Changes are amazing!

regime211 · April 2021

Thank you zos for the changes you guys are currently implementing! I hope they go live! No this isn't sarcasm, but this is the best way to change the proc meta.

iksde · April 2021

as for proc sets and I like it but for stamina and some "tank" procs there is to low borderline to get full funkcionality while for magica spell dmg scalling is to harsh in compare to them, I would give higher req of scaling from weapon dmg than it is now and more resists need for tank sets scaling for sure

propertyOfUndefined · April 2021

I am pretty happy with the changes. I think they address the problem most were complaining about - that very tanky setups could still output a ton of damage. The proc sets are still viable sources of damage and healing, but with a reasonable investment in stats. This is the way it should be.

A lot of players seem to be concerned about the sets being used for burst damage set ups in pvp, but I don’t think that was ever the problem. They should absolutely be viable sources of damage, just not on 40K hp tanks in full heavy armor who are near invincible. Players should be allowed to continue to use zaan + wrath of elements effectively if they want to, but at the cost of sustain and survivability.

Sandman929 · April 2021

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I am pretty happy with the changes. I think they address the problem most were complaining about - that very tanky setups could still output a ton of damage. The proc sets are still viable sources of damage and healing, but with a reasonable investment in stats. This is the way it should be.

A lot of players seem to be concerned about the sets being used for burst damage set ups in pvp, but I don’t think that was ever the problem. They should absolutely be viable sources of damage, just not on 40K hp tanks in full heavy armor who are near invincible. Players should be allowed to continue to use zaan + wrath of elements effectively if they want to, but at the cost of sustain and survivability.

How about a 100k hp tank with a 25k AoE burst that heals the tank for damage done? Sounds reasonable?

propertyOfUndefined · April 2021

Sandman929 wrote: »

show previous quotes

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I am pretty happy with the changes. I think they address the problem most were complaining about - that very tanky setups could still output a ton of damage. The proc sets are still viable sources of damage and healing, but with a reasonable investment in stats. This is the way it should be.

A lot of players seem to be concerned about the sets being used for burst damage set ups in pvp, but I don’t think that was ever the problem. They should absolutely be viable sources of damage, just not on 40K hp tanks in full heavy armor who are near invincible. Players should be allowed to continue to use zaan + wrath of elements effectively if they want to, but at the cost of sustain and survivability.

How about a 100k hp tank with a 25k AoE burst that heals the tank for damage done? Sounds reasonable?

I assume you are referring to crimson. This is PTS afterall. We should meet up and test it, and if those numbers are achievable, then report it as a specific problem.

Mojmir · April 2021

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sandman929 wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I am pretty happy with the changes. I think they address the problem most were complaining about - that very tanky setups could still output a ton of damage. The proc sets are still viable sources of damage and healing, but with a reasonable investment in stats. This is the way it should be.

A lot of players seem to be concerned about the sets being used for burst damage set ups in pvp, but I don’t think that was ever the problem. They should absolutely be viable sources of damage, just not on 40K hp tanks in full heavy armor who are near invincible. Players should be allowed to continue to use zaan + wrath of elements effectively if they want to, but at the cost of sustain and survivability.

How about a 100k hp tank with a 25k AoE burst that heals the tank for damage done? Sounds reasonable?

I assume you are referring to crimson. This is PTS afterall. We should meet up and test it, and if those numbers are achievable, then report it as a specific problem.

You must be new, PTS doesnt even matter anymore, whats there is pretty much set in stone with some minor tweaks to say they listened.

Susurrus · April 2021

Yeah, sorry dudes, the data I'm seeing shows this as a realllly bad change in PVP here are some links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy5yV27vScI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQdKdNWGXFE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMcURKycg_I

I personally don't think its fun to one shot everything including other players. A necro with 60k EHP who hits for 70k proc set damage off of one attack is not a fun game to play. Those are the numbers in video #1.

gariondavey · April 2021

I question OP XD lol

regime211 · April 2021

People are looking at numbers, and videos of other content creators and not actually testing stuff themselves. I think the scaling is just fine, with a few minor adjustments it will be what is needed. People coming about certain sets like crimson for the heal as if it doesn't have a cooldown or you can't just dodge roll the damage.

regime211 · April 2021

Also some are just making content for the sake of making content to just complain at this point.

regime211 · April 2021

Susurrus wrote: »

Yeah, sorry dudes, the data I'm seeing shows this as a realllly bad change in PVP here are some links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy5yV27vScI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQdKdNWGXFE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMcURKycg_I

I personally don't think its fun to one shot everything including other players. A necro with 60k EHP who hits for 70k proc set damage off of one attack is not a fun game to play. Those are the numbers in video #1.

