take on generic medical European kingdoms joined together in a loose confederation under a high king. They've been treated pretty generically overall and, if you discount the rumors that ESO is avoiding the Iliac Bay region because TES 6 will take place there, they've been cheated out of more content.

But I do think that you overlook some of the political aspects of the Breton that were brought out in their zones. In particular, Stormhaven, Rivenspire, and Bangkorai all feature those elements. They each are semiautonmous kingdoms, and (much like in AD or EP) we're helping High King Emeric get everyone in line under the Covenant.

In Stormhaven, we see Emeric deal with threats to his own throne and his alliances, driven by Vaermina's dream plots. In Rivenspire, we're dealing with the aftermath of the catastrophic "game of thrones" situation in King Ranser's War, and figuring out how to fix the region before the feuding houses bring it crashing down in ruins yet again. In Bangkorai, we get a look at how yet another kingdom deals with invasion by Reachmen and Imperials as Emeric helps his sister Arzhela step up and hold onto her throne.


Now the above might not be the fustercluck of colliding plots and machinations that TES II Daggerfall fans (or ASOIAF fans) were hoping for, but ESO certainly does present elements of Breton/Iliac Bay politics. Certainly, outside of the Breton zones, we see that Emeric and Maraya are key players in keeping their alliances with the Redguards and Orsimer intact despite Breton opposition to both.

Vevvev

As a long time Breton player I'd love for them to get more love by ZOS! There is a lot of lore and stories about them but they rarely come up in this game, especially the parts including the Direnni Hegemony. Sure there a few crumbs here and there but it's nothing significant and out of the way.

Vlad9425

There’s rumours that TES6 will take place in High Rock so we’ll probably get a lot more lore about Bretons there.

hcbigdogdoghc

Vlad9425 wrote: »

There’s rumours that TES6 will take place in High Rock so we’ll probably get a lot more lore about Bretons there.

TES6 is all but confirmed to be Hammerfell now......

High Rock will probably be shafted once again lol, which is a damn shame as it has huge potential. (High rock is literally a mix of Orlais and Tevinter from dragon age with some elves in the mix)

Lyserus

men overall are way worse presented in lore and ESO world (or should I say, in ES series)

First the look is way too similar (except for redguard) compare to elves, bosmers have height and horns (horns!) to make them stand out even more. Nord, Imperial, Breton, unless you already played and seen a lot of them, you wouldn't tell the difference.

Then the lore, still redguard is the best presented due to their exotic nature, nord came second due to Skyrim, then its imperial with "oh they are roman", and breton the so-called "half elf" but really they are just treated as the most generic human in western fantasy/medieval world

zvavi

Don't the orcs have even less? Only 1 dlc zone, nothing in base game... (I might be mistaken)

VaranisArano

hcbigdogdoghc wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

There’s rumours that TES6 will take place in High Rock so we’ll probably get a lot more lore about Bretons there.

TES6 is all but confirmed to be Hammerfell now......

High Rock will probably be shafted once again lol, which is a damn shame as it has huge potential. (High rock is literally a mix of Orlais and Tevinter from dragon age with some elves in the mix)

I haven't played Dragon Age, but I have to admit that this statement makes me understand one reason why Bethesda might want to look in depth at a relatively underdone TES land and culture as opposed to trying to explore a cultural concept that's been done fairly recently by other popular games.

Greasytengu

Bosmer suffer from alot of the same issues. Base game has already explored 90% of Valenwood. We did learn heaps about Bosmer culture, but mostly because that has never really been explored in any depth before.

Lets look at zone distribution. Only counting Dungeons that have relevance to the race's lore (example: Tempest island and March of sacrifices are loacated in Bosmer zones, but take place somewhere else and are focused on non-bosmer lore)

Altmer: Auridon and Summerset. 1 dungeon (Banished Cells) and 1 trial ( Cloudrest) No potential new zones.

Argonian: Shadowfen and Murkmire, and 1/2 of Bal Foyen. 2 Dungeons, and 1/2 of an arena (Mazzatun, Cradle of Shadows, and 1/2 of Blackrose Prison) massive potential for new zones, can easily count 6 potential zones in that empty corner of the map.

Bosmer: Ghratwood, Greenshade, Malabal tor and 1/2 of Reapers March. They have 4 dungeons (Elden Hollow, City of Ash, Selene's Web, and Lair of Maarselok) No potential new zones.

Breton: Glenumbra, Stormhaven, Rivenspire and 1/2 Bangkorai. Has 1 dungeon (Wayrest sewers) little to no potential for new zones.

