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Massive Warden Nerf Way Overdone
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Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Ceejengine wrote: »Why does an AoE damage + CC even heal in the first place? I love my warden build and I will love it after this fix.
Wayyy too strong.
Seem to recall it being a heal first, maybe heal + damage
it used to be a skill where it was a single target stun as well as a heal
it makes more snes as a heal in the Warden toolkit tho -- there is already Gripping Shards as an AoE damage + CC skill that does damage scaling based on health
having damage or CC effects on a heal skill does not make a lot of snes, but seem to recall ZOS having some sort of "point" system where they add or subtract effects from skills based on how much points the skill totals up to, then consider the skills balanced based on if their points match up rather than based on what actual effects it has
Am just not certain why the heal is being decreased of all directions to take with this skill
remove the damage over time effect, and leave tanks with a powerful burst heal rather than having us constantly activating a heal skill every 5 seconds regardless of how much damage we have taken, in order to keep our DPS count up because this game is all about DPSing as fast as you can
tone the Stun back down to the single-target it was before,
make it so the damage no longer scales off of Health stat so players who want to use it have to choose between a good self heal (keep the heal based on Health) or damage output
stop messing with my heals tho QQ
It doesn't really make sense as a heal at all considering that Wardens literally have an entire Green Balance dedicated healing skill tree in their class kit.
ZOS really should have kept the clear thematic delineation and stashed all of the healing abilities in there.
to be fair, the skill lines were never that great at being based on damage/healing/tanking, or else it would be on me to point out that a skill that self-heals and applies the Chilled effect for a Maim that reduces damage enemies do makes consistent sense in the tank skill line while a damage over time effect does not really; the AoE stun arguably fits the idea of tanks locking down enemies/groups of enemies
but then it starts to be questions of things like why there are defensive buffs or skills dedicated to resource regeneration in the damage (Animal Companions) tree
ZOS did at one point have more of a distinction to the skill trees, when they also had more distinction to the classes (Remember when playing Dragonknight was the only way to have a tank class with a Chains skill?)
in accord with the implication you make tho -- would be perfectly glad to see the heal dropped from Arctic Wind entirely and see Living Vines scale with Health Stat and provide a more meaningful burst heal based around that stat
but I'm pretty sure the skill was designed with the intent of the Healer applying it to the tank, rather than having the Tank reliably self-apply like Arctic Wind has done
I think it's fine to keep arctic wind and polar wind as health based tank heals. But arctic blast does not need this because it really needs to focus on the damage and stun portions. The healing for pvp dps should absolutely just be in green balance.
I'd be all for Arctic Blast morph being reworked to better suit DPS builds with the Polar Wind morph working for tanks -- to be clear, I enjoy having an Ice Mage to DPS on as my preferred character for Trials with the guild that has finally given me a home
but I fart around in vet dungeons a lot more on my Tank build Warden
am not actively looking to take skills away from DPS Wardens"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭confettibae wrote: »What about the magden dps in PVE (I take that char to an occasional bg or ic run, it’s built for PVE) who doesn’t have super high health and relies on this as a burst heal? I mean aside from the fact that to actually stun someone I have to spam it, as it only gives a chance to stun, person has to be hit with it what, 3 times? And that would totally drain my magicka at 3564 mag a pop, if I am in PVP it’s not like someone doesn’t have the opportunity to throw up a damage shield or roll out of the way before it stuns or does any significant damage.
The heal over time is 643 every one second for 5 seconds so not that much, while throwing 1642 dmg per second for 4 seconds, again, not that much. The appeal to me is the burst heal, and all of my chars are able to heal while doing damage in some form or another. I hesitate to list them given the circumstances. I would have rather the negligible amount of damage be reduced in some way or another than the heal, or have a version that stuns without the heal as a morph.
I’ve been killed by quite a few wardens while playing other characters and none of them killed me with artic blast. They were more experienced players or outnumbered me and even if I’m on a more PvP centered build I fully expect to die under those circumstances, not salty about it at all.
You don't need to spam for the CC. The ticks can proc it.
