Changes are amazing!
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Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thank you zos for the changes you guys are currently implementing! I hope they go live! No this isn't sarcasm, but this is the best way to change the proc meta.
To allow players to double the damage of procs? Interesting.
Which proc sets are you going to be trying to get more kills with?1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭doesurmindglow wrote: »It's not up for debate what their position on this is, not really. It's clearly stated in their post: "These sets are seen as “free” sources of damage, healing and survivability, all of which come with minimal tradeoffs. We want these proc choices to mean something, rather than just the de facto method of building a character without paying for it in some way."
How can it be free? I paid good money to be able to farm my proc sets!
Free the damage!!!
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stefj68✭✭✭✭✭You guys should know by now, its going lives... they are working right now on q3/q4 ... so don't expect a change before that.
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Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You guys should know by now, its going lives... they are working right now on q3/q4 ... so don't expect a change before that.
Yeah, that whole "We kept our aggressive development schedule that, in hindsight, might not have been the right strategy" was forgotten about with a quickness. Maybe 2021 will be the "Year of Massive Changes as Fast As We Can Crank 'Em Out and Hope They Work."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/556720/official-discussion-thread-for-studio-director-s-letter-2020-retrospective/p16 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Health based tank shouldnt do damage at all.
I disagree with the "at all" part. When you create a new character, that character has a certain amount of max health, health regen, max mag, mag regen, max stam, and stam regen, without having acquired and distributed any APs yet. You want new characters to do 0 damage because they haven't put any points into stam yet? I assume you weren't being literal, but as it was worded your comment seems to imply that 0 stam points should equal 0 damage, which is absurd. "Shouldn't do very much damage" would have been better wording, although IMO being extremely healthy shouldn't necessarily mean that a character is unable to do any appreciable stam- or mag-based damage.Any game a tank does more damage than a damage dealer is just broken and not worth playing.
Uh, doesn't that depend on the builds? It would be much more reasonable to say that a DD build that can't do more damage than a tank is a terrible DD build.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!0 -
MarioMario✭✭✭Thank you zos for the changes you guys are currently implementing! I hope they go live! No this isn't sarcasm, but this is the best way to change the proc meta.
[snip]
37k altmalexia tooltip, 20k vateshran, 27k crimson... this is what I've experiment ok pts.
And in group play it's worst than ever, cause you can buff minor/major courage, powerful assault, horn... that 20k vate becomes 25k, that 37k altmalexia becomes 40k...
Hybrids will be nerfed, wearing 3 proc set will be not so viable (health builds make exception) but gankers will be hugely buffed.
If I build for purely weapon dmg, I can get a AoE 25k/5 sec dot from Merciless, just investing 2 slot on my gear and 1 skill on my bar.
[edited for baiting]
Edited by ZOS_Lunar on April 28, 2021 12:41PM3 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭People were complaining that there was too many fake tanks in the game, and now ZOS is trying to fix this by making a health or resistance requirement to use gear. Additionally, people were complaining that there wasn't enough tanks in the game and they didn't want to play as a tank since they couldn't solo with one so ZOS added a couple sets for tanks so they can do some DPS without having to pay money to respec.
The result however is completely silly - magicka is now king for everything.
Stamina dps is already underperforming in PvE (PvP is different but don't break PvE for PvP) and they just nerfed penetration by 700.
Stamina healer was never anything but a novelty
Health based tanking aside from the very top end dedicated do nothing else tank (ie even the slightest hybrid) is as of CP 2.0 inferior in any kind of non 100% dedicated role to just shoving 10 in health, eating a sandwich and spamming shields. The CP 2.0 and armour changes created this because
- the armour penalties favour shields over heavy armour (no move penalty, work versus physical and magical damage)
- the resists changes were overdone
- the CP stars for free dodge roll, and shields and cheap dodge rolls when shielding deal with the stamina issues of being magicka based, as does the ability drop most heavy gear.
If you want to be a healer - magicka, if you want to be a dps - magicka (some trial groups won't even accept stamina on guild runs now), if you want to be a non-dedicted tank instead be a magicka dps with shields and a spot of extra health.
