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For us non-gamblers, can we get some cooler mount options please? I'll pay the crowns....

Leave a Reply
  • ThorianB
    ThorianB
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    Brrrofski wrote: »
    I don't know why people defend crates so badly.
    Old argument: Because there is no good argument against crown crates. 99% of the people who complain about crown crates complain because there is something in there that they don't want to pay the price for. But those are the conditions of owning those items.

    Current argument: There is NOTHING in a crown crate which you need to spend real life money to acquire so i don't understand why this is even an argument still. As of june there will be a second solution to acquire crate items without real money. This should not even be a discussion anymore.
    WhyMustItBe wrote: »
    kargen27 wrote: »
    Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase them knowing you will get four random items And sometimes a bonus item maybe. Same way baseball cards work. Same way those machines by the bubblegum machines work.

    All for another way to get cool mounts but crown crates simply are not gambling.

    I don't know why people continue to try and make this argument. Crown Crates absolutely ARE gambling.

    You take real money, exchange them for virtual gambling tokens, and receive random items with no guarantee they will be of value to you. It is no different than going to a Las Vegas casino, buying poker chips with real money, and sitting down at a card table.

    This simple abstraction may be enough to fool some of the people some of the time but it is obviously gambling however the people running the casino choose to rationalize it.

    The real question we should be asking ourselves, is if this is the sort of practice we choose to encourage in digital entertainment largely marketed to younger people.

    Thankfully more and more countries around the world are beginning to see the negative effect addiction has on psychology and answering with a resounding NO.

    They are only gambling in the broadest strech of the definition. But they are in the same category of gambling , as it was pointed out, as trading cards,"toy in a plastic bubble", and similar methods in which every "play" bought always gives a prize.Most of these can be bought by children of any age who can understand the purchasing mechanism and has the money to do so. Not a single peep about this being gambling. Even the grappling claw machines that you almost never get a prize on is gambling... it actually satisfies the definition of gambling moreso than the others i have mentioned. Some argue that it is a game of skill but its not. The claw mechanism is designed in a way in which its jerky movements and "slight" inaccuracy seem to always get you to just miss what you are aiming for. How could they afford to keep the machine stocked with stuffed animals at 50 cent a play if it was a game of skill? They couldnt' so it only appears to be a game of skill. People are ok with this form of gambling...by children.

    One of the biggest arguments needed for gambling is that the prize as to have some real world value. For example trading cards can be worth money later much like an investment or based on rarity. With sports cards, cards of players have a real world value based on who is on the card and how well they are doing in their career. Cards with manufacturer defects such as off center stamping also have an instant increase in real world value because of the rarity of the defect. Cards can be sold for money.

    Crate items have ZERO real world value. You don't even own the items( read the TOS and EULA). They are the sole property of Zenimax. When you spend money in a video game, its gone like a subscription to Netflix. It holds no real world value and cannot be sold( legally) for real world currency. Also when ZOS shuts this game down, everything on your account disappears and you lose access to it. This is because it doesn't belong to you. It belongs to ZOS.

    So the items in crown crates are almost like trading cards, except trading cards actually have a real world value and children can by them and nothing you "acquire" in this game is yours. ZOS just grants you access to it when you meet their requirements. So nothing in the game is actually gambling because it doesn't have a real world value. Only when we stretch the traditional definition of gambling to a very broad sense can we include loot boxes.

    Lastly, there is nothing wrong with gambling. 54% of the worlds population gambles at least once a year and 21% gamble regularly. According to recent studies, 99.1% of(US) adults do not have or develop a gambling addiction despite that we are constantly presented with REAL gambling opportunities in our daily lives.

    There is nothing wrong with gambling. There is no reason why people who enjoy it should not be allowed to do it because some people cannot control themselves. If you( general use) cannot control your( general use) temptations, you should seek professional help to deal with those temptations, not go on a crusade to try to remove them from the planet. THAT is being a responsible adult.

    Any other argument against gambling isn't an argument, its just people wanting to dictate the terms of acquiring "prizes" and that isn't up to them that is up to the owner of the prize.
    Edited by ThorianB on April 28, 2021 3:07PM
  • AlnilamE
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    Brrrofski wrote: »
    I don't know why people defend crates so badly.

    All people want is an actual price for what they want. Even if it's £100 for a mount, people just want to know that if they spend that much, they'll get it.

    What other part of life works on a game of chance? Buying clothes, or food, or a car isn't a lucky dip.

    Honestly baffles me that gamers still take this crap and don't just avoid loot crates. Then gaming companies might have to change how they make money from their game.

    I have no issue with there being a cash shop that sells cosmetics in any game. I buy stuff from them. I don't like the RNG aspect loot crates. It's a total predatory way to make money and makes me question the ethics and values of a company that has loot boxes as part of their game.

    I don't defend crates. I simply don't buy them.

    They can have the coolest mount in the universe, one that talks to you and teaches you dungeon mechanics, or whatnot.

    I've bought them once and that was it. If they want me to spend my crowns, they will have to put the stuff directly in the store.

    End of story.
    The Moot Councillor
  • Kiralyn2000
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    Zenzuki wrote: »
    Game isn't marketed to "little kids".

    But Pokemon (dogfighting with wild/endangered animals!), CCGs (gotta love those random card packs!), and "what prize is in the capsule" coin machines are! o:)
    Brrrofski wrote: »
    Endeavors for sure aren't goodwill.

    My guess is that they're trying to get people who don't buy crates to buy crates.

    People 100% will start earning them, realise they want something and probably buy crates to finish off the amount of gems.

    Wow, you guys are cynical.

    I thought Endeavors was an interesting idea, and good progress towards opening up "crate rewards" to everyone.
    (disclaimer: I think that free crates are a wonderful turn-off to show why you don't want to spend actual $ on them, and I think that the mounts in the crates are the least interesting prize.)



    Thankfully more and more countries around the world are beginning to see the negative effect addiction has on psychology and answering with a resounding NO.

    You do realize that many of the same mechanisms are in videogames without (and before) microtransactions/etc? What else would you consider doing Baal run after Baal run in Diablo 2, breaking open that prize pack boss to see if the Cool Thing You Wanted dropped? Ditto for dungeon runs (did the boss drop My Item?!?!), vMA runs, etc. And anything else with random-drop loot that gives you that "ooh, did it? YES!" charge when you press the button in the Skinner box.

    If you really want to fight against "they're taking advantage of addictive tendencies" in gaming, you have to oppose all random loot.
  • Kalik_Gold
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    How about this strange thing in MMO's called quest rewards? Even - wait, long epic quests, that may be hard for casuals? That don't require a raid team...

