On fake tanks and healers..

GreenHere

Greevir wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Kicking doesn't really help because they just queue up again to harass another group.

Not kicking is what does not help. It stands to reason that if fake tanks were kicked with regularity the practice would pretty much die out. Not kicking is accepting the practice.

In my short tenure here I have been in two groups where we kicked the fake tank. In both cases during my short tenure here we were able to finish the dungeon without the fake tank. In one case we invited a tank to join us.

As I gain more experience in ESO I will build an alt spec so I can fill that role if needed after kicking a fake tank.

Proving that "real tanks" aren't needed. So how is having a "fake tank" so detrimental that they need to be kicked?

By signing up to be the tank, you signed up to be the person that keeps bosses from wailing on allies while they are trying to do their thing. If you don't do even that most basic aspect of what you agreed to by clicking that little "I'm a tank!" icon, you... Well, I'm not allowed to say it on the forums. Suffice to say, it's largely about the lack of respect and cooperation that's implicit in the disingenuous selecting of your role. The two DPS players you got matched with waited their turn legitimately, while you cut in line to get an instant match if you're a truly fake tank. Kind of a *** move, ya know?



*"You"s used in this comment are meant as the figurative, royal "you" to refer to any applicable people in abstract, not targeting anyone in particular. Offer void where prohibited, some side effects may vary.

DarcyMardin

I was inadvertently a fake healer in a random normal yesterday, even though I was fully equipped and ready to heal. I was on a low level alt (not yet eligible for pledges) and doing the quest when everybody else ran ahead and took a shortcut to skip a bunch of mobs that I didn’t even realize you could skip. (So sue me...I never skip mobs). As I was trying to figure out the shortcut, I accidentally fell among those skipped mobs and had to fight off and kill about 20 of them alone. By the time I was about to race after my group, they were fighting the next boss and kicked me.

Not complaining about being kicked since they weren’t getting any heals from me. But was again reminded why I rarely use the random group finder, even for the crystals perk. I hate groups that speed-run the dungeon, leaving low levels who need the quest and the skill point choking in their dust.

Adaarye

I have three healers. Necro, Warden, and Templar. I have no tanks. I have tons of DPS whom I only queue as DPS, if I queue them at all. If I do, I wait in queue while gathering, crafting, questing, etc. Doesn't bother me at all. For the most part, I only run my healers in Dungeons. I'm pushing 1200 CP.

The only reason I do dungeons at all is for transmutes.

That said, I wasted hours over the last two days in dungeons that couldn't be completed due to what I call "false queueing". I did get to tank Selene .. not by choice. I didn't enjoy it at all.

If I hadn't invested $$$$ in housing, between the nerfs, the destruction of Cyrodil, and the badly designed queueing system, I would quit the game period. As it stands, my ESO may become all about housing, trading and overland for me. Despite my investment, the situation doesn't make for long term customer retention.

Once I have my gear as I like it for all 18 of my characters, I don't intend to do dungeons at all except for new or needed content.

I hate the queueing system, because of it's lack of proper filtering, that much.

GreenHere

DarcyMardin wrote: »

I was inadvertently a fake healer in a random normal yesterday, even though I was fully equipped and ready to heal. I was on a low level alt (not yet eligible for pledges) and doing the quest when everybody else ran ahead and took a shortcut to skip a bunch of mobs that I didn’t even realize you could skip. (So sue me...I never skip mobs). As I was trying to figure out the shortcut, I accidentally fell among those skipped mobs and had to fight off and kill about 20 of them alone. By the time I was about to race after my group, they were fighting the next boss and kicked me.

Not complaining about being kicked since they weren’t getting any heals from me. But was again reminded why I rarely use the random group finder, even for the crystals perk. I hate groups that speed-run the dungeon, leaving low levels who need the quest and the skill point choking in their dust.

For whatever it's worth, and to be fair to you, I feel like people in your situation are the exception. If you're really low level, and you can't really perform your role all that well yet, you get a pass.

