On fake tanks and healers..

Anonx31st · April 2021

drunkendx wrote: »

I find it amusing how narrow minded are fake tank/healer defenders.

Yes, number of dungeons can be easily done even on vet without tank/healer.

By players who KNOW what they are doing...

It's funny how many people forget they were new to something too.

I agree, when I'm healing and I see a new or low cp player in a pug who has at least taunt on their bar, I don't automatically label them as a fake tank. Healing them just gives me more of a challenge.

hackdrag0n · April 2021

Nastassiya wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

And it just annoys me that they think they're important enough to skip the queue while the other two DPS waited in line. Maybe it's because I'm British, but skipping queues is like chiselling "I'm a ****" into your forehead for the whole world to know about it.

We only skip the queue because there are not enough actual tanks to support the amount of DPS looking for a group. It's not about importance; it's about the amount of tanks in in need to support. It's literally just numbers.

Agree. There is a real lack of tanks in this game especially in the random queue. I never random queue on mine because too many times DD's have been rude to me because I made a mistake
in the past like forgetting to interrupt something or accidentally taunting the wrong mob. Too many people expect tanks to already be perfect and know content already - no wonder no one wants to do it.

ElliottXO · April 2021

There is no fix to this other than increasing group size to 5. Which for balancing reasons will never happen. Thread closed.

Volktair · April 2021

Hell yeah, i missed read this thread since last week.

And i always queue as fake tank for random or other vet dungeons, which i know i can taunt boss whitout dying.

From now no one complained about it. Free speed run with 3 dd. If you want to do a dungeon slowly go to a guild or add friends with the same level to enjoy it with your rithm.

svendf · April 2021

heartburnkid wrote: »

I prefer a fake tank/healer if they can burn.

That´s because you like to get carrried and make others do the job for you haha

EpicHero · April 2021

The problem is the insane long queue times... It seems to be worse then ever right now, unless you are a tank and to a lesser degree, a healer. But if you queue up as 2 dps, you can sit waiting in the queue for hours without getting a group.

I was hoping the companions would help with this, but reading feedback on that, they seem pretty useless.

I'm in 5 guilds, asking for tank+healer in all 5 of them gets me 0 response every time.
I don't know if this is because to the U29 changes, but it's like the game is totally dead right now...

And let me be clear... I love playing games, especially together with the wife... but sitting in a game staring at the screen while you wait to get a group, is AN ABSOLUTE WASTE OF TIME. And any game that has this, normally gets deleted instantly.

If this doesn't improve, we will be quitting.

Zer0_CooL · April 2021

Had an encounter with a fake tank yesterday in Banished Cells 2. He queued for normal WGT (ZOS?!). One DD went staight offline.
He didnt taunt so we shared aggro. Heal was fabulous no one died and we did HM.

Problem? No Problem.

Sarannah · April 2021

EpicHero wrote: »

I'm in 5 guilds, asking for tank+healer in all 5 of them gets me 0 response every time.
I don't know if this is because to the U29 changes, but it's like the game is totally dead right now...

I can't speak for other tanks, but I am not in a guild. A few weeks ago I considered being in a guild, but it seems like a waste of time. I get (mostly) instant queue's as a tank, and forming a group in guildchat would take longer than queueing for a pug. Yes, pugs are with random players. But they mostly work well.

I would also want to be able to assign a role to our friendslist listing. So we can show in the friendslist that we are a tank, just incase someone needs a tank. Making it easier for players to ask.

DtOG wrote: »

They really need to fix the queue for dps. Half hour to hour wait times 7 years in is horrendous.

Well, ZOS is going in the different direction. Every update, tanks are getting nerfed more and more. Due to PvP players being too strong, and this also massively impacts PvE tanking. In a not so good way. Add to that, the facts that tanks can barely do overland normally, and tanking being an intense playingstyle. And you see why there barely are any tanks. Dual spec would atleast solve some of these issues.
But I have been thinking, players keep complaining about low DPS. So, what if dungeons had three DPS per group? ... It would make current runs smoother overall, as there is more DPS. And they would make the DPS queue move faster, as three DPS are going into the dungeon, instead of only two. Making it 5-player groups.

My solutions to overall increase the amount of tanks:
-Dual spec.
-Main role showing in friendslist.
-Three dps in dungeongroups(so 5 players total).