    Main: (PvP & PvE)
    Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar, the Vestige

    PvP:
    Aurik Siet'ka a Redguard Necromancer
    Cacique the Sage of Ius a Redguard Warden
    Jux Blackheart a Redguard Nightblade
    Goliath of Hammerfell a Redguard Dragonknight
    Kaotik Von Dae'mon a Redguard* Sorcerer

    PvP: (Specialty)
    Tyrus Septim an Imperial Lycan Sorcerer
    Tsar af-Bomba a Redguard Vampiric Nightblade
    Movárth Piquine a Nord Vampiric Necromancer
    Uri Ice-Heart the Twin a Nord Vampiric Warden

    PvE:
    Cinan Tharn an Imperial Dragonknight
    Bates Vesuius of Dawnstar an Imperial Dragonknight
    Herzog Zwei the Genesis an Akavari* Templar
    Tav'i at-Shinji a Redguard** Warden
    Lucky Hunch the Gambler - a Redguard Nightblade

    Leveling...
    Zenovia at-Tura a Redguard** Sorcerer
    Yesi af-Kalik a Redguard Templar
    Voa a Priest of Sep a Redguard* Necromancer
    ======
    Passives of another race used. (RP)
    *Breton
    **Imperial




    __________________________Backstories:_________________________

    Ras Kalik the Vestige, a renown Redguard warrior; He has been blessed to save Tamriel from Molag Bal’s destructive Planemeld while reuniting the Five Companions. His further accomplishments after defeating Molag Bal, has been to stop the destruction of Morrowind, the Clockwork City, return order to the isle of Summerset and create a new king in Wrothgar and a queen in Elsywer. These events have made him a living legend and continue to lead him into new adventures throughout Tamriel, as well as into the hearts of many ladies including the Elf Queen, Aryenn. Over many years of adventurous travels, Ras Kalik had become a loner, until he re-visited his homeland of Alik'r.

    Alik'r and it's cities were overrun by the undead Ra-Netu and therefore he made an allegiance with Alik'r's own Ash'abah tribe. These Ash'abah with his help, cleansed the city of Sentinel in Alik'r desert and it's surrounding areas of the undead brought to life by the Withered Hand. After rescuing Sentinel from the undead zombies, King Fahara’jad’s personal bodyguard the Goliath of Hammerfell, who was given this name by Imperials in the region; was asked to assist the tribe after learning of the defeat of the Withered Hand to the Ash'abah. Kalik promised Goliath he would task him with fighting living enemies on the battlefield if he so desired. Goliath being a Yokudan warrior wields a massive sword in respect to the Ansei, a gift given by the Imperial, Cinan Tharn. Not many soldiers are able to wield double two handed weapons, but Goliath loves to get up and personal in a fight, so he also carries a giant maul, both weapons laced with magical flames.

    Jux Blackheart is a master thief that masquerades as a Bard at the Sisters of the Sands inn, with his younger sidekick Lucky Hunch for pilfering and gambling during this time. Jux was known to infiltrate any towns bank vault he came across and even delved into Ayelid ruins without detection. Kalik can vividly recall the night he met the famed thief. Jux found himself rummaging thru a slightly inebriated Kalik’s pocket for too long, on a full-mooned night and because of his greed and the glimmer of his golden armor in the moonlight. He lost his left pinky fingertip as a lesson! But in return, he gained a new friend, as it was his first time since a child being caught red-handed...

    Upon arrival back in the Alik'r after many moons of adventuring, Ras Kalik ventures to Bergama. Visiting The Winking Jackal, he runs into Jux Blackheart, who introduces him to the coin game Crowns vs Forebearers (Heads vs Tails) and Golden Dwemer (RBG).... Jux constantly takes gold from the unfortunate thru theft or gambling, his biggest gambling victim is actually his partner in crime known as Lucky Hunch the Gambler. Lucky doesn't mind losing any gold coins to Jux... as Jux saved him from Altmer slavers in Summerset, by stealing a key and sending him on a boat to the mainland years prior. Lucky spent years in slavery with Khajiits in Summerset and picked up the art of subterfuge, using illusion magic disguises and stealing there.

    Kaotik Von’Daemon an outcast, and a half-caste between a Breton mother and a Redguard father. Kaotik become a pariah due to his conjuration of Daedra pets. He was taught healing magic during his childhood years by his Breton mother. His father due to Redguard customs exiled him from the desert, sending him by wagon caravan to be a soldier in the war in Cyrodiil. He happened to meet Kalik while traveling from Alik'r, during this long caravan ride the caravan he was in was ambushed in Bangkorai by a group of bandits. Kalik by chance was also traveling thru this area on his Auridon Warhorse (which was bestowed to him by his friend, Darien Gautier). During this ambush, Kalik was able to rescue five hostages from the bandits. Kaotik was the first rescued, and Ras Kalik also recruited him to be in the Ash'abah tribe. These core Ash'abah tribesmen may never be seen together in travel as they partake in their own adventures but they always know what each other is doing; as they frequent a hideout in northern Bankorai. Their hideout an old Orc castle ruin, is kept watch by Nuzhimeh and she passes messages written between them, and frequently they also enjoy her company and her bed.

    The other men rescued were a Dunmer banker, an Imperial mercenary and two other soldiers, an Imperial and a Breton Knight, stating proudly he was an Akavir descendent. One of the Imperials, Cinan, claimed to be related to Abnur Tharn the Battlemage of the Imperial Elder Council (One of Ras Kalik's mentors in the Five Companions). Cinan Tharn was really Abnur's drunkard treasure hunting illegitimate son. He was caught smuggling artifacts out of the Ayleid ruins in Cyrodiil and the elder of the two Imperials was Tyrus Septim a retired Imperial navy battle-mage (now a Lycan mercenary living in the city of Rimmen) and guard to the Tharn family. As much as Abnur Tharn hated his half-sister Euraxia, he dislikes his bas†ard son Cinan more. Tyrus now a ruffian and privateer had been paid by Abnur Tharn to watch over Cinan as much as possible. Cinan Tharn a drunkard, loves to drink at least a quarter barrel of Nord mead before he raids various delves and dungeons for relics to sell on the black market. Cinan also plans to one day, run an illegal gambling ring... which he thinks will net him more gold for his wares.

    The Dunmer captive shackled to the Imperials looked familiar to Kalik from his time in Morrowind.... and he recognized him as Tythis Andromo a House Telvanni slave-owner and banker from Vvardenfell. During a rough interrogation to Tythis, Ras Kalik learnt why the bandits accosted him. The racist Dunmer was providing slaves as soldiers for the Three Banner War. The bandits were trying to negotiate a lucrative ransom for Andromo and the Imperials.... Kalik did not need any of this gold and he could never set Tythis free as he did with the two Imperial soldiers. His past involvement with slavery and war crimes, made Kalik's blood boil. He chose not to execute Tythis, as he figured the worse punishment for this former rich and opulent slave owner, is to now be an imprisoned servant for Ras Kalik and the tribe.

    Herzog Zwei the Genesis a reknown Imperial/Akavirri battle-mage. His roots going back to Akavir through his mother’s bloodline. (His mother is descended from the Akaviri, through Versidue-Shae, and his Imperial father met her in Hakoshae, while traveling) Herzog earned the nickname "the Genesis" from his father as a child, as he was his mother's first born child, and last, as she tragically died in child-birth.