One, just for empathy's sake; "c'mon, they're low level, cut 'em some slack," right? But also your presence guaranteed one of the easiest dungeons for the whole group, so you sort of inadvertently made one of the biggest contributions possible by that alone. :P

I'm just some goober on the interwebs, so it's not like I'm an authority here... but nonetheless: You hereby get a pass from the fake role persecution! (in these specific circumstances, at least)

I'm sure a lot of reasonable people who otherwise despise inconsiderate fakers feel the same way. Just apparently not the *** you got matched up with, haha.

redsaaryn

Wasn't the game made so that any class can do any role? This suggestion sounds foolish, specially when me as a night blade can literally tank any boss/world boss with my build and just lost 3% of my damage which can change from a -3% to a +15% when I turn into a werewolf

Adaarye

So basically, what I am reading here is that "high end" dps wearing the pale order ring is edging healers out of high end content?

Is that why I can't seem to score a decent vet run anymore?

I'm not asking to bait. I'm asking because this is a genuine concern.

I love wearing the pale order ring while doing solo content on my dps. I'd never dream of wearing pale order in a trial or dungeon.

If this is the case, it should be addressed.

Merforum

Adaarye wrote: »

So basically, what I am reading here is that "high end" dps wearing the pale order ring is edging healers out of high end content?

Is that why I can't seem to score a decent vet run anymore?

I'm not asking to bait. I'm asking because this is a genuine concern.

I love wearing the pale order ring while doing solo content on my dps. I'd never dream of wearing pale order in a trial or dungeon.

If this is the case, it should be addressed.

Yup that is exactly the case. Pale order change is probably the best new change coming, where for solo it is 20% buffed, 4 man 8% nerf enough to not make healers useless, 5 or more 0% can't use in trials. It is really good change and I wish they'd do something like that with Thrassian and revert to old values.

So I think the intentions are good, but since most changes are only to help PVPers, it might be designed to let them be able to to do vet solo arenas easier which they usually can't do.

DarcyMardin

GreenHere wrote: »

DarcyMardin wrote: »

I was inadvertently a fake healer in a random normal yesterday, even though I was fully equipped and ready to heal. I was on a low level alt (not yet eligible for pledges) and doing the quest when everybody else ran ahead and took a shortcut to skip a bunch of mobs that I didn’t even realize you could skip. (So sue me...I never skip mobs). As I was trying to figure out the shortcut, I accidentally fell among those skipped mobs and had to fight off and kill about 20 of them alone. By the time I was about to race after my group, they were fighting the next boss and kicked me.

Not complaining about being kicked since they weren’t getting any heals from me. But was again reminded why I rarely use the random group finder, even for the crystals perk. I hate groups that speed-run the dungeon, leaving low levels who need the quest and the skill point choking in their dust.

For whatever it's worth, and to be fair to you, I feel like people in your situation are the exception. If you're really low level, and you can't really perform your role all that well yet, you get a pass.

One, just for empathy's sake; "c'mon, they're low level, cut 'em some slack," right? But also your presence guaranteed one of the easiest dungeons for the whole group, so you sort of inadvertently made one of the biggest contributions possible by that alone. :P

I'm just some goober on the interwebs, so it's not like I'm an authority here... but nonetheless: You hereby get a pass from the fake role persecution! (in these specific circumstances, at least)

I'm sure a lot of reasonable people who otherwise despise inconsiderate fakers feel the same way. Just apparently not the *** you got matched up with, haha.

Thanks! And yeah, I was thinking the same thing — cut me some slack, guys...you only got this easy dungeon because I ended up in your group. I’m a real healer, reasonably geared and skilled for an under 50 and with 700+ champion points assigned. I can keep you alive *if* I can catch up to you.

SkorosMindkiller

jle30303 wrote: »

Fake tanks are another issue. I wonder if a solution would be: cannot queue as Tank unless Health is the stat in which you have invested the most actual stat points, out of the 1-3 per level that you get, maxing out at 64 at level 50. You might play as a hybrid (health and one stat both mid-range and throw some damage into the mix) or a full tank (nearly all health with 0-10 points in other stats), but you gotta actually *build* a tank to queue as one.

