[Poll] Do you want CP Changes, again?

MrZeDark

The poll says it all -

Please give your feedback!

It was suggested based on community, that these downgrades should occur and I'm interested on how much of this community actually agrees.

This is to discuss CP - not Proc Meta, PVP, or anything else outside the specific's of CP. Though arguments may be provided on how CP impacts any other specific content.

redspecter23

I'm all for more changes over time. ZOS even mentioned that they plan on adding more slotted abilities in the future and that's a great idea. I think ZOS are realizing far too late that they didn't actually want us to have any blue or red passives. This dialing back isn't being taken well by the majority of the community. Players don't have any idea when the cuts will actually end. They cut 20% off many stars on the original pts. They are cutting 50 - 60% again on this pts. Will they just remove passives completely next time? For me, it's the not knowing that is frustrating. I want to assume ZOS knows what they are doing, but that's actually not possible as they just keep cutting. Why not implement it that way in the beginning if that's what they wanted?

There is no way that this gutting is what players wanted. That's deflection onto the playerbase for a massively unpopular change and it's actually quite disappointing.

MrZeDark

redspecter23 wrote: »

I'm all for more changes over time. ZOS even mentioned that they plan on adding more slotted abilities in the future and that's a great idea. I think ZOS are realizing far too late that they didn't actually want us to have any blue or red passives. This dialing back isn't being taken well by the majority of the community. Players don't have any idea when the cuts will actually end. They cut 20% off many stars on the original pts. They are cutting 50 - 60% again on this pts. Will they just remove passives completely next time? For me, it's the not knowing that is frustrating. I want to assume ZOS knows what they are doing, but that's actually not possible as they just keep cutting. Why not implement it that way in the beginning if that's what they wanted?

I absolutely agree.

They spent so much time talking about the marvel and potential of CP 2.0 --- but seem to actually be pulling back. As nerfing passives to add more actives, isn't balance - if the new actives don't compensate any loss to the passives.

If it's what they intended, they should have implemented it in a reduced state. Giving us the expectation of adding flourishes later, instead of giving us a great system - only to pull back with no intent to balance on the same patch.

MacCait

100% do not want any more CP changes. It took some getting used to but overal I like the changes on Live. Nerfing it now by 50% is horrid.

The simple answer for anyone who wants more CP is to just play and earn it... nerfing by 50% to make it easier makes no sense and just hurts the larger population of regular players who earnt the CP over years

MrZeDark

MacCait wrote: »

100% do not want any more CP changes. It took some getting used to but overal I like the changes on Live. Nerfing it now by 50% is horrid.

The simple answer for anyone who wants more CP is to just play and earn it... nerfing by 50% to make it easier makes no sense and just hurts the larger population of regular players who earnt the CP over years

Agreed!

Don't roll back something that had such a lux introduction, it tears down the excitement we had for progression to take it all away!

MrZeDark

Lets see more vote's folks!

The votes are anonymous, you don't have to post - Not looking to target anyone here!

ThorianB

The only change i want to see as of right now is crafting and gathering slottables on green tree made passive. Red and blue trees need to be left alone for right now. We need time to really play with the new system and get a feel for it. You can't do that if they are making major changes it every other patch

Lady_Galadhiel

They already changed CP so much that imo for now its enough.If next year they want to look into it again,fine but now let player adapt and get familiar with the new system first.

MrZeDark

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

They already changed CP so much that imo for now its enough.If next year they want to look into it again,fine but now let player adapt and get familiar with the new system first.

Valid point - it's been what 2 months? Less than?

People haven't even really been provided an opportunity to level, with exception to those who utilized 100% of the back to back events -- Casual players haven't even really been provided an opportunity to see/feel the growth on the new XP scale.

Narthalion

I get that people want to feel like their characters are "finished" so they can focus on chasing gear or other milestones. CP 2.0 took "finished" characters and made them "unfinished" again, and made the bar to "finished" seem much farther away for newer players. That's obviously what's at the heart of these nerfs: let people get to "finished" quicker.

Maybe I'm the outlier here but it doesn't bother me to have these specific goalposts moved, so I'm cool with it and want them to leave it alone.

If they truly believe they need to reduce the number of points needed to get to "finished" then reduce the points needed for each stage of those passives, rather than nerfing the values (which already feel about as low as they could make them without them feeling trivial). So 5 stages, 5 points per stage, current values. Half the required points, all the fun.

Advantages of doing it that way: newer people leveling up get to see more boosts earlier in the leveling curve. Vet players feel rewarded for their time investment. And assuming ZOS had everything balanced for the original values, they can skip the extra balance passes making this changes would seem to require.