Dunmer: Stonefalls, Deshaan, Vvardenfel, Clockwork City and 1/2 of Bal Foyen. 2 dungeons (Darkshade Caverns and Fungal Grotto)and 1 trials (Halls of Fabrication and Asylum Sanctorium) Space for 3-4 potential new zones (Redoran coast, Telvanni peninsula(possibly big enough for 2 zones) and the Sheogorad islands north of Vvardenfell)

Imperial: Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and Gold coast. 4 1/2 dungeons and 1/2 of an arena (White-Gold Tower, Imperial City Prison, Moonhunter keep 1/2 Depths of Malatar, and 1/2 of Blackrose Prison) 3 possible zones (Colovian Highlands + West Weald, Nibenay Basin, and possibly the Blackwoods though that could just as easily be an Argonian zone)

Khajiit: 1/2 of Reapers March, Kenarthi's Roost, Northern Elsweyr, and Southern Elsweyr. 1 dungeon (Moongrave Fane) and 2 trials (Maw of Lorkhaj, and Sunspire) 1 small possible zone (Tanmar forest)

Nord: Bleackrock, Eastmarch, the Rift, Western Skyrim. 4 dungeons (Icereach, Frostvault, Falkreath Hold, Bloodroot Forge, Direfrost Keep) though they feature very heavily in several other that make this borderline 7 (Stone Garden (vampire), Castle Thorn (vampire), Scalecaller Peak (Dragon and Necromancer themes)) 1 trial (Kyne's Aegis) Up to 5 potential new zones (Solstheim, Whiterun hold, the Pale, Winterhold, Falkreath hold though that's unlikely)

Orismer: Wrothgar and Betnikh. no dungeons, trials, or Arenas. No potential new zones.

Redguard: Stros M'kai, Alik'r Desert, 1/2 Bangkorai, Craglorn, and Hew's Bane. has 2 dungeons (Volenfell, Unhallowed Grave) 1 trial (Hel Ra Citiadel) i know Scantum Ophidia and Atherium Archive take place in Craglorn but that are really not Redguard focused. 2-3 potential zones (Khefrem (the coastal region in the south attached to Hew's Bane), the large un named stretch inland that includes the Cities of Taneth and Rihad, and Sunforge which is bordering along Craglorn with the city of Ska'vyn) plus the possibility of many islands under their control in the Acecean Sea.



Well its easy the see who the most shafted race on Nirn is. Fittingly, its the Orcs, the pariah folk.

tomofhyrule

It also depends on whether you're going to count Reachmen as Bretons, since their lore has expanded considerably. Reachmen in game do almost seem to be their own thing.

ESO doesn't have many opportunities to expand on traditional Breton stories since all of High Rock is in the game at this point. I'd love to see some of the political machinations, but like many have said, it's been done in other games. If they ever looked back into games like Daggerfall and really bumped up the Game-of-Thrones feel, it could be fun but would it be new enough?

Greasytengu wrote: »

[snip]

To this, I'd actually remove most of the Nords' dungeons. Bloodroot and Icereach are 100% Reachmen, and they are also the major enemies in Direfrost as well. Frostvault is a Dwemer/Goblin dungeon as well (There are not even any Nords in that dungeon).

Greasytengu wrote: »

Well its easy the see who the most shafted race on Nirn is. Fittingly, its the Orcs, the pariah folk.

And as an Orc main, this makes me sad. Wrothgar is beautiful.

I know everyone's hyped about Hammerfell for TES6, but I really do like the Nord-esque style so I'd love to see them give us a lot of the varied architecture of Hammerfell and not just the Alik'r. Like the Craglorn area, into the Dragontails. In the 4th era, Orsinium moved to the Hammerfell/Skyrim border, so it'd be awesome to see some Orc stuff there as well.

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh. Various Argonian settlements (when combined) would make a small "starter" zone at best. They have DLC dungeon, but only one dungeon is Argonian - themed. So basically Argonians have one base game zone (one of the smallest non-starter), DLC zone and one Argonian - themed dungeon and that is pretty much it.

Bretons have less "DLC" content - but they have significantly more base game content.

Imperials, if you will count huge Cyrodill PvP zone and an IC zone, IC dungeons, and DLC zone (Gold Coast) they have actually quite decent amount of content. Also, it will change soon as most likely this year will be imperial - themed so they will probably get Chapter - size zone + DLC zone + at least one DLC dungeon with imperial theme.

Orcs, have the biggest Chapter - size zone with solo arena & 2 public dungeons and a starter - size zone.

Khajiits on the other hand blew everything out of the water with the amount of content they got so far. I kinda wish all races at some point would have this much zones...

Anyway, since this year will most likely be imperial - themed, the races that will have least content remaining are Argonians, Orcs and Bretons. So one of them is almost certain for 2022 year - long - story. Personally, out of those 3 (being realistic), I would expect to see more Argonian stuff as it has biggest potential to be something new and unique.

