Storytime with Bastian in Normal Dungeons (and why we need a story mode)

spartaxoxo

So a few things about this video. I made this video so people can be more aware that they can now see dungeon stories they couldn't before thanks to the companions. And also so that ZOS can see why a story mode in this game is needed.

This video has been edited to remove a large portions of each of the boss fights, most add fights, and a lot of traversal for the sake of time. Afterall it's not to show the mechanics but the story of the dungeon. It's also done on a hero with relatively low dps, but still more than many players who have like 5-10K dps apparently. This character has 20k. I haven't even learned a rotation on it yet.

Despite extensive editing to shorten the length of this dungeon, it's still about 36 minutes long.

Is there any wonder people in a pug don't want to sit around and wait for someone else to do this? And yet, the story is pretty interesting and full of lore! Is there any wonder why players new to the dungeon want to experience it?

And while you can solo them to hear and enjoy it, not all dungeons are able to be done that way. Or are really painful to try. Look at the first boss here. I couldn't have done that prior to the companions and even with it, it was incredibly frustrating. That's a lot of cc and very little opportunity to fight. Group dungeons just aren't built for this kind of thing, nor should they be. A solo story mode with no monster helm or set pieces would be so much better.

Anyway please enjoy the Frostvault story.

https://youtu.be/ubaLwmBeOmg

Edit:

Since making this thread I have also added more dungeons.

Depths of Malatar
https://youtu.be/n1-AlwU7-OM

Moongrave Fane
https://youtu.be/_P0scyLwz7s

Lair of Maarselok
https://youtu.be/_egtZv-UUKI

Icereach
https://youtu.be/UecPQLGWVQk

Castle Thorn
https://youtu.be/LtiMvaeWoKY

Stone Garden
https://youtu.be/tdYFx6sJm3M

The Cauldron

https://youtu.be/204ON9gDVZY

Black Drake Villa

https://youtu.be/VbIPUCSPTMw

Dread Cellar
https://youtu.be/P4TTP5Ta9pA

Red Petal Bastian
https://youtu.be/22rcunqJrpw

Coral Aerie

https://youtu.be/d0LW2L45_ss

Shipwright's Regret

https://youtu.be/ps8jLnDobdk

Earthen Root Enclave
https://youtu.be/3BSAAM2rY7g

Graven Deep
https://youtu.be/LIHdSFzU2lM

Scrivener's Hall
https://youtu.be/qLlaiWFNfxk?si=PWa-VY5Xv4yu24cp

Bal Sunnar
https://youtu.be/cjJfNNUoNGk?si=2NoZlOwvhAPNTtbD

Oathsworn Pit
https://youtu.be/zTE8Mz4aKsw?si=Jf9Aq9Is3C0RppYQ

Paulytnz

Solo-able Dungeons with companions via a new "Story Mode"?

Sure sign me on.

spartaxoxo

Paulytnz wrote: »

Solo-able Dungeons with companions via a new "Story Mode"?

Sure sign me on.

Yes. Please! Many dungeons wouldn't even need huge changes. Look at how much more atmospheric this dungeon is when you here the entire story! The crew adds flavor! Landel and his points about goblins are actually insightful points for TES lore. He's basically comparing goblins to cavemen that are gettting wiped out constantly due to racism and greed!

The additonal story absolutely makes this dungeon feel so much better. It even enhances mechanics! The skeevaton fight is much less annoying when you understand the narrative purpose it serves.

majulook

I might be OK with this Storybook mode ONLY if they did not drop any gear from the dungeons and not give credit for Undaunted skill line or Undaunted rewards.

I believe if you want the gear, skill line, or rewards you should do normal or vet not storybook mode.

spartaxoxo

majulook wrote: »

I might be OK with this Storybook mode ONLY if they did not drop any gear from the dungeons and not give credit for Undaunted skill line or Undaunted rewards.

I believe if you want the gear, skill line, or rewards you should do normal or vet not storybook mode.

I don't understand why it shouldn't give Undaunted skill line credit. You can get that credit from doing delves and buying drinks for the Undaunted npcs. It already doesn't come only from group dungeons and it's in fact possible to max that skill line without ever completing one. Even in a solo mode these would be harder than the delves, so there's no reason the harder content shouldn't count for skill line credit. Less than the group mode sure but at least as much as a delve. A level 2 in no armor can beat the delves.

Agree about the set drops though, as I already mentioned in the opening post.

majulook

spartaxoxo wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

I might be OK with this Storybook mode ONLY if they did not drop any gear from the dungeons and not give credit for Undaunted skill line or Undaunted rewards.

I believe if you want the gear, skill line, or rewards you should do normal or vet not storybook mode.

I don't understand why it shouldn't give Undaunted skill line credit. You can get that credit from doing delves and buying drinks for the Undaunted npcs. It already doesn't come only from group dungeons and it's in fact possible to max that skill line without ever completing one. Even in a solo mode these would be harder than the delves, so there's no reason the harder content shouldn't count for skill line credit. Less than the group mode sure but at least as much as a delve. A level 2 in no armor can beat the delves.

Agree about the set drops though, as I already mentioned in the opening post.

I am just stating what I think is the way a Storybook mode should be done. It appears to me the purpose is want to make it easier than normal. So no Dungeon gear drops, Undaunted skill line, or rewards should be given. If you want those thing Do the normal or vet versions.

As far credit from doing delves and buying drinks for the Undaunted npcs, that is pretty limited and i ma sure its only Public dungeon group event bosses that give the rewards and only 1 time per dungeon per character.

