A Second Look at Proc Sets (5,478 Cap, Previous Power)

LeonAkando

From my first impression I feel that the proc set required value for previous output are far too high. Whether that be 5,478 or 38,350 max stat sets.
With proc sets no longer being able to crit, and the fact that they were already very weak in PVE content besides a few notable exceptions, I believe retooling these numbers is necessary.

1) No More Monster Sets? [DPS]

Given how weak the procs are going to be, in most realistic situations, we are likely going to continue to run the Slimeclaw/Zaan combo for double crit. This is pretty disheartening as a lot of Monster Sets are actually my favorite sets. It would be much more enjoyable if Monster sets were used for their 2P procs rather than their 1P stats.
No one likes to scroll through all these awesome sets and effects and then remember "Yeah but.. weaker than crit so deconstruct it".

2) Max Stats & Potential

A lot tank and support sets scaling off max stats has the potential to open up some very interesting build paths. The only problem is that the stats required are pretty high. The sets that scale off Max Health are already exceedingly weak. On top of that, stacking health is much less valuable than other resources, and you give up a lot of stats to do so. Furthermore, the support sets that scale off Max Magicka or Max Stamina are also underwhelming considering most healing builds are just barely hitting that threshold right now. I can't think of many reasons support proc sets needed to be nerfed.

3) The Death of the Hybridtank

Most tanks have probably experienced the sheer joy of slotting a DPS Proc Monster Set and Alkosh and finally killing overland enemies at a reasonable pace, and finally contributing a significant number to their dungeon teams damage. It's not uncommon to run Maarselok and Alkosh for some pretty snazzy hybridtank damage, and putting the new Maarselok rework aside, making Proc Sets do significantly reduced damage for tanks in PVE situations seems awfully cruel. By no means were these tanks hitting numbers even in the same game as a damage dealer, but they were doing more than zero.

Even in full tank builds, Alkosh is a popular set up (less so with the Magicka Meta) but also provided a little bit of enjoyable personal DPS on the side of the tank. With every update, ZOS is clear to mention they don't like tanks using Alkosh, despite it being a favorite set among tank players. In U29, they made it where tanks have to commit a bit more Weapon Damage to reach the pen cap and have it be usable. This was sensible, but asking a tank to reach 5,478 Weapon Damage to get the same throughput is asking for too much. If the value was lower, tanks wouldn't log on to such a brutal damage nerf overnight. It's not like a damage dealer would ever slot it for how little damage it does even at 5,478 WD compared to other popular stamina sets.

The PvP Problem:
I understand that the Proc changes were largely made on behalf of PVP. Is it not possible to reduce the power of scaling in PVP environments? It could include a tooltip attachment "This set scales off of your Maximum Weapon Damage or Spell Damage, reduced effectiveness in PVP".

To me, it makes little sense to invalidate most of these sets for PVE, just to balance them around PVP. I also think PVP shouldn't have to suffer with Heavy Permablock Proc Tanks. I believe there can be a middle ground met.

Firstmep

Really? My stamplar with no weapon damage sets easily gets 9-10k in organised pve groups.

If anything this a pretty nice buff.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

How are u making these calculations?

The PTS is not even online yet.

Masel

Firstmep wrote: »

Really? My stamplar with no weapon damage sets easily gets 9-10k in organised pve groups.

If anything this a pretty nice buff.

Yup, this. In pve you can get there pretty easily

LeonAkando

Firstmep wrote: »

Really? My stamplar with no weapon damage sets easily gets 9-10k in organised pve groups.

If anything this a pretty nice buff.

Remember weapon damage is easier than spell damage to achieve due to Medium Armor Passives. Most I could get was 8k Spell Damage with full Siroria stacks. And again, to get there I had to run those SD sets.

Also this still doesn't address the nerf to procs for PVE Tanks & Healers.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

How are u making these calculations?

The PTS is not even online yet.

The patch notes gave us the calculations. Feel free to check them out.

Furthermore, you can check your values from previously on live or in logs.

SidraWillowsky

Masel wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Really? My stamplar with no weapon damage sets easily gets 9-10k in organised pve groups.

If anything this a pretty nice buff.

Yup, this. In pve you can get there pretty easily

Can mag characters do that too? My numbers on my mag DD are not even close to the number needed to reach the numbers we get on live.

grumpy_pants95

LeonAkando wrote: »

From my first impression I feel that the proc set required value for previous output are far too high. Whether that be 5,478 or 38,350 max stat sets.
With proc sets no longer being able to crit, and the fact that they were already very weak in PVE content besides a few notable exceptions, I believe retooling these numbers is necessary.

