Anyone else feel like dev communication needs to be heavily reworked?

NoireJin the Witchking

ZOS Devs never discuss popular issues and ideas on the forums. It's kind of negative experience when there are a myriad of issues that could be addressed, I'm not saying they need to agree with the player. But even stating why they disagree or sharing their stance backed by facts/experience will, I think, help the community. Rather then have an automated reply for only removing comments. Bigger corporations/games do this better, Riot devs regularly reply on forums. FFXIV devs listen to player wants and needs. Many other devs will even allow us in on seeing why they make certain changes and why they don't, they offer data. This is why boards are full of player issues and anger. Because they remain unaddressed for years.

For example, the popular topic as of late due to the laughable bosses in Blackwood, is harder story/overland content. If ZoS commented on such situations even if its disagreement backed by data and player testing, I'm certain many would understand. This is what happens for example with League of Legends, many threads are made about champion balance and often Devs would reply as to why they don't agree with such philosophy or if they're even looking into it. Here at ESO there radio silence, up until a new chapter is introduced. Thats the only brief period we have of communication with ZoS and even then it's cherrypicked questions. Not hot button issues that many players would appreciate being addressed. As a player, this makes the community feel not as united as it could be. Even WoW devs, despite there being a insane amount of hate posts lately ( i don't and never played wow but i check out the forums for the heck of it) still reply. I genuinely think ZoS needs to strive better on how they communicate with us instead of treating us like disposable income.

Starlight_Whisper

Want better communication? Get dev tack news, zos Twitter support and more news here

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Bonus daily endeavor news now too

Elo106

Agreed when they nerf skills no one uses, for what seems to us no apparent reason, or not buff classes that are clearly lacking it seems like they are out of touch with the game. Or CP 2.0, just answer some threads here every now and then and people can stop making threads about the same issues over and over again.

Just changing things randomly (from our POV) leads us to believe the devs dont know what they are doing.

Zos admitted to bad communication, but apparently theres nothing being done about it

AgaTheGreat

What communication?

Alucardo

I believe for something to be reworked it needs to exist in the first place.

NoireJin the Witchking

Alucardo wrote: »

I believe for something to be reworked it needs to exist in the first place.

You got me there ngl so true.

matterandstuff

I think it'd be a more compelling argument if the OP hadn't highlighted an absolute no-win issue for the devs as the main thing they wanted to discuss: hard overland content is something that doesn't exist for extremely obvious financial reasons but its absence makes a core of hardened players on the forums mad, and they're not likely to want to do a few rounds of explaining the obvious to people who it can't satisfy.

Reeb

I completely agree. I've never seen communication and community relations so badly managed in any actively developed online game. I've never got a single response to my countless bug reports despite the fact that frustrating bugs persist for months or years without being acknowledged. Out of many instances of contacting the technical support, they managed to help me just in one low-key case (getting a registration code for this forum), otherwise giving me unhelpful, canned or contradictory answers. [Here I provided an example response without referring to a specific person but it was censored].

It's especially sad given the fact that the ESO Community is rather dedicated and mature, regularly offering constructive feedback and concrete solutions to problems, sometimes putting a lot of effort to developing these. People desperately tag devs like @ZOS_GinaBruno but this never triggers any response. Of course, there is some level of unnecessary toxicity here too, but this would have been much lower if ZOS simply communicated with us rather than just to us.

ZOS, we just want to talk - why won't you?


[Edit to remove discussing moderator actions]

DinoZavr

Developers' AMA once a quarter might be nice.

Tinyfangs

oops 'fewer' not viewer, still waking -.- o.O

(is there an edit function?)

Firstmep

A lot of things they usually comment on, people just weren't there or don't remember when it was said or written.
The whole overland content too easy is a primary example. Its something they have discussed before, and it's done this way because they want completely new players to be able to be able to go anywhere in the world and do the content.
This is from way back when One Tamriel became a thing so it's understandable that most people wouldn't remember.
Just because something is hot topic for you, it doesn't mean it is for everyone.

ivelbob

Devs see no benefit to engaging with forum posts. Major new features have to be announced properly at their set time and place so devs will be limited to non-specifics, saying "no that feature's not happening and here's why" or their personal stances.

People on forums are bad at taking no for an answer so a dev reply will never settle the matter (we've seen this happen many times and people always hold out hope that enough posting will change corporate's mind on the issue at hand). Firestorm discussions will continue. Any data from a dev source will be interpreted as biased towards ZOS profit motives or outright dismissed because it will not negate a player's personal viewpoint or experience. Any dev that publicly declares a personal view that people don't agree with will be attacked.