Normal Dungeons and even Trials are not that hard to do. If you are are saying players are not waiting for them to do the story, I can understand your frustration. The answer to that is simple, join a guild and do the content with the guild, or get some friends to do the content.

Lots of guilds are really welcoming to players who want to host doing Dungeons and Trails so guild members who normally would not do that content can get the story and reward drops.

Not to be mean, snarky, trying to start a argument, or make you feel bad. But ESO is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game (MMORPG), and a very social game. If that's not what your experiencing or you want play it with no other players. I can understand that but the content is for everyone. Easy mode, Storybook mode, Solo mode what ever you want to call it. If its not the Normal / Vet Dungeon or Trial mode, than you should not reap any of the rewards that are given out in Normal or Vet modes.

spartaxoxo

majulook wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

I might be OK with this Storybook mode ONLY if they did not drop any gear from the dungeons and not give credit for Undaunted skill line or Undaunted rewards.

I believe if you want the gear, skill line, or rewards you should do normal or vet not storybook mode.

I don't understand why it shouldn't give Undaunted skill line credit. You can get that credit from doing delves and buying drinks for the Undaunted npcs. It already doesn't come only from group dungeons and it's in fact possible to max that skill line without ever completing one. Even in a solo mode these would be harder than the delves, so there's no reason the harder content shouldn't count for skill line credit. Less than the group mode sure but at least as much as a delve. A level 2 in no armor can beat the delves.

Agree about the set drops though, as I already mentioned in the opening post.

I am just stating what I think is the way a Storybook mode should be done. It appears to me the purpose is want to make it easier than normal. So no Dungeon gear drops, Undaunted skill line, or rewards should be given. If you want those thing Do the normal or vet versions.

The purpose is to hear the story. That's it. Not to do an easier version. Socialize during a cutscene? You want to bring people in to shutup for an extra 40 minutes? How on earth is that social?

It's not. That's why a LOT of mmos have implemented story modes for dungeons so people can view the cutscenes. ESO is behaving the opposite MMOs by encouraging anti-social behavior.

The delve dailies are NOT one time content. You're talking about punishing people for daring to do solo content in a skill line that can be levelled completely alone. What sense does that make?

It's one thing to say people shouldn't get group rewards like drops. It's another thing to say people shouldn't get their content associated exp. That's just vindictive imo. The complete opposite of good game design.

No skill point or set drops is fine. That's a reward for doing group content. Exp is NOT. It's awarded for everything you do, including things solo.

The UNDAUNTED skill line is NOT group content. It is both solo and group. So punishing people by removing all their exp for doing it solo makes no sense.

The delve dailies are not one time content. You can get level 10 without ever touching group content. It's a solo skill line. It's not limited at all.

Linaleah

spartaxoxo wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

I might be OK with this Storybook mode ONLY if they did not drop any gear from the dungeons and not give credit for Undaunted skill line or Undaunted rewards.

I believe if you want the gear, skill line, or rewards you should do normal or vet not storybook mode.

I don't understand why it shouldn't give Undaunted skill line credit. You can get that credit from doing delves and buying drinks for the Undaunted npcs. It already doesn't come only from group dungeons and it's in fact possible to max that skill line without ever completing one. Even in a solo mode these would be harder than the delves, so there's no reason the harder content shouldn't count for skill line credit. Less than the group mode sure but at least as much as a delve. A level 2 in no armor can beat the delves.

Agree about the set drops though, as I already mentioned in the opening post.

I am just stating what I think is the way a Storybook mode should be done. It appears to me the purpose is want to make it easier than normal. So no Dungeon gear drops, Undaunted skill line, or rewards should be given. If you want those thing Do the normal or vet versions.

The purpose is to hear the story. That's it. Not to do an easier version. Socialize during a cutscene? You want to bring people in to shutup for an extra 40 minutes? How on earth is that social?

It's not. That's why a LOT of mmos have implemented story modes for dungeons so people can view the cutscenes. ESO is behaving the opposite MMOs by encouraging anti-social behavior.

The delve dailies are NOT one time content. You're talking about punishing people for daring to do solo content in a skill line that can be levelled completely alone. What sense does that make?

It's one thing to say people shouldn't get group rewards like drops. It's another thing to say people shouldn't get their content associated exp. That's just vindictive imo. The complete opposite of good game design.

No skill point or set drops is fine. That's a reward for doing group content. Exp is NOT. It's awarded for everything you do, including things solo.

The UNDAUNTED skill line is NOT group content. It is both solo and group. So punishing people by removing all their exp for doing it solo makes no sense.

The delve dailies are not one time content. You can get level 10 without ever touching group content. It's a solo skill line. It's not limited at all.

yeah, the irony is that completing the dungeon is a one time undaunted rewards while daily delves are well.. daily. maybe they are thinking of pledges? and even then, amount of undaunted points you get for a pledge is the same whether you do it on normal, vet or hardmode. other rewards differ. so heck, remove the undaunted key from a reward pool if pledge is completed on solo mode? don't count it for pledge even at all? there are separate undaunted achievements associated with doing things on vet vs normal already. remove gear sets from solo dungeon, helms already do not drop in normal.

honestly it feels like people are insecure about "no one is going to run group dungeons anymore" as if people who would utilize these mode the most are the people who are right now repeatedly running dungeons AND are people with the kind of performance these naysayers actualy want to see in their groups. (answer is - they are not. these are the people that normally dungeon runners rant about)

spartaxoxo

Linaleah wrote: »

lhonestly it feels like people are insecure about "no one is going to run group dungeons anymore" as if people who would utilize these mode the most are the people who are right now repeatedly running dungeons AND are people with the kind of performance these naysayers actualy want to see in their groups. (answer is - they are not. these are the people that normally dungeon runners rant about)

I agree. I understand it not being part of the pledge or it not having group drops to address those concerns. But people get really over the top with it. Which is weird because then many of the same people trying to hamstring me into listening to the story in their guilds are also the people that get angry if I rush through a pledge, even when I stop at every before boss because they were trying to do the quest.