I'm not taking anything from those videos as face value at all. Hitting target dummies to show damage of sets or equipping sets to show the number values doesn't do anything unless you're actually dueling someone. No Hate on those who post these videos, but how about we see them actually duel other people to see how effective some of these so called Over powered sets really work? Like the first video displays. But even then it can still be questionable.

regime211 · April 2021

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I am pretty happy with the changes. I think they address the problem most were complaining about - that very tanky setups could still output a ton of damage. The proc sets are still viable sources of damage and healing, but with a reasonable investment in stats. This is the way it should be.

A lot of players seem to be concerned about the sets being used for burst damage set ups in pvp, but I don’t think that was ever the problem. They should absolutely be viable sources of damage, just not on 40K hp tanks in full heavy armor who are near invincible. Players should be allowed to continue to use zaan + wrath of elements effectively if they want to, but at the cost of sustain and survivability.

I also look at it as this, any sets that are specifically designed for a tank should scale off of their max health, and it should do damage, we normalize a tank just to block and take damage, but forget a tank should also be able to do damage, you know kind of like how stam users can wear a tanky setup yet do tons of damage? So the damage scaling for tanks is correct and should stay that way. I have always said a health based tank should still do damage, and now they have introduced it.

Anonx31st · April 2021

Tanks should be able to have sets for DPS so they can do solo content like quests without having to spend money on the respect costs, etc. By having a couple DPS sets for tanks, this will get some more people to play as a tank, and as a result, reduce the tank shortage.

doesurmindglow · April 2021

I have tested things in actual combat.

Am proccing my friends down on a 72k HP warden tank with my sets alone, and experiencing few if any downsides from doing so. It's absolutely broken, and will be doing it a lot if it goes live. Given those tests, I hope it does not go live. I prefer challenging, balanced PVP with a diversity of viable builds, and this will not give us that based on the results from testing so far.

Anyron · April 2021

regime211 wrote: »

show previous quotes

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I am pretty happy with the changes. I think they address the problem most were complaining about - that very tanky setups could still output a ton of damage. The proc sets are still viable sources of damage and healing, but with a reasonable investment in stats. This is the way it should be.

A lot of players seem to be concerned about the sets being used for burst damage set ups in pvp, but I don’t think that was ever the problem. They should absolutely be viable sources of damage, just not on 40K hp tanks in full heavy armor who are near invincible. Players should be allowed to continue to use zaan + wrath of elements effectively if they want to, but at the cost of sustain and survivability.

I also look at it as this, any sets that are specifically designed for a tank should scale off of their max health, and it should do damage, we normalize a tank just to block and take damage, but forget a tank should also be able to do damage, you know kind of like how stam users can wear a tanky setup yet do tons of damage? So the damage scaling for tanks is correct and should stay that way. I have always said a health based tank should still do damage, and now they have introduced it.

Health based tank shouldnt do damage at all. It wasnt in past, its just recent meta.
Tanks job is to keep trash and boss at him while having health enought for healer to heal him in burst phase and have enought deff to mitigate damage.

If you want balanced game, then max health+deff = no damage othervise it creates unhealthy playstyle environment.

Remember, this is also pvp game. I know you like to forget about it but its here. And there is always someone who wants to troll as much as possible to make other game feel miserable because they feel that way in real.
Make it as hard for them as possible

regime211 · April 2021

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I have tested things in actual combat.

Am proccing my friends down on a 72k HP warden tank with my sets alone, and experiencing few if any downsides from doing so. It's absolutely broken, and will be doing it a lot if it goes live. Given those tests, I hope it does not go live. I prefer challenging, balanced PVP with a diversity of viable builds, and this will not give us that based on the results from testing so far.

Since when have we ever had balanced pvp? And no with the disabling of procs we still don't have balanced pvp. I believe these changes should stay. Yes you proc down your "friend" but the real question is can you do it to a zerg? A 12 man group? A small 4 man group? Your chances of doing that can still be slim, and the reason is as a tank if you go the tank/dps route chances are you won't survive long enough to get all that damage off with the cool downs on your sets.

regime211 · April 2021

Anyron wrote: »

show previous quotes

regime211 wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I am pretty happy with the changes. I think they address the problem most were complaining about - that very tanky setups could still output a ton of damage. The proc sets are still viable sources of damage and healing, but with a reasonable investment in stats. This is the way it should be.

