Massive Warden Nerf Way Overdone

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  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    [snip] If Zenimax would have actually compared all heals on different classes with the same health and damage stats, they would have found that Arctic Wind already was the weakest burst heal in the game. Only underpassed by the likes of Combat Prayer.

    So really, a very bad move. I hated fighting Wardens like everyone else, but I knew all along that Arctic Winds burst heal was not what made them good. My partner and I did extensive tests regarding this and Arctic Wind was never even a good burst heal. Nerf the non existent damage or the stun or the heal over time, but the burst heal could have used a buff actually.

    Perhaps now with the massive max health buffs it would have become problematic. I don't know, I'm not playing this game anymore.

    [Edited for Baiting]
    Edited by Psiion on April 24, 2021 7:17PM
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  • Brrrofski
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    the "burst" heal in pvp on 29 k is about 3k health. If you think that's the reason they're beating you then I can't elaborate.

    That's 2 ticks of my rally.

    Not saying you're lying...

    But it's more than that even when not in heavy.

    Also, Rally doesn't tick anymore, it's just a burst, so not sure when the last time you used rally is and when you even played pvp last...

    Edit: just tried it in pvp.

    Imperial, 27.5k health with 2% in healing received CP and 7 medium (so no boost from heavy) I get a 4.8k heal non proc, away from a keep.

    It takes 6 seconds for Rally to heal that much.

    Soothing spores heals for 5179.

    Have 4.8k weapon damage.

    Keep in mind this is in no proc cyrodiil as well, so no crazy sets, just raw stats. No heavy, no keep healing passive, no extra healing modifiers at all. Cba putting all heavy on to try.

    In PVE it's 8309. So I think tanks, in heavy, often with more healing received in CP and some sets having it, with way more than 27.5k health will be fine, even after the nerf (which will apply to base, not after multipliers).
    Edited by Brrrofski on April 24, 2021 3:45PM
  • Seraphayel
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    People seem to not understand the problem with Arctic Blast.

    Mainly it’s a direct heal with an additional heal over time effect.

    BUT on top of that

    ... it deals AoE damage
    ... it applies an AoE stun
    ... it applies AoE Chill
    ... which further increases Warden‘s damage

    How can y’all not see that this skill is completely overloaded in what it does and on top of that it does that all on multiple targets at once. Like honestly.
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  • Brrrofski
    Brrrofski
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    Brrrofski wrote: »

    Not saying you're lying...

    But it's more than that even when not in heavy.

    Also, Rally doesn't tick anymore, it's just a burst, so not sure when the last time you used rally is and when you even played pvp last...

    Edit: just tried it in pvp.

    Imperial, 27.5k health with 2% in healing received CP and 7 medium (so no boost from heavy) I get a 4.8k heal non proc, away from a keep.

    It takes 6 seconds for Rally to heal that much.

    Soothing spores heals for 5179.

    Have 4.8k weapon damage.

    Keep in mind this is in no proc cyrodiil as well, so no crazy sets, just raw stats. No heavy, no keep healing passive, no extra healing modifiers at all. Cba putting all heavy on to try.

    In PVE it's 8309. So I think tanks, in heavy, often with more healing received in CP and some sets having it, with way more than 27.5k health will be fine, even after the nerf (which will apply to base, not after multipliers).

    To add to this...

    My mag warden actually is an argonian and has 5 heavy. So I put the non slottable healing cp in and the single target one (as you'd use on a tank).

    With 32k health, in 5 heavy, none of which go e healing received or taken, it heals for 12k non crit.

    The skill will be fine in pve when it's on a proper tank.
    Edited by Brrrofski on April 24, 2021 3:55PM
  • rumple9
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    Used to be my favourite class but it's awful now
  • Wing
    Wing
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    Mathematically, if something is 20% stronger than it should be, the appropriate nerf is a 16.67% reduction.

    Sorry, I'll keep my nerd to myself next time...

    fair point, could you math out how much it was overperforming to receive a 20% nerf?
    Edited by Wing on April 24, 2021 7:01PM
    ESO player since beta.
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  • Psiion
    Psiion
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    Greetings all,

    After removing and editing a few posts, we would like to remind everyone that Baiting is non-constructive and against the Forum's Community Rules. While we encourage the sharing of opinions, we ask that everyone stay respectful, as well as keep the Community Rules in mind moving forward.
    Staff Post
  • confettibae
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    What about the magden dps in PVE (I take that char to an occasional bg or ic run, it’s built for PVE) who doesn’t have super high health and relies on this as a burst heal? I mean aside from the fact that to actually stun someone I have to spam it, as it only gives a chance to stun, person has to be hit with it what, 3 times? And that would totally drain my magicka at 3564 mag a pop, if I am in PVP it’s not like someone doesn’t have the opportunity to throw up a damage shield or roll out of the way before it stuns or does any significant damage.