And nobody actually cares about the stun and damage to be honest. Even if they took that away instead of nerfing the heal, it still wouldn't fix it as the problem is how high it can heal and scales with max health.
For a DD spec you have the mushroom heal.1 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭confettibae wrote: »What about the magden dps in PVE (I take that char to an occasional bg or ic run, it’s built for PVE) who doesn’t have super high health and relies on this as a burst heal? I mean aside from the fact that to actually stun someone I have to spam it, as it only gives a chance to stun, person has to be hit with it what, 3 times? And that would totally drain my magicka at 3564 mag a pop, if I am in PVP it’s not like someone doesn’t have the opportunity to throw up a damage shield or roll out of the way before it stuns or does any significant damage.
The heal over time is 643 every one second for 5 seconds so not that much, while throwing 1642 dmg per second for 4 seconds, again, not that much. The appeal to me is the burst heal, and all of my chars are able to heal while doing damage in some form or another. I hesitate to list them given the circumstances. I would have rather the negligible amount of damage be reduced in some way or another than the heal, or have a version that stuns without the heal as a morph.
I’ve been killed by quite a few wardens while playing other characters and none of them killed me with artic blast. They were more experienced players or outnumbered me and even if I’m on a more PvP centered build I fully expect to die under those circumstances, not salty about it at all.
You don't need to spam for the CC. The ticks can proc it.
And nobody actually cares about the stun and damage to be honest. Even if they took that away instead of nerfing the heal, it still wouldn't fix it as the problem is how high it can heal and scales with max health.
For a DD spec you have the mushroom heal.
After all this time have they still been adding and removing effects from this skill without balancing the heal output against Dragon Blood?"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭confettibae wrote: »What about the magden dps in PVE (I take that char to an occasional bg or ic run, it’s built for PVE) who doesn’t have super high health and relies on this as a burst heal? I mean aside from the fact that to actually stun someone I have to spam it, as it only gives a chance to stun, person has to be hit with it what, 3 times? And that would totally drain my magicka at 3564 mag a pop, if I am in PVP it’s not like someone doesn’t have the opportunity to throw up a damage shield or roll out of the way before it stuns or does any significant damage.
The heal over time is 643 every one second for 5 seconds so not that much, while throwing 1642 dmg per second for 4 seconds, again, not that much. The appeal to me is the burst heal, and all of my chars are able to heal while doing damage in some form or another. I hesitate to list them given the circumstances. I would have rather the negligible amount of damage be reduced in some way or another than the heal, or have a version that stuns without the heal as a morph.
I’ve been killed by quite a few wardens while playing other characters and none of them killed me with artic blast. They were more experienced players or outnumbered me and even if I’m on a more PvP centered build I fully expect to die under those circumstances, not salty about it at all.
You don't need to spam for the CC. The ticks can proc it.
And nobody actually cares about the stun and damage to be honest. Even if they took that away instead of nerfing the heal, it still wouldn't fix it as the problem is how high it can heal and scales with max health.
For a DD spec you have the mushroom heal.
Arctic Blast solely as a heal bothers no one. It’s in fact the stun / chill component on top that makes this skill so strong. Arctic Blast solely as a heal would be fine. Nerfing the heal, but keeping all the other factors attached to it, doesn’t do much to solve the initial problem.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »confettibae wrote: »What about the magden dps in PVE (I take that char to an occasional bg or ic run, it’s built for PVE) who doesn’t have super high health and relies on this as a burst heal? I mean aside from the fact that to actually stun someone I have to spam it, as it only gives a chance to stun, person has to be hit with it what, 3 times? And that would totally drain my magicka at 3564 mag a pop, if I am in PVP it’s not like someone doesn’t have the opportunity to throw up a damage shield or roll out of the way before it stuns or does any significant damage.
The heal over time is 643 every one second for 5 seconds so not that much, while throwing 1642 dmg per second for 4 seconds, again, not that much. The appeal to me is the burst heal, and all of my chars are able to heal while doing damage in some form or another. I hesitate to list them given the circumstances. I would have rather the negligible amount of damage be reduced in some way or another than the heal, or have a version that stuns without the heal as a morph.