    Herzog was seeking to purchase an artifact from Cinan Tharn, before their capture and was meeting Tyrus while in Rimmen, who introduced him to Cinan. This artifact being the Ayelid artifact; the sword Sinweaver. After their rescue and the exchange of gold to Cinan for the sword he decided to slip away before Ras Kalik could question who he was, and why the Akavir descendant really wanted that sword. Herzog was headed to Nagastani — An Ayleid ruin in eastern Cyrodiil. He had read in scrolls that the Sword would give him magical powers to meet his mothers spirit, if he performed an Ayleid ritual at an old shrine hidden there. Equipped with the artifact sword, he was off to start his own adventure but Ras Kalik, did indeed notice the sword however and instead sent a letter to Jux Blackheart (whom also was interested in Ayleid treasures), to attempt to find Herzog and acquire the sword. (*Azani Blackheart in Elder Scroll's Oblivion is Jux's descendant some 747 years later)

    And so the Redguard, Imperial and Akaviri men parted ways ... While Ras Kalik went off to Elsweyr to encounter the latest threat to Tamriel, with Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan - - DRAGONS!! Little did Ras Kalik know a few people were awaiting him in Senchal besides Sai. A necromancer survived his attack on the Withered Hand, while in Alik'r. The necromancer known as Auriek Siet'ka is also following him to the land of the Khajiits and Cacique the Sage of Ius a Shaman mystic who has become attuned spiritually with Tu'whacca (a Redguard God) and Ius (the Animal God), after being burned severely by the escaped dragons in Elsywer, is awaiting his arrival also. Aurik is a soldier of the Daggerfall Covenant that was introduced to necromancy while in the military, even though this magicka art is not spoken of openly by most of the Military leaders. He came to Alik'r and worked with the Withered Hand before Ras Kalik intervened on their plans. After the defeat of the Withered Hand, he aligned with the Worm Cult, and is constantly adapting and perfecting his necromantic arts.

    After his journey to Rimmen, Kalik heads south to Senchal, in the southern regions of Elyswer. This new adventure will also put him on a path to meet a strange Redguard man. The stranger which was infected with an untreated Peyrite disease and also was the exiled from the Order of the New Moon cult, due to his sickness. He originally joined the cult to worship Laatvulon, the green dragon, mistakenly thinking it was the Daedric prince Peyrite. This confused and suffering cultist is known as Tsar al-Bomba and he is on a path to spread the disease. He was originally infected in Orccrest while recruiting members there. Can Ras Kalik and the shaman Cacique cure this poor soul, only time will tell. Little does Tsar al-Bomba know, that his infection is tied to Vampirism, and eventually the desire for blood will take over his mind. Senchal also offers Kalik his latest love interest... Aeliah. Whom he fondly led thru battles with the Dragonguard.

    After the trek thru the heat, tropical and desert climate of Northern and Southern Elyswer, Ras Kalik heads north to the cold mountain range of Skyrim. His companion friend Lyris beckons for him with a letter sent by crow...

    Movárth Piquine - a former vampire hunter (now infected), within the Fighter's Guild (and a secretive necromancer) was in Skyrim working with the Morthaal Guard. On a patrol mission he was caught in Frewien's ice curse outside of Morthaal with the frozen undead. Movárth's vampiric infection kept him from becoming an undead minion to the curse. He was able to use necromantic ice-magic to encase himself safely until he was freed with Freiwen, when the Vestige Ras Kalik broke the curse.

    Uri Ice-Heart - brother of Urfon Ice-Heart. The twin sons of Atli and Oljourn Ice-Heart. The Ice-Heart family are originally from Markarth but now reside on the Jerall Mountain range near Cyrodiil, with their younger sister Araki. The twins had joined the Winterborn Reachmen while living in Markarth. Urfon pushed west to Orsinium with the Winterborn Clan, leaving his family behind. Uri stayed behind with his parents and sister to live in the family cabin for safety, avoiding the Vampire plague infiltrating the Reach. After news reaches him and he hears of Urfon's death... Uri leaves and heads home and is seeking vengeance. Meanwhile, his sister has also moved on to Windhelm to join the Fighter's guild. He will visit his sister, once before going to seek vengeance and she will craft him armor mixed with ice, called Stalhrim armor. Uri fearing death, after his brother's passing, falls victim to the convincing talk of Movárth at a Nordic tavern, and will also becomes a vampire.

    {time moves forward through the hour-glass}
    PS5/NA - Ras Kalik a Redguard Templar - Daggerfall Covenant • 1550+ Champion

  • Shantu
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    About 5 years into ESO and I have never bought a single Crown Crate. Never have, never will. Personally I abhor the whole RNG gimmick so interwoven into just about everything players may desire to have. The randomness of rewards for your time and effort is utter BS. It's like working a job for a random amount of money on your paycheck. I'll gladly invest whatever effort is necessary to achieve something I desire, but running content a few hundred times and STILL not achieving the reward really gets under my skin.
  • Starlock
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    Brrrofski wrote: »
    Jaimeh wrote: »
    All these posts about endeavours... Endeavours are a good addition to the game, though it was probably brought about by legal concerns rather than compaany goodwill, but you know, they could just put some mounts in the store for direct purchase... like they used to do before crates. Why go on some roundabout way: money->crowns->crates->gems (or game gold->gifted crates->gems), or not have the option at all when wanting to avoid crates altogether, to have a cool mount in-game? They definitely should add more things for direct purchase to the store... having crates, and gem-exclusive things is just a price inflation hidden behind currencies. Think about it: polymorphs were never sold more than 2k crowns, if the new poly gets sold for 200 gems, could you get 200 gems from 2k crates (unless relying on rare RNG that gives duplicate apex mounts or a sweetroll)? It's a rotten system, and players SHOULD ask for more direct purchase items in the store.

    Endeavors for sure aren't goodwill.

    My guess is that they're trying to get people who don't buy crates to buy crates.

    People 100% will start earning them, realise they want something and probably buy crates to finish off the amount of gems.

    Yes. It's the same tactic Fallout 76 pulled with their seasons system. In many ways it is worse, because the endeavors system links up to a gambling system instead of just allowing players to earn cash shop currency or other rewards more generally. If endeavors was a way to earn cash shop currency more generally, it could be a massive win for customer-friendly monetization.

    Sadly that isn't what we're getting. We're getting a skinner box that links into a game's gambling system that will expose more people to the potential risk of overspending or gambling addiction. I can't even be surprised about it at this point, but it'd be nice to see something in the direction of ethical monetization for once. I can forgive a GaaS for being chock full of skinner boxes (see here for a short video about what this is) to some extent - it's simply the nature of the beast - but marrying that to monetization systems, especially gambling? It's gross, to put it kindly.

    Two ways ZoS can (but won't) fix this system before it launches:
    1. Keep the system largely as it is, but remove gambling crates entirely. All crate rewards can be earned solely through the new endeavors system.
    2. Keep the system largely as is, but make crowns the earned currency instead. Combine with number one for a double pro-customer, ethical monetization win.
  • Goregrinder
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    MrDenimChicken wrote: »
    So back to the main question. Can we get some cooler freaking mounts that DONT REQUIRE GAMBLING?

