On fake tanks and healers..

svendf

daramsjoe wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

There is no fix to this other than increasing group size to 5. Which for balancing reasons will never happen. Thread closed.

The answer to people lying about their role to enter into a dungeon is not increasing the number needed. It is people realizing it is a low bar to be honest in a video game. The proposed increased it to five would not prevent people from lying and claiming to be a role they would not. Just more could do so per dungeon.

5 people means 3 DPS per group. I'm sure you can figure out what that means for waiting times and therefore the need of DPS to fake other roles.

And I'm not proposing it. I'm just saying there is hardly any other way to stop abuse.

Allow players to choose what their group is comprised of...4dps...3dps and a healer and so on...ZOS can maintain "balance" by keeping 4 in a group but the players who want to run thru a dungeon can choose 4dps. The more traditional players can choose 2 dps a tank and a healer, other grouping can be determined by the player base as they could choose their own groupings. No more dps waiting forever for a group...unless the player base decides playing with more dps doesn't work.

That suggestion will exclude roles as tanks and healers in dungeons. What is needed is more including way oof doing thiings. Yes It´s hard for some to play in a group including a tank and healer and maybe a way to improve to- after all that mega billions dps player, who haave a carry effect on the group sn´t all that good for the group after all if you wanna improve or having everything served on a gold plate.

Erelah

ElliottXO wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

There is no fix to this other than increasing group size to 5. Which for balancing reasons will never happen. Thread closed.

The answer to people lying about their role to enter into a dungeon is not increasing the number needed. It is people realizing it is a low bar to be honest in a video game. The proposed increased it to five would not prevent people from lying and claiming to be a role they would not. Just more could do so per dungeon.

5 people means 3 DPS per group. I'm sure you can figure out what that means for waiting times and therefore the need of DPS to fake other roles.

And I'm not proposing it. I'm just saying there is hardly any other way to stop abuse.

And four people per dungeon means 2 DPS per dungeon. Oh wait sometimes there is three or even four with fake tanks and fake healers. Your proposal is if we increase the number to five per dungeon nobody will ever be a fake tank or healer and the problem will be solved. Everything in life has taught me that will not be the result.

spartaxoxo

Ackwalan wrote: »

1 skill point put into puncture, and they are back in queue as a tank with no intention of being a tank.

If they are forced to unlock the skill and slot it, most probably won't bother unslotting. The majority of the people doing this are just trying to get their run done fast and don't want to bother unlocking a skill they'd never need for anything else or even to run that dungeon quickly. They aren't actively trying to ruin your experience, they just don't care that easiest path for them to get their run done happens to ruin it.

If they did have it on the bar because they had to, most would probably just leave it on the bar use it because then that becomes the path of least resistance.

Mojmir

svendf wrote: »

as I see it it´s not ZOS fault. ZOS have a possibilty to hard code tank requirements into the game and maybe it will happen. Same could happen to healers.

5 in a group I guess 3dds and a tank and healer as some suggest will never solve the problem and they have to redesign all content to match 3 dds in a group, which may end up in a 4dd group anyway.

Healer and tank roles have to be hard coded into the game othervice it will not work.

ZOS can´t be blamed on these matters as it´s the player, who deside on how to play.

It´s all about attitude towards other player´s ingame and how selfish you are There are alot of good player´s on all platfoms in this game and doing a great so all will have a fun run, whatever they are running.

And then you have those pure fellas, who don´t give a flying ''''' about others

but it is though, they designed a system based on the trinity of tank/DPS/heals and then leave it unresolved. its up to them to make sure it works.

jle30303

In a lot of dungeons, fake healers aren't too much of a problem as long as they are a real DD. Which they often are: both Magicka-Healer and Magicka-DD require high Magicka, and you can have plenty enough skill points to run both builds - or, often, a hybrid build of the two: in either case, swapping skills on the bar or swapping gear makes the difference without needing to actually rebuild the entire character. Besides, a lot of DDs run Ring of the Pale Order now, which means that the healer is left with only a tank to heal... which, especially in trials, brings in a change of strategy (and may allow a place for tanks who aren't so good at healing themselves, the kind who can take one big hit but not restore enough on their own before they have to take a second.)

Now, being an *incompetent* real DD who queues as fake healer is another issue...

Fake tanks are another issue. I wonder if a solution would be: cannot queue as Tank unless Health is the stat in which you have invested the most actual stat points, out of the 1-3 per level that you get, maxing out at 64 at level 50. You might play as a hybrid (health and one stat both mid-range and throw some damage into the mix) or a full tank (nearly all health with 0-10 points in other stats), but you gotta actually *build* a tank to queue as one.

tmbrinks

Considering I can throw a taunt (maybe silver leash) on my healer... and "tank" every normal dungeon in the game... along w/ about 50%+ of the veteran dungeons... I mean... I have almost 30k health in my "normal" healing setup

Now, I rarely queue in dungeons, because I want to play a certain way, I group up with other like-minded players.

