Anyone else feel like dev communication needs to be heavily reworked?

GenjiraX

Tandor wrote: »

GenjiraX wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

GenjiraX wrote: »

I think I read that devs used to come onto the forum and engage with players.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile having devs here getting bogged down in ten different opinions on how to improve a given aspect of the game. It would be more useful if we had someone in the middle, who actively engaged with players, got involved in discussions, responded to serious concerns, and took them back to the devs. It’s a shame we don’t have anyone like that.

The trouble is that people don't follow the Dev Tracker to see the communication that does exist. Had those in this topic done so they would have seen that a Forum Manager has just been appointed, and that he states that he will "run the daily communications for the forum. So happy to chat or gather constructive feedback about ESO".

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Dev Tracker doesn't give any information beyond what's already included in the threads themselves. I think it's just a list a list of the very few threads that contain a (non-Dev) ZOS post. Is that correct?

The new Forum Manager thread is pinned to the top of the General ESO Discussion board, btw. Among many others, I posted a comment in it. Guess what response I got.

That's correct, but the benefit of Dev Tracker is that it's an instant way of seeing what ZOS have been posting outside of routine moderation and avoids the need to scour the forums for their contributions as it lists them all in one readily accessible place. Of course, the disadvantage is that Dev Tracker isn't accessible on the mobile version of the forum and I wish they'd fix that.

I have it bookmarked. It’s accessible, it just doesn’t have a link at the top of the page.

xeNNNNN

Elo106 wrote: »

Agreed when they nerf skills no one uses, for what seems to us no apparent reason, or not buff classes that are clearly lacking it seems like they are out of touch with the game. Or CP 2.0, just answer some threads here every now and then and people can stop making threads about the same issues over and over again.

Just changing things randomly (from our POV) leads us to believe the devs dont know what they are doing.

Zos admitted to bad communication, but apparently theres nothing being done about it

This is the impression it leaves for me as well, I don't like it. Many of us here have played since beta..there was a time when they were far more willing to openly talk. It seems the whole legal stuff and perceived hostility from their perspective on these forums may be responsible for them communicating much less.

The problem of course while it can be argued the forums can be pretty toxic, the complete and total silence of all decision making and general conversation with the community about anything other than the crown store and unexpected bugs also breeds toxicity because it makes the community believe that they are just not caring nor listening to them anymore.

This is a two way street, we need to be nicer but they need to talk. Otherwise that being nicer part wont show up. There will always be people overstepping themselves, hell I did it back when the morrowind patch happened. I was mad as hell, the patch destroyed my entire roster of characters and rebuilding them all cost me way too much, I got punished for it and it was deserved - which is where I am saying now, if people are backsides when the devs post then dish out warnings and bans if need be but don't NOT talk to the community just because the minority are louder than the majority.

As a secondary part; the community feels utterly ignored on the PTS forums (possibly the most important place they should be talking to the community) and frankly based on the changes, we are ignored on those forums or at least thats the perception it gives us. They've got to find a middle ground between their design vision and what the community wants or they will just drive people off. The 7 years thread where support accidently deleted his 7 year old character that he main'd, is a prime example of a situation where the devs need to talk to the community otherwise its a PR dumpster fire.

jircris11

Lets also remember that the gaming community cant seem to be nature when speaking to devs. There have been many cases in many mmos where devs stopped responding because of threats, insults and such. Untill we as gamers kearn that its not ok to be jerks to devs we most likely wont get the open line we hope for.

MJallday

I think many on here seem to have an unrealistic expectation of a developer

The zos developers do not:
Decide on content - this is done by game managers or game directors
Test - this is the job of testers or QA
Talk directly to consumers - it’s not their job

A developers job is to take the idea, make the code work and pass it to QA - overseen by a lead dev and subsequently a project manager who reports into a game manager

That is it. So all this waving at the devs is misplaced. The devs will not do anything. Aim your frustration in other directions

xeNNNNN

jircris11 wrote: »

Lets also remember that the gaming community cant seem to be nature when speaking to devs. There have been many cases in many mmos where devs stopped responding because of threats, insults and such. Untill we as gamers kearn that its not ok to be jerks to devs we most likely wont get the open line we hope for.

and this is why you ban them. Temporary or permanent.