- I somewhat agree with the caps however they are more than achievable with the CP 2.0.

1) No More Monster Sets? [DPS]

Given how weak the procs are going to be, in most realistic situations, we are likely going to continue to run the Slimeclaw/Zaan combo for double crit. This is pretty disheartening as a lot of Monster Sets are actually my favorite sets. It would be much more enjoyable if Monster sets were used for their 2P procs rather than their 1P stats.
No one likes to scroll through all these awesome sets and effects and then remember "Yeah but.. weaker than crit so deconstruct it".

- I understand what was written in the patch notes however i think you’re ‘thinking’ too far ahead rather than virtually assessing the ‘problem’ and testing it in-game before making so called statements in behalf of the community.

2) Max Stats & Potential

A lot tank and support sets scaling off max stats has the potential to open up some very interesting build paths. The only problem is that the stats required are pretty high. The sets that scale off Max Health are already exceedingly weak. On top of that, stacking health is much less valuable than other resources, and you give up a lot of stats to do so. Furthermore, the support sets that scale off Max Magicka or Max Stamina are also underwhelming considering most healing builds are just barely hitting that threshold right now. I can't think of many reasons support proc sets needed to be nerfed.

- i think support classes will actually benefit from this change rather than thinking they are nerfed. I guess we’ll see how they perform in content.



The PvP Problem:
I understand that the Proc changes were largely made on behalf of PVP. Is it not possible to reduce the power of scaling in PVP environments? It could include a tooltip attachment "This set scales off of your Maximum Weapon Damage or Spell Damage, reduced effectiveness in PVP".

- I don’t think that is possible as PVP and PVE aren’t really different instances but different zones/maps. I think it’s easier to do a overall change rather than a change in PVP zones but none in PVE zones as they overlap which could cause a massive issue with conditions overlapping and probably increasing the system processing time rather than just being ‘straight forward and simple’.

To me, it makes little sense to invalidate most of these sets for PVE, just to balance them around PVP. I also think PVP shouldn't have to suffer with Heavy Permablock Proc Tanks. I believe there can be a middle ground met.

- Again most of these sets have probably been buffed overall than nerfed considering that in combat and content and group content, most if not all ‘customised’ play style builds for the content they’re in will be able to meet the criteria the sets require in matter to perform ‘as good as before’

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Canned_Apples

It was really just a nerf to pvp, but we still don’t know what the base damage for proc sets is.
It could be 1% of current damage or 99%...

Artorias24

I am kinda sure every DD will pass the 6k weapon/spell damage mark and increase the proc set damage further then you have on live.

So its more likely a buff for trials.

Coming to overland pve tanks. You can just make yourself a more Damage oriented build and still deal with every overland content there is. You dont need procs to help you there. Even sword and board can be used as dps. Just have to use damage skills instead of holding block and Hope your armor does the job.

remosito

Artorias24 wrote: »

I am kinda sure every DD will pass the 6k weapon/spell damage mark and increase the proc set damage further then you have on live.

So its more likely a buff for trials.

Coming to overland pve tanks. You can just make yourself a more Damage oriented build and still deal with every overland content there is. You dont need procs to help you there. Even sword and board can be used as dps. Just have to use damage skills instead of holding block and Hope your armor does the job.

at snail pace compared to real dps. another kick to tanks. with projected shite dps of companions being the other.

McGordon

Stop blaming PVP for nerfs. Reality is pve is as bad as pvp and it needs nerfs. People complain for good reason that pve is too easy. Back in the day it sometimes took a day to clear dungeon, now even on vet I could teach my cat to do it.

James-Wayne

Firstmep wrote: »

Really? My stamplar with no weapon damage sets easily gets 9-10k in organised pve groups.

If anything this a pretty nice buff.

Exactly in organised groups you can but for Solo PvE builds they got completely destroyed because you dont reach any of those values. I don't need to see the PTS to know which way this is going for Solo players.

Proc sets should be called Group sets instead because they are not used for Solo/Hybrid builds anymore.

Elo106

I see issues in PvP as well the required 5,478 Weapon damage is easy to get, 5,478 Spell damage on the other hand a lot harder. Some Mag classes had to rely on procs for damage while stam did not have to. Now Stam seems even stronger?

We will have to test on PTS ofc I just hope this time they listen to feedback before it goes to live

Canned_Apples

~5700 WD with clever alchemist
But we don’t know how it’ll scale.