I’ve been killed by quite a few wardens while playing other characters and none of them killed me with artic blast. They were more experienced players or outnumbered me and even if I’m on a more PvP centered build I fully expect to die under those circumstances, not salty about it at all.
You don't need to spam for the CC. The ticks can proc it.
And nobody actually cares about the stun and damage to be honest. Even if they took that away instead of nerfing the heal, it still wouldn't fix it as the problem is how high it can heal and scales with max health.
For a DD spec you have the mushroom heal.
Arctic Blast solely as a heal bothers no one. It’s in fact the stun / chill component on top that makes this skill so strong. Arctic Blast solely as a heal would be fine. Nerfing the heal, but keeping all the other factors attached to it, doesn’t do much to solve the initial problem.
Yes it does.
The damage is nothing, the stun is a bit annoying, but not a huge issue.
Health based heals are the problem.
In fact on my server there's a group of two warden that go around using the other morph, that's heals someone else, and it's absolutely dumb trying to turn them.Edited by Brrrofski on April 26, 2021 7:42AM1 -
madrab73✭✭✭✭✭On live it's tied for the strongest skill in the game along with Betty. Not sure if 20% is enough.1
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West93✭✭✭✭✭RedFireDisco wrote: »20% reduction to Arctic Wind heal is way too much. It's not a big heal even on a high health build.
I can't remember the last time I saw a 20% nerf to a single class ability. Even at 10% that's pretty harsh.
Add this to a 50% reduction in upcoming health regen and that's going to kill a whole swag of Warden builds outright.
Not good enough. Buff other classes instead of destroying people's builds.
Radiant destruction was nerfed 21% back in homestead patch I believe. And I was maining magplar in pvp at that time.
Finally wardens gets the same treatment. I say nerf that skill more. 40%. Enough of 40k+ hp wardens thinking they are actually good at pvp spamming arctic wind.0 -
INe_Saninus✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »confettibae wrote: »What about the magden dps in PVE (I take that char to an occasional bg or ic run, it’s built for PVE) who doesn’t have super high health and relies on this as a burst heal? I mean aside from the fact that to actually stun someone I have to spam it, as it only gives a chance to stun, person has to be hit with it what, 3 times? And that would totally drain my magicka at 3564 mag a pop, if I am in PVP it’s not like someone doesn’t have the opportunity to throw up a damage shield or roll out of the way before it stuns or does any significant damage.
The heal over time is 643 every one second for 5 seconds so not that much, while throwing 1642 dmg per second for 4 seconds, again, not that much. The appeal to me is the burst heal, and all of my chars are able to heal while doing damage in some form or another. I hesitate to list them given the circumstances. I would have rather the negligible amount of damage be reduced in some way or another than the heal, or have a version that stuns without the heal as a morph.
I’ve been killed by quite a few wardens while playing other characters and none of them killed me with artic blast. They were more experienced players or outnumbered me and even if I’m on a more PvP centered build I fully expect to die under those circumstances, not salty about it at all.
You don't need to spam for the CC. The ticks can proc it.
And nobody actually cares about the stun and damage to be honest. Even if they took that away instead of nerfing the heal, it still wouldn't fix it as the problem is how high it can heal and scales with max health.
For a DD spec you have the mushroom heal.
Arctic Blast solely as a heal bothers no one. It’s in fact the stun / chill component on top that makes this skill so strong. Arctic Blast solely as a heal would be fine. Nerfing the heal, but keeping all the other factors attached to it, doesn’t do much to solve the initial problem.
Yes it does.
The damage is nothing, the stun is a bit annoying, but not a huge issue.
Health based heals are the problem.
In fact on my server there's a group of two warden that go around using the other morph, that's heals someone else, and it's absolutely dumb trying to turn them.
The stun might not seem like that big of a deal, but it is an execute stopper.
Is that the primary contributor to this ability being OP? No.
Does it still contribute? Yes.
I can't tell you how many Wardens get saved by the CC when I'm moving into execute.3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I disagree. Tanks shouldn't be able to heal as much (or DPS). There needs to be more of a dependency on healers in this game since it is a MMO that uses the holy trinity.