Not the game but the forum. The forum account is like an account within your general ZoS account. So they can disable that and you can still play the game.

alanmatillab16_ESO

It is listing to players too much that has let to the innumerable swings of the nerf bat and is leading towards homogenisation of classes and abilities. Woe betide the dev that makes one class ability do 2% more damage/healing etc than a similar ability on another class even though that ability might be balanced in another way such as longer cooldown, cost more, easier resisted etc.

Athan1

I agree that it would be nice to hear more from moderators/devs. Looking back at older posts, they used to be more engaged with the community. However, the popularity of the game means they don't need to spend resources on this. More importantly, every single word that comes out of their mouths is taken out of context and then used against them. Just look at all the mock/complaint threads that crop up after every press release. Why would they add more fuel to the fire? I understand them.

Having said all that, this thread will most probably be deleted because we aren't even allowed to discuss these matters.

xeNNNNN

Athan1 wrote: »

Having said all that, this thread will most probably be deleted because we aren't even allowed to discuss these matters.

Which is a whole other problem entirely.

Sephyr

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Elo106 wrote: »

Agreed when they nerf skills no one uses, for what seems to us no apparent reason, or not buff classes that are clearly lacking it seems like they are out of touch with the game. Or CP 2.0, just answer some threads here every now and then and people can stop making threads about the same issues over and over again.

Just changing things randomly (from our POV) leads us to believe the devs dont know what they are doing.

Zos admitted to bad communication, but apparently theres nothing being done about it

This is the impression it leaves for me as well, I don't like it. Many of us here have played since beta..there was a time when they were far more willing to openly talk. It seems the whole legal stuff and perceived hostility from their perspective on these forums may be responsible for them communicating much less.

The problem of course while it can be argued the forums can be pretty toxic, the complete and total silence of all decision making and general conversation with the community about anything other than the crown store and unexpected bugs also breeds toxicity because it makes the community believe that they are just not caring nor listening to them anymore.

This is a two way street, we need to be nicer but they need to talk. Otherwise that being nicer part wont show up. There will always be people overstepping themselves, hell I did it back when the morrowind patch happened. I was mad as hell, the patch destroyed my entire roster of characters and rebuilding them all cost me way too much, I got punished for it and it was deserved - which is where I am saying now, if people are backsides when the devs post then dish out warnings and bans if need be but don't NOT talk to the community just because the minority are louder than the majority.

As a secondary part; the community feels utterly ignored on the PTS forums (possibly the most important place they should be talking to the community) and frankly based on the changes, we are ignored on those forums or at least thats the perception it gives us. They've got to find a middle ground between their design vision and what the community wants or they will just drive people off. The 7 years thread where support accidently deleted his 7 year old character that he main'd, is a prime example of a situation where the devs need to talk to the community otherwise its a PR dumpster fire.

A lot of this is why I hold no expectation of a new forum manager. I'll be surprised if it gets better and accountability actually happens, but I've serious doubts and I just don't trust it'll ever happen in our lifetime.

[Deleted User]

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FlopsyPrince

MJallday wrote: »

I think many on here seem to have an unrealistic expectation of a developer

The zos developers do not:
Decide on content - this is done by game managers or game directors
Test - this is the job of testers or QA
Talk directly to consumers - it’s not their job

A developers job is to take the idea, make the code work and pass it to QA - overseen by a lead dev and subsequently a project manager who reports into a game manager

That is it. So all this waving at the devs is misplaced. The devs will not do anything. Aim your frustration in other directions

That is a poor excuse. Sure, some devs would not be appropriate, but the term "devs" means more than just those only writing code. The point is to present the "why" of choices. Arguing about the term "dev" is a distraction.

JKorr

Ippokrates wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Yes, because that always works out so well for them.

Vocal players with opinions: ZOS, fix X! Desperately needs a fix before all life in the galaxy dies.!!!!!!!!!

ZOS: We heard you, and are checking for the issues.

Vocal players with opinions: This NEEDS fixed!!!!! ASAP!!!!!!! Fix your pos game!!!!!

ZOS: We have a fix, and will take down the servers at 6a.m. EST. Estimate 2 hours.