Prior to U28 it at least made sense to be a stam/health based tank using gear to switch role.
Yes we might have more "tanks" but actually all that's happened is that anyone with a reasonable CP level can tank normal dungeons as a magicka dd build even in their underwear regardless of their attribute allocations.
Too many toons not enough time2 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jwellsub17_ESO2 wrote: »You either don't play MMORPGs or you have never dealt with people who do. There were people on live who were at 3600CP within a week of FOA being released. There are entire guilds out there right now with top of the line gear. No, it will not take very long to reach those levels when Blackwood goes live.
You want to pull the extreme case out of the hat, this is not the norm for most new players.
How is this relevant to testing on PTS where everyone can be 3600 with the best gear?
Also I have been playing this MMO for 7 years so try again.
Edited by TequilaFire on April 27, 2021 1:47PM2 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Until procs scale the same as abilities, as in, they scale with both your max stat and W/SD, and can crit, they will always be a special kind of “free” damage. The base damage will also require a reduction or else these procs become mandatory on every PvP build because they are like having free abilities. A stat build will never be able to compete as 5-600 W/SD still doesn’t compare to being able to cast an additional ability every few seconds. Which is the effect granted by procs.PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPSpoilerTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »First and foremost: reduce the effectiveness of every single proc set that heals or deals damage by 50%.
Second: set a cap for damage and healing potential that doesn’t change anymore after reaching a specific stat value.
Third: apply scaling that makes sense. If Weapon Damage can easily be 25% than Spell Damage, do not scale both the same way. Make it make sense.
The only problem are proc sets that directly deal damage or heal. Those are the problematic sets. I wish they would just bring back percentage based sets and keep all the others disabled until U31 and they had time for a proc set audit just with these sets. If the changes go live as they are now, U30 will be a worse proc meta than U27-29.
If you cannot do this: let only one damaging or healing proc set activate at a time and keep a 10 second CD between different proc sets active or whatever. Allowing this to go live would be fatal.
As long as those first 2 are filed under Battle Spirit I'd say go for it. It's of no good to make proc sets useless in PvE, neither for diversity nor for closing the floor-ceiling gap.0 -
MrZeDark✭✭✭Thank you zos for the changes you guys are currently implementing! I hope they go live! No this isn't sarcasm, but this is the best way to change the proc meta.
I agree the proc meta needed some attention for scalability options, as it opens up more possible build directions. But the rest of the changes big thumbs down.0 -
jwellsub17_ESO2✭✭✭
Sadly, I am not talking about extreme cases, or pulling anything out of a hat. You are claiming that it would be a very long time to reach those levels on live, and I am pointing out that it took people less than a week to do it. Anytime someone says that it will take a long time to achieve something, that is not time gated, they are being naive.TequilaFire wrote: »
You want to pull the extreme case out of the hat, this is not the norm for most new players.
How is this relevant to testing on PTS where everyone can be 3600 with the best gear?
Also I have been playing this MMO for 7 years so try again.
You are saying it takes top of the line gear, but there are already entire guilds wearing that top of the line gear. That is an unfortunate feature of MMORPGs. Hardcore players will get top of the line gear a quickly as possible, they always do.
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xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
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Casual PvPers are the ones getting screwed the hardest here. They will have zero chance against 45k HP permablock Crimson procdens, zero chance against full burst stat magsorcs/stamblades with 30k HP and 30k armor, and zero chance against nigh immortal ball groups stacking 30k healing procs on top of Earthgore with infinite purge spam and rolling siege bubbles. Minmaxed cheese setups will dominate harder than ever. I have canceled my ESO+ and will not be spending money on this game until they sort this mess out.We must STOP listening to 1vX/gankers, they are the cause of ALL these NERFing threads. There is NOTHING wrong with crimson, high health, high healing, high shielding or ball groups to anyone in the game EXCEPT 1vX/ganker players who can't kill them instantly. 1vX and ganking are the most toxic aspect of PVP and should have never been allowed to exist at such extreme level.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP ground oils8 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IMO, there's simply nothing about this chapter/update that feels amazing. Disappointing on several levels, yes.8 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jwellsub17_ESO2 wrote: »Sadly, I am not talking about extreme cases, or pulling anything out of a hat. You are claiming that it would be a very long time to reach those levels on live, and I am pointing out that it took people less than a week to do it. Anytime someone says that it will take a long time to achieve something, that is not time gated, they are being naive.