    Most of the mounts I've gotten are purchased using Gems. I just buy enough crates, and extract gems from the looted items I don't want until I have 400 gems. It's usually about 16 or 17 crates. Then I buy it.
  • Fischblut
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    God forbid do some cooler mount options available through in game activity.

    Actually, Sunspire Ice-Fire Senche looks rather cool and shiny, and can technically be earned by simply playing the game.
    Then in Blackwood there will be another very cool-looking mount that can be earned from trial achievements.

    QTtRS1l.jpg
    All people want is an actual price for what they want. Even if it's £100 for a mount, people just want to know that if they spend that much, they'll get it.

    No, people totally don't want mounts for 100$...

    I would be curious to see what would happen if there was actually a mount worth 100$ for direct purchase in store :o People would rage about such high price and ask for cheaper mounts.
    Just look at what happened when in current Ayleid crate season we got option to buy 3 rarest mounts for gems - many people were still upset about the price :o
    99% of the people who complain about crown crates complain because there is something in there that they don't want to pay the price for.

    This is so true!

    Before we got Gifting system, I personally couldn't afford many crates. Thus I simply didn't buy them - but I didn't complain about this at all.
    And eventually I started to love crates, when Gifting was introduced to the game. Everyone has option to get crates since then <3

    I earn my mounts by playing the game.

    d4RmyzE.jpg

    If someday some new shiny mounts will be offered as quest rewards, I would also like it.
    But even now, everyone has the option to get beautiful mounts.
    Edited by Fischblut on April 28, 2021 4:31PM
    "Comments in this thread should contain natch potes memes and hype."

    Please, add ability to use all new idle animations on every mount!

    Please, fix the bugged lights! They ruin visuals of environment and mounts.
  • Araneae6537
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    I was always quite frustrated by the stuff I wanted locked in boxes with a lot of stuff I didn’t want but would be stuck with if I got. So I did not buy any crates until, finally, with the Ayleid crates there was a season of mostly stuff I liked and then I got a lot so that I got most of what I wanted plus Gems for what else I might want in the future. I feel it was worth it. Now, if you only ever want mounts or there is never a season in which you like some of the lower tier items, then I agree that it would not be a good system for you. Hopefully we will be able to save up seals from endeavors for mounts and additionally more be offered for Crowns and, better still, in-game.
  • Bradyfjord
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    The moral of the story with ESO crates is to be responsible. If you can't make responsible decisions about your spending, then please seek help.

    1. People have the duty to take care of themselves and their loved ones.
    2. People have the right to decide how to live their own lives.
    3. People need help sometimes when things go wrong.
    4. People need to help those in need, as long as it doesn't violate 1-2.

    Please don't tell me how to spend/waste my entertainment dollars. I enjoy the odd risk. For example, I have a personal investment account (not a lot of money) in addition to a normal retirement account. I enjoy the challenge of researching a company to find a good investment, and then seeing that investment pay off later on. And sometimes I just want to buy some virtual crates and see what items I get.

    How can people be upset at being 'exposed' to risk? I'm glad I am not so cynical to think that humans have no willpower.

    That said, if crates went away I would be okay with it. I would just rather have nice things rather than not.
  • PizzaCat82
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    The last crate pack has had 1 item (aka shiny sweet roll) locked entirely behind gambling.

    The conversion rate to gems is bad, horribly bad, but even radiant apex can be purchased through crowns once you get an idea of what the rate is.

    So I get between 100-200 gems each pack of 15, The best Radiant costs 2500 gems. So I would need 25 packs of crown crates to get that mount.

    5000 crowns per 150 gems comes out to about to 84k crowns.
  • WhyMustItBe
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    ThorianB wrote: »
    They are only gambling in the broadest strech of the definition. But they are in the same category of gambling , as it was pointed out, as trading cards,"toy in a plastic bubble", and similar methods in which every "play" bought always gives a prize.

    Nope, wrong. This is the apples and oranges argument that ZOS made in court, but it is a flawed premise and the legal system in various countries is beginning to evolve and adapt their vocabulary to account for this.

    In order for them to be as you describe, the "guaranteed prize" you mention would have to be guaranteed to be of value TO THE GAMBLER. Obviously this is NOT the case.

    This argument is like saying spending real money on poker chips in a Las Vegas casino and sitting down to play blackjack isn't gambling if the dealer gives you a lollipop or a bag of pretzels every time you lose. The "prize" has nothing to do with what you were gambling for, has no value in terms of your reason for gambling, and this specious attempt companies make to defend such practices by wrongly comparing them to things like this which they are clearly not is beyond dishonest. It is corrupt.

    ThorianB wrote: »
    One of the biggest arguments needed for gambling is that the prize as to have some real world value.

    This may be true. But the rest of your argument fails to prove this applies to gamble crates.

    Gambling crates DO have real world value. Any time you are exchanging REAL MONEY for goods and services, that service has real world value. It does NOT need to have RESALE value in order to have real world value. That, I think, is your misinterpretation of gambling laws.

    Because mounts and cosmetics are highly sought and customers regularly spend significant real money to acquire them, putting them behind digital gambling and then saying it is OK because they have no real value is once again, totally dishonest sophistry typically used by the gaming industry in court to confuse prosecutors into passing the buck or putting off enforcement or updating of outdated decades-old laws to address the issue properly.

    ThorianB wrote: »
    Lastly, there is nothing wrong with gambling.

    Subjective, but in a general sense also wrong. Gambling creates ADDICTION. There is absolutely something wrong with addiction. Gambling addiction is recognized as a real disease. You can look it up, whether you agree with it or not.

    You segue into a "lots of people are doing it so it must be OK" argument which is not really strong enough to counter. What I will say however, is that there is a reason gambling is heavily regulated and requires you to be over 18, and that is directly related to the nature of addiction and why this idea of "winning big" is so addicting.

    Gaming companies know this, and tailor their entire marketing around what is most likely to generate addiction. That is known as PREDATORY MARKETING. Whether you personally think gambling is OK because you can stop yourself from becoming addicted and letting it ruin your life is irrelevant here.

    Laws exist to protect people from harm, and predatory marketing like this absolutely does harm. It is certainly not something we want hammered into the minds of impressionable young people in a cartoony video game setting.
  • Bradyfjord
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    Gambling does not create addictions. However people have been documented as being addicted to gambling.
    Addicts need help for sure. I'm not sure we're going to solve an addictive person's problems by taking away something others enjoy.
  • WhyMustItBe
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    Bradyfjord wrote: »
    Gambling does not create addictions. However people have been documented as being addicted to gambling.
    Addicts need help for sure. I'm not sure we're going to solve an addictive person's problems by taking away something others enjoy.

    Again, it doesn't matter if you personally feel it is acceptable. Laws exist to protect people from harm.

