On fake tanks and healers..

vivisectvib16_ESO

ZOS needs to modify the group finder so that, as a DPS, you shouldn't be allowed to set your role to healer or tank unless you have at least unlocked/slotted a skill that can group heal or can taunt on your skill bar.

I don't mind if you're a DPS who really wants to get your pledges/random done.. we've all been there.. the DPS queue is AWFUL. But, if you're going to queue as a fake tank or a fake healer, you should at least go to the effort of unlocking a taunt (Undaunted Inner Fire) or getting a Resto staff and some heal skills and at least TRY to play the role.

I'm tired of selfish DPS coming into these queues and creating a literal cluster-F of a dungeon run because they're just too lazy to at least try to play the role they've queued for.

I'm also sick and tired of hearing things like "WELL YOU SHOULDN'T NEED A TANK OR A HEALER" ..I do not care if it's Normal or Vet ..not everyone plays this game the same way. Not everyone wants to run through at breakneck speed. Some folks are doing the quest. Some folks want the XP grind. Some folks want to farm chests. Some folks are low level and it's their first time in a given dungeon, and you STILL get these jerks who act like it's everyone should put up with their entitled nonsense, just because.

DtOG

They really need to fix the queue for dps. Half hour to hour wait times 7 years in is horrendous.

zvavi

A resto staff is not needed to heal normals, I healed from level 10 to 50 when leveling my necro with spirit mender + burst heal without anyone dying...

Lintashi

If the skill is just unlocked, or even slotted, is not the guarantee, that it will actually be used in dungeon. I play as healer, but I have dps setup, with nothing but self heals. My friend who is tank does the same. We queue with our respective roles, and while we are waiting for damage dealers, we quest and do other things in damage dealing gear. Once inside, we get proper sets equipped, and do our jobs properly. Forcing people to stay in tanking/healing sets all the time, in case the guild or friend asks them to help, is terrible idea, that just gatekeeps people. Also if 3 people want breakneck run, and you do not, maybe it is you, who should leave, not them. Most normals go fine without healer or tank indeed. And I really hope you do not even tried to do quests in veteran dungeons, because it is blatant disrespect to other players.

Viewsfrom6ix

Are you complaining about fake roles or speed runners? Cuz real tanks can also speed run.

Regardless what you're complaining about. The current system solves this problem except for one scenario.

A dungeon group is made of four players. If 3 players are rushing through the dungeon with a fake tank/healer and you're going slowly. You're the minority of the group and shouldn't complain and vice versa when 3 players are going slow and 1 speed runner. The vote kick option is there for the 3 players to kick the 1 player who isn't playing along with the group.

The scenario it doesn't solve is 2 and 2. The 2 players going slow will have to conform to the 2 players going fast. Unfortunately that is how it is and we all have to deal with it and move on.

GF is merely a tool to quickly create a group and the roles are suggestions.

VaranisArano

How are you planning to deal with the DD who slots Inner Fire to queue as a tank, and then unslots it once they hit the dungeon?

heartburnkid

I prefer a fake tank/healer if they can burn.

tmbrinks

Is it that time of the month for this thread again already?

Nastassiya

Kicking people is always an option. I'm a very low dps, high armor, and resistance tank. I never queued DPS and I was shocked and confused when people asked me if I was an actual tank. Just kick and punish people that queue as the wrong class. You all are as much at fault as the person you allow to do it.

I get instant queue's when I look for a dungeon so that just says not enough of you want to play a tank class.

Amottica

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS needs to modify the group finder so that, as a DPS, you shouldn't be allowed to set your role to healer or tank unless you have at least unlocked/slotted a skill that can group heal or can taunt on your skill bar.

I saw this very suggestion made in a different thread. A reply pointed out how ineffective it is since someone can just change the skill once the queue pops.

It made sense because it is so easy to gain access to a taunt. I do not see it being helpful it is to have a "tank" that has access to a taunt but will not use it.

In one group where we had a fake tank I had commented (as the healer) that the boss needs to know I am not the tank. To which the "tank" said I can show you how much damage you are doing as though they were carrying the group. Just before the final boss we voted to kick them and brought in a tank. Basically, we robbed him of clearing a dungeon but also it seems easier to find a tank outside of the GF.

trackdemon5512

tmbrinks wrote: »

Is it that time of the month for this thread again already?

It would seem so LOL.

I now actively teach people how to “fake tank” within my guilds. Lower leveled players at that. I find a lot of “real tanks” that just use cookie cutter Ebon and Alkosh not realizing that they’re either outdated or unneeded.

Proper “fake tanks” make for better “real tanks” later as they train themselves to identify mechanics, avoid them, and survive.