You are saying it takes top of the line gear, but there are already entire guilds wearing that top of the line gear. That is an unfortunate feature of MMORPGs. Hardcore players will get top of the line gear a quickly as possible, they always do.
Of course existing veteran players were already at the top, the issue is new and casual players.
That is what ZOS focus is on, like it or not.
Edited by TequilaFire on April 27, 2021 7:37PM1 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭
This is exactly my sentiment and part of the reason why I stand on my statement, I am a solo player and a 1vX, and a lot of the time it is always the solo players complaining about proc damage sets, and they where also the same ones who complained when the stat based proc sets got disabled, they rather have this game cater to "THEIR" playstyle to be able to 1vX and kill people "Easier" that's why majority it's them making post and videos about how bad some of changes constantly made are. Crimson can be annoying but a good player just needs not to be within it's proximity. 1vX just want the game molded into their own world, and it also helps content creators to make video's to showcase this.
Exactly it is exhausting. Funny thing is how easy it will be to replace all the elitists with companions. I did vet FG1 yesterday with my companion no death. I don't think they'll be good enough to do tanking very well, especially complex mechs, but companions will replace DPS easily, although they need to allow more damage. On final boss vet fg1, I did about 5K DPS with tank and fully buffed for damage Bastian did about 3-4K DPS. The key to keeping Bastian alive is give all ranged skills and make sure taunt never falls off and keep Kragh far away from Bastian so the red carpet doesn't 1shot him.
As you say the new changes are great (or have great potential). There are some heavy sets like ice furnace that should scale off health and one set I used to love for PVP draug heritage should be off health too (it is totally tanky set). One thing that would be very nice for companions is if they scaled by the content, for instance, overland companion DPS is probably fine the way it is 3-5K DPS, for dungeons it would be better to be 7-10K DPS and in vet content 10-20K would be great.1 -
jwellsub17_ESO2✭✭✭
I would love for it to focus on the new and casual players, but IMNSHO that is not the case.TequilaFire wrote: »Of course existing veteran players were already at the top, the issue is new and casual players.
That is what ZOS focus is on, like it or not.
From my, admittedly limited, view of Blackwood there is almost nothing there for new players and not a lot for casual players other than the tutorial.
Companions will take too long for the new players to get (maybe move their quest starters closer to the main quest line locations) and way too long to level while casual players will not get much use from them, especially if their AI and stats are not drastically adjusted.. Even then, since you can't do Mage or Fighter guild dailies until you have completed the Eyevea quest line or the Earthforge quest line, and they can't do the Undaunted dailies until level 45, their companions will be limited to just the class & weapon lines.
There are no new classes or skill lines to excite casuals, nor is there more than about 25 hours worth of new content for casuals (40ish for new players) to keep them interested. Yes, there is a whole wide world after than, but many casuals, like myself, have been there and done that over the last 7+ years.
There is no new and exciting gear for casuals to collect, beyond completing their sticker books, nor does there appear to be a reason to do deadlands as the content appears geared towards higher efficiency groups, definitely not casual groups from my experience.
I understand what you are trying to say and I wish it were so, but in my opinion you are wrong and if ZOS thinks what they have created is meant to achieve your "goal" then they have failed miserably. Yes we have a month to fix the issues and smooth out the rough edges, but their track record has not been great to date. And I am saying that as someone who has been here since beta and hope to still be here in another 7 years.
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regime211✭✭✭✭✭
✭
[snip]
37k altmalexia tooltip, 20k vateshran, 27k crimson... this is what I've experiment ok pts.