    Gambling laws require you to be 18 or older. The game is a cartoony entertainment genre marketed to 17+ year olds.

    It would be easier to make believe there was no problem with that equation just because it doesn't affect us personally.

    But allowing billion dollar companies to prey on young people with predatory marketing tactics IS objectively wrong.
  • Bradyfjord
    Bradyfjord
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    WhyMustItBe wrote: »
    Bradyfjord wrote: »
    Gambling does not create addictions. However people have been documented as being addicted to gambling.
    Addicts need help for sure. I'm not sure we're going to solve an addictive person's problems by taking away something others enjoy.

    Again, it doesn't matter if you personally feel it is acceptable. Laws exist to protect people from harm.

    Gambling laws require you to be 18 or older. The game is a cartoony entertainment genre marketed to 17+ year olds.

    It would be easier to make believe there was no problem with that equation just because it doesn't affect us personally.

    But allowing billion dollar companies to prey on young people with predatory marketing tactics IS objectively wrong.

    Sadly, it is true. All you have to do is prove that your feelings are hurt now, and that is considered harm. People and companies are held liable for this kind of invisible damage, even with no intent present. Truly unfortunate.
  • Starlock
    Starlock
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    Bradyfjord wrote: »
    Gambling does not create addictions. However people have been documented as being addicted to gambling.
    Addicts need help for sure. I'm not sure we're going to solve an addictive person's problems by taking away something others enjoy.

    Hmm... yes and no. The situation is complicated and beyond the scope of what can be discussed here.

    It suffices to say that if you study a bit about human psychology, all humans are more or less susceptible to behavioral conditioning (aka, the skinner box) which is a starting point for addictions. The risk of developing a full-blown addiction is then reduced or amplified by various other factors. Gambling is a regulated activity in large part because it is designed in a way to amplify risks and is more likely to cause folks problems. Unfortunately, the video games industry has sidestepped these regulations.

    Just as customers must take responsibility to educate themselves about the products they buy and the purchasing decisions they make, companies creating products must take responsibility for the way they produce, distribute, and market their products. Various laws then help regulate both sides of the customer-producer relationship to prevent bad actors from getting out of control. Prohibiting sale of a product isn't usually the solution - regulation is. Precisely because the goal is not to take something away that others enjoy, but to put in place commonsense protections to prevent or deter abuses.

    If gambling systems are not appropriately regulated - which is the present status of them in video gaming in most countries - they shouldn't be present, period. If they are appropriately regulated like every other form of gambling is? Sure, have at it. Not personally a fan, but have at it.
  • Kiralyn2000
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    WhyMustItBe wrote: »
    ThorianB wrote: »
    One of the biggest arguments needed for gambling is that the prize as to have some real world value.

    This may be true. But the rest of your argument fails to prove this applies to gamble crates.

    Gambling crates DO have real world value. Any time you are exchanging REAL MONEY for goods and services, that service has real world value. It does NOT need to have RESALE value in order to have real world value. That, I think, is your misinterpretation of gambling laws.

    Because mounts and cosmetics are highly sought and customers regularly spend significant real money to acquire them, putting them behind digital gambling and then saying it is OK because they have no real value is once again

    Just to note - they've made similar arguments in other places. When they've had the various "all the houses"/"all the mounts"/etc Sweepstakes in the past, the full listing of rules & prizes that has to be published? All the digital prizes have been listed as being worth $0.
  • Bradyfjord
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    I have to agree with you there, @Starlock
    Both consumers and businesses should take responsibility where appropriate. I may have made it sound like I don't think ZOS should change. I think whatever is in a loot crate should be available for crowns, even if it is very high priced.
  • kargen27
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    VoidCommander wrote: »
    kargen27 wrote: »
    Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase them knowing you will get four random items And sometimes a bonus item maybe. Same way baseball cards work. Same way those machines by the bubblegum machines work.

    All for another way to get cool mounts but crown crates simply are not gambling.

    Difference being that baseball cards can be resold and therefore have a value. Crown crate items cannot be gifted or resold. Hell, only the worthless consumables and furnishing can even be converted to gems. It would be very different if you could sell the cosmetics you earned for their EQUAL gem value so I don’t have to have 13,462 body markings but instead have a dozen apex mounts.

    This proves the point more that the crates are not gambling.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • ThorianB
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    WhyMustItBe wrote: »
    Nope, wrong. This is the apples and oranges argument that ZOS made in court, but it is a flawed premise and the legal system in various countries is beginning to evolve and adapt their vocabulary to account for this.

    In order for them to be as you describe, the "guaranteed prize" you mention would have to be guaranteed to be of value TO THE GAMBLER. Obviously this is NOT the case.

    This argument is like saying spending real money on poker chips in a Las Vegas casino and sitting down to play blackjack isn't gambling if the dealer gives you a lollipop or a bag of pretzels every time you lose. The "prize" has nothing to do with what you were gambling for, has no value in terms of your reason for gambling, and this specious attempt companies make to defend such practices by wrongly comparing them to things like this which they are clearly not is beyond dishonest. It is corrupt.

    Gambling requires three elements to be present: consideration (an amount wagered), risk (chance), and a prize.
    1. Consideration is the bet or wager amount. You are not wagering anything. Your are paying X price for Y items. You aren't paying for a chance to win a prize.
    2. Risk means there is some risk involved in the wager. There is no risk in crown crates. You are guaranteed four items every single time you open a crate. You "win" 100% of the time. Its not gambling if you never "lose"as there is no risk of losing.
    3. Prize to be considered a prize it either has to be an award/reward or something you win in a competition. Since you "always win" with crates this isn't any different than an item exchange( crowns for crown crates for items in those crates). Its no different than the undaunted chest. You are always going to get an item. It may not be the item you wanted but that doesn't make it gambling.
    Furthermore, just because some countries have leaders who heavily regulate something doesn't mean squat. All that is shifting political tides. Just because country X does something doesn't mean its a good idea or right.

    We can't go by the value to the gambler because:
    1. For there to be a gambler, there must be gambling.
    2. As i pointed out crown crates don't satisfy the actual definition of gambling in a multitude of ways.
    3. But most importantly, value can not be something that is subjective. Because subjective value cannot have a standard. I could say this item is worth 8 million red crayons and you could say its only worth 500 packs of Ramen noodles. There is no standard there so perceived value means squat. That is why something must have a real world value in a standardize currency in which it could be reasonably sold to others. THAT is what gives it value. Being able to sell it to another person in exchanged for a standardized real currency is what gives something value. Nothing in this game has a real world value. It has no material value. I can't sell my cave bear mount and go buy lunch with it. I can't trade my psijic villa in on a car. Perceived value means squat legally because it is far to subjective.

    Your Vegas analogy isn't even close to the same one i was making. Your Vegas example( snacks for losing) is a consolation prize and in none of my examples is the items you acquire considered by a sane and reasonable adult to be a consolation prize. This actually brings me back to the perceived value argument.