Avoranti · April 2021

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Had a fake tank rusher in Imperial City Prison last night. Rushing fake tank? Nevermind. That guy managed to lock his entire group from a Boss fight TWICE, just by rushing ahead and starting the fight so that the doors closed.

TWICE!

One guy fighting, three guys locked out. And the others didn't even wanted to kick him!

Had a DD do this very same thing in a pug, twice even. I got on mic and yelled at them. One of the other group members left group (they were very low leveled). The DD wiped, we ran in, the same DD started the fight before everyone was ready. TWICE!!

I absolutely hate when DD’s queue as tanks and healers. I don’t care if it’s normal or vet. Play your role or don’t queue. If you want to run as a fake role, don’t do it in pugs. Create a group with your guild mates or friends. I have 4 tanks, 2 healers and 10 DD’s. I always queue my role proper. But I noticed this.

Tank solo queue, (no premade group) gets in
Healer solo queue (no premade group)gets in
Tank + Healer queue (as a group) gets in
Tank + DD queue (as a group) gets in
Healer + DD queue (as a group) gets in
Tank + 2 DD’s (premade) gets in
Healer + 2 DD’s (premade) gets in.
DD solo queue waits an eternity.
DD + DD queue as a group, waits forever

HalfRain216 · April 2021

Avoranti wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Had a fake tank rusher in Imperial City Prison last night. Rushing fake tank? Nevermind. That guy managed to lock his entire group from a Boss fight TWICE, just by rushing ahead and starting the fight so that the doors closed.

TWICE!

One guy fighting, three guys locked out. And the others didn't even wanted to kick him!

Had a DD do this very same thing in a pug, twice even. I got on mic and yelled at them. One of the other group members left group (they were very low leveled). The DD wiped, we ran in, the same DD started the fight before everyone was ready. TWICE!!

I absolutely hate when DD’s queue as tanks and healers. I don’t care if it’s normal or vet. Play your role or don’t queue. If you want to run as a fake role, don’t do it in pugs. Create a group with your guild mates or friends. I have 4 tanks, 2 healers and 10 DD’s. I always queue my role proper. But I noticed this.

Tank solo queue, (no premade group) gets in
Healer solo queue (no premade group)gets in
Tank + Healer queue (as a group) gets in
Tank + DD queue (as a group) gets in
Healer + DD queue (as a group) gets in
Tank + 2 DD’s (premade) gets in
Healer + 2 DD’s (premade) gets in.
DD solo queue waits an eternity.
DD + DD queue as a group, waits forever

I have a different experience.
Tank solo queue I get straight in.
Healer I get straight in.
Tank + DD can wait an hr.
DD + DD can wait an hr on average but occasionally will get straight in.
DD solo will always be an hr.
Never queued as Tank and Healer so no comment.

Xbox NA

Erelah · April 2021

ElliottXO wrote: »

There is no fix to this other than increasing group size to 5. Which for balancing reasons will never happen. Thread closed.

The answer to people lying about their role to enter into a dungeon is not increasing the number needed. It is people realizing it is a low bar to be honest in a video game. The proposed increased it to five would not prevent people from lying and claiming to be a role they would not. Just more could do so per dungeon.

oddbasket · April 2021

My criteria of vote kicking fake roles is Ken Jeong's voice in my head asking me, "But did you die~~~?"

daramsjoe · April 2021

Keep the group at 4 and allow the player to choose if they want a group of 4dps...3dps and a healer....3dps and a tank or 2dps and 1 tank, 1 healer. There could even be options for 4 healer or 4 tank groups. Should solve the que issues for dps as well as the I don't wanna be in a group with a fake tank/healer issues. Seems like a workable enough fix to me.

B6L6Z6BUB · April 2021

OP mentioned exp grinding....i would go so far as to say that the exp is negligible and that if you want exp, go to nDSA or nBRP instead of wasting time on a normal dungeon. You get so much more exp and by grinding out the exp in a dungeon, you are preventing people like me from just completing the pledge and moving on. I personally dont want to do nDOM for an hour for one key.

B6L6Z6BUB · April 2021

Also, id like to point out that OP appears to be a skinny puppy fan....so thank you for that.

Madhojo · April 2021

I agree and it does get frustrating on a difficult dungeon when your "tank" cant even taunt the enemies.

For the love of God if youre going to be a fake tank at least get a taunt skill!