I've always viewed "the trinity" as including the Tank having capacity to keep themselves alive while the healer is putting out group or single buffs on the tank and keeping the dps alive
personally I would have dropped out the damage of the skill, or made it not scale on HP builds instead of damage stats anymore
and maybe even removed the damage over time effect from the multi-heal morph; it would be nice to be able to use this skill to keep alive while helping people Hard Mode the Crypt of Hearts 2 without risk of killing the ghosts in the process
Over the years in MMO's that use the holy trinity, tanks were keeping themselves alive through damage mitigation not heals. Heals is the healers job.
Again, as someone who has played Paladins in other MMOs I am used to having a tanky character with heal skills going back roughly 15 years of various titles
Similar with playing a Cleric or Paladin in D&D -- tend to be tanky with self heals, ability to do damage exists but is mitigated by spell slots (tabletop) or cooldowns (other MMOs)
ZOS having no cooldown on their skills does a lot to break the fundamentals of the trinity as it is because healers can toss heals until they run out of resources, and DPS rotation is fixed based on the duration of effects, rather than the timer on being able to cast the skill again
But Paladins and Clerics were not nearly the capable front-line offensive combatants that Barbarians and Fighters were (excepting the Clerics of D&D 3.5 with 20 sourcebooks shenanigans). Wardens have been top tier since they were introduced to the game.
Wardens were top tier before ZOS gave them Arctic Blast. That people are resisting this change just goes to show how most people do not care about balance, they just care that their own abilities remain as strong as they can possibly be, while having no problem flooding these forums to nerf other classes.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.6 -
Kel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »I disagree. Tanks shouldn't be able to heal as much (or DPS). There needs to be more of a dependency on healers in this game since it is a MMO that uses the holy trinity.
I've always viewed "the trinity" as including the Tank having capacity to keep themselves alive while the healer is putting out group or single buffs on the tank and keeping the dps alive
personally I would have dropped out the damage of the skill, or made it not scale on HP builds instead of damage stats anymore
and maybe even removed the damage over time effect from the multi-heal morph; it would be nice to be able to use this skill to keep alive while helping people Hard Mode the Crypt of Hearts 2 without risk of killing the ghosts in the process
Over the years in MMO's that use the holy trinity, tanks were keeping themselves alive through damage mitigation not heals. Heals is the healers job.
Again, as someone who has played Paladins in other MMOs I am used to having a tanky character with heal skills going back roughly 15 years of various titles
Similar with playing a Cleric or Paladin in D&D -- tend to be tanky with self heals, ability to do damage exists but is mitigated by spell slots (tabletop) or cooldowns (other MMOs)
ZOS having no cooldown on their skills does a lot to break the fundamentals of the trinity as it is because healers can toss heals until they run out of resources, and DPS rotation is fixed based on the duration of effects, rather than the timer on being able to cast the skill again
But Paladins and Clerics were not nearly the capable front-line offensive combatants that Barbarians and Fighters were (excepting the Clerics of D&D 3.5 with 20 sourcebooks shenanigans). Wardens have been top tier since they were introduced to the game.
Wardens were top tier before ZOS gave them Arctic Blast. That people are resisting this change just goes to show how most people do not care about balance, they just care that their own abilities remain as strong as they can possibly be, while having no problem flooding these forums to nerf other classes.
^
Exactly this.
And much appreciation for the warden players who've spoken up to say that yes, this skill is overloaded in it's capabilities.
Your honesty and care for actual balance is something I hope ZoS takes into account.5 -
Anonx31st✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »I disagree. Tanks shouldn't be able to heal as much (or DPS). There needs to be more of a dependency on healers in this game since it is a MMO that uses the holy trinity.
I've always viewed "the trinity" as including the Tank having capacity to keep themselves alive while the healer is putting out group or single buffs on the tank and keeping the dps alive
personally I would have dropped out the damage of the skill, or made it not scale on HP builds instead of damage stats anymore
and maybe even removed the damage over time effect from the multi-heal morph; it would be nice to be able to use this skill to keep alive while helping people Hard Mode the Crypt of Hearts 2 without risk of killing the ghosts in the process
Over the years in MMO's that use the holy trinity, tanks were keeping themselves alive through damage mitigation not heals. Heals is the healers job.