    Crate items have a perceived value based on the person and that value doesn't always following the rarity order. I know several people that would rather have costumes and dyes and adornments and things of that nature than a radiant apex mount. I know a few people who refuse to ride any mount other than a plain horse( like TES 4) because they think it breaks lore.
    Gambling crates DO have real world value. Any time you are exchanging REAL MONEY for goods and services, that service has real world value. It does NOT need to have RESALE value in order to have real world value. That, I think, is your misinterpretation of gambling laws.
    1. The prize has to have real world value, not what you paid for a chance at that prize. That prize has to be something that you could sell to another person in the real world for a standardized legal currency.
    2. You don't have to purchase crown crates with real money, you can purchase them with gold which is fake virtual money earned by doing things in game. I could buy 10,000 crown crates and not spend a single dollar.
    3. As i stated, there has to be a chance you will lose. There is no chance of losing in a crown crate.
    Subjective, but in a general sense also wrong.
    If what i said is opinion( subjective) then it can't be wrong. It is an opinion, not a fact.
    Gambling creates ADDICTION.
    This is a misconception stated as fact. Gambling doesn't create addiction. Addiction is a mental health disorder. It is caused by brain chemistry, genetics, environment( AKA peer pressure, close family/friends that have that addiction). Being in the presence of a "vice" or some other addictive situation does not affect normal healthy people.

    For example, I can walk in a casino with $1000 in cash, more than $100k in credit cards/debit card access) and decide i am going to spend $200. I will play until i have i spent $200 or i get bored and leave. That is a normal and healthy reaction. I can eat in a restaurant with a full bar and great wine selection and have 1 glass of wine with my meal and be able to drive home without temptation to drink more than i should. If my wife was driving or we took an uber, i would drink as much as i felt like. This is a normal and healthy reaction. When i was a kid, my dad smoked 3 packs a day. My brothers, who are all quite a bit older, also started smoking multiple packs a day as they hit teens( and they still smoke decades later). In high school many of my friends smoked. After high school many of my friends and my co workers smoked. I also smoked because of influence in my social circles. I stopped smoking 25 years later and have not had a cigarette in nearly 3 years. A big factor is that i now have all non smokers in my social circle and i rarely see my brothers who still smoke. I could never have quit( i tried a few times) with smokers in my social circle. That is how an environmental addiction was created and removed. I removed myself from the addictive environment until i could control my addiction. I didn't demand the whole planet ban cigarettes because i was addicted to them.

    Gambling is less addictive than many other activities most of which are far more harmful to the addict or others than gambling is. 0.9% of adults in the US are addicted to gambling. Lets look at some other addictions...
    • ~5% of gamers have compulsive addiction to video games.
    • ~6% of people are addicted to television
    • ~10% of people have illicit drug use disorders( addiction)
    • ~13% of current American adults meet the criteria for alcohol addiction.
    • ~14% of current American adults are addicted to cigarettes.
    • ~ 28% have a caffeine addiction.
    I could keep going but gambling is the least addictive of pretty much anything you can get addicted to.
    You segue into a "lots of people are doing it so it must be OK" argument which is not really strong enough to counter.
    The point you clearly missed is not only are we constantly exposed( at least in the US) to situations in which we could gamble but more than half of the population has gambled at least once in the last year yet the addiction rate is not even 1% which is the lowest addiction rate of anything considered a vice.
    [ What I will say however, is that there is a reason gambling is heavily regulated and requires you to be over 18, and that is directly related to the nature of addiction and why this idea of "winning big" is so addicting.
    No... no, it's not. It's related to needing to be of an age in which you are ( probably) mature enough to handle being responsible with gambling and have some degree of reasonable decision making. There are many things that are limited to being an adult that have zero to do with addiction. You are just randomly connecting two unrelated points and claiming it as fact.
    Gaming companies know this, and tailor their entire marketing around what is most likely to generate addiction
    That isn't true. The only developers that prey on gamers are P2W developers and they prey on competitiveness not a gambling addiction. Marketing is designed to sell products. Addiction comes from within not from a game company trying to make a profit.
    That is known as PREDATORY MARKETING.
    Predatory Marketing is literally something you just made up or got from someone who made it up. There is no such thing as predatory marketing. That might have been some sensationalized buzzword you read in a headline or seen on the news that was used just to grab your attention but it actually doesn't exist. It's not a thing.
    Whether you personally think gambling is OK because you can stop yourself from becoming addicted and letting it ruin your life is irrelevant here.
    Actually it is extremely relevant as i am a voter and also in the majority opinion ( 70% of Americans, of which i am one, think that gambling is acceptable). Again this is where personal responsibility comes in. We have help available for addicts of anything. It's not my responsibility to make sure someone else that i don't even know and never have met doesn't get addicted to X, Y, or Z. Nor should i lose my rights and access to those because others have addiction problems.
    It is certainly not something we want hammered into the minds of impressionable young people in a cartoony video game setting.
    This statement is insulting to young people because there are tens of millions of them that can legally:
    • Work at job.
    • Drive a car.
    • Drink Alcohol.
    • Smoke Cigarettes
    • Give sexual consent.
    Before they are "old enough" to play this game. By time a person reaches 17/18, they should already be making adult decisions on the daily basis.
    Edited by ThorianB on April 29, 2021 5:20AM
  • XvarleyX
    XvarleyX
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    ThorianB wrote: »
    WhyMustItBe wrote: »
    Nope, wrong. This is the apples and oranges argument that ZOS made in court, but it is a flawed premise and the legal system in various countries is beginning to evolve and adapt their vocabulary to account for this.

    In order for them to be as you describe, the "guaranteed prize" you mention would have to be guaranteed to be of value TO THE GAMBLER. Obviously this is NOT the case.

    This argument is like saying spending real money on poker chips in a Las Vegas casino and sitting down to play blackjack isn't gambling if the dealer gives you a lollipop or a bag of pretzels every time you lose. The "prize" has nothing to do with what you were gambling for, has no value in terms of your reason for gambling, and this specious attempt companies make to defend such practices by wrongly comparing them to things like this which they are clearly not is beyond dishonest. It is corrupt.

    Gambling requires three elements to be present: consideration (an amount wagered), risk (chance), and a prize.
    1. Consideration is the bet or wager amount. You are not wagering anything. Your are paying X price for Y items. You aren't paying for a chance to win a prize.
    2. Risk means there is some risk involved in the wager. There is no risk in crown crates. You are guaranteed four items every single time you open a crate. You "win" 100% of the time. Its not gambling if you never "lose"as there is no risk of losing.
    3. Prize to be considered a prize it either has to be an award/reward or something you win in a competition. Since you "always win" with crates this isn't any different than an item exchange( crowns for crown crates for items in those crates). Its no different than the undaunted chest. You are always going to get an item. It may not be the item you wanted but that doesn't make it gambling.
    Furthermore, just because some countries have leaders who heavily regulate something doesn't mean squat. All that is shifting political tides. Just because country X does something doesn't mean its a good idea or right.