If you go to the random queue of players or dungeons, you're going to get random. If you want to play a specific way, partner up with others like you.

jle30303

If you have a taunt, use it to hold monsters in place for DDs to hit with AOES, and survive the whole dungeon as a tank (whether by having 30k and surviving the hits, or getting out of the way of the biggest hits and surviving the lesser ones) then you aren't a fake. Maybe a mediocre tank in a dungeon where mediocre is enough, but at least you are actually tanking. After all, that's exactly how newbie real tanks start.

The problem is when tanks don't taunt, don't hold aggro, and allow the boss to chase squishy DDs all the time. Missing taunt for a few seconds may be forgivable, but never taunting at all isn't. That's when someone is an actual fake. Everything else is gravy on the top, but real tanks TAUNT, that's the meat-and-potatoes.

In most original-content dungeons - especially on Normal - it's okay to be a mediocre tank (DD or healer queueing as a tank with a taunt in one slot) because you still by and large won't die. However, anyone who queues as a tank and then dies to trash while claiming "this is normal, we don't need a tank" should be booted at once. Your business is to keep the boss away from the DDs.

DMuehlhausen

DtOG wrote: »

They really need to fix the queue for dps. Half hour to hour wait times 7 years in is horrendous.

It's that cause people don't tank or heal. Nothing ZOS can do about it. it's a community thing. People get tired of being tanks and healers then blamed for wipes or other issues with DDs aren't following mechanics aren't doing anything helpful, running around cause they feel everyone is to slow etc.

Nastassiya

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

It's that cause people don't tank or heal. Nothing ZOS can do about it. it's a community thing. People get tired of being tanks and healers then blamed for wipes or other issues with DDs aren't following mechanics aren't doing anything helpful, running around cause they feel everyone is to slow etc.

No, honestly ZOS could set standard group sizes to 5 and add a 3rd slot for DPS but they would also need to beef up the fights to compensate for a 3rd DPS. That would help with the queues.

Amottica

Volktair wrote: »

Hell yeah, i missed read this thread since last week.

And i always queue as fake tank for random or other vet dungeons, which i know i can taunt boss whitout dying.

From now no one complained about it. Free speed run with 3 dd. If you want to do a dungeon slowly go to a guild or add friends with the same level to enjoy it with your rithm.

If you are taunting the boss and surviving then it seems you are a real tank.

kuutar

My healer ends up tanking while also healing since fake tank. Not funny. Everyone needs to do their job.

Sarannah

Today I experienced another way in which fake roles influence the queue's. When they get a random dungeon they know they can't 'fake', they will immediately leave group, leaving three people as victims. This is without counting their new group, which will be stuck with a fake role.

Rebel_Rose

There is already a system in place to remove players you do not wish to group with in dungeons, just kick them. If your group does not agree with your sentiments, then leave also. Simple really.

Niblix

Just report fake tanks/healers.

When the CS is bombarded with reports they'll fix it so you can't report players.

ApoAlaia

tmbrinks wrote: »

Considering I can throw a taunt (maybe silver leash) on my healer... and "tank" every normal dungeon in the game... along w/ about 50%+ of the veteran dungeons... I mean... I have almost 30k health in my "normal" healing setup

Now, I rarely queue in dungeons, because I want to play a certain way, I group up with other like-minded players.

If you go to the random queue of players or dungeons, you're going to get random. If you want to play a specific way, partner up with others like you.

Yep, I expect a random tank, a random healer, a random DD and yours truly landing on a random dungeon. What it says in the tin really.

In reality what I often find is two random fellas that are neither of those things who queued already grouped together as to avoid getting duly rejected, another DD and myself.

If things get rough going the two that think that are smarter than everyone else invariably bail having wasted people's time including theirs - which in all fairness is the time I least care about.

Agenericname

Nastassiya wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

It's that cause people don't tank or heal. Nothing ZOS can do about it. it's a community thing. People get tired of being tanks and healers then blamed for wipes or other issues with DDs aren't following mechanics aren't doing anything helpful, running around cause they feel everyone is to slow etc.

No, honestly ZOS could set standard group sizes to 5 and add a 3rd slot for DPS but they would also need to beef up the fights to compensate for a 3rd DPS. That would help with the queues.

They would need to do more than beef them up. In some cases they would need to make major alterations to the existing mechanics.

SCP for instance. On HM there are exactly 4 synergies, each of a different type. There is even an achievement for beating it without taking the same type twice. They would need to add a synergy. That would make it really cramped.

FV, 4 mice, 4 synergies, 4 paths.