Separating dialogue and farming seems like such an obvious solution. If you want to hear the npcs you want to take your time and don't want other players talking to you. If you want to farm gear with a good group or do a daily, you're looking to go as fast as possible.

Instead of having these two groups namecalling each other and running to guildmates to drag them through chores, why not just have separate game modes for story and farming?

Many other MMOs have realized the obvious sense in that and it makes people more willing to group up, not less. Because competiting and incompatible goals no longer cause bad feelings. It increases player harmony.

Not every single last piece of content in an MMO is conducive to grouping. And that's okay. Listening to an npc talk is not something that's great for groups.

Luckylancer

Looks cool. I think the main pain point of story mode supporters is they want to play with their own rythm. 4 people who want to listen every dialogue and fool around at every corner will raeraly, very very rarely, be in same party. Therefore a story mode will enable a new way to play for casuals.

Cons: If the rewards wont be reduced appropriately, everyone will start playing story mode to get what they want (undaunted/gear). They will be forced into it because they are players, they have to get from point A to point B by shortest route.

Whatever, when will we talk about veteran overland and veteran questing content?

spartaxoxo

Luckylancer wrote: »

Looks cool. I think the main pain point of story mode supporters is they want to play with their own rythm. 4 people who want to listen every dialogue and fool around at every corner will raeraly, very very rarely, be in same party. Therefore a story mode will enable a new way to play for casuals.

Cons: If the rewards wont be reduced appropriately, everyone will start playing story mode to get what they want (undaunted/gear). They will be forced into it because they are players, they have to get from point A to point B by shortest route.

Whatever, when will we talk about veteran overland and veteran questing content?

I agree.This is why I don't think it should give credit for pledges or drop set pieces. I do think the first time you do it, it should count for some small amount of Undaunted skill line credit. No different than the public dungeons. But that's about as rewarding as it should get. No gear sets, no skill point, no keys or transmute crystals. Should be about on par with the rewards of doing a delve, minus the 5pc gear sets.

I don't want people to do it because it's rewarding, but because they want to hear the story. I don't want middle finger type punishments like no exp but doing it on normal group should still be superior for rewards.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN

majulook wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

I might be OK with this Storybook mode ONLY if they did not drop any gear from the dungeons and not give credit for Undaunted skill line or Undaunted rewards.

I believe if you want the gear, skill line, or rewards you should do normal or vet not storybook mode.

I don't understand why it shouldn't give Undaunted skill line credit. You can get that credit from doing delves and buying drinks for the Undaunted npcs. It already doesn't come only from group dungeons and it's in fact possible to max that skill line without ever completing one. Even in a solo mode these would be harder than the delves, so there's no reason the harder content shouldn't count for skill line credit. Less than the group mode sure but at least as much as a delve. A level 2 in no armor can beat the delves.

Agree about the set drops though, as I already mentioned in the opening post.

I am just stating what I think is the way a Storybook mode should be done. It appears to me the purpose is want to make it easier than normal. So no Dungeon gear drops, Undaunted skill line, or rewards should be given. If you want those thing Do the normal or vet versions.

As far credit from doing delves and buying drinks for the Undaunted npcs, that is pretty limited and i ma sure its only Public dungeon group event bosses that give the rewards and only 1 time per dungeon per character.

Normal Dungeons and even Trials are not that hard to do. If you are are saying players are not waiting for them to do the story, I can understand your frustration. The answer to that is simple, join a guild and do the content with the guild, or get some friends to do the content.

Lots of guilds are really welcoming to players who want to host doing Dungeons and Trails so guild members who normally would not do that content can get the story and reward drops.

Not to be mean, snarky, trying to start a argument, or make you feel bad. But ESO is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game (MMORPG), and a very social game. If that's not what your experiencing or you want play it with no other players. I can understand that but the content is for everyone. Easy mode, Storybook mode, Solo mode what ever you want to call it. If its not the Normal / Vet Dungeon or Trial mode, than you should not reap any of the rewards that are given out in Normal or Vet modes.

Not saying I disagree but ESO isn't a traditional MMO and even the game director said the game isn't really an MMO in a recent interview. Yes it is all online with a massive player base and yes there is a lot of group content but the game can also be played almost 100% solo as is with the exception of trials and dungeons. Story mode just helps the more casual audience experience the game more and giving them gear as rewards should be a part of it. The mindset of "they shouldn't get gear for having an easier time" needs to go. Normal dungeons give the same gear as veteran dungeons excluding monster sets so people who don't care about monster sets can get the gear they want just as easily as people who do it on veteran. If a story mode was added maybe a compromise could be made and story mode doesn't drop weapons or jewelry or maybe vet dungeons start getting the trials and arenas treatment with perfected sets. Anyways I am all for a story mode and giving gear to the more casual players as this is a game for everyone to enjoy.

spartaxoxo

https://youtu.be/n1-AlwU7-OM

I figured I'd do depths of Malatar too since I had done Frostvault. Might as well do the whole Wrathstone dlc since it's connected to the storyline of Elysweyr.

A lot of people blame only Abnur for what happened in Elysweyr because all they did was the prologue. But actually Abnur didn't even become interested in the Wrathstone until Tharayya unearthed it despite knowing that the Ayelids and Dwarves went to such drastic lengths to keep them sealed. The Wrathstone hadn't been seen for a thousand years. She dismissed concerns about digging it up and was mostly concerned about proving herself to be a great scholar.