Again, as someone who has played Paladins in other MMOs I am used to having a tanky character with heal skills going back roughly 15 years of various titles
Similar with playing a Cleric or Paladin in D&D -- tend to be tanky with self heals, ability to do damage exists but is mitigated by spell slots (tabletop) or cooldowns (other MMOs)
ZOS having no cooldown on their skills does a lot to break the fundamentals of the trinity as it is because healers can toss heals until they run out of resources, and DPS rotation is fixed based on the duration of effects, rather than the timer on being able to cast the skill again
But Paladins and Clerics were not nearly the capable front-line offensive combatants that Barbarians and Fighters were (excepting the Clerics of D&D 3.5 with 20 sourcebooks shenanigans). Wardens have been top tier since they were introduced to the game.
Wardens were top tier before ZOS gave them Arctic Blast. That people are resisting this change just goes to show how most people do not care about balance, they just care that their own abilities remain as strong as they can possibly be, while having no problem flooding these forums to nerf other classes.
^
Exactly this.
And much appreciation for the warden players who've spoken up to say that yes, this skill is overloaded in it's capabilities.
Your honesty and care for actual balance is something I hope ZoS takes into account.
Agreed and this is coming from a Warden main lol.0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »I disagree. Tanks shouldn't be able to heal as much (or DPS). There needs to be more of a dependency on healers in this game since it is a MMO that uses the holy trinity.
I've always viewed "the trinity" as including the Tank having capacity to keep themselves alive while the healer is putting out group or single buffs on the tank and keeping the dps alive
personally I would have dropped out the damage of the skill, or made it not scale on HP builds instead of damage stats anymore
and maybe even removed the damage over time effect from the multi-heal morph; it would be nice to be able to use this skill to keep alive while helping people Hard Mode the Crypt of Hearts 2 without risk of killing the ghosts in the process
Over the years in MMO's that use the holy trinity, tanks were keeping themselves alive through damage mitigation not heals. Heals is the healers job.
Again, as someone who has played Paladins in other MMOs I am used to having a tanky character with heal skills going back roughly 15 years of various titles
Similar with playing a Cleric or Paladin in D&D -- tend to be tanky with self heals, ability to do damage exists but is mitigated by spell slots (tabletop) or cooldowns (other MMOs)
ZOS having no cooldown on their skills does a lot to break the fundamentals of the trinity as it is because healers can toss heals until they run out of resources, and DPS rotation is fixed based on the duration of effects, rather than the timer on being able to cast the skill again
But Paladins and Clerics were not nearly the capable front-line offensive combatants that Barbarians and Fighters were (excepting the Clerics of D&D 3.5 with 20 sourcebooks shenanigans). Wardens have been top tier since they were introduced to the game.
Wardens were top tier before ZOS gave them Arctic Blast. That people are resisting this change just goes to show how most people do not care about balance, they just care that their own abilities remain as strong as they can possibly be, while having no problem flooding these forums to nerf other classes.
Thank you for repeating my point in a manner that garnered more agrees -- my post clearly stated that Cleric or Paladins in other games have their ability to do damage limited by mechanics that ZOS has decided are unimportant here
have personally been advocating for something to be done about the offensive side of this skill due to personally using the healing morph for PvE tanking since shortly after Warden was added to the game (had left, but came back about a month after Morrowind launch and made 3 Wardens)
a skill for survivability does not need to be loaded up with offensive bonuses; however, there are apparently people stating that no actually the healing is the problem, not the offensive capabilities, and that this skill is an example of Health based heals (so presumably also Dragon Blood and Dark Cloak) being too powerful
If anything, it is interesting to me to see you advocate that the class is too *offensively* strong, but also expressing that you think nerfing some of its *defensive* potential is an adequate solution"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
0 -
Anonx31st✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »I disagree. Tanks shouldn't be able to heal as much (or DPS). There needs to be more of a dependency on healers in this game since it is a MMO that uses the holy trinity.