Every dungeon can be completed with a mag dps back barring an ice staff and using caltrops. The majority of them don’t even require taunts now on normal. Even vet DLC dungeons can be done this way. I routinely run vet Fang Lair as a “fake tank” and everything can be easily cleared.

Agenericname

DtOG wrote: »

They really need to fix the queue for dps. Half hour to hour wait times 7 years in is horrendous.

Its only that long for DDs, and when the queue is broken. So, technically, half the group enjoys a near instant queue time.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Is it that time of the month for this thread again already?

Weekly now it seems.

Ackwalan

1 skill point put into puncture, and they are back in queue as a tank with no intention of being a tank.

Zodiarkslayer

tmbrinks wrote: »

Is it that time of the month for this thread again already?

I think the gap in between gets smaller everytime...

But seriously it is one of the biggest Issues in the Game and with its Community.
One half is suffering from it and the other is exploiting it.

Had a fake tank rusher in Imperial City Prison last night. Rushing fake tank? Nevermind. That guy managed to lock his entire group from a Boss fight TWICE, just by rushing ahead and starting the fight so that the doors closed.

TWICE!

One guy fighting, three guys locked out. And the others didn't even wanted to kick him!

Zodiarkslayer

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Is it that time of the month for this thread again already?

It would seem so LOL.

I now actively teach people how to “fake tank” within my guilds. Lower leveled players at that. I find a lot of “real tanks” that just use cookie cutter Ebon and Alkosh not realizing that they’re either outdated or unneeded.

Proper “fake tanks” make for better “real tanks” later as they train themselves to identify mechanics, avoid them, and survive.

Every dungeon can be completed with a mag dps back barring an ice staff and using caltrops. The majority of them don’t even require taunts now on normal. Even vet DLC dungeons can be done this way. I routinely run vet Fang Lair as a “fake tank” and everything can be easily cleared.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Darkstorne

zvavi wrote: »

A resto staff is not needed to heal normals, I healed from level 10 to 50 when leveling my necro with spirit mender + burst heal without anyone dying...

And that's totally fine, since you still healed. It's the fake healers with zero heals and group buffs who are the problem, and the fake tanks without taunts/disables/pulls. No-one should mind if a healer isn't using a resto staff, or a tank doesn't have a shield.

I main a 2H Sword-wielding StamSorc healer, just because the game lets me. SPC, Powerful Assault, and Sentinel of Rkugamz. I hug the tank and keep Ring of Preservation and Echoing Vigor up at all times, with Twilight Matriarch as my panic heal. Brawler to deal AOE damage against trash while keeping myself shielded. Tank gets LOADS of extra resource generation from Ring of Preservation and Sentinel of Rkugamz. DPS get a 700 point boost to their weapon and spell damage.

Dungeons are so damn fast and smooth when I get an actual tank in the group, and painful with a fake DPS who thinks their leet damage is genuinely more useful than a tank who can keep a boss taunted and keep trash locked and pulled to a single stacked location for AOE fun times. And it just annoys me that they think they're important enough to skip the queue while the other two DPS waited in line. Maybe it's because I'm British, but skipping queues is like chiselling "I'm a ****" into your forehead for the whole world to know about it.

Nastassiya

Darkstorne wrote: »

And it just annoys me that they think they're important enough to skip the queue while the other two DPS waited in line. Maybe it's because I'm British, but skipping queues is like chiselling "I'm a ****" into your forehead for the whole world to know about it.

We only skip the queue because there are not enough actual tanks to support the amount of DPS looking for a group. It's not about importance; it's about the amount of tanks in in need to support. It's literally just numbers.

Girl_Number8

The horse left and Patrick kindly stepped in....

GreenHere

Nastassiya wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

And it just annoys me that they think they're important enough to skip the queue while the other two DPS waited in line. Maybe it's because I'm British, but skipping queues is like chiselling "I'm a ****" into your forehead for the whole world to know about it.

We only skip the queue because there are not enough actual tanks to support the amount of DPS looking for a group. It's not about importance; it's about the amount of tanks in in need to support. It's literally just numbers.

That's... literally the definition of self-importance. "You" (the royal you, not targeting you specifically) don't want to wait in the queue like all the other DPS, so you can just change a little icon in the group finder window to essentially lie your way into a quicker dungeon match. If you don't intend to perform even the barest minimum of the role you agreed to (which is generally very minimal in normals, it should be noted) then you're not supporting your team, you're disrespecting others who queue honestly and in-good-faith.