BlueRaven · April 2021

ElliottXO wrote: »

There is no fix to this other than increasing group size to 5. Which for balancing reasons will never happen. Thread closed.

Zos could make tanks fun to play, to increase their numbers... But nah, let’s keep nerfing them instead. /s

heartburnkid · April 2021

Tanks need a group pull. See tanking in the terrible (but the got this right) game, Dc Universe Online. They didn’t get much anything right, but tanking there is way more fun. Just one large group taunt per class would be way more fun.

ElliottXO · April 2021

Erelah wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

There is no fix to this other than increasing group size to 5. Which for balancing reasons will never happen. Thread closed.

The answer to people lying about their role to enter into a dungeon is not increasing the number needed. It is people realizing it is a low bar to be honest in a video game. The proposed increased it to five would not prevent people from lying and claiming to be a role they would not. Just more could do so per dungeon.

5 people means 3 DPS per group. I'm sure you can figure out what that means for waiting times and therefore the need of DPS to fake other roles.

And I'm not proposing it. I'm just saying there is hardly any other way to stop abuse.

svendf · April 2021

as I see it it´s not ZOS fault. ZOS have a possibilty to hard code tank requirements into the game and maybe it will happen. Same could happen to healers.

5 in a group I guess 3dds and a tank and healer as some suggest will never solve the problem and they have to redesign all content to match 3 dds in a group, which may end up in a 4dd group anyway.

Healer and tank roles have to be hard coded into the game othervice it will not work.

ZOS can´t be blamed on these matters as it´s the player, who deside on how to play.

It´s all about attitude towards other player´s ingame and how selfish you are There are alot of good player´s on all platfoms in this game and doing a great so all will have a fun run, whatever they are running.

And then you have those pure fellas, who don´t give a flying ''''' about others

ElliottXO · April 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

There is no fix to this other than increasing group size to 5. Which for balancing reasons will never happen. Thread closed.

Zos could make tanks fun to play, to increase their numbers... But nah, let’s keep nerfing them instead. /s

Not sure if this is the case. Most games have similar issues. I would rather say most people don't want to 'lead'.

josiahva · April 2021

In the end, there is no way to reasonably stop it aside from vote-kicking. You get what you get with a pug, vote kick or leave if you don't like it. I queued for a random as the tank and got vet darkshade(can't remember if it was 1 or 2 offhand) the DPS proceeded to run ahead and try skipping/dragging mobs around after typing something about a speedrun...blah blah blah, nope, I just quit and took the 15 minute penalty. They didn't respect the rest of the group enough to even wait for agreement or disagreement, they didn't respect the tank(me) enough to let me do my job....that's all well and good, more power to them...but I sure wasn't going to put up with it....if they don't need me in the group then I don't need to waste my time there.

daramsjoe · April 2021

ElliottXO wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

There is no fix to this other than increasing group size to 5. Which for balancing reasons will never happen. Thread closed.

The answer to people lying about their role to enter into a dungeon is not increasing the number needed. It is people realizing it is a low bar to be honest in a video game. The proposed increased it to five would not prevent people from lying and claiming to be a role they would not. Just more could do so per dungeon.

5 people means 3 DPS per group. I'm sure you can figure out what that means for waiting times and therefore the need of DPS to fake other roles.

And I'm not proposing it. I'm just saying there is hardly any other way to stop abuse.

Allow players to choose what their group is comprised of...4dps...3dps and a healer and so on...ZOS can maintain "balance" by keeping 4 in a group but the players who want to run thru a dungeon can choose 4dps. The more traditional players can choose 2 dps a tank and a healer, other grouping can be determined by the player base as they could choose their own groupings. No more dps waiting forever for a group...unless the player base decides playing with more dps doesn't work.

BlueRaven · April 2021

ElliottXO wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

There is no fix to this other than increasing group size to 5. Which for balancing reasons will never happen. Thread closed.

Zos could make tanks fun to play, to increase their numbers... But nah, let’s keep nerfing them instead. /s

Not sure if this is the case. Most games have similar issues. I would rather say most people don't want to 'lead'.

Tank damage has been consistently nerfed for years now.

“But they don’t need to do big damage in a group!”

Tanks don’t just disappear when the dungeon is over, they have to do dailies, go resource farming, etc. Taking forever to kill the two lions near an ore node is not fun gameplay.