Players with opinions: What?!?!? Unscheduled maintenance? ANOTHER maintenance??????? Why do you hate your players ZOS? Why schedule maintenance to fix issues?!?!?!
:time expires:

Players with opinions: OMG!!!! 2 hours and TEN seconds and the server isn't up! TEH devs LIED!!!!

Personal opinion; they are better off not communicating. There are legal issues, contracts, upcoming material and other things the players have no reason to hear about. Trying to satisfy the demand to justify every single thing would not be a good use of dev time. And you know there are people who would demand detailed discussion notes about why there are 2 torches to the right of the doorway, but 3 to the left.

Or maybe they could just acknowledge that problem exist (or maybe it is just not a problem because it was the design and there are other things that need to be taken into consideration) and they will do something about it during next maintenance or nearest patch.

And usually issues are focused over few crucial topics like classes and skills, rng, textures, lags & performance. If they are closing so many threads anyway, they could simply transfer discussion to others.

That is what I said. They've tried explaining before. No one is ever satisfied. If the poster isn't a programming genius, he knows someone who's best friend's uncle's cousin used to work for company X and he always fixed it that way. No one is ever satisfied with a simple explanation, either. They want details, time stamps, and notarized statements so when the lawsuits happen, evidence is there.

ZOS: We have to do this thing in this way.

vocal players with opinions: WHY would you do it that way? That won't work. Its easy if you code it this way, do this other thing, and use third party software. It would be sooooo easy.

ZOS: can't really explain due to nda, legal restrictions, copyright issues and the simple fact the "easy" solution won't work because they built their own proprietary engine: No, we have to do it this way.

vocal players with opinions: Why won't you listen? You just hate your players and are dumb code monkeys who can't program anything. You need to prove you can't use the easy way that everyone who isn't working for you and knows squat about your server proramming knows will work.

ZOS: weary sigh and vows to ignore the forums forevermore.

Destai

Absolutely it needs to be reworked and the forum itself needs to be updated. There's too much of a focus on moderation and not customer service from what I see. We need a better sense of what actual ZOS presence there is and two-way communication.

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Want better communication? Get dev tack news, zos Twitter support and more news here

https://discord.gg/VwGTQdfBkx

Bonus daily endeavor news now too

How official is this? I'm sorry, but they should be treating this forum with as much attention - or more - than the social media. If managed correctly, we really could have a better community. I don't feel like we've seen that to date.

Hapexamendios

If you were a developer, would you want to deal with us? I don't think I would.

Dagre2

Hapexamendios wrote: »

If you were a developer, would you want to deal with us? I don't think I would.

many devs do. you get the toxicity either way so its a poor excuse overall. and actually, in today's world, more devs communicate with their players base than don't. 20 years ago would be a different story.

Elsonso

Destai wrote: »

How official is this? I'm sorry, but they should be treating this forum with as much attention - or more - than the social media. If managed correctly, we really could have a better community. I don't feel like we've seen that to date.

Not at all official. They have an official one, though. I guess that all the Bethesda games have one, now that they closed the Bethesda forums.

As for attention, the forum is only a small part of the world where ESO information is presented. The bigger picture is actually vital to developing the entire community.

newtinmpls

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Some of us die often enough to some world bosses already. Run a trial solo if you want hard content! Run a harrowstorm by yourself! I still die to those a lot, even with decent gear and high CP (on the PS4 before switching the the PC.

<largish snip>

Making overland harder would be silly however, since that is not a "problem" for any but a small group who want to almost die at everything, even if it meant lots of dead bodies strewn about.

I've been doing a lot of surveys lately (I let them for a while - probably a mistake) and have now in the course of Tamriel-hopping, done a ridiculous number of world bosses. Usually even if I start alone, folks do show up.

And if no one does, I quite often die. As for the Blackwood bosses? Well I think they are plenty hard.

Tried Xeemhok's lagoon - I did last a bit by myself but first wave of adds bowled me under.

Tried again with 2 more players that showed up. And died even quicker. It was ... not Harrowstorm hard or Dragon hard, but quite respectable.

Him and Bittergreen (raises and shakes fist) are not going to be solo-able by me any time soon.