Greasytengu wrote: »

Imperial: Cyrodiil, Imperial City, and Gold coast. 4 1/2 dungeons and 1/2 of an arena (White-Gold Tower, Imperial City Prison, Moonhunter keep 1/2 Depths of Malatar, and 1/2 of Blackrose Prison) 3 possible zones (Colovian Highlands + West Weald, Nibenay Basin, and possibly the Blackwoods though that could just as easily be an Argonian zone).

I think that base game dungeon in Shadowfen - Arx Corinium also should count as Imperial - themed content, as basically whole dungeon is an old ruined Imperial Fort.

Greasytengu

tomofhyrule wrote: »

To this, I'd actually remove most of the Nords' dungeons. Bloodroot and Icereach are 100% Reachmen, and they are also the major enemies in Direfrost as well. Frostvault is a Dwemer/Goblin dungeon as well (There are not even any Nords in that dungeon).

I included Bloodroot and Icereach because the Nords are basically the protagonists whereas the reachmen are the enemies. In Direfrost your traipsing around a nordic ruin uncovering the history of a witch hunting Nord family.

I think i put frostvault in there by mistake though.

Theres just alot of Nord elements in so many places where they dont belong. Scalecaller Peak is in Stormhaven, but the main baddie is a Nord dragon priest! Why not just plop scalecaller in Nord territory? In Moongrave Fane one of the leaders of a Khajiiti Vampire clan is a Nord. Like WHY!!

phantasmalD

Greasytengu wrote: »

Well its easy the see who the most shafted race on Nirn is. Fittingly, its the Orcs, the pariah folk.

As a nomadic, itinerant people, orcs have the potential to be anywhere and get their own sub-story in any chapter. Like how they got one on the Greymoor chapter.
From the top of my head they have a stronghold in Deshaan, Grahtwood, Greenshade, Malabal Tor (like 2-3 there), Stormhaven, they got that public dungeon in Rivenspire which imo is one of the more memorable ones, and a pretty significant story chunk in Craglorn. Not sure if I'm forgetting any.

They are kinda shafted in a way as they often end up being the antagonists.
But that kiiiinda makes sense since they are a generally reviled race (just like Reachmen are), who in more racist times are openly persecuted and considered actual monsters, I mean they are called Pariah Folk for a reason. Being able to build Orsinium is a rare boon, and this unprecedented civility is a central part of the DC + Wrothgar storyline.

But yeah, out of all the races Orcs are the ones who always have the potential for new story bits and lore, they could have a stronghold anywhere.



There's always the teeny-tiny, tinsy-binsy chance that ZoS decides to redraw the map to give previously (almost/)fully-mapped areas just a little bit more to explore and re-retcon places from Arena. Very unlikely but there's a chance.

GreenhaloX

Like anything else, you just have to compensate. For mag dd, you have to throw on a pair of increase spell damage monster pieces. Still good with the extra majicka. Also, works good as a magDK tank with the plus in spell resistance.

I'm just wondering why the male are so short?! Ok, I can understand the wood elves being short, and not saying have to be as tall as high elves, but at least have it so the males can be as tall as the Nords. Same with Imperial males; both Breton and Imperial males just look funny as they are short in heights. Currently cannot compensate for the lack of height. There are no stilt boots or something available. Lore or whatever, I'm just so dumbfounded as why they are so short. Really would like the Brets and imperials to be made taller.

Ratzkifal

Greasytengu wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

To this, I'd actually remove most of the Nords' dungeons. Bloodroot and Icereach are 100% Reachmen, and they are also the major enemies in Direfrost as well. Frostvault is a Dwemer/Goblin dungeon as well (There are not even any Nords in that dungeon).

I included Bloodroot and Icereach because the Nords are basically the protagonists whereas the reachmen are the enemies. In Direfrost your traipsing around a nordic ruin uncovering the history of a witch hunting Nord family.

I think i put frostvault in there by mistake though.

Theres just alot of Nord elements in so many places where they dont belong. Scalecaller Peak is in Stormhaven, but the main baddie is a Nord dragon priest! Why not just plop scalecaller in Nord territory? In Moongrave Fane one of the leaders of a Khajiiti Vampire clan is a Nord. Like WHY!!

@Greasytengu That guy, Grundwulf, is not a Nord dragonpriest. He is a Nord who trained with the Greybeards before joining the Imperial Legion and became vampire. Renault, his former friend who served in the military with him, is also a vampire and later becomes one of Tiber Septims generals. Grundwulf and Renault have been waiting for a Dragonborn to unite the Empire and with the Dragons returning (to Elsweyr), Grundwulf thought that this was destiny and he could become that Dragonborn by drinking a dragon's blood.