No, that's crap too. After CP 2.0, I took most of them out of HP and now stand at 22/20/22, and use Senche-Tiger Single Malt. On my DK tank that was built as a tank from level 1, all the way through VR14. Buffed or unbuffed resists (depending on gear set) are near or exceed cap, and I had no problem tanking in vCR last week.

EDIT: Or 5 axes in vAA.

jle30303

Also, a controversial thought: There was a post a while back, where people said they kicked a fake tank... but then finished the dungeon without getting a replacement. If you can three-man a given dungeon without a tank, you don't need to care if the tank is fake, so there's no good reason to kick him. Likewise if the healer is really a non-healing third DD, but you can complete the dungeon with that combination and not die, you don't need to care if the healer is fake.

But the trouble comes in that (a) there's a good amount of content, especially at veteran levels, where you really DO need a real one - certainly a real tank and probably a real healer, or at least a hybrid healer/DD: and (b) it also depends on group makeup, some DDs are more in need of a real support-role than others: and also (c) the game doesn't itself discriminate between levels of difficulty of various dungeons, but could give you anything from Fungal Grotto to, say, Stone Garden or Lair of Maarselok...

Which incidentally is one of the reasons almost nobody does random *veteran*. Trying to PUG for a specific veteran dungeon, at least gives you the chance that the entire group may actually have queued for that specific dungeon and may know the mechanics and be powerful enough to handle them: doing a random veteran PUG is likely to end in disaster if it turns out that nobody knows the mechanics. Not least because veterans avoid random PUG veterans so you're likely to get ONLY people who are new to veteran-level, or may be queueing for veteran because "look, I've got CP, how hard can this be, veteran is for people who have CP" and couldn't actually stab their way out of a wet paper bag even if they did learn the mechanics. (Twice during Undaunted week I tanked for groups who crashed and burned at the second boss in Fungal 2 because they didn't have the dps to take out even one Shadow Tormentor between them, or the tactical nous to even just focus on one, despite being 810 CP: at the third attempt I went hybrid, slotted more damaging skills and did the job myself, and ended up taking out the final boss with only the healer for company since both DDs died in the first half minute. We got hard mode as well (!) but the run took two hours.)

And THIS in turn goes back to the fact that, without much damage-dealing ability, actually doing enough overland on a tank or healer to level up is a pain in the asterisk. That's a major answer to the people who say "Overland is too easy": It has to be manageable for not just a newbie who doesn't know much of game mechanics, but a newbie who's trying to level up a lower-damage role like a tank or healer. Because if you can't do that, you're going to get a huge deficit of people playing support roles, simply because... most players ARE casual enough to only play one toon, perhaps two, and if that one toon is always a DD, then you'll end up with a natural shortage of tanks and healers at the best of times, so the only solution is that it has to be tolerable for newbies to level up and grow into the tank or healer role with their first character because it will be their only character, so overland *has* to be pretty easy.

ElliottXO

Erelah wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

There is no fix to this other than increasing group size to 5. Which for balancing reasons will never happen. Thread closed.

The answer to people lying about their role to enter into a dungeon is not increasing the number needed. It is people realizing it is a low bar to be honest in a video game. The proposed increased it to five would not prevent people from lying and claiming to be a role they would not. Just more could do so per dungeon.

5 people means 3 DPS per group. I'm sure you can figure out what that means for waiting times and therefore the need of DPS to fake other roles.

And I'm not proposing it. I'm just saying there is hardly any other way to stop abuse.

And four people per dungeon means 2 DPS per dungeon. Oh wait sometimes there is three or even four with fake tanks and fake healers. Your proposal is if we increase the number to five per dungeon nobody will ever be a fake tank or healer and the problem will be solved. Everything in life has taught me that will not be the result.