    We can't go by the value to the gambler because:
    1. For there to be a gambler, there must be gambling.
    2. As i pointed out crown crates don't satisfy the actual definition of gambling in a multitude of ways.
    3. But most importantly, value can not be something that is subjective. Because subjective value cannot have a standard. I could say this item is worth 8 million red crayons and you could say its only worth 500 packs of Ramen noodles. There is no standard there so perceived value means squat. That is why something must have a real world value in a standardize currency in which it could be reasonably sold to others. THAT is what gives it value. Being able to sell it to another person in exchanged for a standardized real currency is what gives something value. Nothing in this game has a real world value. It has no material value. I can't sell my cave bear mount and go buy lunch with it. I can't trade my psijic villa in on a car. Perceived value means squat legally because it is far to subjective.

    Your Vegas analogy isn't even close to the same one i was making. Your Vegas example( snacks for losing) is a consolation prize and in none of my examples is the items you acquire considered by a sane and reasonable adult to be a consolation prize. This actually brings me back to the perceived value argument.

    Crate items have a perceived value based on the person and that value doesn't always following the rarity order. I know several people that would rather have costumes and dyes and adornments and things of that nature than a radiant apex mount. I know a few people who refuse to ride any mount other than a plain horse( like TES 4) because they think it breaks lore.
    Gambling crates DO have real world value. Any time you are exchanging REAL MONEY for goods and services, that service has real world value. It does NOT need to have RESALE value in order to have real world value. That, I think, is your misinterpretation of gambling laws.
    1. The prize has to have real world value, not what you paid for a chance at that prize. That prize has to be something that you could sell to another person in the real world for a standardized legal currency.
    2. You don't have to purchase crown crates with real money, you can purchase them with gold which is fake virtual money earned by doing things in game. I could buy 10,000 crown crates and not spend a single dollar.
    3. As i stated, there has to be a chance you will lose. There is no chance of losing in a crown crate.
    Subjective, but in a general sense also wrong.
    If what i said is opinion( subjective) then it can't be wrong. It is an opinion, not a fact.
    Gambling creates ADDICTION.
    This is a misconception stated as fact. Gambling doesn't create addiction. Addiction is a mental health disorder. It is caused by brain chemistry, genetics, environment( AKA peer pressure, close family/friends that have that addiction). Being in the presence of a "vice" or some other addictive situation does not affect normal healthy people.

    For example, I can walk in a casino with $1000 in cash, more than $100k in credit cards/debit card access) and decide i am going to spend $200. I will play until i have i spent $200 or i get bored and leave. That is a normal and healthy reaction. I can eat in a restaurant with a full bar and great wine selection and have 1 glass of wine with my meal and be able to drive home without temptation to drink more than i should. If my wife was driving or we took an uber, i would drink as much as i felt like. This is a normal and healthy reaction. When i was a kid, my dad smoked 3 packs a day. My brothers, who are all quite a bit older, also started smoking multiple packs a day as they hit teens( and they still smoke decades later). In high school many of my friends smoked. After high school many of my friends and my co workers smoked. I also smoked because of influence in my social circles. I stopped smoking 25 years later and have not had a cigarette in nearly 3 years. A big factor is that i now have all non smokers in my social circle and i rarely see my brothers who still smoke. I could never have quit( i tried a few times) with smokers in my social circle. That is how an environmental addiction was created and removed. I removed myself from the addictive environment until i could control my addiction. I didn't demand the whole planet ban cigarettes because i was addicted to them.

    Gambling is less addictive than many other activities most of which are far more harmful to the addict or others than gambling is. 0.9% of adults in the US are addicted to gambling. Lets look at some other addictions...
    • ~5% of gamers have compulsive addiction to video games.
    • ~6% of people are addicted to television
    • ~10% of people have illicit drug use disorders( addiction)
    • ~13% of current American adults meet the criteria for alcohol addiction.
    • ~14% of current American adults are addicted to cigarettes.
    • ~ 28% have a caffeine addiction.
    I could keep going but gambling is the least addictive of pretty much anything you can get addicted to.
    You segue into a "lots of people are doing it so it must be OK" argument which is not really strong enough to counter.
    The point you clearly missed is not only are we constantly exposed( at least in the US) to situations in which we could gamble but more than half of the population has gambled at least once in the last year yet the addiction rate is not even 1% which is the lowest addiction rate of anything considered a vice.
    [ What I will say however, is that there is a reason gambling is heavily regulated and requires you to be over 18, and that is directly related to the nature of addiction and why this idea of "winning big" is so addicting.
    No... no, it's not. It's related to needing to be of an age in which you are ( probably) mature enough to handle being responsible with gambling and have some degree of reasonable decision making. There are many things that are limited to being an adult that have zero to do with addiction. You are just randomly connecting two unrelated points and claiming it as fact.
    Gaming companies know this, and tailor their entire marketing around what is most likely to generate addiction
    That isn't true. The only developers that prey on gamers are P2W developers and they prey on competitiveness not a gambling addiction. Marketing is designed to sell products. Addiction comes from within not from a game company trying to make a profit.
    That is known as PREDATORY MARKETING.
    Predatory Marketing is literally something you just made up or got from someone who made it up. There is no such thing as predatory marketing. That might have been some sensationalized buzzword you read in a headline or seen on the news that was used just to grab your attention but it actually doesn't exist. It's not a thing.
    Whether you personally think gambling is OK because you can stop yourself from becoming addicted and letting it ruin your life is irrelevant here.
    Actually it is extremely relevant as i am a voter and also in the majority opinion ( 70% of Americans, of which i am one, think that gambling is acceptable). Again this is where personal responsibility comes in. We have help available for addicts of anything. It's not my responsibility to make sure someone else that i don't even know and never have met doesn't get addicted to X, Y, or Z. Nor should i lose my rights and access to those because others have addiction problems.
    It is certainly not something we want hammered into the minds of impressionable young people in a cartoony video game setting.
    This statement is insulting to young people because there are tens of millions of them that can legally:
    • Work at job.
    • Drive a car.
    • Drink Alcohol.
    • Smoke Cigarettes
    • Give sexual consent.
    Before they are "old enough" to play this game. By time a person reaches 17/18, they should already be making adult decisions on the daily basis.

    boring, did not read.
  • Brrrofski
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    So why are people ok with loot boxes?

    Why do you guys who are in favour prefer them over being able to directly buy an item you want?

    I'm not against cosmetic micro transactions.

    It's just crazy to me that you're ok with spending money on having a small chance to get what you want rather than being able to just choose what you buy.
    Edited by Brrrofski on April 29, 2021 7:47AM
  • ThorianB
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    Brrrofski wrote: »
    So why are people ok with loot boxes?

    Why do you guys who are in favour prefer them over being able to directly buy an item you want?

    I'm not against cosmetic micro transactions.

    It's just crazy to me that you're ok with spending money on having a small chance to get what you want rather than being able to just choose what you buy.

    Because i dont require everything in my life to be straight forward. I have always enjoyed opening loot boxes and treasure chests and what not. Anniversary Event is my favorite event in ESO because for the first couple hundred boxes its fun to see what i get. I use to play a browser based game called Dragon's of Atlantis just because of the chest chains that you got.