    The heal over time is 643 every one second for 5 seconds so not that much, while throwing 1642 dmg per second for 4 seconds, again, not that much. The appeal to me is the burst heal, and all of my chars are able to heal while doing damage in some form or another. I hesitate to list them given the circumstances. I would have rather the negligible amount of damage be reduced in some way or another than the heal, or have a version that stuns without the heal as a morph.

    I’ve been killed by quite a few wardens while playing other characters and none of them killed me with artic blast. They were more experienced players or outnumbered me and even if I’m on a more PvP centered build I fully expect to die under those circumstances, not salty about it at all.
    Edited by confettibae on April 24, 2021 9:36PM
  • xaraan
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    As a player that plays warden tank a lot, it's not that bad of a nerf. Justified.
    -- @xaraan --
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  • MurderMostFoul
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    Wing wrote: »

    fair point, could you math out how much it was overperforming to receive a 20% nerf?

    25% ->

    1.25 x 0.8 = 1
    Edited by MurderMostFoul on April 24, 2021 11:24PM
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Wing
    Wing
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    25% ->

    1.25 x 0.8 = 1

    thank you for showing your work, for my own benefit :D
    ESO player since beta.
    previously full time subscriber, beta-2024, game got too disappointing.
    PC NA
    ( ^_^ )

    You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods -Xenogears
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  • Yellow_Monolith
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    I say nerf wardens again, remove the aoe delayed stun
  • RedFireDisco
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    Brrrofski wrote: »

    Not saying you're lying...

    But it's more than that even when not in heavy.

    Also, Rally doesn't tick anymore, it's just a burst, so not sure when the last time you used rally is and when you even played pvp last...

    Edit: just tried it in pvp.

    Imperial, 27.5k health with 2% in healing received CP and 7 medium (so no boost from heavy) I get a 4.8k heal non proc, away from a keep.

    It takes 6 seconds for Rally to heal that much.

    Soothing spores heals for 5179.

    Have 4.8k weapon damage.

    Keep in mind this is in no proc cyrodiil as well, so no crazy sets, just raw stats. No heavy, no keep healing passive, no extra healing modifiers at all. Cba putting all heavy on to try.

    In PVE it's 8309. So I think tanks, in heavy, often with more healing received in CP and some sets having it, with way more than 27.5k health will be fine, even after the nerf (which will apply to base, not after multipliers).

    Meant vigor
  • RedFireDisco
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    People seem to not understand the problem with Arctic Blast.

    Mainly it’s a direct heal with an additional heal over time effect.

    BUT on top of that

    ... it deals AoE damage
    ... it applies an AoE stun
    ... it applies AoE Chill
    ... which further increases Warden‘s damage

    How can y’all not see that this skill is completely overloaded in what it does and on top of that it does that all on multiple targets at once. Like honestly.

    I agree

    It does a lot of things and none of them particularly well. Could've removed some of them

  • blistb16_ESO
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    Polar wind will become useless in pvp since you will need 60k HP to do the same healing than other burst heal in the game. The heal was too strong before the free 1k damage. Now it's fine, and they nerf it for a reason that doesn't exist anymore. Well done.
  • Brrrofski
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    Meant vigor

    Vigor on that spec healed for 1980 per tick.

    Plus people just stack them. Nobody uses one or the other.
    Edited by Brrrofski on April 26, 2021 7:13AM
  • Anonx31st
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    I disagree. Tanks shouldn't be able to heal as much (or DPS). There needs to be more of a dependency on healers in this game since it is a MMO that uses the holy trinity.
  • Samadhi
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    It's definitely fair.

    Personally, I'd give up the stun just to see the healing reduced by 10% instead of 20%.

    I don't even use the Stun morph because I like being able to play a tanky healer; like a Paladin build

    *shrug*

    this game is constantly changing the gameplay experience for better or for worse, if need be will play a different class or something, but I think even post nerf Warden has the best capacity for this role
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Samadhi
    Samadhi
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    Anonx31st wrote: »
    I disagree. Tanks shouldn't be able to heal as much (or DPS). There needs to be more of a dependency on healers in this game since it is a MMO that uses the holy trinity.