And in group play it's worst than ever, cause you can buff minor/major courage, powerful assault, horn... that 20k vate becomes 25k, that 37k altmalexia becomes 40k...
Hybrids will be nerfed, wearing 3 proc set will be not so viable (health builds make exception) but gankers will be hugely buffed.
If I build for purely weapon dmg, I can get a AoE 25k/5 sec dot from Merciless, just investing 2 slot on my gear and 1 skill on my bar.
[snip] I 100% stand with their change.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Lunar on April 28, 2021 12:42PM1 -
regime211✭✭✭✭✭
✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »Casual PvPers are the ones getting screwed the hardest here. They will have zero chance against 45k HP permablock Crimson procdens, zero chance against full burst stat magsorcs/stamblades with 30k HP and 30k armor, and zero chance against nigh immortal ball groups stacking 30k healing procs on top of Earthgore with infinite purge spam and rolling siege bubbles. Minmaxed cheese setups will dominate harder than ever. I have canceled my ESO+ and will not be spending money on this game until they sort this mess out.
Those same Casual pvpers will be running the same thing, and it's like every patch people have something extremely negative to say. Zos can't win to appease the crowd, so I truly hope this patch goes live!1 -
Anyron✭✭✭✭✭
✭SeaGtGruff wrote: »
I disagree with the "at all" part. When you create a new character, that character has a certain amount of max health, health regen, max mag, mag regen, max stam, and stam regen, without having acquired and distributed any APs yet. You want new characters to do 0 damage because they haven't put any points into stam yet? I assume you weren't being literal, but as it was worded your comment seems to imply that 0 stam points should equal 0 damage, which is absurd. "Shouldn't do very much damage" would have been better wording, although IMO being extremely healthy shouldn't necessarily mean that a character is unable to do any appreciable stam- or mag-based damage.
Uh, doesn't that depend on the builds? It would be much more reasonable to say that a DD build that can't do more damage than a tank is a terrible DD build.
....what?
Seriously, what? Since when is new character automatickly tank?
I was talkimg about dedicated tanks, which build for it.
If they build for deff and health, they shouldnt get more damage because its not balanced.1 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭jwellsub17_ESO2 wrote: »I would love for it to focus on the new and casual players, but IMNSHO that is not the case.
Having wandered around it a bit and done some of the delve quests and the like the story stuff this time is actually looking pretty decent and isn't too demanding of combat skill. The pig one was a bit meh.. but the blackfeather court one is classic and some of the other bits are nicely done and some visuals like in the doomvault are superb.
Some of the public dungeon content is also really neat and I would think accessible in groups to casual/lower level players as intended as well as great fun to try and solo if you are not.
I imagine the tutorial change and advice from the internet will push everyone new away from this zone back to Coldharbour anyway - IMHO a good thing for the story experience.
As someone who has been bimbling around the new zone delves and story stuff it's actually looking pretty good from that angle even if the CP nerf is a bit of a mess, the 12 player groups needs reversing and the green tree is still mucked up.
In fact I suspect for casual players the 12 player group nonsense is actually the biggest problem for casual groups/guilds because it breaks all the slow ride groups, guild story runs etc.
Too many toons not enough time1 -
jwellsub17_ESO2✭✭✭
Perhaps I worded it a bit too harshly. I am not implying that it is not a good upgrade, merely that from my experience in the zone so far is that it is not focused on new or casual players.etchedpixels wrote: »Having wandered around it a bit and done some of the delve quests and the like the story stuff this time is actually looking pretty decent and isn't too demanding of combat skill. The pig one was a bit meh.. but the blackfeather court one is classic and some of the other bits are nicely done and some visuals like in the doomvault are superb.
Yes, the doomvaults are gorgeous and the quests I have done were fun, if not very long. Maybe it is just me, but there did not seem like enough content geared towards new players or casuals. IMO, the zone will be busy for 2ish weeks, possibly even a month, and then people will be back in Alinor and Coldharbor. Alik'r dolmen groups will probably not even miss a beat.