I've always viewed "the trinity" as including the Tank having capacity to keep themselves alive while the healer is putting out group or single buffs on the tank and keeping the dps alive
personally I would have dropped out the damage of the skill, or made it not scale on HP builds instead of damage stats anymore
and maybe even removed the damage over time effect from the multi-heal morph; it would be nice to be able to use this skill to keep alive while helping people Hard Mode the Crypt of Hearts 2 without risk of killing the ghosts in the process
Over the years in MMO's that use the holy trinity, tanks were keeping themselves alive through damage mitigation not heals. Heals is the healers job.
Again, as someone who has played Paladins in other MMOs I am used to having a tanky character with heal skills going back roughly 15 years of various titles
Similar with playing a Cleric or Paladin in D&D -- tend to be tanky with self heals, ability to do damage exists but is mitigated by spell slots (tabletop) or cooldowns (other MMOs)
ZOS having no cooldown on their skills does a lot to break the fundamentals of the trinity as it is because healers can toss heals until they run out of resources, and DPS rotation is fixed based on the duration of effects, rather than the timer on being able to cast the skill again
But Paladins and Clerics were not nearly the capable front-line offensive combatants that Barbarians and Fighters were (excepting the Clerics of D&D 3.5 with 20 sourcebooks shenanigans). Wardens have been top tier since they were introduced to the game.
Wardens were top tier before ZOS gave them Arctic Blast. That people are resisting this change just goes to show how most people do not care about balance, they just care that their own abilities remain as strong as they can possibly be, while having no problem flooding these forums to nerf other classes.
Thank you for repeating my point in a manner that garnered more agrees -- my post clearly stated that Cleric or Paladins in other games have their ability to do damage limited by mechanics that ZOS has decided are unimportant here
have personally been advocating for something to be done about the offensive side of this skill due to personally using the healing morph for PvE tanking since shortly after Warden was added to the game (had left, but came back about a month after Morrowind launch and made 3 Wardens)
a skill for survivability does not need to be loaded up with offensive bonuses; however, there are apparently people stating that no actually the healing is the problem, not the offensive capabilities, and that this skill is an example of Health based heals (so presumably also Dragon Blood and Dark Cloak) being too powerful
If anything, it is interesting to me to see you advocate that the class is too *offensively* strong, but also expressing that you think nerfing some of its *defensive* potential is an adequate solution
Isn't the additional defensive mechanics from classes (like Cleric or Paladin that you mentioned) from heals? They have less damage mitigation, so they make up for that with heals.0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭.Joy_Division wrote: »I disagree. Tanks shouldn't be able to heal as much (or DPS). There needs to be more of a dependency on healers in this game since it is a MMO that uses the holy trinity.
I've always viewed "the trinity" as including the Tank having capacity to keep themselves alive while the healer is putting out group or single buffs on the tank and keeping the dps alive
personally I would have dropped out the damage of the skill, or made it not scale on HP builds instead of damage stats anymore
and maybe even removed the damage over time effect from the multi-heal morph; it would be nice to be able to use this skill to keep alive while helping people Hard Mode the Crypt of Hearts 2 without risk of killing the ghosts in the process
Over the years in MMO's that use the holy trinity, tanks were keeping themselves alive through damage mitigation not heals. Heals is the healers job.
Again, as someone who has played Paladins in other MMOs I am used to having a tanky character with heal skills going back roughly 15 years of various titles
Similar with playing a Cleric or Paladin in D&D -- tend to be tanky with self heals, ability to do damage exists but is mitigated by spell slots (tabletop) or cooldowns (other MMOs)
ZOS having no cooldown on their skills does a lot to break the fundamentals of the trinity as it is because healers can toss heals until they run out of resources, and DPS rotation is fixed based on the duration of effects, rather than the timer on being able to cast the skill again
But Paladins and Clerics were not nearly the capable front-line offensive combatants that Barbarians and Fighters were (excepting the Clerics of D&D 3.5 with 20 sourcebooks shenanigans). Wardens have been top tier since they were introduced to the game.
