Storytime with Bastian in Normal Dungeons (and why we need a story mode)

ApoAlaia

For as long as dungeon-specific loot is removed from the leveled lists I see having this option as a positive thing.

The stories in many dungeons are interesting but many DLC dungeons even in normal are not within everyone's reach to solo.

Finding a like-minded 'story partner' to duo them may seem like a tall order for some too.

One things is for sure, one has a snowball's chance in hell to convince three other people to pace themselves because one would like to follow the story - more so in dungeons like the OP's example which is already long and laden with mechanics that bring everything to a screeching halt - if they are there to farm gear, which would be the majority of the players who venture there (Tzogvin's is still very much serviceable).

It would even be a taller order if this was a daily random PUG where players only wanted the XP/Crystal reward and found themselves landing in Frostvault of all places.

For as long as ZOS is prepared to devote the resources required to make this happen I don't think it would be detrimental to anyone to have the option available.

Thechuckage

I'm finding the parallels between this and the vet overland discussions quite entertaining.

spartaxoxo

Thechuckage wrote: »

I'm finding the parallels between this and the vet overland discussions quite entertaining.

Vet Overland is different because people often think they should get better or different rewards. I don't think most people object to no-reward hard mode buttons for vet bosses or sliders that just make your own personal experience more difficult without additonal rewards.

What people don't want to see is Vet overland content that splits the playerbase by making Vet Overland rewarding.

Linaleah

ThorianB wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So a few things about this video. I made this video so people can be more aware that they can now see dungeon stories they couldn't before thanks to the companions. And also so that ZOS can see why a story mode in this game is needed.

This video has been edited to remove a large portions of each of the boss fights, most add fights, and a lot of traversal for the sake of time. Afterall it's not to show the mechanics but the story of the dungeon. It's also done on a hero with relatively low dps, but still more than many players who have like 5-10K dps apparently. This character has 20k. I haven't even learned a rotation on it yet.

Despite extensive editing to shorten the length of this dungeon, it's still about 36 minutes long.

Is there any wonder people in a pug don't want to sit around and wait for someone else to do this? And yet, the story is pretty interesting and full of lore! Is there any wonder why players new to the dungeon want to experience it?

And while you can solo them to hear and enjoy it, not all dungeons are able to be done that way. Or are really painful to try. Look at the first boss here. I couldn't have done that prior to the companions and even with it, it was incredibly frustrating. That's a lot of cc and very little opportunity to fight. Group dungeons just aren't built for this kind of thing, nor should they be. A solo story mode with no monster helm or set pieces would be so much better.

Anyway please enjoy the Frostvault story.

https://youtu.be/ubaLwmBeOmg

I agree we need a system that allows us to run dungeons more casually and discourages speed runners and pledge runners from using it, but not a solo mode.

We have that it's called normal mode. And you see exactly how it turns out when someome wants to quest and someone else wants to farm.

I don't know how you expect to have a mode where you can do whatever you want and listen to the other npcs while forcing everyone else to follow you around without talking.

No we don't because ZOS made several mistakes that led to "normal" being hijacked by pledge runners and people looking for dungeon rewards. Ive ran many dungeons with groups that were casual and we all hang our and chill and run it casually no one is in a hurry no one cares about someone else not pulling enough DPS, we dont complain about wipes or whine about how long it is taking. All you have to do is remove that group of toxic players that are there for selfish reasons and don't care why anyone else is there all they care about is ME ME ME. And that can be done without making a solo mode.

I will always be against making more of the game solo even though i mostly play solo or with one other person. And solo story dungeons aren't necessary. I much rather them fix dungeons so that casual runners don't have to deal with speed runners. That would benefit far more people than a solo story mode.

except. even when running with group of friends, it was still far from ideal due to all the factors i have described in a prior post, but let me reiterate.

someone still always feels rushed. someone is always waiting. someone misses npc interaction because they are triggered by proximity and you may not be there when someone else gets to close. not one person has the exact same pace or pays attention in the same way.

best case scenario that I had in pugs is that people waited for me to progress the quest, but solely for the purposes of getting a skill point. not for enjoyment of the story. as in.. there were always limits to how long people would wait.

spartaxoxo

Linaleah wrote: »

best case scenario that I had in pugs is that people waited for me to progress the quest, but solely for the purposes of getting a skill point. not for enjoyment of the story. as in.. there were always limits to how long people would wait.