CA+ malacath+proc weapon+proc set-1 piece monster set.
No defense no sustain

GreenHere

Well, so much for being able to use fun proc sets on my tank to make solo PvE questing less tedious, I guess...

RIP my Ashen Grip + Grothdarr DK fire-breather build. It was fun while it lasted! Guess I better hurry up and get some questing in before the nerfs. :P


Really wish they could have found a better way to balance things than kicking tanks in the nuts YET AGAIN.
I am, however, 0% surprised


Also, the numbers they picked... oof. Weapon Damage can easily soar past 7K for most builds, while the same isn't generally true for Spell Damage; and Max Magicka can get a lot higher a lot more easily than Max Stam... I swear, sometimes it almost seems like they don't even play their own game. How are the same numbers equally applicable to totally different build types? Am I alone in thinking mDPS/sDPS/Healer/Tank specs need different goalposts?

universal_wrath

Firstmep wrote: »

Really? My stamplar with no weapon damage sets easily gets 9-10k in organised pve groups.

If anything this a pretty nice buff.

So, i need to be in orgnised group only to use proc sets? Many people are not part of orgnized groups and will be affected heavliy by this change. My magsorc barely reaching 2.7k when using 2 procs in PvE in dungeons or solo. I can get my spell damage up to 3.5k max if I run 1 proc set. My healing wearing twilight remedy barely have 32k max magicka.

It is very hard sometimes to go full damage or max resouces as some skills scale with both or one. You build for max damage but you have 1 or 2 skills scale of max stamina that you use like power of the light. You need to invest in both stats to reach an optimal build. Also, crititcal chance is a thing that when you spec for can reduces you max resources or offensive stats. Having proc sets works in a similar way only adds to tge problem.

Canned_Apples

GreenHere wrote: »

Also, the numbers they picked... oof. Weapon Damage can easily soar past 7K for most builds, while the same isn't generally true for Spell Damage; and Max Magicka can get a lot higher a lot more easily than Max Stam... I swear, sometimes it almost seems like they don't even play their own game. How are the same numbers equally applicable to totally different build types? Am I alone in thinking mDPS/sDPS/Healer/Tank specs need different goalposts?

No they can’t.
You can BARELY hit just over 6k with a proc. + clever alchemist +all fighters guild skills

master_vanargand

I think the cap needs to be raised more.
For example, "8000 weapon or magic damage", "40000 stamina or magicka", "50000 health", "33000 armor".

Jodynn

Don't Doomsay until you test it mate

GreenHere

Canned_Apples wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Also, the numbers they picked... oof. Weapon Damage can easily soar past 7K for most builds, while the same isn't generally true for Spell Damage; and Max Magicka can get a lot higher a lot more easily than Max Stam... I swear, sometimes it almost seems like they don't even play their own game. How are the same numbers equally applicable to totally different build types? Am I alone in thinking mDPS/sDPS/Healer/Tank specs need different goalposts?

No they can’t.
You can BARELY hit just over 6k with a proc. + clever alchemist +all fighters guild skills

I assume you misunderstood me, and are thinking of Spell Damage builds... though you said FG skills, so I'm not too sure...

But yes, they can. Here's a build that's not even particularly built for high Weapon Damage I was goofing around with that's over 7K totally solo. Just two button presses gets you that high there. Maybe meta builds that content creators tend to publish aren't high WD like this, since they tend to favor crit, pen, Bloodthirsty trait, etc., but this build almost accidentally has more Weapon Damage than most any Mag DPS build of mine has Spell Damage.

And the gap tends to widen in-group, where things like Powerful Assault or SPC give Weapon & Spell Damage equally, but WD is just plain amplified more in stam builds due to passives.

For comparison, here's a roughly similar mag build that I use to do decent DPS while boosting allies' damage, akin to the Kinras's stam build above. I know it's not apples-to-apples, but you can see the large gulf between their respective WD & SD; and overall, that's the norm in my experience.


Specific numbers aside, the trend remains -- It's just plain easier (and generally more effective) to stack Weapon Damage than Spell Damage, and it's often easier (and more feasible) to get more Max Magicka than Max Stamina. They don't compare equivalently, and I'm guessing that's going to make Proc Set balancing... interesting, at the very least.
Unbalanced, is my guess/fear.

Canned_Apples

Neither of those builds would be effective and you’re being restricted to one class for each.

This is all pointless considering we don’t know how the sets will scale and it’s only the first patch.

GreenHere

Canned_Apples wrote: »

Neither of those builds would be effective and you’re being restricted to one class for each.