Wardens were top tier before ZOS gave them Arctic Blast. That people are resisting this change just goes to show how most people do not care about balance, they just care that their own abilities remain as strong as they can possibly be, while having no problem flooding these forums to nerf other classes.
Thank you for repeating my point in a manner that garnered more agrees -- my post clearly stated that Cleric or Paladins in other games have their ability to do damage limited by mechanics that ZOS has decided are unimportant here
have personally been advocating for something to be done about the offensive side of this skill due to personally using the healing morph for PvE tanking since shortly after Warden was added to the game (had left, but came back about a month after Morrowind launch and made 3 Wardens)
a skill for survivability does not need to be loaded up with offensive bonuses; however, there are apparently people stating that no actually the healing is the problem, not the offensive capabilities, and that this skill is an example of Health based heals (so presumably also Dragon Blood and Dark Cloak) being too powerful
If anything, it is interesting to me to see you advocate that the class is too *offensively* strong, but also expressing that you think nerfing some of its *defensive* potential is an adequate solution
Isn't the additional defensive mechanics from classes (like Cleric or Paladin that you mentioned) from heals? They have less damage mitigation, so they make up for that with heals.
Do you need a refresher on our conversation?
You said you think that tanks should not have as much healing or damage output because the trinity has them focus on damage mitigation
I pointed out that tanking as a Cleric or Paladin done by having heals that make up for less damage mitigation, and that their focus on self-heals are how they tank; I also stated at that point that my own approach to changing this skill would have been to remove the damage of the skill
I am still advocating for this -- nerf the damage potential of the skill and keep it as a heal for tanking
if the Arctic Blast morph is going to be a DPS skill with a CC on it, have that morph drop the heal in exchange for picking up the stun
It seems the biggest contrast between myself and others in this thread is simply that I view this skill primarily as a heal that works for PvE tanking, and that its focus should be on healing and tanking rather than damage
I'd be fine with the skill (particularly the heal morph) doing ticks of 1 damage per hit, if that was the only way ZOS could figure out how to make it into a Heal skill that also applied Maim to crowds of adds
I do not currently use the stun morph, and I have not used the stun morph in the past when the skill functioned as a single-target stun + self heal"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
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ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭Disagree with OP.
First, HP regen is one of the most broken stats on live right now. That you can gain enough of it to heal more than vigor ticks and rapid regen ticks when those must crit and require WD/SD to be invested, require you to cast them, and that have a cost associated with them in stam and magicka, is a problem.
It's also a problem when you can reach 4k-5k-6k hp recovery without procs on live right now, with little effort and little investment into stats. We all know what healing or damage with little stat investment ultimately leads to in this game : unkillable builds that push a lot of damage out, and seem to sustain forever.
Players continuously got active healing nerfed over the years by pretending that HP recovery wasn't it, and then double and triple downed on that HP recovery as their "secret sauce" to their near-immortal builds, and now that it's exposed and getting nerfed like it should have over 2 years ago, it's a problem?
And not just any problem, it's a warden problem? Yeah, no.
All other "healing" in the game is reduced by 50% when enter PvP, why shouldn't HP recovery be reduced as well? So far there are zero compelling arguments other than "my hp recov stacking build is going to get hit and I won't have it easy anymore." That's literally it.
Enough of the "interesting mechanic" or "identity" or whatever word someone wants to use to pretend it's not simply an overperforming mechanic in the game that they are crutching on for their build.
As for Artic Wind being nerfed, it was well-deserved.
When a heal scales on HP, HP is the easiest stat to stack, and that heal outperforms every other stat-based heal in the game, it's a problem and needs a nerf or those other heals need a buff to bring them in line.
Even when players put EVERYTHING into their stat-based heals they cannot ever reach the power of artic wind, without making extreme sacrifices to sustain, crit, defense, or other stats that wardens never have to.
That's ignoring that the skill also does AoE damage, can proc other negative effects, can proc sets, is a HoT, and procs passives.
If you compare artic wind to coagulated blood, breath of life, or offering, it's clear as day that the skill is not balanced on every front and it's the outlier.
To say that a nerf is overdone because you cannot have a tank build blasting damage out and healing with little consequence after the changes, is just silly.