I really do hope I am wrong, I so want Blackwood to succeed0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Changes are amazing!!! Proc sets are totally balanced!!!
https://youtu.be/MymYuAqIE5k 2 -
regime211✭✭✭✭✭
✭relentless_turnip wrote: »Changes are amazing!!! Proc sets are totally balanced!!!https://youtu.be/MymYuAqIE5k
Unfortunately this video is irrelevant, as it does not display actual group play pvp gameplay. Everyone knows that players deal more damage then adds. Wait until you get d swing by 4 people, then tell me If these changes are not balanced.Edited by regime211 on April 28, 2021 4:27PM1 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
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Unfortunately this video is irrelevant, as it does not display actual group play pvp gameplay. Everyone knows that players deal more damage then adds. Wait until you get d swing by 4 people, then tell me If these changes are not balanced.
Actually it is relevant. It's a build in the Imperial City being able to take on one of the District Bosses—dealing damage and self healing—without requiring a single button press except the occasional repositioning to get out of a corner. It's ESO being played on autopilot. These kinds of builds should not be possible.
Except on the PTS currently they are. And ZOS needs to know that the current method and implementation of scaling they have adopted allow builds like this. Imagine this kind of build in PVE where there's no Battle Spirit. Why bother actively grinding when you could plant yourself on one of the spawn zones in the Spell-Scar and just watch a movie while the game plays itself for you in the background?4 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
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Unfortunately this video is irrelevant, as it does not display actual group play pvp gameplay. Everyone knows that players deal more damage then adds. Wait until you get d swing by 4 people, then tell me If these changes are not balanced.
😂 Ok... Please display evidence it is balanced, as the burden seems to be on others to prove the contrary. That IC boss hits hard btw, why don't you make a video of yourself standing still next to it on a stat build?3 -
XvarleyX✭✭✭
How can it be free? I paid good money to be able to farm my proc sets!
Free the damage!!!
+1. Remove the lid from Pandora's box.
If everything is broken, maybe we can all find something fun at last.1 -
doesurmindglow✭✭✭✭✭Lol, I love that the video is not "relevant" because it only shows that you can only kill bosses while AFK in PVE, which means nothing for the balance of PVP.
As if being able to kill bosses without using any combat skills or abilities is a remotely acceptable game balance for PVE.Guildmaster : The Wild Hunt (formerly Aka Baka) : AD PC/NA1 -
regime211✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Actually it is relevant. It's a build in the Imperial City being able to take on one of the District Bosses—dealing damage and self healing—without requiring a single button press except the occasional repositioning to get out of a corner. It's ESO being played on autopilot. These kinds of builds should not be possible.
Except on the PTS currently they are. And ZOS needs to know that the current method and implementation of scaling they have adopted allow builds like this. Imagine this kind of build in PVE where there's no Battle Spirit. Why bother actively grinding when you could plant yourself on one of the spawn zones in the Spell-Scar and just watch a movie while the game plays itself for you in the background?
Correct this is "PTS" and not a "LIVE" server, so that makes the video irrelevant! Because something such as that would not go live, and the boss itself wouldn't die to that AFK build, any low level trash mobs would.0 -
KashyyyK240✭✭✭
Correct this is "PTS" and not a "LIVE" server, so that makes the video irrelevant! Because something such as that would not go live, and the boss itself wouldn't die to that AFK build, any low level trash mobs would.
What do you mean, man? "something such as that would not go live"
That build is literally a boosted version of the old Alessian & Crimson werewolf that went on and on for 6 months on live server. Even with the nerf to Alessian, it's still broken af and a bunch of werewolves running that become unkillable zerg machines. It's right there, on your very live server. Crimson didn't take a single nerf since release and Alessian got a nerf where it's still 70% as good as it used to be, just not as op.
What makes you think they'll nerf any single set piece during the first 3 months of Blackwood? They either fix scaling as a whole or this becomes your daily occurence of broken builds.
With that you can easily nBRP afk farm, zombie afk farm, you can even place yourself in a crowded place of a public dungeon and go out for a walk...Edited by KashyyyK240 on April 29, 2021 1:36AM3