Xebov

It would certainly help to get more report style replys that cover certain topics so the dev stance becomes more clear. I dont think that devs should actively discuss with the community. The devs job is to develope something, not to endlessly discuss things. What you searching for is the producer that is in charge and should briefly give some information why things are the way they are. You should keep in mind that some desicions are based on internal marketing and sales data that they dont want to be publicly available.

6Kyojin6 wrote: »

If ZoS commented on such situations even if its disagreement backed by data and player testing, I'm certain many would understand.

No they wouldnt. If you look around the threads opened in the forum you can see that the direction often is that players think their personal playstyle is important while everything else is not. Many players think they know exactly what should be done without looking at a wider picture. These players would still discuss like crazy. Thats one of the reasons you will never get discussions with the devs because noone has time for this and noone wants to deal with it.

biovitalb16_ESO

There would need to be communication for them to improve it. As it stands now there's basically none.

JKorr

Yes, because that always works out so well for them.

Vocal players with opinions: ZOS, fix X! Desperately needs a fix before all life in the galaxy dies.!!!!!!!!!

ZOS: We heard you, and are checking for the issues.

Vocal players with opinions: This NEEDS fixed!!!!! ASAP!!!!!!! Fix your pos game!!!!!

ZOS: We have a fix, and will take down the servers at 6a.m. EST. Estimate 2 hours.

Players with opinions: What?!?!? Unscheduled maintenance? ANOTHER maintenance??????? Why do you hate your players ZOS? Why schedule maintenance to fix issues?!?!?!
:time expires:

Players with opinions: OMG!!!! 2 hours and TEN seconds and the server isn't up! TEH devs LIED!!!!

Personal opinion; they are better off not communicating. There are legal issues, contracts, upcoming material and other things the players have no reason to hear about. Trying to satisfy the demand to justify every single thing would not be a good use of dev time. And you know there are people who would demand detailed discussion notes about why there are 2 torches to the right of the doorway, but 3 to the left.

khyrkat

Why would they communicate, they will never satisfy everyone and as seen by number of threads "omg i feel forced to play to get my free seals nuuuu" there is no point in doing ANYTHING for players one could think since players are always unhappy. Don't get me wrong, I've worked long enough in game industry to know stuff here and there and it is mostly better for studio to just do their thing. From PR side, it is bad to keep silence and ignore players so blatantly, but as long as money comes in there is no incentive to change it. Besides, how do you imagine them doing this? Listen to everyone and change things daily to satisfy individuals? Impossible. Truth is that they also ignore large groups pointing out ridiculous things that ruin gameplay but as said, as long as money comes in... There is no better solution than just do their stuff. I for one am absolutely not satisfied with how ZOS manages community relations but it is not the first studio to do it that way and not the last.

GenjiraX

I think I read that devs used to come onto the forum and engage with players.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile having devs here getting bogged down in ten different opinions on how to improve a given aspect of the game. It would be more useful if we had someone in the middle, who actively engaged with players, got involved in discussions, responded to serious concerns, and took them back to the devs. It’s a shame we don’t have anyone like that.

eternalshockcable

YIKES

With the player base being so massive I think what you're looking for is better quality control.
See you could have developers interact with you on a forum, yet that doesn't mean they'll do anything about
the problems they hear about.

Imagine a scenario where everyone is screaming " fire there's a fire!".
So many people screaming there is a fire , is just so much chaos, you would need to actually see the fire or hear the alarm.

With that being said, there is so much input going to the developers, that I think they have gotten so overwhelmed.

alberichtano

khyrkat wrote: »

Why would they communicate, they will never satisfy everyone and as seen by number of threads "omg i feel forced to play to get my free seals nuuuu" there is no point in doing ANYTHING for players one could think since players are always unhappy. Don't get me wrong, I've worked long enough in game industry to know stuff here and there and it is mostly better for studio to just do their thing. From PR side, it is bad to keep silence and ignore players so blatantly, but as long as money comes in there is no incentive to change it. Besides, how do you imagine them doing this? Listen to everyone and change things daily to satisfy individuals? Impossible. Truth is that they also ignore large groups pointing out ridiculous things that ruin gameplay but as said, as long as money comes in... There is no better solution than just do their stuff. I for one am absolutely not satisfied with how ZOS manages community relations but it is not the first studio to do it that way and not the last.