Unless ZOS really does believe the entire game is unbalanced and they got the numbers wrong, in which case the nerf bat is inevitable.

Halcyon_Kismet

I feel they are making a mistake changing the CP system this soon after implementation while simultaneously choosing the worst possible method to go about changing it.

MrZeDark

Narthalion wrote: »

I get that people want to feel like their characters are "finished" so they can focus on chasing gear or other milestones. CP 2.0 took "finished" characters and made them "unfinished" again, and made the bar to "finished" seem much farther away for newer players. That's obviously what's at the heart of these nerfs: let people get to "finished" quicker.

Maybe I'm the outlier here but it doesn't bother me to have these specific goalposts moved, so I'm cool with it and want them to leave it alone.

If they truly believe they need to reduce the number of points needed to get to "finished" then reduce the points needed for each stage of those passives, rather than nerfing the values (which already feel about as low as they could make them without them feeling trivial). So 5 stages, 5 points per stage, current values. Half the required points, all the fun.

Advantages of doing it that way: newer people leveling up get to see more boosts earlier in the leveling curve. Vet players feel rewarded for their time investment. And assuming ZOS had everything balanced for the original values, they can skip the extra balance passes making this changes would seem to require.

Unless ZOS really does believe the entire game is unbalanced and they got the numbers wrong, in which case the nerf bat is inevitable.

Excellent way to proceed, and truly how many of us read the patch notes. We had assumed only the cost went down, as opposed to cost and value. As reducing the cost and value, really didn't change anything accept capping higher lvl's -- and keeping lower lvl's at a cost to get the same value as higher level members.

As if it cost 40 points to get to 4% healing done, then it cost 20 points to get to 2%
The new system is still 20 points to 2%

So it is just a nerf without providing some other passive gain to mitigate that other 2% loss-- I mean I could argue that your healing is increased by 2% when you critically heal (for 3 seconds every 5 seconds). It mitigates having a 100% up time of 4% healing done bonus, but actually does create a sort of balance to a loss.

or

We lose 500 Mag, but now there is a passive that when you fall below 25% magicka you increase your damage with magicka abilities by 1% (~0.5%?) per rank for 3 seconds over with a 5 second CD or until your magicka passes 50%.

DinoZavr

The problem is that already now CP2.0 does NOT provide enough vertical progression:
crit chance, sustain, penetration (for stamina classes) are already insufficient.
Cutting this by half is quite a drastic measure, devaluing the CP.

What i expected is that vertical progression could provide enough defensive and offensive bonuses to make player not much depending on gear. Like with no CP i have to carefully select my sets to cap pen, improve crit chanceto get 14K crit (65%) and achieve 2K sustain. Obviously with no CP it should be impossible to improve all of these.
With CP, however i expected to obtain reasonable stats not to be bound to gear and select sets depending on circumstances (like i need more resists in DC2, i need more crit in nAA, i'd prefer more sustain for nCR). Also it is when horizontal progression comes into play: increase this for a price od decreasing that. This worked fine in CP1.0 in blue constellations where we traded pen for crit or upfront damage.

With CP2.0 as it is implemented now there is no horizontal progression (imho) as the vertical one yet can not be completed. Even without further decrease of CP bonuses - right now i see the dire shortage of crit, pen (yes i play stamina) and sustain. I simply cannot trade one for another as i don't have enough all of these stats. And i am bound to my gear.
For example i MUST use Deadly Strikes (as using other sets decrease my DPS) and Spriggans (as using other sets also decrease my DPS by approx (1-(18200-3460)/18200)*100 = 19%) on my stamplar. After CP. Again, after CP.

As for now CP2.0 provides a dire shortage of bonuses, making horizontal progression questionable.
Further decreasing crit, pen, sustain any further turns horizontal progression into a joke: hey, guys, we let you to choose which of these poor options, huzza!

dhoward5b14_ESO

I don't care a lot either way, but they should not have max nodes that give you something almost meaningless like 2% less damage - just delete the node or buff it to something useful.

MrZeDark

DinoZavr wrote: »

The problem is that already now CP2.0 does NOT provide enough vertical progression:
crit chance, sustain, penetration (for stamina classes) are already insufficient.
Cutting this by half is quite a drastic measure, devaluing the CP.

What i expected is that vertical progression could provide enough defensive and offensive bonuses to make player not much depending on gear. Like with no CP i have to carefully select my sets to cap pen, improve crit chanceto get 14K crit (65%) and achieve 2K sustain. Obviously with no CP it should be impossible to improve all of these.
With CP, however i expected to obtain reasonable stats not to be bound to gear and select sets depending on circumstances (like i need more resists in DC2, i need more crit in nAA, i'd prefer more sustain for nCR). Also it is when horizontal progression comes into play: increase this for a price od decreasing that. This worked fine in CP1.0 in blue constellations where we traded pen for crit or upfront damage.