Yup. That's why I also read the notes I managed to find. People can skip that part of the video if they'd like but I lingered on notes for a few seconds because I never got to read them until I could solo.

Some people would wait for you to quickly skip through the dialogue so you could get your skill point. But they weren't trying to be for double the time of normal because you wanted to hear the audio.

People really ought to watch the videos to see just how much dialogue is being missed. It's a lot. Most of the runtime of that video is just cutscenes and dialogue boxes.

Thechuckage

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thechuckage wrote: »

I'm finding the parallels between this and the vet overland discussions quite entertaining.

Vet Overland is different because people often think they should get better or different rewards. I don't think most people object to no-reward hard mode buttons for vet bosses or sliders that just make your own personal experience more difficult without additonal rewards.

What people don't want to see is Vet overland content that splits the playerbase by making Vet Overland rewarding.

Story mode receiving no rewards was objectionable (agreed) but reduced rewards was agreeable.

Easier content, less rewards with the corollary of harder content receives greater reward. I would simply like to see some consistency in the argumentation.

spartaxoxo

Thechuckage wrote: »

Easier content, less rewards with the corollary of harder content receives greater reward.

And that's the problem that people have with people who want Vet Overland. Some kind of content that you can get ALL of the rewards and associated achievements even when you're new is vital to the health of the game. If you cater all of it to established players you get a shrinking community with the gap between new and old ever increasing.

Right now Overland is the newbie's thing. So any plan to augment it should include changes that ensure that's not undermined.

So not separate instances or better rewards. But stuff like a hard mode toggle to fight a harder boss with the only difference being purple drops and increased exp wouldn't be objectionable.

This same consistent principle is also why I wouldn't be in favor of a solo story mode to have drops.

No drops or unique rewards for either mode ensures that they don't undermine existing content for the primary playerbase they are aimed at. In the case of storymode that's groups and in the case of vet overland it's new players.

My position is very consistent. These optional QOL changes for immersion should not come with rewards, so as not to undermine existing content.

ADarklore

It still amazes me that people keep saying "this is an MMO" when in reality, it has NEVER been a traditional MMO... in fact, when it tried, at launch, it was such a failure the game almost went under. Even Brian discussed how bad it was in the beginning and how it had no clear definition... and most of the players playing it were NOT MMO players but were Elder Scrolls players wanting "Skyrim with friends". So then came One Tamriel, and it was their plan to make it "Skyrim with friends". Even internally, Matt Firor stated in an interview they consider ESO to be an "online RPG with MMO elements".

So for people who keep saying, "this is an MMO"... it's clearly NOT.

Which brings me to the original post... YES, every dungeon that is associated with a story should have a 'story mode' that can be completed solo so that players can enjoy the story but not include the usual drops associated with the more difficult group version.

In fact, another topic, IMO every group dungeon should be made to be soloable, as in removing all the 'pressure plates', so that they can be completed solo if properly equipped and skilled.

newtinmpls

Wow, I love this, thank you so much

Artim_X

At minimum companions should be able to do group mechanics like interrupt, pull levers, stand on platforms, etc. A change like that would allow all dungeons to technically be soloable.

At this point in time a straight up story mode would also be nice considering how often people complain about players rushing through dungeons (your mileage may vary). I agree that this version of a dungeon should not reward set pieces if it were implemented.

Rick_S1

I am now doing a lot more with my healer than I had been previously.

Kwoung

Luckylancer wrote: »

Whatever, when will we talk about veteran overland and veteran questing content?