    I've always viewed "the trinity" as including the Tank having capacity to keep themselves alive while the healer is putting out group or single buffs on the tank and keeping the dps alive

    personally I would have dropped out the damage of the skill, or made it not scale on HP builds instead of damage stats anymore

    and maybe even removed the damage over time effect from the multi-heal morph; it would be nice to be able to use this skill to keep alive while helping people Hard Mode the Crypt of Hearts 2 without risk of killing the ghosts in the process
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Anonx31st
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    Samadhi wrote: »

    I've always viewed "the trinity" as including the Tank having capacity to keep themselves alive while the healer is putting out group or single buffs on the tank and keeping the dps alive

    personally I would have dropped out the damage of the skill, or made it not scale on HP builds instead of damage stats anymore

    and maybe even removed the damage over time effect from the multi-heal morph; it would be nice to be able to use this skill to keep alive while helping people Hard Mode the Crypt of Hearts 2 without risk of killing the ghosts in the process

    Over the years in MMO's that use the holy trinity, tanks were keeping themselves alive through damage mitigation not heals. Heals is the healers job.
  • Samadhi
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    Anonx31st wrote: »

    Over the years in MMO's that use the holy trinity, tanks were keeping themselves alive through damage mitigation not heals. Heals is the healers job.

    Again, as someone who has played Paladins in other MMOs I am used to having a tanky character with heal skills going back roughly 15 years of various titles

    Similar with playing a Cleric or Paladin in D&D -- tend to be tanky with self heals, ability to do damage exists but is mitigated by spell slots (tabletop) or cooldowns (other MMOs)

    ZOS having no cooldown on their skills does a lot to break the fundamentals of the trinity as it is because healers can toss heals until they run out of resources, and DPS rotation is fixed based on the duration of effects, rather than the timer on being able to cast the skill again
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Sangwyne
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    Dracane wrote: »
    [snip] If Zenimax would have actually compared all heals on different classes with the same health and damage stats, they would have found that Arctic Wind already was the weakest burst heal in the game. Only underpassed by the likes of Combat Prayer.

    [Edited for Baiting]
    Polar wind will become useless in pvp since you will need 60k HP to do the same healing than other burst heal in the game. The heal was too strong before the free 1k damage. Now it's fine, and they nerf it for a reason that doesn't exist anymore. Well done.

    I keep saying this to anyone who will listen, but if you really claim that Arctic Blast is "the weakest burst heal in the game" then I'm sure you wouldn't object to trading it for GDB, even after the nerf. It's like when Necro mains complained that their execute nerf was going to gut the class when it was topping damage charts; like sheesh, DK doesn't even have an execute, being a little overdramatic here.
    rumple9 wrote: »
    Used to be my favourite class but it's awful now

    I fail to see how a 17-20% nerf to just the healing on a skill that damages, stuns, burst heals, procs passives and heals over time renders the entire class "awful" when Warden was by far the most busted class in PvP. Again, I'll trade you any DK skill you like for Netch, Shimmering Shield, Subterranean Assault, Gripping Shards, or Arctic Blast, even after the nerf. Take your pick, we've got, uh, hmm... Leap? Yeah, that's about it.
  • LightYagami
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    Jeffrey530 wrote: »
    Roll a warden and go play battleground, you'll see why this nerf is needed.

    Not only BGs, but also Cyrodiil. (Stam) Wardens perform much better than many other classes in PvP.
    No improvement on Cyrodill servers -> no ESO plus renewal.
  • Ceejengine
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    Why does an AoE damage + CC even heal in the first place? I love my warden build and I will love it after this fix.

    Wayyy too strong.
  • Samadhi
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    Ceejengine wrote: »
    Why does an AoE damage + CC even heal in the first place? I love my warden build and I will love it after this fix.

    Wayyy too strong.

    Seem to recall it being a heal first, maybe heal + damage
    it used to be a skill where it was a single target stun as well as a heal

    it makes more snes as a heal in the Warden toolkit tho -- there is already Gripping Shards as an AoE damage + CC skill that does damage scaling based on health
    having damage or CC effects on a heal skill does not make a lot of snes, but seem to recall ZOS having some sort of "point" system where they add or subtract effects from skills based on how much points the skill totals up to, then consider the skills balanced based on if their points match up rather than based on what actual effects it has

    Am just not certain why the heal is being decreased of all directions to take with this skill
    remove the damage over time effect, and leave tanks with a powerful burst heal rather than having us constantly activating a heal skill every 5 seconds regardless of how much damage we have taken, in order to keep our DPS count up because this game is all about DPSing as fast as you can

    tone the Stun back down to the single-target it was before,
    make it so the damage no longer scales off of Health stat so players who want to use it have to choose between a good self heal (keep the heal based on Health) or damage output
    stop messing with my heals tho QQ
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • Sangwyne
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    More like "Massive Warden Nerf Way Overdue". It's far past time for the best PvP class in the game to receive some adjustments, and far past time for the same people abusing the class to stop defending it in its completely busted state.