Now if you slot (and actually use) a taunt to keep bosses still, or a heal to keep allies vertical, then it's really not so bad. That kind of makes you a real...ish tank/healer, which usually isn't what's being discussed in these threads. But a disturbingly large portion of people who skip queue by falsely signing up as support roles make precisely 0 effort to support their team -- NO taunt, NO heals. They are "the problem", and somehow folks always seem to find some form of mental gymnastics to deny this basic principle. Doing it the way they do it is literally lying and shirking "responsibility" (I know it's just a game, but c'mon) that they disingenuously signed up for.


Again, I'm talking about the figurative, non-specific "you"... not targeting @Nastassiya or anyone else.

vivisectvib16_ESO

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

Are you complaining about fake roles or speed runners? Cuz real tanks can also speed run.

Regardless what you're complaining about. The current system solves this problem except for one scenario.

A dungeon group is made of four players. If 3 players are rushing through the dungeon with a fake tank/healer and you're going slowly. You're the minority of the group and shouldn't complain and vice versa when 3 players are going slow and 1 speed runner. The vote kick option is there for the 3 players to kick the 1 player who isn't playing along with the group.

The scenario it doesn't solve is 2 and 2. The 2 players going slow will have to conform to the 2 players going fast. Unfortunately that is how it is and we all have to deal with it and move on.

GF is merely a tool to quickly create a group and the roles are suggestions.

I'm talking about people who queue for a role that they're not equipped to perform and then expect the rest of us to just deal with it. Believe it or not a lot of folks want to play in the group makeup that is suggested: 2 DPS, 1 tank and 1 heal. ..and VTK doesn't always work if you're with new people who don't necessarily know what this issue is.

ZOS_ConnorG

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Darkstorne

Nastassiya wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

And it just annoys me that they think they're important enough to skip the queue while the other two DPS waited in line. Maybe it's because I'm British, but skipping queues is like chiselling "I'm a ****" into your forehead for the whole world to know about it.

We only skip the queue because there are not enough actual tanks to support the amount of DPS looking for a group. It's not about importance; it's about the amount of tanks in in need to support. It's literally just numbers.

Oh! I SEEEEE! Thank you so much, I get it now. You're queuing as a fake tank for MY benefit! And here I thought you were just cutting the line in front of all the other DPS for your own benefit, despite the fact the rest of your group will now be forced to endure a dungeon without taunts and pulls to speed things along. No, clearly, without you queuing as a tank we'd be waiting forever for a real tank. THANK YOU SO MUCH. I won't mind the chaotic dungeon runs and trying to heal three squishy allies through boss fights ever again.

Rescorla_ESO

I queue random normal dungeons as DPS. I have been put in groups with fake tanks and fake healers but that hasn't stopped us from steamrolling thru the normal dungeon. I have run some of these older dungeons countless number of times. I have no desire to slow down the run. The normal dungeons are so trivial that running them with 4 DPS adds a little bit of challenge to them. If I need healing I will slot my Ring of Pale Order or a healing skill.

Nastassiya

Darkstorne wrote: »

Nastassiya wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

And it just annoys me that they think they're important enough to skip the queue while the other two DPS waited in line. Maybe it's because I'm British, but skipping queues is like chiselling "I'm a ****" into your forehead for the whole world to know about it.

We only skip the queue because there are not enough actual tanks to support the amount of DPS looking for a group. It's not about importance; it's about the amount of tanks in in need to support. It's literally just numbers.

Oh! I SEEEEE! Thank you so much, I get it now. You're queuing as a fake tank for MY benefit! And here I thought you were just cutting the line in front of all the other DPS for your own benefit, despite the fact the rest of your group will now be forced to endure a dungeon without taunts and pulls to speed things along. No, clearly, without you queuing as a tank we'd be waiting forever for a real tank. THANK YOU SO MUCH. I won't mind the chaotic dungeon runs and trying to heal three squishy allies through boss fights ever again.

Where did you get the idea that I queue as a fake tank? I'm 100% built as a tank: heavy armour, 35k self buffed resists, terrible DPS, taunt, charge, extra bash, self heal, mender, etc.

GreenHere

Nastassiya wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Nastassiya wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

And it just annoys me that they think they're important enough to skip the queue while the other two DPS waited in line. Maybe it's because I'm British, but skipping queues is like chiselling "I'm a ****" into your forehead for the whole world to know about it.

We only skip the queue because there are not enough actual tanks to support the amount of DPS looking for a group. It's not about importance; it's about the amount of tanks in in need to support. It's literally just numbers.