With CP2.0 as it is implemented now there is no horizontal progression (imho) as the vertical one yet can not be completed. Even without further decrease of CP bonuses - right now i see the dire shortage of crit, pen (yes i play stamina) and sustain. I simply cannot trade one for another as i don't have enough all of these stats. And i am bound to my gear.
For example i MUST use Deadly Strikes (as using other sets decrease my DPS) and Spriggans (as using other sets also decrease my DPS by approx (1-(18200-3460)/18200)*100 = 19%) on my stamplar. After CP. Again, after CP.

As for now CP2.0 provides a dire shortage of bonuses, making horizontal progression questionable.
Further decreasing crit, pen, sustain any further turns horizontal progression into a joke: hey, guys, we let you to choose which of these poor options, huzza!

So would you say then; based on your opinion, you are starved for combat attribute progression - and the 50% cut only makes it that much worse?

WhyMustItBe

Narthalion wrote: »

I get that people want to feel like their characters are "finished" so they can focus on chasing gear or other milestones. CP 2.0 took "finished" characters and made them "unfinished" again, and made the bar to "finished" seem much farther away for newer players. That's obviously what's at the heart of these nerfs: let people get to "finished" quicker.

If this is ZOS's reasoning they are opperating from a badly flawed premise.

The whole purpose of the CP system was PROGRESSION. This game has no other progression. You get to CP160 (which can be done in a single day, as I have done it on multiple accounts) and have access to max level gear, after which point your only option for character progression is to earn CP.

By doing this they are effectively removing any meaningful progression. 5% more damage to one damage type is not meaningful progression.

Name one other game where new players can pull out their credit card and buy a game, and that same day expect to jump into end game raid content. EVERYONE has to level up. This idea they need to make it easier for new players is fine but you don't gut the only progression system the game has to do it.

Just increase the XP bonus you get from being under some arbitrary catch-up cap like they already had in the game. That makes it faster for new players to catch up without ruining progression and build diversity for everyone.

They already have the Enlightenment system as well. This is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist, which causes far worse problems. Bad show.

notachik

Cut the cost but leave the values alone..as a mostly hybrid player u was happy for the mag Stan and health..my first 80 of 270 points in the blue tree went straight into those..cutting them just means a waste of 20 cp to unlock the next star that’s all they would be good for.

MrZeDark

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

Narthalion wrote: »

I get that people want to feel like their characters are "finished" so they can focus on chasing gear or other milestones. CP 2.0 took "finished" characters and made them "unfinished" again, and made the bar to "finished" seem much farther away for newer players. That's obviously what's at the heart of these nerfs: let people get to "finished" quicker.

If this is ZOS's reasoning they are opperating from a badly flawed premise.

The whole purpose of the CP system was PROGRESSION. This game has no other progression. You get to CP160 (which can be done in a single day, as I have done it on multiple accounts) and have access to max level gear, after which point your only option for character progression is to earn CP.

By doing this they are effectively removing any meaningful progression. 5% more damage to one damage type is not meaningful progression.

Name one other game where new players can pull out their credit card and buy a game, and that same day expect to jump into end game raid content. EVERYONE has to level up. This idea they need to make it easier for new players is fine but you don't gut the only progression system the game has to do it.

Just increase the XP bonus you get from being under some arbitrary catch-up cap like they already had in the game. That makes it faster for new players to catch up without ruining progression and build diversity for everyone.

They already have the Enlightenment system as well. This is a solution for a problem that doesn't exist, which causes far worse problems. Bad show.

I agree with your comments.

Making changes that are strictly a nerf, with no subsequent balance added - is a step backwards and not a step forwards within their desire to tweak progression.

It is hard to progress, if they take away stepping stones that actually allow players to move forward within the scope of their new CP Cap.

I know for my current CP level, if this PTS CP change goes live - I am done with progressing, the remaining 2200 CP's are absolutely meaningless to me. The only value added is now my DPS can swap gear and active to be a healer or a tank! But I don't want that - I have tanks, who I chose gear/race/abilities specifically for that. There is no flexibility within current actives for my DPS, as I do crit, AOE, DOT. So backstabber, fighting finesse, thaum, and bitter. Maybe I'll swap to wraithful if I can't flank a target-- but that's it... all my progress was to be for the passives to develop more damage. Now on the PTS my passives that I care about are capped, so I'm capped, my dmg is capped.