ThorianB

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So a few things about this video. I made this video so people can be more aware that they can now see dungeon stories they couldn't before thanks to the companions. And also so that ZOS can see why a story mode in this game is needed.

This video has been edited to remove a large portions of each of the boss fights, most add fights, and a lot of traversal for the sake of time. Afterall it's not to show the mechanics but the story of the dungeon. It's also done on a hero with relatively low dps, but still more than many players who have like 5-10K dps apparently. This character has 20k. I haven't even learned a rotation on it yet.

Despite extensive editing to shorten the length of this dungeon, it's still about 36 minutes long.

Is there any wonder people in a pug don't want to sit around and wait for someone else to do this? And yet, the story is pretty interesting and full of lore! Is there any wonder why players new to the dungeon want to experience it?

And while you can solo them to hear and enjoy it, not all dungeons are able to be done that way. Or are really painful to try. Look at the first boss here. I couldn't have done that prior to the companions and even with it, it was incredibly frustrating. That's a lot of cc and very little opportunity to fight. Group dungeons just aren't built for this kind of thing, nor should they be. A solo story mode with no monster helm or set pieces would be so much better.

Anyway please enjoy the Frostvault story.

https://youtu.be/ubaLwmBeOmg

I agree we need a system that allows us to run dungeons more casually and discourages speed runners and pledge runners from using it, but not a solo mode. We already have a lot in this game that is solo content. We don't need everything to be solo. But we definitely need something to large portion of us that want to take our time in dungeons and explore them and their stories that option. I also think all dungeon stories should be repeatable( but you can only claim the reward once).

spartaxoxo

ThorianB wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So a few things about this video. I made this video so people can be more aware that they can now see dungeon stories they couldn't before thanks to the companions. And also so that ZOS can see why a story mode in this game is needed.

This video has been edited to remove a large portions of each of the boss fights, most add fights, and a lot of traversal for the sake of time. Afterall it's not to show the mechanics but the story of the dungeon. It's also done on a hero with relatively low dps, but still more than many players who have like 5-10K dps apparently. This character has 20k. I haven't even learned a rotation on it yet.

Despite extensive editing to shorten the length of this dungeon, it's still about 36 minutes long.

Is there any wonder people in a pug don't want to sit around and wait for someone else to do this? And yet, the story is pretty interesting and full of lore! Is there any wonder why players new to the dungeon want to experience it?

And while you can solo them to hear and enjoy it, not all dungeons are able to be done that way. Or are really painful to try. Look at the first boss here. I couldn't have done that prior to the companions and even with it, it was incredibly frustrating. That's a lot of cc and very little opportunity to fight. Group dungeons just aren't built for this kind of thing, nor should they be. A solo story mode with no monster helm or set pieces would be so much better.

Anyway please enjoy the Frostvault story.

https://youtu.be/ubaLwmBeOmg

I agree we need a system that allows us to run dungeons more casually and discourages speed runners and pledge runners from using it, but not a solo mode.

We have that it's called normal mode. And you see exactly how it turns out when someome wants to quest and someone else wants to farm.

I don't know how you expect to have a mode where you can do whatever you want and listen to the other npcs while forcing everyone else to follow you around without talking.

Linaleah

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So a few things about this video. I made this video so people can be more aware that they can now see dungeon stories they couldn't before thanks to the companions. And also so that ZOS can see why a story mode in this game is needed.

This video has been edited to remove a large portions of each of the boss fights, most add fights, and a lot of traversal for the sake of time. Afterall it's not to show the mechanics but the story of the dungeon. It's also done on a hero with relatively low dps, but still more than many players who have like 5-10K dps apparently. This character has 20k. I haven't even learned a rotation on it yet.

Despite extensive editing to shorten the length of this dungeon, it's still about 36 minutes long.

Is there any wonder people in a pug don't want to sit around and wait for someone else to do this? And yet, the story is pretty interesting and full of lore! Is there any wonder why players new to the dungeon want to experience it?

And while you can solo them to hear and enjoy it, not all dungeons are able to be done that way. Or are really painful to try. Look at the first boss here. I couldn't have done that prior to the companions and even with it, it was incredibly frustrating. That's a lot of cc and very little opportunity to fight. Group dungeons just aren't built for this kind of thing, nor should they be. A solo story mode with no monster helm or set pieces would be so much better.

Anyway please enjoy the Frostvault story.

https://youtu.be/ubaLwmBeOmg

I agree we need a system that allows us to run dungeons more casually and discourages speed runners and pledge runners from using it, but not a solo mode.

We have that it's called normal mode. And you see exactly how it turns out when someome wants to quest and someone else wants to farm.

I don't know how you expect to have a mode where you can do whatever you want and listen to the other npcs while forcing everyone else to follow you around without talking.

this. even in a group full of people who are all in there for the story that was prearranged in advance... someone still waits and someone else feels rushed, another person wonders off and starts npc roleplay dialogue (the ambient animations and conversations, not the dialogue you read/listen through and pick options), so someone else misses out on that.

Even in SWTOR where they specifically created a system originally where dialogue cutscene took multiple people into account, everyone had to click on npc to start the scene which you had to do in order to proceed further into a dungeon and you rolled on each conversation option, which in theory (and early on) resulted in cool group sort of cutscene... in practice ended up with people shouting "SPACEBAR" in text if god forbid you didn't skip right away. which is why they later added solo mode. and that's in game that originally designed for groups roleplaying.

in game stories are hard to impossible to do in a group. two people maybe, roleplaying deliberately... and even then.

spartaxoxo

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So a few things about this video. I made this video so people can be more aware that they can now see dungeon stories they couldn't before thanks to the companions. And also so that ZOS can see why a story mode in this game is needed.