The reason he had to be a Nord was for the rule of cool. That guy who's obsessed with becoming a dragonborn, needs to have some dragon shouts and the Khajiit don't have anyone teaching Dragonshouts for long enough that people who aren't dragonborn can pick them up over night. So he has to be a Nord vampire who teamed up with some local vampires.

As for Scalecaller, Thurvokun was lore all the way back in Arena and Fanglair just happened to be in High Rock. So naturally the dragonpriest that served him would have to be close by too. Just wait until we find ancient nordic Ruins on the Redoran coast in western Morrowind from the time of the Skyrim conquest. The point is that Nords have already been too integrated into the lore that sometimes it's hard to justify not including them.

Raideen

Dwemer have more going on in game than Breton, and we can't even play dwemer.

Greasytengu

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

To this, I'd actually remove most of the Nords' dungeons. Bloodroot and Icereach are 100% Reachmen, and they are also the major enemies in Direfrost as well. Frostvault is a Dwemer/Goblin dungeon as well (There are not even any Nords in that dungeon).

I included Bloodroot and Icereach because the Nords are basically the protagonists whereas the reachmen are the enemies. In Direfrost your traipsing around a nordic ruin uncovering the history of a witch hunting Nord family.

I think i put frostvault in there by mistake though.

Theres just alot of Nord elements in so many places where they dont belong. Scalecaller Peak is in Stormhaven, but the main baddie is a Nord dragon priest! Why not just plop scalecaller in Nord territory? In Moongrave Fane one of the leaders of a Khajiiti Vampire clan is a Nord. Like WHY!!

@Greasytengu That guy, Grundwulf, is not a Nord dragonpriest. He is a Nord who trained with the Greybeards before joining the Imperial Legion and became vampire. Renault, his former friend who served in the military with him, is also a vampire and later becomes one of Tiber Septims generals. Grundwulf and Renault have been waiting for a Dragonborn to unite the Empire and with the Dragons returning (to Elsweyr), Grundwulf thought that this was destiny and he could become that Dragonborn by drinking a dragon's blood.

The reason he had to be a Nord was for the rule of cool. That guy who's obsessed with becoming a dragonborn, needs to have some dragon shouts and the Khajiit don't have anyone teaching Dragonshouts for long enough that people who aren't dragonborn can pick them up over night. So he has to be a Nord vampire who teamed up with some local vampires.

As for Scalecaller, Thurvokun was lore all the way back in Arena and Fanglair just happened to be in High Rock. So naturally the dragonpriest that served him would have to be close by too. Just wait until we find ancient nordic Ruins on the Redoran coast in western Morrowind from the time of the Skyrim conquest. The point is that Nords have already been too integrated into the lore that sometimes it's hard to justify not including them.

I never called Grundwulf a dragonpriest.

But your missing my main point, there is TOO MUCH Nord just scattered everywhere. Just because the story includes dragons does not mean it has to include Nords.

Nords are boring, even more than the Bretons. Their only defining trait is their height and tolerance for alcohol. They took Vikings and somehow made them lame. Why shoehorn them into every single thing?

I mean they have a disproportionately large amount of Nord themed outfit styles too:
Nord, Ancestral Nord, Draugr, Blackreach Vanguard, Swordthane, Ebonheart pact, Skaal Explorer, Sovenguard Stalwart, Dragonbone (the style given to the people who per-ordered Elsweyr mind you), Horned Dragon, Bloodforge, Scalecaller, hell even the Moongrave Fane style is almost as much nordic as it is Khajiiti (I mean who wears fur in a desert?)

Edit: Snowhawk, the style given to us during the Summerset event is more Nord themed than High elf. Did you see any snow in Summerset? Did you see anyone wearing fur, or leather robes with Celtic designs on it?

Nords are like the racial equivalent to broccoli. We can stand it in small doses, but our parents(ZOS) keep hiding it in everything.

adriant1978

Greasytengu wrote: »

there is TOO MUCH Nord just scattered everywhere. Just because the story includes dragons does not mean it has to include Nords

Sadly, Skyrim and its massive fanbase would probably beg to differ.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Bosmer and bretons are pretty equal in being shafted. They both got most of their land done in the base game with little to nothing to add.

Argonians got Murkmire and Shadowfen. Bal Foyen, Stonefalls and Deeshan is shared with dunmer stuff.

Orcs have...Wrothgar, and Betnikh. Which is a starting zone that was also breton territory back in the day.

Imperials sound like they have a bunch, but almost all of "their zones" are focused on something else. Dark Brotherhood, Daedra, PvP etc. Like 8 out of 10 times they are also enemies/antagonists.

I feel like these are the most shafted races with orcs being the most.

MasterSpatula

Every. Word.