Catering to the lower levels that feel its unfair that high lvls do more, is hurtful. I was excited for CP 2.0, I was excited to level and grow. Now I feel like the 810 I was for so long, going nowhere.

MrZeDark

Keep voting everyone!!!

Seeing lots of views! No requirement to post, but the more votes we get - the better the sample is.

As the Patch Notes suggest, CP's were Nerfed due to community - so lets plainly demonstrate with a solid sample population in the poll!

Doesn't matter which way you sway, votes are anonymous - and I really don't want any retaliatory commentary. I just want proof of the direction the community wants.

DinoZavr

@MrZeDark

thank you, my friend. quite a good summary. Although, what worries me is that players and game-makers understand progression very differently.

What i expected is that CP would:
- help player to become stronger (vertical progression)
- provide player with reasonable trade-offs (horizontal progression)
Unfortunately, CP2.0 for the most of it, fails to reach these goals.

Bonuses provided by vertical progression still do not reach the progression goal: from very restricted, the character becomes reasonably crippled (and game-makers want to lower the ceiling even more, devaluing progress. I am a casual player and it took me about one year to reach CP810, now, after 2 years, my main is about CP1150 and i don't appreciate running Skyreach Catacombs every day).

Horizontal progression, instead of giving player a good freedom of trade-off between benefits transforms into choosing between weaknesses and this entire concept does not make me any happier.

So yes, you are right. Still i am worrying about the progression as a concept. And, yes, 2x castration in my opinion is not quite justified (or i don't understand a lot of things), so i'd be happy to see developers comments on the decisions being done.

MrZeDark

DinoZavr wrote: »

@MrZeDark

thank you, my friend. quite a good summary. Although, what worries me is that players and game-makers understand progression very differently.

What i expected is that CP would:
- help player to become stronger (vertical progression)
- provide player with reasonable trade-offs (horizontal progression)
Unfortunately, CP2.0 for the most of it, fails to reach these goals.

Bonuses provided by vertical progression still do not reach the progression goal: from very restricted, the character becomes reasonably crippled (and game-makers want to lower the ceiling even more, devaluing progress. I am a casual player and it took me about one year to reach CP810, now, after 2 years, my main is about CP1150 and i don't appreciate running Skyreach Catacombs every day).

Horizontal progression, instead of giving player a good freedom of trade-off between benefits transforms into choosing between weaknesses and this entire concept does not make me any happier.

So yes, you are right. Still i am worrying about the progression as a concept. And, yes, 2x castration in my opinion is not quite justified (or i don't understand a lot of things), so i'd be happy to see developers comments on the decisions being done.

I am with you when it comes to the grind - I do play heavily, I do. But I'm not the type to grind at all, I did a little bit of grinding. However compared to others who really ran with it during the XP events.. you could consider my 'lvling' casual. So I really looked forward to seeing growth, within my own time.

I really would like to see developer commentary as well, outside suggesting the community was demanding a nerf of any kind. I've heard a lot of great suggestions from the community here on the forums and In-Game, Discord. Lots of great ideas and lots of hopes on how this new system will expand - but not one of them suggested the upcoming attribute nerf was a thing they wanted, least not with something offset such a drop.

I also agree that they need to address how Vertical and Horizontal growth occur - as CP 2.0's first intro, was pretty on par with CP 1.0 -- I get that the new system will allow them to expound on it, and balance will come. Plus we will likely see some more interesting CP (Active/Passive) down the line. I just feel as though they are pulling the trigger too early on change, since U29.

If they want to make changes to CP 2.0, more time needs to go by and more implementation of Passives/Actives need to occur at the same time (when debuffing existing ones), though not Actives that don't compensate any loss at all to passives. I more so mean more passives that maybe have triggers. So that way it can be clear as to the balance they are trying to provide - as opposed to just taking away.

I look forward to future iterations of CP 2.0, just not while we are left in the dark on their reasons, and not so hastily done.

Narthalion

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

If this is ZOS's reasoning they are opperating from a badly flawed premise.

The whole purpose of the CP system was PROGRESSION.

Agreed, and ZOS is pretty clear about their reasoning. Straight from the patch notes:

"In response to the feedback that there is still too much vertical progression in the Champion Point system, we have further reduced the maximum number of stages for passive stars (non-slotted) available. This will lower the vertical progression cap to 1560 rather than 2100 in the Warfare tree, and 1626 rather than 2352 in the Fitness tree. This will reduce the maximum power of the Champion Point system as well."