    It would be nice for other classes to finally be viable. No, Necro doesn't count.
  • RedFireDisco
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    Sangwyne wrote: »
    More like "Massive Warden Nerf Way Overdue". It's far past time for the best PvP class in the game to receive some adjustments, and far past time for the same people abusing the class to stop defending it in its completely busted state.

    It would be nice for other classes to finally be viable. No, Necro doesn't count.

    I'd rather give buffs to those classes, well, except sorc
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    Samadhi wrote: »

    Seem to recall it being a heal first, maybe heal + damage
    it used to be a skill where it was a single target stun as well as a heal

    it makes more snes as a heal in the Warden toolkit tho -- there is already Gripping Shards as an AoE damage + CC skill that does damage scaling based on health
    having damage or CC effects on a heal skill does not make a lot of snes, but seem to recall ZOS having some sort of "point" system where they add or subtract effects from skills based on how much points the skill totals up to, then consider the skills balanced based on if their points match up rather than based on what actual effects it has

    Am just not certain why the heal is being decreased of all directions to take with this skill
    remove the damage over time effect, and leave tanks with a powerful burst heal rather than having us constantly activating a heal skill every 5 seconds regardless of how much damage we have taken, in order to keep our DPS count up because this game is all about DPSing as fast as you can

    tone the Stun back down to the single-target it was before,
    make it so the damage no longer scales off of Health stat so players who want to use it have to choose between a good self heal (keep the heal based on Health) or damage output
    stop messing with my heals tho QQ

    It doesn't really make sense as a heal at all considering that Wardens literally have an entire Green Balance dedicated healing skill tree in their class kit.

    ZOS really should have kept the clear thematic delineation and stashed all of the healing abilities in there.
  • Samadhi
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    It doesn't really make sense as a heal at all considering that Wardens literally have an entire Green Balance dedicated healing skill tree in their class kit.

    ZOS really should have kept the clear thematic delineation and stashed all of the healing abilities in there.

    to be fair, the skill lines were never that great at being based on damage/healing/tanking, or else it would be on me to point out that a skill that self-heals and applies the Chilled effect for a Maim that reduces damage enemies do makes consistent sense in the tank skill line while a damage over time effect does not really; the AoE stun arguably fits the idea of tanks locking down enemies/groups of enemies

    but then it starts to be questions of things like why there are defensive buffs or skills dedicated to resource regeneration in the damage (Animal Companions) tree

    ZOS did at one point have more of a distinction to the skill trees, when they also had more distinction to the classes (Remember when playing Dragonknight was the only way to have a tank class with a Chains skill?)

    in accord with the implication you make tho -- would be perfectly glad to see the heal dropped from Arctic Wind entirely and see Living Vines scale with Health Stat and provide a more meaningful burst heal based around that stat
    but I'm pretty sure the skill was designed with the intent of the Healer applying it to the tank, rather than having the Tank reliably self-apply like Arctic Wind has done
    "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
    Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
  • ESO_Nightingale
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    Samadhi wrote: »

    to be fair, the skill lines were never that great at being based on damage/healing/tanking, or else it would be on me to point out that a skill that self-heals and applies the Chilled effect for a Maim that reduces damage enemies do makes consistent sense in the tank skill line while a damage over time effect does not really; the AoE stun arguably fits the idea of tanks locking down enemies/groups of enemies

    but then it starts to be questions of things like why there are defensive buffs or skills dedicated to resource regeneration in the damage (Animal Companions) tree

    ZOS did at one point have more of a distinction to the skill trees, when they also had more distinction to the classes (Remember when playing Dragonknight was the only way to have a tank class with a Chains skill?)

    in accord with the implication you make tho -- would be perfectly glad to see the heal dropped from Arctic Wind entirely and see Living Vines scale with Health Stat and provide a more meaningful burst heal based around that stat
    but I'm pretty sure the skill was designed with the intent of the Healer applying it to the tank, rather than having the Tank reliably self-apply like Arctic Wind has done

    I think it's fine to keep arctic wind and polar wind as health based tank heals. But arctic blast does not need this because it really needs to focus on the damage and stun portions. The healing for pvp dps should absolutely just be in green balance.
    PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
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