I didn't say it will eliminate fake roles. But do you want to argue that a lower waiting time for DPS would have no positive impact on amount of fake roles? Bold statement.

And again, I'm not proposing 5 group members due to balancing nightmare of all content.

jane_01215

What I suggest is to implement role-based reporting and ban system. For example when you see tank or healer in your group not properly playing their role, you report them for it and the person who accumulated certain number of such reports shouldn't be able to queue for that role for certain amount of time.

MoreTune

When I queue on my main tank (fully geared yolnahkrin and powerful assault, aka buffing group dps by a lot) I get dps who enter veteran dungeons with sword and board lol. I give it one pull and if the first boss takes more than 2 minutes. I try and vote kick or I leave and take the additional 8 minute penalty. Mostly I try and form a custom group when I’m on my tank.

When I queue as a fake tank on my dps (only fake tank normal dungeons) I either solo carry the dungeon within 5 minutes. Or get kicked and requeue.

The second option is always better for me and less stressful than watching a sword and board dps in a vet dungeon.

spartaxoxo

jle30303 wrote: »

Fake tanks are another issue. I wonder if a solution would be: cannot queue as Tank unless Health is the stat in which you have invested the most actual stat points, out of the 1-3 per level that you get, maxing out at 64 at level 50. You might play as a hybrid (health and one stat both mid-range and throw some damage into the mix) or a full tank (nearly all health with 0-10 points in other stats), but you gotta actually *build* a tank to queue as one.

NO WAY. There are so many people who can easily tank whatever they are queued for without needing to build this way. It can be as simple as slotting a taunt and maybe a monster helm or skill if it's dlc, and that last part is a big maybe.

As long as tank is holding the boss and dangerous adds, nothing else matters to fulfilling the role. If you want a good tank, make a premade.

Agenericname

jane_01215 wrote: »

What I suggest is to implement role-based reporting and ban system. For example when you see tank or healer in your group not properly playing their role, you report them for it and the person who accumulated certain number of such reports shouldn't be able to queue for that role for certain amount of time.

Would you also be able to report a DD? If not, then you are targeting tanks and healers unfairly. If yes, it would be abused. That would not end well.

What youre suggesting, in essence, if for ZOS to allow to players to lock other players out of content. I doubt that will ever happen. I can control whether or not you play with me, but I have no control over your ability to queue with other players. Thats the way it needs to stay.

jane_01215

Agenericname wrote: »

Would you also be able to report a DD? If not, then you are targeting tanks and healers unfairly. If yes, it would be abused. That would not end well.

Of course, if there is a role reporting system, it should apply to all roles equally, not just to support roles but also to damage dealers.

Agenericname wrote: »

What youre suggesting, in essence, if for ZOS to allow to players to lock other players out of content. I doubt that will ever happen. I can control whether or not you play with me, but I have no control over your ability to queue with other players. Thats the way it needs to stay.

I kind of disagree. There will be people who randomly report others just for fun or for whatever reason but they should be rare. So someone can get 1 or 2 random reports but if he or she get many of them, say 5, while majority of others don't even get one, that suggests something is wrong with that person. It's not single person controlling others' ability to queue for certain role, it's the player community who is controlling some people's ability.
And, of course, people can always form a full group and that should allow them playing whatever role even if they are banned for that.

LavenderShadow

I always queue for the role that I am, although most of my friends don't.
Maybe someone has already said this but I have four CP1500+ healers that I run though random normals multiple times each week. I set up my primary bar as heals (orbs, CP, Radiating Regen, shards if plar) and my back bar as all damage. That way i can respond to whatever the group needs. Last night I had one group that was able to run through Icereach quickly and only needed me to do damage and another group that was all under CP25 and needed heals and damage. Gotta adapt, right? I find that 80-90% of the time players are wearing the pale order ring anyway but they still DO appreciate me giving them orbs. When I run my DD's through random normals, it would be nice to get an occasional orbs, but most of the healers in dungeons groups I am paired with, don't. I did receive a few shards from someone last night...don't have to have it but it is still nice!