Oh! I SEEEEE! Thank you so much, I get it now. You're queuing as a fake tank for MY benefit! And here I thought you were just cutting the line in front of all the other DPS for your own benefit, despite the fact the rest of your group will now be forced to endure a dungeon without taunts and pulls to speed things along. No, clearly, without you queuing as a tank we'd be waiting forever for a real tank. THANK YOU SO MUCH. I won't mind the chaotic dungeon runs and trying to heal three squishy allies through boss fights ever again.

Where did you get the idea that I queue as a fake tank? I'm 100% built as a tank: heavy armour, 35k self buffed resists, terrible DPS, taunt, charge, extra bash, self heal, mender, etc.

Probably the part of your above comment where you said "We only skip the queue because...", lol. I admit, your comment also gave me the distinct impression that you were on the fake tanking side of the fence.

To be fair to @Darkstorne, I'm guessing that their comment is less about you in particular and more about the overall attitude that fakers often give that says something along the lines of "We're doing you a favor, so shut up!". Not saying you took that attitude, but you sort of indicated you might be in the camp that often gives that attitude when confronted about their choices. I've personally been told laughably hostile and horrible things in the in-game chat when I've asked fake tanks to slot a taunt to prevent bosses from running rampant in PUG runs, so I get why people can bristle when thinking they might be dealing with one of those folks.

Since you clarified that you're a real tank, probably just a misunderstanding; but their point still stands. The attitudes from fakers are frequently poor and deluded. Sarcasm and scorn is a pretty understandable response in the face of some of what I -- and many others -- have seen from fake tanks & healers.

Nastassiya

GreenHere wrote: »

Probably the part of your above comment where you said "We only skip the queue because...", lol. I admit, your comment also gave me the distinct impression that you were on the fake tanking side of the fence. .

Oh, my apologies. No, I despite fake healers and I'd prefer to kick them out of the group. I carry self heals and a mender just because of these people. I would prefer to fill the ability slots with something else but you can't always get the group to agree to kick people. I could just leave but it's punishing the two actual DPS players.

GreenHere

Nastassiya wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Probably the part of your above comment where you said "We only skip the queue because...", lol. I admit, your comment also gave me the distinct impression that you were on the fake tanking side of the fence. .

Oh, my apologies. No, I despite fake healers and I'd prefer to kick them out of the group. I carry self heals and a mender just because of these people. I would prefer to fill the ability slots with something else but you can't always get the group to agree to kick people. I could just leave but it's punishing the two actual DPS players.

Thanks for being a real tank then! We need more of you!

Darkstorne

Nastassiya wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Nastassiya wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

And it just annoys me that they think they're important enough to skip the queue while the other two DPS waited in line. Maybe it's because I'm British, but skipping queues is like chiselling "I'm a ****" into your forehead for the whole world to know about it.

We only skip the queue because there are not enough actual tanks to support the amount of DPS looking for a group. It's not about importance; it's about the amount of tanks in in need to support. It's literally just numbers.

Oh! I SEEEEE! Thank you so much, I get it now. You're queuing as a fake tank for MY benefit! And here I thought you were just cutting the line in front of all the other DPS for your own benefit, despite the fact the rest of your group will now be forced to endure a dungeon without taunts and pulls to speed things along. No, clearly, without you queuing as a tank we'd be waiting forever for a real tank. THANK YOU SO MUCH. I won't mind the chaotic dungeon runs and trying to heal three squishy allies through boss fights ever again.

Where did you get the idea that I queue as a fake tank? I'm 100% built as a tank: heavy armour, 35k self buffed resists, terrible DPS, taunt, charge, extra bash, self heal, mender, etc.

Haha! Sorry, your comment read as "I only queue as a fake tank because there aren't enough real tanks." But yes, I see what you mean. As a healer I suppose I get to skip the queue too, but at least you and I actually perform the roles we queue for

Nastassiya

Darkstorne wrote: »

Oh! I SEEEEE! Thank you so much, I get it now. You're queuing as a fake tank for MY benefit! And here I thought you were just cutting the line in front of all the other DPS for your own benefit, despite the fact the rest of your group will now be forced to endure a dungeon without taunts and pulls to speed things along. No, clearly, without you queuing as a tank we'd be waiting forever for a real tank. THANK YOU SO MUCH. I won't mind the chaotic dungeon runs and trying to heal three squishy allies through boss fights ever again.

You're fine, no worries. I knew somewhere I miscommunicated something.

Anonx31st

DtOG wrote: »

They really need to fix the queue for dps. Half hour to hour wait times 7 years in is horrendous.

Then more people should play tank, problem solved.

drunkendx

I find it amusing how narrow minded are fake tank/healer defenders.

Yes, number of dungeons can be easily done even on vet without tank/healer.

By players who KNOW what they are doing...

It's funny how many people forget they were new to something too.