This video has been edited to remove a large portions of each of the boss fights, most add fights, and a lot of traversal for the sake of time. Afterall it's not to show the mechanics but the story of the dungeon. It's also done on a hero with relatively low dps, but still more than many players who have like 5-10K dps apparently. This character has 20k. I haven't even learned a rotation on it yet.

Despite extensive editing to shorten the length of this dungeon, it's still about 36 minutes long.

Is there any wonder people in a pug don't want to sit around and wait for someone else to do this? And yet, the story is pretty interesting and full of lore! Is there any wonder why players new to the dungeon want to experience it?

And while you can solo them to hear and enjoy it, not all dungeons are able to be done that way. Or are really painful to try. Look at the first boss here. I couldn't have done that prior to the companions and even with it, it was incredibly frustrating. That's a lot of cc and very little opportunity to fight. Group dungeons just aren't built for this kind of thing, nor should they be. A solo story mode with no monster helm or set pieces would be so much better.

Anyway please enjoy the Frostvault story.

https://youtu.be/ubaLwmBeOmg

I agree we need a system that allows us to run dungeons more casually and discourages speed runners and pledge runners from using it, but not a solo mode.

We have that it's called normal mode. And you see exactly how it turns out when someome wants to quest and someone else wants to farm.

I don't know how you expect to have a mode where you can do whatever you want and listen to the other npcs while forcing everyone else to follow you around without talking.

this. even in a group full of people who are all in there for the story that was prearranged in advance... someone still waits and someone else feels rushed, another person wonders off and starts npc roleplay dialogue (the ambient animations and conversations, not the dialogue you read/listen through and pick options), so someone else misses out on that.

Absolutely. It just makes no pratical sense whatsoever to try to force everyone to read and listen to a story at the same pace. Everyone has different hearing and reading speeds. Everyone.

That's why a lot of MMOs now have story modes.

You can't really share npc dialogue effectively.

I think the people objecting to it just have a general dislike of solo content and aren't even thinking about what is they are asking to be a group thing.

VaranisArano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

https://youtu.be/n1-AlwU7-OM

I figured I'd do depths of Malatar too since I had done Frostvault. Might as well do the whole Wrathstone dlc since it's connected to the storyline of Elysweyr.

A lot of people blame only Abnur for what happened in Elysweyr because all they did was the prologue. But actually Abnur didn't even become interested in the Wrathstone until Tharayya unearthed it despite knowing that the Ayelids and Dwarves went to such drastic lengths to keep them sealed. The Wrathstone hadn't been seen for a thousand years. She dismissed concerns about digging it up and was mostly concerned about proving herself to be a great scholar.

Alternatively, we've done the dungeons and the Prologue and primarily blame Abnur Tharn for using the Wrathstone even though everything we've found out since unearthing it indicates that doing so is a really bad idea.

Not gonna lie, that whole prelude to Elsweyr was like:

spartaxoxo

VaranisArano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

https://youtu.be/n1-AlwU7-OM

I figured I'd do depths of Malatar too since I had done Frostvault. Might as well do the whole Wrathstone dlc since it's connected to the storyline of Elysweyr.

A lot of people blame only Abnur for what happened in Elysweyr because all they did was the prologue. But actually Abnur didn't even become interested in the Wrathstone until Tharayya unearthed it despite knowing that the Ayelids and Dwarves went to such drastic lengths to keep them sealed. The Wrathstone hadn't been seen for a thousand years. She dismissed concerns about digging it up and was mostly concerned about proving herself to be a great scholar.

Alternatively, we've done the dungeons and the Prologue and primarily blame Abnur Tharn for using the Wrathstone even though everything we've found out since unearthing it indicates that doing so is a really bad idea.

Not gonna lie, that whole prelude to Elsweyr was like:

Tharayya's role in the events is almost never mentioned. People blame Khamira more than Tharayya, even though she was clearly against everything that happened. Perhaps you think that way, but I don't think most people realize just how many warning signs Tharayya ignored to unearth it at all.

The dungeon dialogue makes it really clear that it was a bad idea to unearth it at all. And Tharayya knew she was putting the world in great danger by unleashing it, but decided to sell it off anyway to someone who it would be less dangerous to hand it off too.

I really don't know how someone who really got to pay attention to the story could come to conclusion that Tharayya's share of the blame isn't large, certainly larger than Khamira.

Iccotak

I’d be ok with this IF Main Story Bosses had an optional harder difficulty setting (still no rewards) that overhauled the Boss mechanics.

You get a story mode you enjoy and so do those looking for a story with a satisfying final fight

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

I’d be ok with this IF Main Story Bosses had an optional harder difficulty setting (still no rewards) that overhauled the Boss mechanics.

You get a story mode you enjoy and so do those looking for a story with a satisfying final fight

Absolutely. I am all for that.

Amottica

majulook wrote: »

I might be OK with this Storybook mode ONLY if they did not drop any gear from the dungeons and not give credit for Undaunted skill line or Undaunted rewards.

I believe if you want the gear, skill line, or rewards you should do normal or vet not storybook mode.

If the suggestion is it should not count for the pledges, sure, but the undaunted points for completing the dungeon the first time should be granted just as it is granted in any other mode. That reward is not repeatable and not that big.

The two most valid reason for a story mode is that the new stories added each year include the dungeons. It makes sound business sense to make it easier for someone to pay attention to the story they are interested in selling us.