“They can carry around another set of gear for overland stuff.”

...And still do lower damage then a pure dps. OR they can put away their tank stuff, become a pure dps and do overland much, much easier, AND still do all of the content tanks can do, PLUS do solo arenas.

That is why their is so few tanks. Low damage, Extra requirements for overland adventuring. Can’t do all content.

Not. Fun.

MooseKnuckles88 · April 2021

IMO, I feel fake tanks are only a problem in vet DLC dungeons. Pretty much everything else can just be dps'd down in every other dungeon. I understand the annoyance about the lack of tanks at the helm ready to run randoms, but if 4 dps can play the mechanics I don't see the big issue here. Dodge heavies, don't stand in stupid, bash when needed, and slot a shield/self heal, there's no reason why any group of 4 can't clear normal dungeons or vet non-DLC dungeons without a tank unless they just don't know the mechanics or have very little CP or something.

In the end there's no way it'll end, and any solution would probably just create more issues/lag with the group finder as well. I would suggest ZoS make incentives to tank, but that still wouldn't fix the issue because people would still fake tank and get more rewarded for and like I said any checkpoint type of solution in the group finder would probably just break more things too.

ApoAlaia · April 2021

Ultimately the opinion players hold about themselves or who should be able to clear what and how is irrelevant.

If they are not tanks or healers and they are queuing as such they are in the wrong. It really is that simple.

Anything else is just mental gymnastics to try to justify unacceptable behaviour.

MooseKnuckles88 · April 2021

I agree, but most people could give a hoot about being 'morally right' and more focused on getting in and getting out and off to the next thing.

BXR_Lonestar · April 2021

They just need to get rid of role requirements for normal dungeons, period. I'd say at least 95% of the dungeons, including DLC dungeons, can be completed with fake tanks and fake healers, provided that all of the DPS are not stamina-based DPS characters.

daramsjoe · April 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

There is no fix to this other than increasing group size to 5. Which for balancing reasons will never happen. Thread closed.

Zos could make tanks fun to play, to increase their numbers... But nah, let’s keep nerfing them instead. /s

Not sure if this is the case. Most games have similar issues. I would rather say most people don't want to 'lead'.

Tank damage has been consistently nerfed for years now.

“But they don’t need to do big damage in a group!”

Tanks don’t just disappear when the dungeon is over, they have to do dailies, go resource farming, etc. Taking forever to kill the two lions near an ore node is not fun gameplay.

“They can carry around another set of gear for overland stuff.”

...And still do lower damage then a pure dps. OR they can put away their tank stuff, become a pure dps and do overland much, much easier, AND still do all of the content tanks can do, PLUS do solo arenas.

That is why their is so few tanks. Low damage, Extra requirements for overland adventuring. Can’t do all content.

Not. Fun.

I have a 700plus Magiplar...been tanking and healing on her for a while now. All of her skills are at 50 with almost(bow at 42) all of her morphs done. I carry multiple gear sets so that I can switch for the occasion. I also have a DK(lvl 40) set up for tanking....guess which one is more fun to play?

I couldn't agree more with this.

Agenericname · April 2021

B6L6Z6BUB wrote: »

OP mentioned exp grinding....i would go so far as to say that the exp is negligible and that if you want exp, go to nDSA or nBRP instead of wasting time on a normal dungeon. You get so much more exp and by grinding out the exp in a dungeon, you are preventing people like me from just completing the pledge and moving on. I personally dont want to do nDOM for an hour for one key.

While grinding XP in nBRP may be better, I'd hardly call random dungeons negligible in terms of XP. The bonus from the random is over 100k XP. Without enlightenment or any other other modifier, like scrolls or food, that puts it at a over 1/3 of a level at +1500 CP from the bonus and half a level with the XP from the kills. You also get 10 transmute crystals per dungeons. If that dungeons happens to be a pledge, then it's up to 15 crystals plus the XP from the random, XP from the pledge, and key(s).

Getting into either of the group arenas requires that you have a group. Most are running nBRP with 2, but it still requires a second, which makes it time consuming if you don't have a partner ready to go. DSA half of the arena is waiting on mobs to spawn, it can be fun, but its not a good place for XP. The random is; select tank, click go, and unless the DF is broken, you're porting.

I am a tank and immune to the fake tank issues, I'm just stating why its so enticing.