As for Dev communication - I am frustrated too. And it really is a no-win; the more they say, the angrier the forums get. The less they say, the angrier the forums get.

thorwyn

For a developer, discussing game design decisions is the worst idea you could possibly come up with. Just a quick glance at all the ideas, suggestions and complaints here on the forum gives you a good idea what a waste of time it would be to explain and defend design changes.

Destai

newtinmpls wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

<content snip>
As for Dev communication - I am frustrated too. And it really is a no-win; the more they say, the angrier the forums get. The less they say, the angrier the forums get.

The entire problem is when they do say something, it's usually one of the following:
1. We're looking into it. This gets said way too much and it just doesn't seem like there's much followup. CMs start threads and then orphan them.
2. Thanks for the feedback but, we're doing the opposite. Perfected weapons, the Vigor changes are perfect examples of where people clearly weren't happy but stuck with it.
3. Reiterating the forum rules. I would love to see the moderators repositioned to actually provide us feedback and help us get the info you need.
4. It'll be fixed in a later patch. No timeframe is usually provided, and when a timeframe is provided its usually farther out than comfortable. This is a tough one - and on complex issues, I'd usually side with not rushing it. Others are a stretch. Take the crafting bag fiasco - that couldn't get in a hotfix and sat for well over a month? No discussion as to why it couldn't be a hotfix. Just "Thank you for understanding" and ZERO compensation for people who had impaired functionality on premium content.

When they don't say something, it's worse because it gives us the impression they're not paying attention. Look at the whole merchant bug fiasco again - people tagged Gina dozens of times. And could she be bothered to treat us with a modicum of respect and respond with SOMETHING. Nope. It took people writing Jessica and other forum mods to get some statement on that. Of course when we did get something, it was a very sanitized message that felt dismissive of any discussion and questions.

All they have to do is engage in the hot button issues, acknowledge the repeated complaints about QoL issues, and follow up on bugs. I would think the CMs have access to some kind of release tracker and can speak to when things are targeted, what features are doable, and give us some official channel to submit feedback. I should be able to submit a bug or feature request, go to support, put the number and see its status.

There's definitely a lot of frustration that gets lobbed at the CMs that's not their fault per se - such as the years' worth of Cyrodiil complaints, performance, etc. But again, it's what their leadership isn't saying that's the problem. Remember when they had performance updates monthtly? Super appreciated. Then cancelled, no future followup, no engagement. Zilch. But don't bash the game!

Hapexamendios wrote: »

If you were a developer, would you want to deal with us? I don't think I would.

I'm a developer and I've dealt with angry clients. I usually listen to their feedback because they're the ones using the product and paying us. I've also managed Change Management and Client Engagement teams, and I can tell you if a client tried reaching one of my CMs for a week with no response, I''d hire a new CM.

thorwyn wrote: »

For a developer, discussing game design decisions is the worst idea you could possibly come up with. Just a quick glance at all the ideas, suggestions and complaints here on the forum gives you a good idea what a waste of time it would be to explain and defend design changes.

Disagree. I know all too well how developers get married to pet ideas and won't see reason when the end user is saying the experience needs improving. They work in a vacuum and you can see it pronounced across the whole game. There's some really good ideas and systems, but a lot of others that need updating.

HanStolo

Look at all the satisfied customers...

Elsonso

Destai wrote: »

Disagree. I know all too well how developers get married to pet ideas and won't see reason when the end user is saying the experience needs improving. They work in a vacuum and you can see it pronounced across the whole game. There's some really good ideas and systems, but a lot of others that need updating.

The flip side to that is that the players are often the same way. I have seen it many times in here. A group of players get the idea that some change must happen and become very invested in campaigning for it. Often, "everyone" or "most players" would agree that the change is necessary. At minimum, the important players, I guess.

I do wish that ZOS would come out more often and just tell people when something they are asking for ain't gonna happen, or if it is going to happen, whether it will be this decade or the next.

At least people would know.

Destai wrote: »

I'm a developer and I've dealt with angry clients. I usually listen to their feedback because they're the ones using the product and paying us. I've also managed Change Management and Client Engagement teams, and I can tell you if a client tried reaching one of my CMs for a week with no response, I''d hire a new CM.