MOS, one shade per player. That's easily the most problematic part of the fight, adding a 5th would make it much worse. Not to mention the Indrik fight during the crouch phase and the AOEs.

MHK. There are 4 sigils of each type for all 4 players, usually. I'm not sure there is room on the Archivist fight for more. And if there were, it would be chaotic enough that it would hinder completions by PUGs unless they used a straight burn strategy, which I don't think ZOS wants to put in reach of PUGs.

In base game dungeons I cant think of many that have mechanics that would hinder a 5th, but many of the DLCs do or have conditions where proximity matters, like UG when he casts abyss or FH colossus meteors, or mechanics in place specifically tailored to 4 players.

The dungeons in ESO are tuned for 4 people, and even if I agreed, its an undertaking that I do not believe ZOS would be willing engage.

Amottica

Niblix wrote: »

Just report fake tanks/healers.

When the CS is bombarded with reports they'll fix it so you can't report players.

Interesting take.

I have been in a couple of groups where we kicked the "tank" that was not taunting and I have been doing dungeons for barely more than a month. That works as well since we showed them who was the boss.

sevomd69

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Had an encounter with a fake tank yesterday in Banished Cells 2. He queued for normal WGT (ZOS?!). One DD went staight offline.
He didnt taunt so we shared aggro. Heal was fabulous no one died and we did HM.

Problem? No Problem.

If you had no tank or a taunt... who held the daedroths to get the hm?

Merforum

The bad thing is the random queue has a good reward 100K/10trans for 50+, which is supposed to help below 50s level up and experienced players to HELP THEM LEARN. That is what the reward is for.

But it is being exploited by people who only care about he rewards or gear and nothing else. Mind you the exact same people who will say normal is TOO EASY and needs to be much harder will RUIN normal for everyone else because they can't do Vet random (they say because it would take too long but we all know it is because they are afraid). I can't tell you how many times whenever I queue as healer, the fake tank run around get overwhelmed by the adds and/or get 1 shot.

So lowering the reward or increasing it for vet wouldn't change anything really. Reporting them does absolutely nothing. I don't know if blocking them will keep them out of same queue. But I know blocking someone does NOT keep them out of BG queue because I blocked several people and was queued with them anyway. Luckily they just left, and we won BTW.

Kicking doesn't really help because they just queue up again to harass another group. One thing that might help is if someone (above lvl 50) queues as tank and does not taunt the main bosses at all (which ZOS can check) then at end of dungeon they get NO REWARDs. Only then will this end. Although they might need to also do this for fake healers because I have also noticed these folks starting to queue as fake healer but not heal anyone and just run ahead.

For some history, when I started playing over 5 years ago dungeon finder was great. Everyone at high level was super nice, would literally spend time explaining mechanics and tactics, etc. And it was fun. Only in the last few years, it has been getting worse with lots of bad advise. People parsing dummies, and doing XP grinds instead of content, and using every shortcut because someone on youtube told them to play like that. Instead of trying to fix this ZOS implements companions but unless they are get better than sorc clanefar fast that won't work.

Amottica

Merforum wrote: »

Kicking doesn't really help because they just queue up again to harass another group.

Not kicking is what does not help. It stands to reason that if fake tanks were kicked with regularity the practice would pretty much die out. Not kicking is accepting the practice.

In my short tenure here I have been in two groups where we kicked the fake tank. In both cases during my short tenure here we were able to finish the dungeon without the fake tank. In one case we invited a tank to join us.

As I gain more experience in ESO I will build an alt spec so I can fill that role if needed after kicking a fake tank.

Exquisition

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

...I'm tired of selfish DPS coming into these queues and creating a literal cluster-F of a dungeon run because they're just too lazy to at least try to play the role they've queued for.

I'm also sick and tired of hearing things like "WELL YOU SHOULDN'T NEED A TANK OR A HEALER" ..I do not care if it's Normal or Vet ..not everyone plays this game the same way. Not everyone wants to run through at breakneck speed. Some folks are doing the quest. Some folks want the XP grind. Some folks want to farm chests. Some folks are low level and it's their first time in a given dungeon, and you STILL get these jerks who act like it's everyone should put up with their entitled nonsense, just because.

Sounds to me you are tired of pug groups. And I totally get it. I don't like fake Tanks or Healers either. I also dislike the toxic group chat of a lot (sometimes you find a decent group though) of pug groups. But hey, what options do you have if you like to play the game casually? You're probably soloing through the game like I do?
Well, I know it sounds weird, but because I got so super annoyed of pug groups and ppl doing dungeon runs as fast as possible, I stopped doing pugs and created my own Guild for Solo Players. Forget about how contradictionary it sounds, but I created a Guild that fully supports doings pledges and dungeon runs in all possible ways possible. Our Guild is full with Solo Players who have been dealing with all the stuff you are dealing with and we are having a blast together. So whenever you group up for a dungeon run in our Guild, you get super friendly Guildmates, who take all the time you want to spent in a dungeon (or not if you are just doing a quick farm run) and who know how to be a real DPS, TAnk or Healer.
If you are interested, check out the Guild Listing in game or here at the forums, or sent me a pm

Agenericname

Amottica wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Kicking doesn't really help because they just queue up again to harass another group.