That, and it does not harm anyone to have a mode where players can enjoy the dungeon story at their own pace.

ThorianB

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So a few things about this video. I made this video so people can be more aware that they can now see dungeon stories they couldn't before thanks to the companions. And also so that ZOS can see why a story mode in this game is needed.

This video has been edited to remove a large portions of each of the boss fights, most add fights, and a lot of traversal for the sake of time. Afterall it's not to show the mechanics but the story of the dungeon. It's also done on a hero with relatively low dps, but still more than many players who have like 5-10K dps apparently. This character has 20k. I haven't even learned a rotation on it yet.

Despite extensive editing to shorten the length of this dungeon, it's still about 36 minutes long.

Is there any wonder people in a pug don't want to sit around and wait for someone else to do this? And yet, the story is pretty interesting and full of lore! Is there any wonder why players new to the dungeon want to experience it?

And while you can solo them to hear and enjoy it, not all dungeons are able to be done that way. Or are really painful to try. Look at the first boss here. I couldn't have done that prior to the companions and even with it, it was incredibly frustrating. That's a lot of cc and very little opportunity to fight. Group dungeons just aren't built for this kind of thing, nor should they be. A solo story mode with no monster helm or set pieces would be so much better.

Anyway please enjoy the Frostvault story.

https://youtu.be/ubaLwmBeOmg

I agree we need a system that allows us to run dungeons more casually and discourages speed runners and pledge runners from using it, but not a solo mode.

We have that it's called normal mode. And you see exactly how it turns out when someome wants to quest and someone else wants to farm.

I don't know how you expect to have a mode where you can do whatever you want and listen to the other npcs while forcing everyone else to follow you around without talking.

No we don't because ZOS made several mistakes that led to "normal" being hijacked by pledge runners and people looking for dungeon rewards. Ive ran many dungeons with groups that were casual and we all hang our and chill and run it casually no one is in a hurry no one cares about someone else not pulling enough DPS, we dont complain about wipes or whine about how long it is taking. All you have to do is remove that group of toxic players that are there for selfish reasons and don't care why anyone else is there all they care about is ME ME ME. And that can be done without making a solo mode.

I will always be against making more of the game solo even though i mostly play solo or with one other person. And solo story dungeons aren't necessary. I much rather them fix dungeons so that casual runners don't have to deal with speed runners. That would benefit far more people than a solo story mode.

spartaxoxo

ThorianB wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

So a few things about this video. I made this video so people can be more aware that they can now see dungeon stories they couldn't before thanks to the companions. And also so that ZOS can see why a story mode in this game is needed.

This video has been edited to remove a large portions of each of the boss fights, most add fights, and a lot of traversal for the sake of time. Afterall it's not to show the mechanics but the story of the dungeon. It's also done on a hero with relatively low dps, but still more than many players who have like 5-10K dps apparently. This character has 20k. I haven't even learned a rotation on it yet.

Despite extensive editing to shorten the length of this dungeon, it's still about 36 minutes long.

Is there any wonder people in a pug don't want to sit around and wait for someone else to do this? And yet, the story is pretty interesting and full of lore! Is there any wonder why players new to the dungeon want to experience it?

And while you can solo them to hear and enjoy it, not all dungeons are able to be done that way. Or are really painful to try. Look at the first boss here. I couldn't have done that prior to the companions and even with it, it was incredibly frustrating. That's a lot of cc and very little opportunity to fight. Group dungeons just aren't built for this kind of thing, nor should they be. A solo story mode with no monster helm or set pieces would be so much better.

Anyway please enjoy the Frostvault story.

https://youtu.be/ubaLwmBeOmg

I agree we need a system that allows us to run dungeons more casually and discourages speed runners and pledge runners from using it, but not a solo mode.

We have that it's called normal mode. And you see exactly how it turns out when someome wants to quest and someone else wants to farm.

I don't know how you expect to have a mode where you can do whatever you want and listen to the other npcs while forcing everyone else to follow you around without talking.

No we don't because ZOS made several mistakes that led to "normal" being hijacked by pledge runners and people looking for dungeon rewards.

There is no design choice ZOS can make to make people have the same personality as your friends.

Group content is inherently nonconducive to cut scenes. That is why pretty much every game designer has to design around it. Or else what happens is the only people to get to see them are the people lucky enough to know exactly the right people and have a play schedule at exactly the right time, or players that are better at the game than 90% of other players who can just solo it.

Dungeons have always been content where people largely did NOT get to view the story in the kind of detail as in those videos. Even before transmute crystals.

One way game designers is to literally physically force the players to listen to it. With cutscenes halting the action and nobody can move if even one person chooses not to skip them.

The other is allowing a solo mode and let people enjoy it at their own pace without needing to worry about others.

Having an extremist stance doesn't really make sense, imo. It should be which system is best for which type of content. I really don't see how listening to cut scenes is best done in a group. Fighting the bosses for rewards is best done in a group. But not listening to dialogue. Just objectively it's suboptimal and that's why developers have to engineer solutions.

ThorianB

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There is no design choice ZOS can make to make people have the same personality as your friends.

Not my friends. Randoms... All PUG groups. And there are many they can make.
1. Have two separate queues. Casual and Advanced.
2. Advanced Queue has better rewards than Casual. Such as more transmutes and better dungeon daily box.
3. Casual requires you to pick a role.
4. Advanced allows you to pick two roles that you can do. As long as all roles are covered at least once by someone, the queue will pop. This will make the advanced queues faster( which pledge runners, gear runners, and box runners will like). You also will assume that you will have to somewhat be able to look out for yourself( heals and tanking might not be the best so make sure you can take a hit and heal yourself).