From what I have seen, their job is Community Management, not Customer Service. They have a whole organization separate from the Community Management role for this. Now, that does not preclude them from stepping in, and I do feel that they should do more to act as a bridge between the players and the "Development" and Customer Support teams. However, I don't think I would ever require them to follow up every time they get summoned. They are not the personal concierge of the players.

JKorr

Destai wrote: »

[snip]

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Want better communication? Get dev tack news, zos Twitter support and more news here

https://discord.gg/VwGTQdfBkx

Bonus daily endeavor news now too

How official is this? I'm sorry, but they should be treating this forum with as much attention - or more - than the social media. If managed correctly, we really could have a better community. I don't feel like we've seen that to date.

Don't confuse the forum moderators who deal with posting infractions with social managers or devs or admins who actually might know something. Whether they'll be allowed to say what they know, only the lawyers and the nda contracts can say. Forums mods can say "No, you can't call that poster an idiot, even if they are. No you aren't allowed to advertise other games on this site. Did "He started it" ever work on your Mother to win an argument?" They have no information on whether Bastian will marry you, or there are future plans to recruit Mirri to the DB. They can't answer. Gina and company might know, but they might not be allowed to answer.

JKorr

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

I think many on here seem to have an unrealistic expectation of a developer

The zos developers do not:
Decide on content - this is done by game managers or game directors
Test - this is the job of testers or QA
Talk directly to consumers - it’s not their job

A developers job is to take the idea, make the code work and pass it to QA - overseen by a lead dev and subsequently a project manager who reports into a game manager

That is it. So all this waving at the devs is misplaced. The devs will not do anything. Aim your frustration in other directions

That is a poor excuse. Sure, some devs would not be appropriate, but the term "devs" means more than just those only writing code. The point is to present the "why" of choices. Arguing about the term "dev" is a distraction.

No.

When they've tried to present the "why" of choices, people immediately start demanding the reasoning and justification for that choice.

vocal players: Okay, devs, you chose to make Bastian blue with pink dots. Why? When did you decide this would be a reasonable choice?

[devs know Bastian's coloring changed because they planned a Netch spread pandemic that will happen in the second part of the 45th chapter but can't say that for nda/copyright/legal reasons]

Devs: Because we said so.

vocal players: BUT THAT ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH!!!!!!!!

Alurria

The developers, content managers forum moderators are not required to respond to people who demand it. This forum is not an extension of the 1st amendment. They are better off having their twitch q&a sessions where they can choose what to answer questions. We have no right to abuse them verbally, just like we should not verbally abuse each other.

My hope is for a community write up per say, where a community manager presents a question to each content managers that they answer and then is published in the general forums. These folks need a buffer between us and them because of the down right un productive replies and comments that get thrown around. The badgering is just that, the constant repetitive threads should be closed so as not to clutter the forums. It's hard to have any positive conversation on this forum because some people are under the impression that constant complaining means they care. I don't see it that way having experienced constant verbally and emotional abuse I find it extremely manipulative thinking.

If it were me working for ZOS I wouldn't answer either.

Destai

Elsonso wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

Disagree. I know all too well how developers get married to pet ideas and won't see reason when the end user is saying the experience needs improving. They work in a vacuum and you can see it pronounced across the whole game. There's some really good ideas and systems, but a lot of others that need updating.

The flip side to that is that the players are often the same way. I have seen it many times in here. A group of players get the idea that some change must happen and become very invested in campaigning for it. Often, "everyone" or "most players" would agree that the change is necessary. At minimum, the important players, I guess.

I do wish that ZOS would come out more often and just tell people when something they are asking for ain't gonna happen, or if it is going to happen, whether it will be this decade or the next.

At least people would know.

Destai wrote: »

I'm a developer and I've dealt with angry clients. I usually listen to their feedback because they're the ones using the product and paying us. I've also managed Change Management and Client Engagement teams, and I can tell you if a client tried reaching one of my CMs for a week with no response, I''d hire a new CM.

From what I have seen, their job is Community Management, not Customer Service. They have a whole organization separate from the Community Management role for this. Now, that does not preclude them from stepping in, and I do feel that they should do more to act as a bridge between the players and the "Development" and Customer Support teams. However, I don't think I would ever require them to follow up every time they get summoned. They are not the personal concierge of the players.