This is all pointless considering we don’t know how the sets will scale and it’s only the first patch.

Cool. Good talk.

universal_wrath

GreenHere wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Also, the numbers they picked... oof. Weapon Damage can easily soar past 7K for most builds, while the same isn't generally true for Spell Damage; and Max Magicka can get a lot higher a lot more easily than Max Stam... I swear, sometimes it almost seems like they don't even play their own game. How are the same numbers equally applicable to totally different build types? Am I alone in thinking mDPS/sDPS/Healer/Tank specs need different goalposts?

No they can’t.
You can BARELY hit just over 6k with a proc. + clever alchemist +all fighters guild skills

I assume you misunderstood me, and are thinking of Spell Damage builds... though you said FG skills, so I'm not too sure...

But yes, they can. Here's a build that's not even particularly built for high Weapon Damage I was goofing around with that's over 7K totally solo. Just two button presses gets you that high there. Maybe meta builds that content creators tend to publish aren't high WD like this, since they tend to favor crit, pen, Bloodthirsty trait, etc., but this build almost accidentally has more Weapon Damage than most any Mag DPS build of mine has Spell Damage.

And the gap tends to widen in-group, where things like Powerful Assault or SPC give Weapon & Spell Damage equally, but WD is just plain amplified more in stam builds due to passives.

For comparison, here's a roughly similar mag build that I use to do decent DPS while boosting allies' damage, akin to the Kinras's stam build above. I know it's not apples-to-apples, but you can see the large gulf between their respective WD & SD; and overall, that's the norm in my experience.


Specific numbers aside, the trend remains -- It's just plain easier (and generally more effective) to stack Weapon Damage than Spell Damage, and it's often easier (and more feasible) to get more Max Magicka than Max Stamina. They don't compare equivalently, and I'm guessing that's going to make Proc Set balancing... interesting, at the very least.
Unbalanced, is my guess/fear.

Interesting builds to say the least. Stam has more weapon damage and mag more magicka. This only adds more points to the problems as it enforce stam to spec for damade and mag for support in PvP and PvE and anything else is bad.

I how far can you go if you add in 1 or 2 proc sets for both builds? Csn you maintain similar or close values?

SirAndy

Masel wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Really? My stamplar with no weapon damage sets easily gets 9-10k in organised pve groups.
If anything this a pretty nice buff.

Yup, this. In pve you can get there pretty easily

And that's why the "Class Representative" program was such a failure.
Your definition of PvE clearly does not match what the average player base considers PvE.

I'd like to see logs from ZOS showing the majority of PvE players getting 10k weapon/spell damage.
Or 5k. Or 3k.

MoreTune

Does this affect Powerful Assault? If so is it also based on max weapon/spell dmg

GreenHere

universal_wrath wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Also, the numbers they picked... oof. Weapon Damage can easily soar past 7K for most builds, while the same isn't generally true for Spell Damage; and Max Magicka can get a lot higher a lot more easily than Max Stam... I swear, sometimes it almost seems like they don't even play their own game. How are the same numbers equally applicable to totally different build types? Am I alone in thinking mDPS/sDPS/Healer/Tank specs need different goalposts?

No they can’t.
You can BARELY hit just over 6k with a proc. + clever alchemist +all fighters guild skills

I assume you misunderstood me, and are thinking of Spell Damage builds... though you said FG skills, so I'm not too sure...

But yes, they can. Here's a build that's not even particularly built for high Weapon Damage I was goofing around with that's over 7K totally solo. Just two button presses gets you that high there. Maybe meta builds that content creators tend to publish aren't high WD like this, since they tend to favor crit, pen, Bloodthirsty trait, etc., but this build almost accidentally has more Weapon Damage than most any Mag DPS build of mine has Spell Damage.

And the gap tends to widen in-group, where things like Powerful Assault or SPC give Weapon & Spell Damage equally, but WD is just plain amplified more in stam builds due to passives.

For comparison, here's a roughly similar mag build that I use to do decent DPS while boosting allies' damage, akin to the Kinras's stam build above. I know it's not apples-to-apples, but you can see the large gulf between their respective WD & SD; and overall, that's the norm in my experience.


Specific numbers aside, the trend remains -- It's just plain easier (and generally more effective) to stack Weapon Damage than Spell Damage, and it's often easier (and more feasible) to get more Max Magicka than Max Stamina. They don't compare equivalently, and I'm guessing that's going to make Proc Set balancing... interesting, at the very least.
Unbalanced, is my guess/fear.