As I gain more experience in ESO I will build an alt spec so I can fill that role if needed after kicking a fake tank.

You could just skip straight to that part.

The upsides:
Youre virtually immune to fake tank problems.
Queue times are nearly instant.
Easy to find groups for arenas and other runs where people either dont want to or cant use DF.
Its enjoyable in group content.
Most people do appreciate a real tank.

Rishikesa108

I have many characters, so I can play as dd, as healer or as a tank. But I can't do dungeon only with my healers or tanks, I want to queue also with my dd and play a dungeon !!! I can't afford to stay in queue for hours when I pick my dds to play. That is the reason why I often play as a healer or tank when I play with my dd characters. But relax: I know how to tank or to do some healing in normal runs, also with a dd character :-) Never queued with fake rule in a vet, and when I find a fake rule in vet I quit, ever.

zvavi

Agenericname wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Kicking doesn't really help because they just queue up again to harass another group.

As I gain more experience in ESO I will build an alt spec so I can fill that role if needed after kicking a fake tank.

You could just skip straight to that part.

The upsides:
Youre virtually immune to fake tank problems.
Queue times are nearly instant.
Easy to find groups for arenas and other runs where people either dont want to or cant use DF.
Its enjoyable in group content.
Most people do appreciate a real tank.

Downsides: fake dds.

stitchesofdooom

Fake tanks and healers are completely unacceptable. One of the issues is that, so I understand, tanking especially is far less fun in ESO. No group taunts for example. I know there are awesome tanks out there who don't need no group taunts etc, but genderally speaking, it's not as easy to do well.

Agenericname

zvavi wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Kicking doesn't really help because they just queue up again to harass another group.

As I gain more experience in ESO I will build an alt spec so I can fill that role if needed after kicking a fake tank.

You could just skip straight to that part.

The upsides:
Youre virtually immune to fake tank problems.
Queue times are nearly instant.
Easy to find groups for arenas and other runs where people either dont want to or cant use DF.
Its enjoyable in group content.
Most people do appreciate a real tank.

Downsides: fake dds.

I must of forgot to add that.

You'll get in faster, but not always out faster.

GreenHere

zvavi wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Kicking doesn't really help because they just queue up again to harass another group.

As I gain more experience in ESO I will build an alt spec so I can fill that role if needed after kicking a fake tank.

You could just skip straight to that part.

The upsides:
Youre virtually immune to fake tank problems.
Queue times are nearly instant.
Easy to find groups for arenas and other runs where people either dont want to or cant use DF.
Its enjoyable in group content.
Most people do appreciate a real tank.

Downsides: fake dds.

Best solution? Make a build that can hold taunt on any boss you encounter, reasonably heal allies who aren't going out of their way to die, and still dish out decent damage when not busy with those other things! Easier said than done, perhaps, but competent "solo+" builds like this are about the only way I can endure PUG runs where the tank is fake (no taunt, nothing) and the healer only casts Vigor every 48 seconds or so... and the DPS are spamming the Jesus Beam execute when the boss is at full health.

Basically, you just gear yourself out to straight-up carry any incompetent fools you run across, and revel in the occasional joy of getting matched with people who actually do what they sign up for! :P


Or, you know, avoid the randoms altogether and just run the daily dungeon in pre-made groups.

Greevir

Amottica wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Kicking doesn't really help because they just queue up again to harass another group.

Not kicking is what does not help. It stands to reason that if fake tanks were kicked with regularity the practice would pretty much die out. Not kicking is accepting the practice.

In my short tenure here I have been in two groups where we kicked the fake tank. In both cases during my short tenure here we were able to finish the dungeon without the fake tank. In one case we invited a tank to join us.

As I gain more experience in ESO I will build an alt spec so I can fill that role if needed after kicking a fake tank.

Proving that "real tanks" aren't needed. So how is having a "fake tank" so detrimental that they need to be kicked?

AzucarSalado

I would say that it is worst since the new CP system, maybe there are more players grinding.

Personally, I do not like to play ESO like a Diablo game. I always initiate a vote-kick. Sometimes, just before the end of the dungeon, For sure, if I see that we don’t need the fake player to kill the last boss :evil:. No one should queue as fake, included players with “low dps" which, anyhow, they are frequently vote-kicked before starting.

cheers.-

Mojmir

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/59917

these are the only fake tanks/healers ive seen