    In the game Valheim, I find cutting down trees to be relaxing and satisfying. I don't know why it is, but it is. Loot boxes give me that same contentment but more so( depending on the quality of loot box). Crown crates arent as satisfying because i already know all the rewards. Taking the mystery out ruins part of the fun and the quality of items in ESO crates isn't that great. ZOS has a really bad habit of reskinning the same mount 200 times and trying to sell it to me over and over. Put more effort into a "new mount" than spinning the color wheel.

    But i digress.I like the mystery and contentment that opening loot boxes brings. People ruin them by not letting them just be loot boxes. Not everything on earth needs to be within your( general use) reach and directly purchasable. Its ok if some items are exclusive and have some mystery to them.
  • JimT722
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    Loot boxes are designed to use the same psychological triggers as slot machines. Legally they aren't considered gambling because they can't be exchanged for monetary value. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered gambling. Especially when they require money to open and can lead to gambling addiction as it has been shown to do.

    I don't think anyone would care if these crates were only obtainable by gameplay. They are proven to be profitable because people will keep spending money opening these hoping to get the rarest rewards. That is why so many companies put these in their games.
    Edited by JimT722 on April 29, 2021 9:26AM
  • etchedpixels
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    kargen27 wrote: »
    Crown crates are not gambling. You purchase them knowing you will get four random items And sometimes a bonus item maybe. Same way baseball cards work. Same way those machines by the bubblegum machines work.

    All for another way to get cool mounts but crown crates simply are not gambling.

    And all of them are gambling. That's pretty much the definition of a zero skill gambling game.

    IMHO that's a side issue though: ESO had it right when they put a mount in a sunspire achievement. They just failed to follow up with some easier lesser ones in other achievement lines or putting any in the PVP space - like say a giant rat in telvar + achievements in IC, and a war mount for reaching some meaningful rank in Cyrodiil.

    Too many toons not enough time
  • etchedpixels
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    Bradyfjord wrote: »
    The moral of the story with ESO crates is to be responsible. If you can't make responsible decisions about your spending, then please seek help.

    The way this works in most countries is that gambling is regulated - even in the USA it's heavily regulated. There are a combination of rules around age limits, value limits, spend limits. In many of them it's also a requirement that gambling is paid for showing real cash values and that payments are classified as gambling when they clear the card payment.

    ESO on the other hand hides it behind crowns, bills it not as gambling and uses fluffy cat people telling you that you seem to have a lucky aura to draw folks in. Note btw - I can't see any lucky aura in the crown crate percentage disclosures so I suspect you don't in fact have a lucky aura - just deceit.

    At the very least it needs to be paid for in real money at the time with actual cash values, and billed to the card clearer as gamblng so that people can stop, and the filters used (or sometimes imposed) on people with gambling problems work.

    Too many toons not enough time
  • Riptide
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    Brrrofski wrote: »
    I don't know why people defend crates so badly.

    All people want is an actual price for what they want. Even if it's £100 for a mount, people just want to know that if they spend that much, they'll get it.

    You know I think 100 (pounds or dollars) would be about right as far as what wouldn’t get a company bad PR.

    But these latest apex radiant are quite a lot more expensive than 100. I’d have to get out a pencil and it of course be an approximation, but the fanciest one closer to 1,000.

    When I see one out in the wild I feel sorry for the owner. They are not the status symbol they think they are, but the scars of victimization :neutral:
    Esse quam videri.
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    Brrrofski wrote: »
    Endeavors for sure aren't goodwill.

    My guess is that they're trying to get people who don't buy crates to buy crates.

    Nothing so tricky. If I interpret this correctly, they are being forced to do this, against their will, kicking and screaming and having all manner of tantrums. :smile: It will be interesting to see what the "revenge cost" will be, if there is one. This is how they exploit the system in an attempt to thwart what they were forced to do. The manner and scope of this "revenge" is the telling part of how willing or unwilling they were.
    Shantu wrote: »
    About 5 years into ESO and I have never bought a single Crown Crate. Never have, never will.

    I have not purchased a Crown Crate, either. I will one up your statement and say that, outside of the initial testing on PTS when they were introduced, I have never **opened** a Crown Crate. Not even the free ones I collect like candy from Twitch streams. I literally have hundreds of them. I stopped counting at 300.

    ESO Plus: No
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • Kiralyn2000
    Kiralyn2000
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    Shantu wrote: »
    About 5 years into ESO and I have never bought a single Crown Crate. Never have, never will.

    I have not purchased a Crown Crate, either. I will one up your statement and say that, outside of the initial testing on PTS when they were introduced, I have never **opened** a Crown Crate. Not even the free ones I collect like candy from Twitch streams. I literally have hundreds of them. I stopped counting at 300.

    As I said earlier, I'm perfectly happy to open any free lockboxes that a game gives me. They work wonderfully to show just how bad a purchase they are, and reinforce my desire to never spend $ on them. But I've been able to grab a good number of mid-level costumes/jewelry/etc from the gems I saved up in that first year of free Crown Crates. :#

    (even got a couple mounts. Which I'd rather have been more mid-level rewards. I've never used them, they're ugly.)
  • MrDenimChicken
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    ThorianB wrote: »
    WhyMustItBe wrote: »
    Zenzuki wrote: »
    Note: Bottom left.

    Not to pick nits, but 17 is not legal age to gamble in most countries. In the US you can't even buy lottery tickets.
    It's one year different and mature is the highest audience rating for a game so very much nitpicking.
    MrDenimChicken wrote: »
    Zenzuki wrote: »
    Game isn't marketed to "little kids".

    I'm pretty sure the juvenile jokes in the majority of main zone quest lines show the game clearly isn't some super rated R game for adults. On the contrary, it's designed for mass appeal, including kiddos.

    1. The game is rated mature and requires age verification. Many of the people you think are children are just immature adults. The actual children are likely here with parent's approval. That is on the parent's not everyone else( see #4)
    2. You can buy crown crates with gold and you can buy any item in a crown crate with gems, so NOT gambling in any sense of the word.
    3. When blackwood drops you will be able to earn seals of endeavor which can be used like crown gems. So you can do quests and what not to earn a currency you can spend on crate items, so still not gambling.
    4. Personal Responsibility and Impulse Control are two traits that every adult needs to learn in their life to be a functioning human. Asking a majority, who can control themselves, to give up something because a minority cannot is a very unreasonable ask.
    [snip]

    [snip]. You are seriously trying to defend gambling crates that make people spend hundreds of freaking dollars for a video game flamey horse? wow. And then you go on the offensive and say that I'm trying to work some angle? unbelievable. No man, I just think crown crates are unethical, and I won't partake in that system. I don't leave my money to freaking chance. I like to know what I'm actually buying.

    Now I'm glad the endeavor system is coming out. That actually answers my original question, and I'm happy to hear it.

    [Edit for Rude/Insulting Comment.
    Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 2, 2021 4:23PM
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