If you think the nerf is overdone, where exactly were you when other classes got cut? Templar Ritual of Retribution got its heal removed and it wasn't an overloaded AoE that did massive amounts of healing and procced effects.3 -
Anonx31st✭✭✭.Joy_Division wrote: »I disagree. Tanks shouldn't be able to heal as much (or DPS). There needs to be more of a dependency on healers in this game since it is a MMO that uses the holy trinity.
I've always viewed "the trinity" as including the Tank having capacity to keep themselves alive while the healer is putting out group or single buffs on the tank and keeping the dps alive
personally I would have dropped out the damage of the skill, or made it not scale on HP builds instead of damage stats anymore
and maybe even removed the damage over time effect from the multi-heal morph; it would be nice to be able to use this skill to keep alive while helping people Hard Mode the Crypt of Hearts 2 without risk of killing the ghosts in the process
Over the years in MMO's that use the holy trinity, tanks were keeping themselves alive through damage mitigation not heals. Heals is the healers job.
Again, as someone who has played Paladins in other MMOs I am used to having a tanky character with heal skills going back roughly 15 years of various titles
Similar with playing a Cleric or Paladin in D&D -- tend to be tanky with self heals, ability to do damage exists but is mitigated by spell slots (tabletop) or cooldowns (other MMOs)
ZOS having no cooldown on their skills does a lot to break the fundamentals of the trinity as it is because healers can toss heals until they run out of resources, and DPS rotation is fixed based on the duration of effects, rather than the timer on being able to cast the skill again
But Paladins and Clerics were not nearly the capable front-line offensive combatants that Barbarians and Fighters were (excepting the Clerics of D&D 3.5 with 20 sourcebooks shenanigans). Wardens have been top tier since they were introduced to the game.
Wardens were top tier before ZOS gave them Arctic Blast. That people are resisting this change just goes to show how most people do not care about balance, they just care that their own abilities remain as strong as they can possibly be, while having no problem flooding these forums to nerf other classes.
Thank you for repeating my point in a manner that garnered more agrees -- my post clearly stated that Cleric or Paladins in other games have their ability to do damage limited by mechanics that ZOS has decided are unimportant here
have personally been advocating for something to be done about the offensive side of this skill due to personally using the healing morph for PvE tanking since shortly after Warden was added to the game (had left, but came back about a month after Morrowind launch and made 3 Wardens)
a skill for survivability does not need to be loaded up with offensive bonuses; however, there are apparently people stating that no actually the healing is the problem, not the offensive capabilities, and that this skill is an example of Health based heals (so presumably also Dragon Blood and Dark Cloak) being too powerful
If anything, it is interesting to me to see you advocate that the class is too *offensively* strong, but also expressing that you think nerfing some of its *defensive* potential is an adequate solution
Isn't the additional defensive mechanics from classes (like Cleric or Paladin that you mentioned) from heals? They have less damage mitigation, so they make up for that with heals.
Do you need a refresher on our conversation?
You said you think that tanks should not have as much healing or damage output because the trinity has them focus on damage mitigation
I pointed out that tanking as a Cleric or Paladin done by having heals that make up for less damage mitigation, and that their focus on self-heals are how they tank; I also stated at that point that my own approach to changing this skill would have been to remove the damage of the skill
I am still advocating for this -- nerf the damage potential of the skill and keep it as a heal for tanking
if the Arctic Blast morph is going to be a DPS skill with a CC on it, have that morph drop the heal in exchange for picking up the stun
It seems the biggest contrast between myself and others in this thread is simply that I view this skill primarily as a heal that works for PvE tanking, and that its focus should be on healing and tanking rather than damage
I'd be fine with the skill (particularly the heal morph) doing ticks of 1 damage per hit, if that was the only way ZOS could figure out how to make it into a Heal skill that also applied Maim to crowds of adds
I do not currently use the stun morph, and I have not used the stun morph in the past when the skill functioned as a single-target stun + self heal
Yea, I get it. It's part of the Alcast build. I am sure a small % heal decrease isn't going to affect it that much when tanking for groups. You still have a healer you can depend on.0