Free seals?? I WANT A FREE SEAL!!! *hugs imaginary seal-pet* *going to start thread about how we need seals as pets in ESO* ;-)

I agree. Since many of the wishes/demands are contradictory, it would be hard indeed to please even a majority of the players, I think. Some want more difficulty, others think things are too hard as they are, and so it goes. :-/

alberichtano

Elo106 wrote: »

Agreed when they nerf skills no one uses, for what seems to us no apparent reason, or not buff classes that are clearly lacking it seems like they are out of touch with the game. Or CP 2.0, just answer some threads here every now and then and people can stop making threads about the same issues over and over again.

Just changing things randomly (from our POV) leads us to believe the devs dont know what they are doing.

Zos admitted to bad communication, but apparently theres nothing being done about it

I can see why. For one, the devs themselves can't and shouldn't be bothered with this. It is not their expertise, and it would probably cause burnout faster than a bucket of oil and a flamethrower. :-(

Hiring people just for that would be an extra expense (and big companies hate extra expenses), one that would do really little good. Because the intermediaries would get a lot of contradictory input on various issues, and, sadly, also a lot of hate, trash and harassment. The internet is, sadly, not what it should be. :-(

SimonThesis

Definitely, something needs to change! While they have responded to a few occasional bugs and said they are looking into some. There are far too many bugs that have been around for years that the Devs refuse to admit exist, let alone fix. We are tired of the lack of communication, transparency, and the constant bug gaslighting from the devs and the community managers!

Even if they told us "hey we tried to fix this bug but we cant and wont so now its a feature good luck". The honesty and transparency would be a breath of fresh air.

I don't think they play their own game on the live servers so they dont encounter half of the bugs that we do. Ive played this game every day for years and have never seen a single dev on the live server.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Shantu

If I were in this dev group making some of these [snip] decisions, I wouldn't want to talk to players either. And no matter how many threads are started in the forum about the issue, things will not change. [snip]

[removed for profanity & bashing]

cynicalbutterfly

GenjiraX wrote: »

I think I read that devs used to come onto the forum and engage with players.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile having devs here getting bogged down in ten different opinions on how to improve a given aspect of the game. It would be more useful if we had someone in the middle, who actively engaged with players, got involved in discussions, responded to serious concerns, and took them back to the devs. It’s a shame we don’t have anyone like that.

A middle person is much needed on here. And not the regular forum mods either. Someone who is ready and willing to speak to both sides. Someone to gather information, give and take feedback, and answer questions. It's nice that the forum mods occassionally give some insight on topics but it needs to happen all the time, not once in a rare occasion. Perhaps things wouldn't be so negative on here if there was someone to talk to us and give us updates.

LoneStar2911

GenjiraX wrote: »

I don’t think it’s worthwhile having devs here getting bogged down in ten different opinions on how to improve a given aspect of the game. It would be more useful if we had someone in the middle, who actively engaged with players, got involved in discussions, responded to serious concerns, and took them back to the devs. It’s a shame we don’t have anyone like that.

Agreed. It would be great to have some people that are the “middlemen” and really interacted with us and discussed things with us on the forums. And it was their job to take real issues and great ideas back to the devs.

Tandor

GenjiraX wrote: »

I think I read that devs used to come onto the forum and engage with players.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile having devs here getting bogged down in ten different opinions on how to improve a given aspect of the game. It would be more useful if we had someone in the middle, who actively engaged with players, got involved in discussions, responded to serious concerns, and took them back to the devs. It’s a shame we don’t have anyone like that.

The trouble is that people don't follow the Dev Tracker to see the communication that does exist. Had those in this topic done so they would have seen that a Forum Manager has just been appointed, and that he states that he will "run the daily communications for the forum. So happy to chat or gather constructive feedback about ESO".

GenjiraX

Tandor wrote: »

GenjiraX wrote: »

I think I read that devs used to come onto the forum and engage with players.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile having devs here getting bogged down in ten different opinions on how to improve a given aspect of the game. It would be more useful if we had someone in the middle, who actively engaged with players, got involved in discussions, responded to serious concerns, and took them back to the devs. It’s a shame we don’t have anyone like that.

The trouble is that people don't follow the Dev Tracker to see the communication that does exist. Had those in this topic done so they would have seen that a Forum Manager has just been appointed, and that he states that he will "run the daily communications for the forum. So happy to chat or gather constructive feedback about ESO".

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Dev Tracker doesn't give any information beyond what's already included in the threads themselves. I think it's just a list a list of the very few threads that contain a (non-Dev) ZOS post. Is that correct?

The new Forum Manager thread is pinned to the top of the General ESO Discussion board, btw. Among many others, I posted a comment in it. Guess what response I got.