A lot of players seem to be concerned about the sets being used for burst damage set ups in pvp, but I don’t think that was ever the problem. They should absolutely be viable sources of damage, just not on 40K hp tanks in full heavy armor who are near invincible. Players should be allowed to continue to use zaan + wrath of elements effectively if they want to, but at the cost of sustain and survivability.

I also look at it as this, any sets that are specifically designed for a tank should scale off of their max health, and it should do damage, we normalize a tank just to block and take damage, but forget a tank should also be able to do damage, you know kind of like how stam users can wear a tanky setup yet do tons of damage? So the damage scaling for tanks is correct and should stay that way. I have always said a health based tank should still do damage, and now they have introduced it.

Health based tank shouldnt do damage at all. It wasnt in past, its just recent meta.
Tanks job is to keep trash and boss at him while having health enought for healer to heal him in burst phase and have enought deff to mitigate damage.

If you want balanced game, then max health+deff = no damage othervise it creates unhealthy playstyle environment.

Remember, this is also pvp game. I know you like to forget about it but its here. And there is always someone who wants to troll as much as possible to make other game feel miserable because they feel that way in real.
Make it as hard for them as possible

That is false, tanks have done damage and sometimes better damage then a dps, if you know how to build one they also can help tank and get rid of trash mobs. So I disagree.

TempestM · April 2021

That is false, tanks have done damage and sometimes better damage then a dps

And you don't see how this is a problem in PVP?

"Health and healing stacking tanks are impossible to kill!"
- well just never attack them lol
"Procs on tank hit harder the more they stack health!"
- well just never get hit lol
So basically stop playing the game once you face a tank in crimson?

Sets like Crimson doing too much damage while allowing to have too much hp and protection were one of the main reasons (+Malacath which is while getting nerfed, is still useful in no-crit PvP environment) why people asked for all proc changes in the first place. And now Crimson becoming even stronger? What can be good about those changes? PvP sets that scale damage with health not just do not solve the problem people had with procs in PvP, they make it even worse

Ellimist_Entreri · April 2021

Nvm - not worth it lmao

relentless_turnip · April 2021

I think it is a good idea currently executed badly. If they can't balance it so procs aren't meta, I think free damage and healing sets should be disabled until u31 when they can revisit this.

DonGodJoe · April 2021

Just watch the vids posted here, before you speak...

Ranger209 · April 2021

regime211 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Anyron wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I am pretty happy with the changes. I think they address the problem most were complaining about - that very tanky setups could still output a ton of damage. The proc sets are still viable sources of damage and healing, but with a reasonable investment in stats. This is the way it should be.

A lot of players seem to be concerned about the sets being used for burst damage set ups in pvp, but I don’t think that was ever the problem. They should absolutely be viable sources of damage, just not on 40K hp tanks in full heavy armor who are near invincible. Players should be allowed to continue to use zaan + wrath of elements effectively if they want to, but at the cost of sustain and survivability.

I also look at it as this, any sets that are specifically designed for a tank should scale off of their max health, and it should do damage, we normalize a tank just to block and take damage, but forget a tank should also be able to do damage, you know kind of like how stam users can wear a tanky setup yet do tons of damage? So the damage scaling for tanks is correct and should stay that way. I have always said a health based tank should still do damage, and now they have introduced it.

Health based tank shouldnt do damage at all. It wasnt in past, its just recent meta.
Tanks job is to keep trash and boss at him while having health enought for healer to heal him in burst phase and have enought deff to mitigate damage.

If you want balanced game, then max health+deff = no damage othervise it creates unhealthy playstyle environment.

Remember, this is also pvp game. I know you like to forget about it but its here. And there is always someone who wants to troll as much as possible to make other game feel miserable because they feel that way in real.
Make it as hard for them as possible

That is false, tanks have done damage and sometimes better damage then a dps, if you know how to build one they also can help tank and get rid of trash mobs. So I disagree.

Any game a tank does more damage than a damage dealer is just broken and not worth playing.

Sluggy · April 2021

The real issue is scaling. It's all linear. And many of the stats are fairly easy to achieve even while wearing multiple proc sets.

A simple approach would be to have severe dropoff after reaching the values we currently see on live. So for example, you have the required 33k armor to get Explosive Rebuke to 12k? Okay, now it scales off drastically so that when you pump another 33k in it doesn't double but rather maybe only grows by 10% more. Diminishing returns are our friends here.

To be fair I understand why they went linear. Even a simple logarithmic curve would be costly to introduce when we're talking about millions of calculations being performed. So instead why not use two linear curves? One that scales as it is on the PTS until you reach the values of the procs we currently see on live and then a second drastically lower scale after that?