Eloquent as always, Elonso!

Sure, people on both sides get married to their ideas. There's a difference - in my mind at least - between the oodles of posts asking for something to be nerfed and genuine feedback on UX systems and problems. The ongoing campaigns for many players typically follow the latter - crafting writs, surveys, annoying NPCs, and inventory space. If people, I don't just mean myself here, keep saying a system needs improvement, that's really indicative of a UX that needs looking at it in some fashion. Even change campaigns aside, we have the PTS threads and various Feedback threads and again crickets. Case in point, the new tutorial. People complain about how crowded and noisy the NPE is and many of us offered the same or similar strategy for how to fix it. Did ZOS implement that feedback, of course not. And like you're saying, it's not just that it wasn't implemented, it's that the engagement was scant on the ZOS side as to why.

Elsonso

Destai wrote: »

Sure, people on both sides get married to their ideas. There's a difference - in my mind at least - between the oodles of posts asking for something to be nerfed and genuine feedback on UX systems and problems. The ongoing campaigns for many players typically follow the latter - crafting writs, surveys, annoying NPCs, and inventory space. If people, I don't just mean myself here, keep saying a system needs improvement, that's really indicative of a UX that needs looking at it in some fashion. Even change campaigns aside, we have the PTS threads and various Feedback threads and again crickets. Case in point, the new tutorial. People complain about how crowded and noisy the NPE is and many of us offered the same or similar strategy for how to fix it. Did ZOS implement that feedback, of course not. And like you're saying, it's not just that it wasn't implemented, it's that the engagement was scant on the ZOS side as to why.

Here, I would like to bring up that, even if ZOS wants to do something, it might take them months to get to it. This is a place were I would love it if ZOS stepped up and gave some indication of what they were thinking. Is this a "we would like to do more" or a "get off my lawn"? That would at least provide some direction, since they start work so many months out.

Of course, I have seen a variety of "ZOS promised this" stuff. Anything that ZOS said "we would like to do more" would be interpreted as "ZOS promised this". Each update someone would go through the checklist of "broken promises"

Nastassiya

A developer (the person) isn't a communication manager. The developers job is not to come on here and talk. That happens at small companies, such as Paradox, but not large ones, such a ZOS/Bethesda.

Developers take normally take basic English courses and comp sci technical writing courses and do not have an educational focus on communication. At least this is how, for me, when I was in computer science. In my pod, it's our manager that normally speaks for our team, with other teams. Since we are an airline, we do not talk to the public. We have a team that does that. Our social media team is often given as much info as they need, to do their job. It doesn't make much difference how much the public knows because the public will always find something to complain about. Also, we answer to shareholders, not passengers. Microsoft answers to shareholders, not the public.

ZOS is only a tiny part of Microsoft. If Microsoft is going to try to please any customers it will be with Azure so they can take more market share away from AWS>

ZOS_Kevin

Hey @6Kyojin6. Thanks for your thoughts and feedback here. I've been reading through this thread and appreciate the constructive feedback several of you have given so far.

While I'm still new and getting my feet wet, I am taking some of the suggestions down for the ZOS team and we will figure out some better ways to garner communication with you. That is one of our goals with the Forum Manager position. If anyone has any additional constructive thoughts about communication and interaction, continue to sound off in this thread. I'll be reading throughout the day.

Also just want to highlight what one of the mods said earlier. Please be sure to stay constructive and respectful. It's totally fine to be frustrated, but please do not bash anyone.

MasterSpatula

This is a seven-year-old complaint. For much of that seven years, there've been promises to do better. There've been promises to come up with a "strategy" for better communication.

And while certainly one can strategize making communication of a better quality, the issue not just one of quality but of quantity. Regardless, nothing apparent ever came of this "strategy."

Simply put, the lack of engagement makes players feel disrespected, and people who feel disrespected tend to act out and return disrespect with disrespect.

ZOS_Lunar

Greetings everyone!

We've removed some posts from this thread as they violated our rules on baiting and discussion of disciplinary action. We understand that everyone has their own opinions they want to express, but we also want the forums to be a constructive platform for ESO and its community.

Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.