Tandor

GenjiraX wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

GenjiraX wrote: »

I think I read that devs used to come onto the forum and engage with players.

I don’t think it’s worthwhile having devs here getting bogged down in ten different opinions on how to improve a given aspect of the game. It would be more useful if we had someone in the middle, who actively engaged with players, got involved in discussions, responded to serious concerns, and took them back to the devs. It’s a shame we don’t have anyone like that.

The trouble is that people don't follow the Dev Tracker to see the communication that does exist. Had those in this topic done so they would have seen that a Forum Manager has just been appointed, and that he states that he will "run the daily communications for the forum. So happy to chat or gather constructive feedback about ESO".

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Dev Tracker doesn't give any information beyond what's already included in the threads themselves. I think it's just a list a list of the very few threads that contain a (non-Dev) ZOS post. Is that correct?

The new Forum Manager thread is pinned to the top of the General ESO Discussion board, btw. Among many others, I posted a comment in it. Guess what response I got.

That's correct, but the benefit of Dev Tracker is that it's an instant way of seeing what ZOS have been posting outside of routine moderation and avoids the need to scour the forums for their contributions as it lists them all in one readily accessible place. Of course, the disadvantage is that Dev Tracker isn't accessible on the mobile version of the forum and I wish they'd fix that.

kargen27

I would prefer the developers work on the game instead of responding to players in the forums. Better use of their time.

Long long ago a developer came into the forums and the thread he started became so toxic towards him and the developers in general I am not surprised they don't feel the need to come here.

FlopsyPrince

matterandstuff wrote: »

I think it'd be a more compelling argument if the OP hadn't highlighted an absolute no-win issue for the devs as the main thing they wanted to discuss: hard overland content is something that doesn't exist for extremely obvious financial reasons but its absence makes a core of hardened players on the forums mad, and they're not likely to want to do a few rounds of explaining the obvious to people who it can't satisfy.

It is also a very BAD request.

Some of us die often enough to some world bosses already. Run a trial solo if you want hard content! Run a harrowstorm by yourself! I still die to those a lot, even with decent gear and high CP (on the PS4 before switching the the PC.

I do agree that hearing some of the reasoning of the devs would be useful, but that has becoming less and less common over time as dev teams on MMOs isolate themselves from the players of their games. I haven't looked at the WoW forums lately, but things went way downhill when Ghostcrawler left a long time ago there and I can't see them being any better.

=====

I do think letting players have some voice of feedback that was truly important would have great value. Right now it feels like strong feelings and many really good ideas are just ignored. That is not a good thing.

Though it also would be good to have a way to get longstanding problems (flaws in quests, etc.) on track to be fixed. It is very annoying to find a problem and then do a search and find that it was mentioned on these forums 8 or more years ago. That shows they ignore customers AND that they don't fix things that really are problems.

I don't expect that to change though, unfortunately.

Making overland harder would be silly however, since that is not a "problem" for any but a small group who want to almost die at everything, even if it meant lots of dead bodies strewn about.

Ippokrates

JKorr wrote: »

Yes, because that always works out so well for them.

Vocal players with opinions: ZOS, fix X! Desperately needs a fix before all life in the galaxy dies.!!!!!!!!!

ZOS: We heard you, and are checking for the issues.

Vocal players with opinions: This NEEDS fixed!!!!! ASAP!!!!!!! Fix your pos game!!!!!

ZOS: We have a fix, and will take down the servers at 6a.m. EST. Estimate 2 hours.

Players with opinions: What?!?!? Unscheduled maintenance? ANOTHER maintenance??????? Why do you hate your players ZOS? Why schedule maintenance to fix issues?!?!?!
:time expires:

Players with opinions: OMG!!!! 2 hours and TEN seconds and the server isn't up! TEH devs LIED!!!!

Personal opinion; they are better off not communicating. There are legal issues, contracts, upcoming material and other things the players have no reason to hear about. Trying to satisfy the demand to justify every single thing would not be a good use of dev time. And you know there are people who would demand detailed discussion notes about why there are 2 torches to the right of the doorway, but 3 to the left.

Or maybe they could just acknowledge that problem exist (or maybe it is just not a problem because it was the design and there are other things that need to be taken into consideration) and they will do something about it during next maintenance or nearest patch.

And usually issues are focused over few crucial topics like classes and skills, rng, textures, lags & performance. If they are closing so many threads anyway, they could simply transfer discussion to others.

drunkendx

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

What communication?

EXACTLY.

Only communication from ZOS I've seen here was editing posts and locking threads.