TequilaFire · April 2021

A PvP tanks job is to get gullible players aggroed to beat on him so his buddies can kill them.
So built right they will always be hard to kill.

Sluggy · April 2021

TequilaFire wrote: »

A PvP tanks job is to get gullible players aggroed to beat on him so his buddies can kill them.
So built right they will always be hard to kill.

That's certainly true. But on the PTS right now we can have tanks that can literally one-shot entire groups of people.

TequilaFire · April 2021

Isn't that a bit exaggerated? Able to one shot entire groups at a single bound. lol
I am on PTS haven't seen that.
There are heavy hitters yes, but bear in mind they are using CP3600 templates with the best gear they can take out of containers.
It would take a very long time to reach those levels on live.

Sluggy · April 2021

In no CP I can hit 27k on my explosive rebuke while rocking nearly 5k weapon damage, 59k max armor, 41k hp and 30k stam and 2.5k stam regen. This is with zero CP.

Maybe not a one-shot in this case but in the right situation definitely a two shot. Onslaught -> heavy.

Others have been doing builds with all procs where a single light attack hits you with three or four procs for 15k each.

regime211 · April 2021

DonGodJoe wrote: »

Just watch the vids posted here, before you speak...

Those videos don't provide group pvp, so they don't provide actual results regarding the statements being made.

regime211 · April 2021

Ranger209 wrote: »

show previous quotes

regime211 wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I am pretty happy with the changes. I think they address the problem most were complaining about - that very tanky setups could still output a ton of damage. The proc sets are still viable sources of damage and healing, but with a reasonable investment in stats. This is the way it should be.

A lot of players seem to be concerned about the sets being used for burst damage set ups in pvp, but I don’t think that was ever the problem. They should absolutely be viable sources of damage, just not on 40K hp tanks in full heavy armor who are near invincible. Players should be allowed to continue to use zaan + wrath of elements effectively if they want to, but at the cost of sustain and survivability.

I also look at it as this, any sets that are specifically designed for a tank should scale off of their max health, and it should do damage, we normalize a tank just to block and take damage, but forget a tank should also be able to do damage, you know kind of like how stam users can wear a tanky setup yet do tons of damage? So the damage scaling for tanks is correct and should stay that way. I have always said a health based tank should still do damage, and now they have introduced it.

Health based tank shouldnt do damage at all. It wasnt in past, its just recent meta.
Tanks job is to keep trash and boss at him while having health enought for healer to heal him in burst phase and have enought deff to mitigate damage.

If you want balanced game, then max health+deff = no damage othervise it creates unhealthy playstyle environment.

Remember, this is also pvp game. I know you like to forget about it but its here. And there is always someone who wants to troll as much as possible to make other game feel miserable because they feel that way in real.
Make it as hard for them as possible

That is false, tanks have done damage and sometimes better damage then a dps, if you know how to build one they also can help tank and get rid of trash mobs. So I disagree.

Any game a tank does more damage than a damage dealer is just broken and not worth playing.

Or the damage dealer themselves need to have a better rotation and gear setup?

regime211 · April 2021

We have the ravenous goliath ultimate which scales off of max health on the damage it does, now if this did major damage, then people will complain. I stand by my statements that we constantly talk about balance which we never fully get real balance, the proposal that is being made now is the right direction, and as a pvp player if you choose to fight a 55k tank instead of ignoring them, and you get nuked by them then its your fault. This game was meant for build diversity, and everytime they try and push it, the community constantly throws a fit and then we get these nerfs or half done imbalances. You guys keep saying "Proc" sets but are failing to call out the ones that are the one's causing the real issues. Not every single proc set in this game even with malacath can do crazy insane damage.

"Performance" is the real issue not proc sets.

TempestM · April 2021

regime211 wrote: »

and as a pvp player if you choose to fight a 55k tank instead of ignoring them, and you get nuked by them then its your fault.

Just like I thought lol

"Health and healing stacking tanks are impossible to kill!"
- well just never attack them lol
"Procs on tank hit harder the more they stack health!"
- well just never get hit lol
So basically stop playing the game once you face a tank in crimson?

How are you going to ignore Necro tanks that hit 20k aoe healing damage every 8 seconds ON TOP of hitting you with other proc sets that boost WD and therefore boost other proc sets again like the ones mentioned in the videos. Those tanks are NOT harmless, that's why this whole proc set thing is a problem, and they are getting even more boosted now (especially Necrotanks)