/glances at pinned threads

Kwoung

I don't know if storymode is the answer, although if it basically only rewarded the XP for doing the story quest and killing whatever incredibly easy mobs they used for it, then sure. Set gear, treasure chests, heavy sacks... all should be removed, if it is really about just wanting to do the story and not some veiled attempt to be able to complete content meant for a group (yes, I know lots of us can solo it).

Alternatively, they could add a Story Group queue to each dungeon, but I would guess that the queue would take days, unless they removes the role requirements from it... and even then it would still be a long wait. Which if true, would pretty much prove how many folks are actually interested in doing this.

Also, keep in mind that story mode is pretty much a one time deal per character (maybe account). You went, you saw, you left, there should really be no reason to ever do it again in storymode. So that is a considerable development effort for something that a small subset of players will do once. I say small, because almost no one I have ever met in a MMO really takes the time to enjoy the entire story, most simply click through the dialog to start the next step, and many are actually fine doing it with a pre-made in the real version of the dungeon, because the difficulty is actually part of the story. That said, if it was available, I might go back through some of them, just to see what I missed.

I suppose it could even be argued, that for the best story experience, being as the antagonists are supposed to be these big bad powerful evil dudes most of the time... doing it on vet hard mode is the only way to really engage in the story. Its not much of a story when the bad guy dies when you sneeze in his general direction... just sayin.

Facefister

I am ok with a story mode as long as they don't drop gear, title and skins.

spartaxoxo

Facefister wrote: »

I am ok with a story mode as long as they don't drop gear, title and skins.

Agreed. Gear, titles, and skins are absolute no-gos.

I don't see why stuff that isn't exclusive to dungeons shouldn't be there like whatever you'd find in a public dungeon, but not the group rewards.

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

I say small, because almost no one I have ever met in a MMO really takes the time to enjoy the entire story, most simply click through the dialog to start the next step, and many are actually fine doing it with a pre-made in the real version of the dungeon, because the difficulty is actually part of the story. That said, if it was available, I might go back through some of them, just to see what I missed.

The devs themselves have said that the story is by far the most used and liked content in this game and that the vast majority of players play it for the story.

What would you say players want today?

Lambert: The vast majority of our player base loves the exploration, loves the lore, loves the story side of things. So we focus a lot of our time and effort on that. Two of our four major updates every year are focused on story and exploration. The other two are focused on quality of life, are focused on group-oriented activities with the dungeons or adding new systems.

It goes against the devs vision for the game so it will probably never happen, but regardless the devs themselves have confirmed the vast majority of players in this game enjoy the story.

Kwoung wrote: »

I suppose it could even be argued, that for the best story experience, being as the antagonists are supposed to be these big bad powerful evil dudes most of the time... doing it on vet hard mode is the only way to really engage in the story. Its not much of a story when the bad guy dies when you sneeze in his general direction... just sayin.

Story mode is so everyone can hear the story. Vet players looking for a challenge can already solo normal, as I demonstrated in the video.

spartaxoxo

Anyway while this would be my ideal. Now that I have played with companions more I think they could just make the companions able to help you out with the few multiplayer mechs in the game like stand on pressure plates. Then people could just stick with soloing normal

Kwoung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The devs themselves have said that the story is by far the most used and liked content in this game and that the vast majority of players play it for the story.

What would you say players want today?

Lambert: The vast majority of our player base loves the exploration, loves the lore, loves the story side of things. So we focus a lot of our time and effort on that. Two of our four major updates every year are focused on story and exploration. The other two are focused on quality of life, are focused on group-oriented activities with the dungeons or adding new systems.

It goes against the devs vision for the game so it will probably never happen, but regardless the devs themselves have confirmed the vast majority of players in this game enjoy the story.

Yes, in any game that offers a story/quest that rewards experience, the players engage with it. That however, is not indicative of how "into it" the players are. ZOS can measure clicks, how many folks clicked this quest mob, how many have completed the quest. They can choose to interpret that as everyone loved the story or loves doing stories, but that would not be true. It simply says that folks love making XP, receiving rewards, and they also love having something to do... unlike a sandbox MMO, in which you have to makeup and feed yourself such things, and players like me get bored of them fairly quickly and return to games in which I am fed things to do/achieve.