Interesting builds to say the least. Stam has more weapon damage and mag more magicka. This only adds more points to the problems as it enforce stam to spec for damade and mag for support in PvP and PvE and anything else is bad.

I how far can you go if you add in 1 or 2 proc sets for both builds? Csn you maintain similar or close values?

Yeah, I wondered the same thing @universal_wrath . Here's a stam build that I think is pretty fair for average PvE use. It's not min/maxed to cheese Weapon Damage super high, but it does intentionally boost it up some. Disclaimer: I didn't put a heck of a lot of effort into making this, just kinda slapped together a stat-proc set and a damage-proc set. It's not meant to be meta, but it's the kind of thing that suits the discussion for illustration's sake.

Here's a comparable...ish mag build. If we're just talking about Weapon vs Spell Damage, you can see how WD on stam builds has the obvious edge. Even "cheesing" it more with this build (notice the Nirnhoned Greatsword on a mag build? and the multiple Mages Guild skills?) it took more effort/sacrifice to bring the Spell Damage up to match that Briarheart + Venomous Smite combo's Weapon Damage. And the Balorgh set isn't proc'd in either build, in case anyone's wondering; it's just the set that has equal WD/SD bonuses... and it's the first one alphabetically. These are just sort of off-the-top-of-my-head builds, but I think they're a fair enough example.



I can make builds that meet the criteria for maintaining (or amplifying) proc-sets' efficacy, but for the most part I wouldn't want to. I get that my play style isn't the universal norm or anything, but... For builds I want proc sets to work in, it's generally because they have low damage/stats; and for builds where I want more damage (and/or stats), I'm not generally using damage procs.

The PvP scene may benefit from this more (I wouldn't much know/care, tbh), but in general for PvE I'm thinking this is a bit of a downer at first blush. I'm eager to see how drastic the scaling really is once the PTS goes live.

If I'm reading the writing on the wall correctly, low-damage builds (tanks, hybrids, low-skill players, etc.) are getting their "decent damage in a pinch" builds nerfed in a not-insignificant way. Time will tell, I suppose.

WrathOfInnos

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Really? My stamplar with no weapon damage sets easily gets 9-10k in organised pve groups.

If anything this a pretty nice buff.

Yup, this. In pve you can get there pretty easily

Can mag characters do that too? My numbers on my mag DD are not even close to the number needed to reach the numbers we get on live.

@SidraWillowsky Yes, it's possible to hit the proc cap spell damage. My magden without a Berserker glyph has about 5.9k spell damage in trials. Obviously that relies on group buffs like Minor Sorcery, Courage and Powerful Assault, it might be tough to achieve when solo.

YandereGirlfriend

I see some mild "L2P" and build construction problems arising again and again in this and related threads.

For "tanks" in Overland content - I'm sorry to say but being a tank in Overland content is largely pointless as mobs are simply not very dangerous. You can easily afford to slot some damage skills and you don't need 64 points into Health. You can also afford to use a pure damage set or two. You don't actually need to hold block at all times so there are plenty of opportunities to fit in damage abilities in between enemy heavy attacks.

For non-tank Overland questers - your proc sets don't really do much damage at all compared to actual abilities. Nearly all proc sets are tuned to do between 2k-3k DPS which is quite low indeed if that is what you are relying upon for your damage. You will be much better served by using your abilities as well as more stat-based damage sets. You don't even need to use light attacks or play like an elite raider to out-DPS your proc sets with abilities, just set down one or two AoE DoTs and then use your spammable skill.

For everyone - One companion at 10k DPS will already replace ALL THREE of your proc sets so you will come out miles ahead versus where you are today in overall damage if you use one.

SirAndy

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

For non-tank Overland questers - your proc sets don't really do much damage at all compared to actual abilities. Nearly all proc sets are tuned to do between 2k-3k DPS which is quite low indeed if that is what you are relying upon for your damage.

I don't know about that. The Infernal Guardian proc on my MagSorc can do 4k dps and a good 10% of my *solo* real world dps (not a dummy that doesn't fight back).

Canned_Apples

MoreTune wrote: »

Does this affect Powerful Assault? If so is it also based on max weapon/spell dmg

No, it only affects free damage and heal sets and not sets that grant stats.

stefj68

solo on pve, i don't pass 4750 weapon or spell damage on 36 toons...
so that means i will never get full potential... unless companion have a 1k buff

sure i can reach the goal, equipping 2 5 pieces sets with high weapon damage, and 2 monster pieces with weapon damage... i can reach the target, but now where to i equip the procset... everything is taken!