Too much vertical progression -- they need to lower the caps. By a lot. That's the feedback motivating these changes. I don't think that feedback is coming from players who feel they're too powerful now, because of CP passives. Nor does it make sense to say "this other guy has 500 more magicka than me so now I can't compete" since the deficits of being under cap aren't extreme by any measure. The only driving impulse that makes sense to me, is players' perception that they're missing something because they're not maxxed yet. Not "finished" with the progression. They had that sense of "I dinged that, I completed that" and then CP 2.0 took it away. They want it back, ASAP, and ZOS is poised to cave immediately and make it easier for them to do that.

DinoZavr

@MrZeDark
i m trying to select the proper English wording (it is not an easy task for a non native-speaker) and to be brief:

In my humble opinion: what happens now (with these subsequent nerfs) is that vertical progression does not allow to reach a good stats (damage, crit, pen, sustain and mitigation) because of "lowering the ceiling" and the horizontal progression (e.g. freedom of choices) degenerates into the vertical one continued, just because of the necessity to fill the gaps, intentionally left by the initial vertical progression. No freedom means - no happy players.

Gederic

As someone who has been playing since Beta, CP 2.0 was something of a welcome change, it was certainly far from perfect but being well over CP 810 it felt good to earn CP and it actually mean something again, even if it wasn't a huge bonus, and even if DPS/tanking/healing all took a hit. Again far from perfect balance wise but hey it was a start and I thought we'd get there. Because lets be real people complain about "the grind" but at the end of the day some sense of progression albeit minor is something that's going to keep you around.

Now we see that nothing really changes. Zos will do what they have always done which is to slash and burn and nerf in the name of helping new people get up to power faster. But I don't think it really accomplishes that goal. Honestly, I'm not sure who this feels good for? If you are new and earning CP you can max them out faster but they mean far less and your sense of accomplishment for your hard work is null. And if you are veteran player. Well you might as well just hit the road because you mean nothing to ZOS. Your continued enjoyment (and for that matter continued patronage to ole zenny) means jack... CP 2.0 was already a nerf, but at least it was palatable, we were moving on to a newish system. Now we are nerfing hard again in the very next patch? Who actually wants that? What part of constant big nerfs scream "I really want to keep playing (and paying for) this game."

Struggling to figure that part out...

TX12001rwb17_ESO

What an odd design choice:

They went and increased the CP but do not want players becoming any stronger? did it not occur to them someone with 2000 CP would be stronger then someone with 500 CP? why even increase it in the first place?

Who is at fault here? Is it the PvP players due to balance in PvP? why not just remove the CP campaigns altogether, no CP PvP is much more fun and engaging, for PvE I do not see why it matters if one player is 10x stronger then another or is it about a scoreboard that a significantly large portion of the player base does not care about.

I was on the PTS and felt that a character with 3600 CP was pretty weak and the CP slots need to stay or be buffed, they do not need nerfing to the point that their is no point in leveling, before you know it the difference between a level 50 character with no CP and a character with 3600 CP will be smaller then the difference between a Level 50 character and a level 40 character.

Nord_Raseri

How about Reduce CP passives' cost by 50% and effect by 50%. Or nothing.

MrZeDark

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

How about Reduce CP passives' cost by 50% and effect by 50%. Or nothing.

That would have made more sense to their idea. Though I’m fine with offsetting loss with utility based passives that compensate the loss even if there is a cd.

But that’s balance, what they are doing is a nerf.

MrZeDark

Anymore votes before the poll expires? They are anonymous, btw.

Not required to post, just seeking good information.

gddanielb16_ESO

It's 100% appreciated that it would be game-death to expect new folks to try to catch up to those who've invested countless hours in the game. Hence "horizontal progression vs. vertical". But let's be honest. Horizontal progression is not progression. It's simply a "cap" using nicer words.

Four active "buffs" per tree is clearly limiting to those with many CP. They will also likely be set to "near-identical" for all players in their peer-group ... providing zero benefit to those who have supported ESO financially for all these past years. Zero benefit and zero contribution to distinguishing between players.

I'm in a guild where an active new player five weeks in ... now has 400+CP. Cool. I spend some time on the dolmen circuit during the past event to level up missing skills. Numerous players were blasting into CP ranks in a single day. Much of that was 2x event XP of course, but it's sad they miss all content.

There simply MUST be some balance here. Removing the ability to improve one's capability in the game is equally a formula for game-death ... even for new folks. Why spend the time if you can't get better? What reward is there for those who've literally paid the salaries of those who've dedicated nearly a decade to create and keep the game we love fresh?

Add to this the fact that the proposed changes FURTHER nerf progression? That's just wrong. Please reconsider.

Active since Beta. 1800+CP.

rexagamemnon

Leave current stages, add more champion points

Starlight_Whisper

Yep but not the same things you want