I have done almost every overland quests in the game, for the story quests I actually blew through them to just level up and get my skill points, as have most of the folks I know. For the side quests, I am actually reading some of them now, but it is mostly about completion and something to do, not because I am into the story or lore that much. By ZOS's logic, I must love stories and exploration, I have done almost all of them... but that is simply not true. Granted, ESO seems to have many more players into the lore than other MMO's, but unless you unlink XP and rewards from stories, you will have no idea how many folks really care about just the story.

The fact that they also sell "Story Skips" in the crown store, kinda supports this. If everyone loved all those lines so much the first time, why not do it again and again? Well because, we didn't and it was a huge slog we never want to go through again.

spartaxoxo

Kwoung wrote: »

The fact that they also sell "Story Skips" in the crown store, kinda supports this. If everyone loved all those lines so much the first time, why not do it again and again? Well because, we didn't and it was a huge slog we never want to go through again.

They can tell who's just skipping everything really fast and who's actually listening/reading. Many many people listen to the story the first time around and then skip it for alts.

Elder Scrolls is a pretty story loving fandom.

Kwoung

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

The fact that they also sell "Story Skips" in the crown store, kinda supports this. If everyone loved all those lines so much the first time, why not do it again and again? Well because, we didn't and it was a huge slog we never want to go through again.

They can tell who's just skipping everything really fast and who's actually listening/reading. Many many people listen to the story the first time around and then skip it for alts.

Elder Scrolls is a pretty story loving fandom.

I totally get that, but that is actually not normal MMO player behavior. ESO also happens to be one of the "Last men standing" in the AAA MMO realm, so the folks here are far from simply being Elder Scrolls fans, many/most are just MMO fans. Current surveys I heard about (not a fact I saw first hand), actually show that it has been so long since a decent MMO was released, that most players who enjoy the genre, have played most or all of them at this point, and somewhat regularly flip back and forth between them to keep from burning out. New Worlds release was agreat example of how badly folks wanted a new title, too bad they screwed it up and are bleeding players now.

And to be clear, as I mentioned previously, I totally support a Story Mode for dungeons or anything else for that matter... except Cyrodiil/IC.

peacenote

Linaleah wrote: »

honestly it feels like people are insecure about "no one is going to run group dungeons anymore" as if people who would utilize these mode the most are the people who are right now repeatedly running dungeons AND are people with the kind of performance these naysayers actualy want to see in their groups. (answer is - they are not. these are the people that normally dungeon runners rant about)

At this point, for me it is about two things.

1-- Resources and performance: There are tons of things that would be "nice to have." Do I mind if we get this feature? No. Do I think that doing this is the best use of limited dev time, when to me it is basically a slightly easier version of normal dungeons? Will a large portion of the community benefit more from this than new features and content? I don't think so. Is it worth potential performance to have the servers hosting many solo/story instances? Also no (imo).

2-- Community tolerance: I like to do the quest stories on my alts. I like how the skill points are given through the quests. I can't imagine how much more difficult it would be to do quests in the dungeons if there is a story mode. Devs would really have to change all the dungeon quests to "completion" only because the patient people do have for the questers would be completely gone. And, this is adds more work to the #1 bucket.

Earlier in the game's timeline I might have thought differently, but normals are so easy now with power creep I just feel that resources would be better spent elsewhere.

I DO think they should stop making the dungeon stories be tied to the yearlong arc... but that's a different post.

AlnilamE

Make a story mode that gets unlocked by running the dungeon on Normal (or Vet) first. Then you get a repeatable story mode and if there are any things that require another player, there's an NPC that joins you to step on plates or whatnot.

TheImperfect

Just wanted to say many thanks for doing this, I will watch later as I am outside right now.

roqueforty

yeah, that's why i'm STILL reluctant to run newer dungeons.

spartaxoxo

https://youtu.be/_P0scyLwz7s

A new story mode dungeon, this time Moongrave Fane/

Also I didn't include all the boss deaths I had in here. But I died once to the first boss, like 5 times to the second to last boss, and I did include the one time I died at the last boss just because the dialogue was interesting, IMO. The other ones didn't have any that I hadn't heard during the successful attempts, so I didn't bother to include those deaths as this meant to showcase the story, not the combat. The combat once again is largely edited out.