I just removed all incentive for pledge and speed runners to run the casual queue in 4 steps. Those guys get what they want, faster dungeons with people they shouldn't have to babysit ( as much) and casuals get what they want. The ability to lazily run through a dungeon looting containers, listening to dialogue and trying to figure out mechanics without spoiling them with google so they don't get yelled at. That was hard... next problem? Oh...

Group content is inherently nonconducive to cut scenes.

I don't remember any cutscenes in which other players messed up personally unless they were rushing me. But ZOS is notorious for making it so sometimes two people doing a quest in a group get credit for something and progress the story if one person does and sometimes each person does it. This is just bad quest design on ZOS part. This can be fixed by ZOS fixing the many quests like this and paying attention to how quests affects group members when designing them.

Dungeons have always been content where people largely did NOT get to view the story in the kind of detail as in those videos. Even before transmute crystals.

Are you talking about the game trailer videos that include dungeon scenes because those are trailers, not really designed to be in game content.

Having an extremist stance doesn't really make sense, imo. It should be which system is best for which type of content. I really don't see how listening to cut scenes is best done in a group.

My stance isn't extremist? Its far more reasonable than a solo mode GROUP dungeon. It is designed as a group dungeon and it only solves a tiny problem for a small portion of the population( at least your version does) while my version solves multiple issues for pretty much the entire dungeon running population. So my solution makes the dungeon better for everyone while yours makes it better for.... you? I would like to be able to enjoy the story in a dungeon, but we don't need to make this entire game single player so a few people can get that single player RPG feel. Them fixing the dungeon queues as i suggested and fixing the dungeon quests at least for the casual group would solve the problem while still keeping the group element.

Your suggestion just sounds a sneaky way to get group dungeons converted to single players and i think, for an MMO, this game has to much single player as it is now.

spartaxoxo

ThorianB wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There is no design choice ZOS can make to make people have the same personality as your friends.

Not my friends. Randoms... All PUG groups. And there are many they can make.
1. Have two separate queues. Casual and Advanced.
2. Advanced Queue has better rewards than Casual. Such as more transmutes and better dungeon daily box.
3. Casual requires you to pick a role.
4. Advanced allows you to pick two roles that you can do. As long as all roles are covered at least once by someone, the queue will pop. This will make the advanced queues faster( which pledge runners, gear runners, and box runners will like). You also will assume that you will have to somewhat be able to look out for yourself( heals and tanking might not be the best so make sure you can take a hit and heal yourself).

I just removed all incentive for pledge and speed runners to run the casual queue in 4 steps.

This was literally the system for years and still the number one complaint was that the casual mode prevented people from reading the quests.

Why on earth would getting less rewards make someone want to stay longer in a dungeon?

I don't remember any cutscenes in which other players messed up personally unless they were rushing me

In other words, other players prevented you from listening to all the dialogue. And you were reliant on the benevolence of the players and not on good system design to hear it.

Are you talking about the game trailer videos that include dungeon scenes because those are trailers, not really designed to be in game content.

No. I am not. There are literal cutscenes in dungeons and quite often additonal dialogue from multiple npcs after those cutscenes.

My stance isn't extremist

It is by defintion. If you're always opposed, that is extremism. That you're bolding the word "group:" shows zero thought went into your objection because it is actually utterly irrelevant to the concept of a story mode dungeon with no rewards. More and more MMOs have a group and story mode to a dungeon because a story mode is only about viewing cutscenes. It has literally nothing to do with playing the dungeon.

Your solution addressed none of the problems being addressed by a story mode. Your solution is about killing stuff not about listening to cut scenes.

FluffyBird

Yep. Give us the story mode or get the story out of the dungeons.

I've had pleasure of doing dungeons quests on my low levels with pugs (like, really, normally doing quests, where everyone is waiting for everyone), and let me tell you, so far the only way to comfortably do the story with someone else is when it's one other person literally sitting next to you =/
Even worse: in some of the older dungeons finishing dialogue closes it for all the other players, so you have to coordinate hecking clicking through it.

I don't get it why some players are so against it, as if we are stealing their trifecta achievements, monster heads and grandma's cat =/

P. S. On one of the streams Finn said no story mode, but, I think, there already were some things where ZOS said "not happening" and later we got it?

spartaxoxo

FluffyBird wrote: »

Yep. Give us the story mode or get the story out of the dungeons.

I've had pleasure of doing dungeons quests on my low levels with pugs (like, really, normally doing quests, where everyone is waiting for everyone), and let me tell you, so far the only way to comfortably do the story with someone else is when it's one other person literally sitting next to you =/
Even worse: in some of the older dungeons finishing dialogue closes it for all the other players, so you have to coordinate hecking clicking through it.

I don't get it why some players are so against it, as if we are stealing their trifecta achievements, monster heads and grandma's cat =/

P. S. On one of the streams Finn said no story mode, but, I think, there already were some things where ZOS said "not happening" and later we got it?

Because they don't like how solo friendly this game is so they automatically oppose everything that adds more solo content without any actual thought to what is their opposing. Which is how "less dps" is supposed to magically make listening to audio easier.

Like no, that doesn't make it easier to hear dialogue at your own pace.

So they even claim that removing all the things that make dungeons repeated content is trying to take their dungeons. It's ridiculous.

ThorianB

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This was literally the system for years and still the number one complaint was that the casual mode prevented people from reading the quests.

Why on earth would getting less rewards make someone want to stay longer in a dungeon?

Because rewards aren't a motivator for everyone? Actually a lot of casual players that run dungeons do so for fun/social interaction, not some trivial perceived reward. When a reward is the main motivator that is due to greed and that isn't someone i would want to be grouped with. Greed ruins fun.

In other words, other players prevented you from listening to all the dialogue. And you were reliant on the benevolence of the players and not on good system design to hear it.

Rushing me through the dungeon. Speed runners that run ahead and start running so you try to blow through the content because you never know when one of these guys are going to flip out and try to boot you because as one once put it " I have 36 more pledges to do today and only two hours left before bed time!" Don't try to twist my experience to suit your cause. My quest problem can be fixed by getting rid of speed runners and by making sure quest objectives/dialogue/events have to be done per person and others cant do it for you. I quest a lot with my wife and we often get quests in which 4 out of 5 documents in the quest will be triggered so that me reading and then closing the document does not affect her. Then we get that one document in the same storyline, sometimes in the middle of it, in which if one of us close the document first the other one doesn't get to read it. It's this kind of sloppy inconsistency that ZOS needs to fix with their quests. Its infuriating in or out of a dungeon and we don't need a story mode to fix it. We just need ZOS to put as much effort into making sure the quest flows as well for a player in a group as is does if they play solo.

No. I am not. There are literal cutscenes in dungeons and quite often additonal dialogue from multiple npcs after those cutscenes.

Yes in a good group i don't find the players to hinder those at all as long as ZOS didn't screw the scene up. The way you were talking it sounded like you expected trailer type cutscenes in the dungeons rather than zoom in and listen to conversation and do dialogue and watch some NPC actions and whatnot.

The only problems i have with these can be solved by ZOS doing a better job with their quests.

It is by defintion. If you're always opposed, that is extremism.

Actually it would be that you would accept no other views/outcomes/etc. Extremist views:
1. I would never murder someone.
2. I would never jump off a 50 story building.
3. I would never put gas in an electric car.
Also i would never:
1. Tug on superman's cape.
2. Spit into the wind.
3. Pull the mask off the ol' Lone Ranger

While your definition is literal, it is also not practical and therefor irrational.Your definition of extremism is in and of itself, extremist.

That you're bolding the word "group:" shows zero thought went into your objection because it is actually utterly irrelevant to the concept of a story mode dungeon with no rewards.

No i bolded it to remind you that it is a group, not solo dungeon in an MMO that already has far to much solo content in it for an MMO. And it is very relevant because as a group dungeon it should be done in a ... group. there is no reason there needs to be a solo version of the dungeon. That energy could be much better spent on detoxing dungeons that ZOS keeps insisting on making more toxic by not making well thought out decisions( here is looking at you transmute crystals). Far more people would benefit from dividing the queue, as i suggested, and fixing quests( starting with dungeons but i would like to see all quests fixed) so that other players in your group don't mess up the quest for you.

More and more MMOs have a group and story mode to a dungeon because a story mode is only about viewing cutscenes.

If you only want to view cutscenes you can do that on youtube. It's not relevant to me what other MMOs are doing as i am not playing those. I am playing this one. And solo in a group dungeon is a hard no for me. You can do most things in ESO solo including some group dungeons. There is no reason to make the whole game solo. Skyrim is back down the hall if people want a solo elder scrolls experience.

spartaxoxo

Because rewards aren't a motivator for everyone?

Most people are running dungeons for the loot. It's what makes them so repeatable and is a staple of MMO design. Beyond that, all systems will be used by everyone.

Don't try to twist my experience to suit your cause. My quest problem can be fixed by getting rid of speed runners and by making sure quest objectives/dialogue/events have to be done per person and others cant do it for you.

I twisted nothing. Your experience was everyone's. Nobody had control over hearing the dialogue. You yourself didn't and therefore your own experience proves the opposite of the point you're making. You didn't set your own pace if some random could rush you away from it. That's just fact. Nothing wrong with pointing out the weakness of your example.

Beyond that, you cannot design a dungeon where a personality type is excluded. Good game design makes content suit a wide variety of personalities.

Actually it would be that you would accept no other views/outcomes/etc.

Which is what "I always be opposed" mean. My defintion is textbook defintion. It is not extreme. If there is zero way you can accept arguments that solo content be added, you're an extremist on the issue. It's a very practical defintion. People who are unable to compromise and will always be opposed/in favor of something are at the extreme end of the spectrums on that issue.

No i bolded it to remind you that it is a group, not solo dungeon in an MMO that already has far to much solo content in it for an MMO.

Which is completely irrelevant to the point of the thread. The cutscenes are NOT group content, and the old ones that are and skip automatically when someone else can also control them shouldn't be by your own admission. They are solo content inside group content. It is killing the bosses and adds and getting rewards that are meant to be enjoyed by the group. That is what causes the inherent conflict that game designers have to engineer around or else almost nobody gets to experience it. Every person reads and comprehends at their own pace.

Nobody is talking about ANY of the group rewards being available. And having a story mode version is actually increasingly becoming standard practice for group dungeons in MMOs because everyone reads and listens at their own pace.

Nobody needs reminding of an issue already addressed to ensure that group content cannot possibly be undermined by the solo version.

Far more people would benefit from dividing the queue, as i suggested

Your idea was already implemented and failed to address the issue in the OP, which is ways for people to hear the quest and experience the lore. And that idea did not help people hear the quest.

If you only want to view cutscenes you can do that on youtube. 

Why should someone have to go outside the game to listen to content they paid for?

FluffWit

Ty for making this, I can't imagine I'll ever get a chance to run these dungeons and listen to the dialogue so I really appreciate it.