TheImperfect

spartaxoxo wrote: »

https://youtu.be/_P0scyLwz7s

A new story mode dungeon, this time Moongrave Fane/

Also I didn't include all the boss deaths I had in here. But I died once to the first boss, like 5 times to the second to last boss, and I did include the one time I died at the last boss just because the dialogue was interesting, IMO. The other ones didn't have any that I hadn't heard during the successful attempts, so I didn't bother to include those deaths as this meant to showcase the story, not the combat. The combat once again is largely edited out.

Thanks so much ❤️

Necrotech_Master

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I figured I'd do depths of Malatar too since I had done Frostvault. Might as well do the whole Wrathstone dlc since it's connected to the storyline of Elysweyr.

A lot of people blame only Abnur for what happened in Elysweyr because all they did was the prologue. But actually Abnur didn't even become interested in the Wrathstone until Tharayya unearthed it despite knowing that the Ayelids and Dwarves went to such drastic lengths to keep them sealed. The Wrathstone hadn't been seen for a thousand years. She dismissed concerns about digging it up and was mostly concerned about proving herself to be a great scholar.

i know its late to the party, but technically your interactions with tharayya started in volenfell (which is also where you inadvertently kill quintus who also reappears in depths of malatar)

im not entirely sure if your interactions with her there have any relation with the wrathstone dungeons though

spartaxoxo

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I figured I'd do depths of Malatar too since I had done Frostvault. Might as well do the whole Wrathstone dlc since it's connected to the storyline of Elysweyr.

A lot of people blame only Abnur for what happened in Elysweyr because all they did was the prologue. But actually Abnur didn't even become interested in the Wrathstone until Tharayya unearthed it despite knowing that the Ayelids and Dwarves went to such drastic lengths to keep them sealed. The Wrathstone hadn't been seen for a thousand years. She dismissed concerns about digging it up and was mostly concerned about proving herself to be a great scholar.

i know its late to the party, but technically your interactions with tharayya started in volenfell (which is also where you inadvertently kill quintus who also reappears in depths of malatar)

im not entirely sure if your interactions with her there have any relation with the wrathstone dungeons though

I was speaking moreso about her responsibility to the Dragon event in Elsweyr moreso than meeting her in the dungeons. Her dialogue does indeed change and I included the changes when able in the videos, if you're curious to see how

IsharaMeradin

I like the idea of a solo story mode. I even think that some rewards should be given, skill point included. But that said, it should be a one and done deal. Do it once on a character and it cannot be done again on that character. After all, the point of the dungeons are to group up to complete them.

Necrotech_Master

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I figured I'd do depths of Malatar too since I had done Frostvault. Might as well do the whole Wrathstone dlc since it's connected to the storyline of Elysweyr.

A lot of people blame only Abnur for what happened in Elysweyr because all they did was the prologue. But actually Abnur didn't even become interested in the Wrathstone until Tharayya unearthed it despite knowing that the Ayelids and Dwarves went to such drastic lengths to keep them sealed. The Wrathstone hadn't been seen for a thousand years. She dismissed concerns about digging it up and was mostly concerned about proving herself to be a great scholar.

i know its late to the party, but technically your interactions with tharayya started in volenfell (which is also where you inadvertently kill quintus who also reappears in depths of malatar)

im not entirely sure if your interactions with her there have any relation with the wrathstone dungeons though

I was speaking moreso about her responsibility to the Dragon event in Elsweyr moreso than meeting her in the dungeons. Her dialogue does indeed change and I included the changes when able in the videos, if you're curious to see how

ive probably heard them before doing the dungeons numerous times lol

i do like when they include stuff like that (extra or different dialog options), i know there are some contacts in some zones which vary their dialog depending on your characters race too (like high elf characters in summerset for one)